Episode 4: thread for spoilers and comments.

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"MarySueLlama.8136" said:I had an embarrassing amount of difficulty with escaping the Mists on the raptor, so I was pleased by the floating space raptor visuals near the end. It felt so silly and looked so cool that I didn't mind doing it over and over.I just hope the remaining human gods will do something at some point. I've been frustrated ever since Kormir nope'd out of her library - I don't understand why the PC didn't ask her who the new 6th is, in case it affects a mortal in some region of Tyria ascending to godhood and somehow disrupting the status quo there. It'd be nice to be prepared.

Deal with gods in history writing is always complicated, because in theory as Gods they can solve everything out with a snap of their fingers, but if they do, there simply is no story to tell.

It's an opportunity to please the fans of the pantheon, but at the same time a risk of not sounding something so epic, or something too easy, or "steal the protagonism" of the commander.

[Dante.1763]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@"MarySueLlama.8136" said:I had an embarrassing amount of difficulty with escaping the Mists on the raptor, so I was pleased by the floating space raptor visuals near the end. It felt so silly and looked so cool that I didn't mind doing it over and over.I just hope the remaining human gods will do something at some point. I've been frustrated ever since Kormir nope'd out of her library - I don't understand why the PC didn't ask her who the new 6th is, in case it affects a mortal in some region of Tyria ascending to godhood and somehow disrupting the status quo there. It'd be nice to be prepared.

Deal with gods in history writing is always complicated, because in theory as Gods they can solve everything out with a snap of their fingers, but if they do, there simply is no story to tell.

It's an opportunity to please the fans of the pantheon, but at the same time a risk of not sounding something so epic, or something too easy, or "steal the protagonism" of the commander.

I thought Kormir was the last of the human gods to leave Tyria, and that even if they did stay they wouldnt help fight the dragons.

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"Dante.1763" said:I thought Kormir was the last of the human gods to leave Tyria, and that even if they did stay they wouldnt help fight the dragons.

not help because was "Tyria issue", now with the big guy in the mists is a entire new thing.

[Dante.1763]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@"Dante.1763" said:I thought Kormir was the last of the human gods to leave Tyria, and that even if they did stay they wouldnt help fight the dragons.

not help because was "Tyria issue", now with the big guy in the mists is a entire new thing.

given that Kormirs temple in the mists was collapsing after she left, i dont see why theyd care if it was a mists issue either as they are from Beyond the mists, so even the mists arent their problem outside of perhaps using at as a way to transport themselves, and their human worshippers to the new world they went to find and prepare.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Dante.1763 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Dante.1763 said:I thought Kormir was the last of the human gods to leave Tyria, and that even if they did stay they wouldnt help fight the dragons.

not help because was "Tyria issue", now with the big guy in the mists is a entire new thing.

given that Kormirs temple in the mists was collapsing after she left, i dont see why theyd care if it was a mists issue either as they are from

Beyond

the mists, so even the mists arent their problem outside of perhaps using at as a way to transport themselves, and their human worshippers to the new world they went to find and prepare.

In the new map, you can summon Nenah by kneeling at the statue of Kormir in the old Chantry of Secrets. The first time you do so the dialogue is really just a "how did I get here!?" stuff, but the subsequent times, the PC tells Nenah that Kralkatorrik is in the Mists, and Nenah responds that she knows and many ghosts have been seeking sanctuary in Kormir's library sanctum.

This suggests that the demon invasion of the griffon collection was a brief thing, and things are back under control, or at least things are better.

[Dante.1763]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Dante.1763 said:I thought Kormir was the last of the human gods to leave Tyria, and that even if they did stay they wouldnt help fight the dragons.

not help because was "Tyria issue", now with the big guy in the mists is a entire new thing.

given that Kormirs temple in the mists was collapsing after she left, i dont see why theyd care if it was a mists issue either as they are from

Beyond

the mists, so even the mists arent their problem outside of perhaps using at as a way to transport themselves, and their human worshippers to the new world they went to find and prepare.

In the new map, you can summon Nenah by kneeling at the statue of Kormir in the old Chantry of Secrets. The first time you do so the dialogue is really just a "how did I get here!?" stuff, but the subsequent times, the PC tells Nenah that Kralkatorrik is in the Mists, and Nenah responds that she knows and many ghosts have been seeking sanctuary in Kormir's library sanctum.

This suggests that the demon invasion of the griffon collection was a brief thing, and things are back under control, or at least things are better.

That is interesting i had no idea about that, though it doesnt change to much, but im still wanting to know if the gods really care about the mists anymore. Nothing ive been able to find and nothing i remember specifically says that the gods need the mists, or that the gods currently reside in them.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Dante.1763 said:I thought Kormir was the last of the human gods to leave Tyria, and that even if they did stay they wouldnt help fight the dragons.

not help because was "Tyria issue", now with the big guy in the mists is a entire new thing.

given that Kormirs temple in the mists was collapsing after she left, i dont see why theyd care if it was a mists issue either as they are from

Beyond

the mists, so even the mists arent their problem outside of perhaps using at as a way to transport themselves, and their human worshippers to the new world they went to find and prepare.

In the new map, you can summon Nenah by kneeling at the statue of Kormir in the old Chantry of Secrets. The first time you do so the dialogue is really just a "how did I get here!?" stuff, but the subsequent times, the PC tells Nenah that Kralkatorrik is in the Mists, and Nenah responds that she knows and many ghosts have been seeking sanctuary in Kormir's library sanctum.

This suggests that the demon invasion of the griffon collection was a brief thing, and things are back under control, or at least things are better.

That is interesting i had no idea about that, though it doesnt change to much, but im still wanting to know if the gods really care about the mists anymore. Nothing ive been able to find and nothing i remember specifically says that the gods

need

the mists, or that the gods currently reside in them.

The Mists is, literally, the entire multiverse. If they care about their own existence, they care about the Mists.

Whether they care about their (former?) realms, the afterlives of Tyria, is another story. But Garden of the Gods suggests that the Six haven't abandoned Tyrians, just Tyria, and are looking for a new world to move humanity (maybe other races) to in order to escape the Elder Dragons. If Kralkatorrik is able to crossing to other worlds, that puts them and their plan in danger.

Now, whether or not they know about Kralkatorrik, that's another matter entirely. Kralkatorrik is, by all appearances, still near Tyria within the Mists. So his influence isn't likely to be that widespread, and the Mists is nigh infinite in practicality, what with being at least three alternate realities of full universes.

[Dante.1763]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Dante.1763 said:I thought Kormir was the last of the human gods to leave Tyria, and that even if they did stay they wouldnt help fight the dragons.

not help because was "Tyria issue", now with the big guy in the mists is a entire new thing.

given that Kormirs temple in the mists was collapsing after she left, i dont see why theyd care if it was a mists issue either as they are from

Beyond

the mists, so even the mists arent their problem outside of perhaps using at as a way to transport themselves, and their human worshippers to the new world they went to find and prepare.

In the new map, you can summon Nenah by kneeling at the statue of Kormir in the old Chantry of Secrets. The first time you do so the dialogue is really just a "how did I get here!?" stuff, but the subsequent times, the PC tells Nenah that Kralkatorrik is in the Mists, and Nenah responds that she knows and many ghosts have been seeking sanctuary in Kormir's library sanctum.

This suggests that the demon invasion of the griffon collection was a brief thing, and things are back under control, or at least things are better.

That is interesting i had no idea about that, though it doesnt change to much, but im still wanting to know if the gods really care about the mists anymore. Nothing ive been able to find and nothing i remember specifically says that the gods

need

the mists, or that the gods currently reside in them.

The Mists is, literally, the entire multiverse. If they care about their own existence, they care about the Mists.

Whether they care about their (former?) realms, the afterlives of Tyria, is another story. But

Garden of the Gods

suggests that the Six haven't abandoned Tyrians, just Tyria, and are looking for a new world to move humanity (maybe other races) to in order to escape the Elder Dragons. If Kralkatorrik is able to crossing to other worlds, that puts them and their plan in danger.

Now, whether or not they know about Kralkatorrik, that's another matter entirely. Kralkatorrik is, by all appearances, still near Tyria within the Mists. So his influence isn't likely to be

that

widespread, and the Mists is nigh infinite in practicality, what with being at least three alternate realities of full universes.

Right, that makes sense. I knew about the Garden of the Gods stuff(though i doubt they will move other races given that A. No other races worship them. and B. The other races are native to Tyria.). Answers my question as much as is possible given what we currently know though, so thank you.

[zealex.9410]

@Yannir.4132 said:AFAIR, Kralkatorrik entering the Mists is by itself pretty lore-breaking. Aren't ED's supposed to be so fundamentally connected to Tyria that they CANNOT even leave the planet? Especially since Balthazar wasn't even supposed to have any god magic left in him, and all his power came from the Bloodstone and the 2 parts of ED magic he consumed?While I think the story on the character level was very good(I've been left wanting more on the previous episodes), the larger plot with Kralkatorrik has a ton of holes in it.

I dont think we were ever told that balthazar was completely dried of magic before rytlock freed him. I mean in the cutscene it was balthazar who relight rytlock's sword and opened the portal back to tyria. Also ED's are vital for the planet, the opposite isnt necessarily the case. As for kralkatoric being able to leave tyria and go into the mists i assume thats thanks to balthazar's magic since the gods are being able to travel the mists and open gates to go in and out of it.

[lakdav.3694]

So question: How does the Mists relate to the All? I was under the impression that the All (Tyria the planet and its cyclical magical structure with the EDs as balancers) is within the Mists. Tyria is a place of relative stability in the chaos of the Mists bound by rules and a sort of automatic mechanism (call it the Eternal Alchemy?), with the Elder Dragons being the greatest most important maintainers of balance, ruled by instinct to consume and sleep.

The problem in Tyria with magic is that it is overflowing due to two dragons being killed (in an already magically ripe world) and the Bloodstone exploding. There is just too much magic here. Kralkatorrik ate up much of it, as is his instinct to do so, then found a way to leave the All/Tyra and go to the Mists. Technically he took some of the overflowing magic away from Tyria, incidently still acting as a balancer of the All in that small regard, but as his instincts govern him, he starts to devour magic from the Mists itself, becoming a multiverse-threat. (On that note it would be interesting to see this reflected in WvW perhaps?)

On the other hand, Kralk's counterside in the All, the Deep Sea Dragon is still in Tyria (we suppose), so balance is bound to topple here as well soon. Curious though how Kralkatorrik still seems to be interested in Tyria, compared to the infinite magic of the Mists. In some fundamental level he is probably still linked to Tyria that keeps him around.

[draxynnic.3719]

On the topic of dragon weaknesses:

My impression is that each dragon is vulnerable to its own power. Earlier in this thread, for instance, it was cited that Zhaitan's weakness was a reliance on specialised minions, but Zhaitan isn't the only Elder Dragon that has specialised minions that play a key role in its strategy. Taking out the Eyes and Mouth certainly weakened it, but I don't think that was its key weakness.

Instead, something which is unfortunately easy to miss unless you play the right parts of the personal story is that Gorr's research involved drawing power from Zhaitan's minions, altering it in some fashion to weaponise it, and firing it back at the minions. If I recall correctly, it's implied somewhere that the weaponry of the Glory of Tyria was, in part, based on Gorr's research. So the weakness that was actually used to kill Zhaitan was turning its own power back on it... similar to how Mordremoth's weakness was using its own power against it (going into its mind and destroying it from within) and Kralkatorrik's is its own flesh and blood (either literally, in the case of the spear, or metaphorically, in the case of descendants).

Despite Taimi's conclusion about using Primordus and Jormag against one another, there is an indication in Edge of Destiny that Primordus might have a similar "own power is its weakness" thing:

There's a scene where Destiny's Edge is trying to kill the Destroyer of Life, a powerful champion of Primordus. Pretty much everything they try to use against it, including cold attacks, bounce off without effect, but it's firing arrows tipped with something the book calls "primordial fire". At some point, Eir gets the idea of grabbing one of the DoL's own arrows and firing it back: her bow burns up in the process, but the arrow is effective and causes the DoL to explode.

Which does, interestingly, have the ramification that if Braham's bow is now enchanted with primordial fire, it might be Primordus' weakness as well as Jormag's. Furthermore, if Konig's theory is right (that killing an Elder Dragon with its own power is somehow safer than killing one with its opposing power) then Braham's bow might actually be better used against Primordus than Kralkatorrik.

[Mahou.3924]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Yilia.7509 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

Then the real question is, how much

Dragon Ball Z effect

they intend to apply on Kralkatorrik and in us?

He has already gained special powers by simply absorbing Balthazar's magic. And now in the mists the possibilities are endless.

If Its go too far, it seems clear to me, the intention of bringing the gods back on the scene, perhaps not directly, solving everything in a snap, perhaps given a "gift," or a "magic artifact.", its only way to deal with a supermassive demi-god Kralkatorrik without apply

Dragonball Z effect

on us or in Aurene: Bringing back in the scene, entities that are already superpowered.

I'm not that deep into the lore, but I'm wondering about it as well, especially if A.Net goes with the "the next villain must be stronger than the former" trope-thingy. Given how beefed-up and with the mist-traveling power Kralk has become, the other ED trio would eventually be so strong where - with exaggeration - a sneeze could explode the world, unless the PC drags/baits each Elder Dragon into the Mists (or a pocket dimension) when/if they inherit Kralk's mist-traveling ability, so that Tyria wouldn't be affected from the ensuing collateral damage of the battle. Ignoring for a moment if that'd be realistic or makes sense at all. We have Aurene as a replacement, but that still leaves the other three, unless they would be put into a deep slumber repeatedly after a set period of time.

[Bast.7253]

I wonder what Blish was going to say when he mentioned Kralk just before we left. “Kralk, he’s...” mike cuts off.

Seems that was a hint at something important that we don’t know yet.

Would even the combined night of the 6 be able to compete with Kralk in this state? Perhaps it will take us plus them?

Other than the staff of the mists I’m not sure what we could do that would really put us on par with him by the time we fight him? I feel like placing him as this almost planet eating space monstrosity makes it difficult to really gauge is power level right now. Because either he is so strong that it’s impossoble to imagine us defeating him as mere mortals, or it will feel like a joke when we do defeat him because it won’t make sense?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:I wonder what Blish was going to say when he mentioned Kralk just before we left. “Kralk, he’s...” mike cuts off.

Seems that was a hint at something important that we don’t know yet.More likely he was just in sheer shock over Kralkatorrik's massive size and presence.

[Dante.1763]

@Mahou.3924 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Yilia.7509 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

Then the real question is, how much

Dragon Ball Z effect

they intend to apply on Kralkatorrik and in us?

He has already gained special powers by simply absorbing Balthazar's magic. And now in the mists the possibilities are endless.

If Its go too far, it seems clear to me, the intention of bringing the gods back on the scene, perhaps not directly, solving everything in a snap, perhaps given a "gift," or a "magic artifact.", its only way to deal with a supermassive demi-god Kralkatorrik without apply

Dragonball Z effect

on us or in Aurene: Bringing back in the scene, entities that are already superpowered.

I'm not that deep into the lore, but I'm wondering about it as well, especially if A.Net goes with the "the next villain must be stronger than the former" trope-thingy. Given how beefed-up and with the mist-traveling power Kralk has become, the other ED trio would eventually be so strong where - with exaggeration - a sneeze could explode the world, unless the PC drags/baits each Elder Dragon into the Mists (or a pocket dimension) when/if they inherit Kralk's mist-traveling ability, so that Tyria wouldn't be affected from the ensuing collateral damage of the battle. Ignoring for a moment if that'd be realistic or makes sense at all. We have Aurene as a replacement, but that still leaves the other three, unless they would be put into a deep slumber repeatedly after a set period of time.

well, if the plan works and Aurene replaces Kralkatoric that power(his specific power) and even if she absorbs a little of the other two that power, wont get sent off to the next ED (of which two out of three are already sleeping again) so they wont have that ability to go between the realms unless all the EDs can by default and they just havent done so before this episode.

[Tails.9372]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:with Kralkatorrik as powerful as he is, with no possible combination of factors available to us enabling us to win, as seen via Aurene's visions, really the Gods are the only sensible answer to this story conumdrumNot really, there are all kinds of weird s**t living in the mists. He might even get off-screened by a more powerful trans-dimensional being if it gets annoyed enough to bother.

[JTHMRulez.9378]

@Tails.9372 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:with Kralkatorrik as powerful as he is, with no possible combination of factors available to us enabling us to win, as seen via Aurene's visions, really the Gods are the only sensible answer to this story conumdrumNot really, there are all kinds of weird s**t living in the mists. He might even get off-screened by a more powerful trans-dimensional being if it gets annoyed enough to brother.

Such beings are probably already retconned to non-existence or hand-waved off. If something in the Mists will stop Kralkatorrik, it will be the Six, not some other random monster.

[Lucius.2140]

@Yilia.7509 said:

Such beings are probably already retconned to non-existence or hand-waved off. If something in the Mists will stop Kralkatorrik, it will be the Six, not some other random monster.

If they can, he has:His own power and size.Nearly all the base power of Balthasar (after been drained of magic and mantle).All the power he got from Zaithan and Mordremoth deaths.Nearly all the power Primordous and Jormag got from Zaithan and Mordremoth.Nearly all the power Primordous and Jormag consumed after awakening (without considering the one they got from fellow elder dragons).Nearly 1 bloodstone entire power.

He literally is 3 elder dragons at the same time + the base essence of a god being + nearly one bloodstone.Also if you remember it, Balthasar didn't go 1vs1 with Kralk even with all the power he got.

It was stated the elder dragons were on par with the gods, Kormir said they concluded that if both factions were to fight wherever the gods or the elder dragons would have won, Tyria would have been destroyed (the gods would have won because they can gank elder dragons 6 vs 1 and consume their magic instead of let the other ED feed with it).

Even if he is three and half elder dragons vs 5 gods, he has all the power concentrated and the interactions between each of this types of magic, plus his feeding of the mist.

[Lucius.2140]

@"JTHMRulez.9378" said:Such beings are probably already retconned to non-existence or hand-waved off. If something in the Mists will stop Kralkatorrik, it will be the Six, not some other random monster.

In Hall of Chains Desmina talk about the "Ancients" that were interested in sealing Dhum with a stronger seal (if is stronger for real is better than the one used by Grenth/The Six).

[JTHMRulez.9378]

@Lucius.2140 said:

@"JTHMRulez.9378" said:Such beings are probably already retconned to non-existence or hand-waved off. If something in the Mists will stop Kralkatorrik, it will be the Six, not some other random monster.

In Hall of Chains Desmina talk about the "Ancients" that were interested in sealing Dhum with a stronger seal (if is stronger for real is better than the one used by Grenth/The Six).

We don't really know anything about them though. We can even guess if they were the Gods or not, probably not, but even if that's the case it doesn't matter because we don't know if their seal would be stronger because they would be stronger than the Gods or for any other reasons. Again, since Kralkatorrik's mere presence in the Mists is threatening to destroy reality itself I doubt we'll see any individual stronger than him there (That haven't destroyed reality already)

[Lucius.2140]

@JTHMRulez.9378 said:Kralk is eating the energy of the mists, that's why he is a threat, him been powerfull make it difficult to fix it. Plus the mist are likely infinite, there's no way all beings of power will know about him been there.

I agree that the ancients can be better doing seals (if is true the seal is stronger).

Point aside, with Anet closing gw lose ends as fast as they could, Balthasar brother can end up been food for Kralk... hope not but Gleam died so fast.

[Tails.9372]

@JTHMRulez.9378 said:since Kralkatorrik's mere presence in the Mists is threatening to destroy reality itself I doubt we'll see any individual stronger than him thereWell that doesn't make any sense.

@JTHMRulez.9378 said:(That haven't destroyed reality already)Just because something is strong doesn't mean that it's malevolent (and/or cares about lesser beings living on a random "isle"), the "gods" themselves were just some beings wandering through the mists and who knows what else is out there. We don't even know if the Six are particularry strong for what they are, we've already seen some other beings who are at least comparable so I guess not.

[zealex.9410]

@Tails.9372 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:with Kralkatorrik as powerful as he is, with no possible combination of factors available to us enabling us to win, as seen via Aurene's visions, really the Gods are the only sensible answer to this story conumdrumNot really, there are all kinds of weird s**t living in the mists. He might even get off-screened by a more powerful trans-dimensional being if it gets annoyed enough to bother.

Colosus vs kralk. Anet is going full Pacific rim up in this bitch.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@JTHMRulez.9378 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:with Kralkatorrik as powerful as he is, with no possible combination of factors available to us enabling us to win, as seen via Aurene's visions, really the Gods are the only sensible answer to this story conumdrumNot really, there are all kinds of weird s**t living in the mists. He might even get off-screened by a more powerful trans-dimensional being if it gets annoyed enough to brother.

Such beings are probably already retconned to non-existence or hand-waved off. If something in the Mists will stop Kralkatorrik, it will be the Six, not some other random monster.

Not really. The only 'Mists beings' we've ever really been told about are demons, spirits, nightmares (aka evil, twisted, spirits), and gods. While demons have been downplayed quite a bit, they still exist in lore, they're just not the major focus of the story unlike in GW1.

@Lucius.2140 said:

@JTHMRulez.9378 said:Such beings are probably already retconned to non-existence or hand-waved off. If something in the Mists will stop Kralkatorrik, it will be the Six, not some other random monster.

In Hall of Chains Desmina talk about the "Ancients" that were interested in sealing Dhum with a stronger seal (if is stronger for real is better than the one used by Grenth/The Six).

Wasn't she just referring to the seven reapers? (who wouldn't really be much more ancient than herself tbh)

[JTHMRulez.9378]

@Lucius.2140 said:

@JTHMRulez.9378 said:Kralk is eating the energy of the mists, that's why he is a threat, him been powerfull make it difficult to fix it. Plus the mist are likely infinite, there's no way all beings of power will know about him been there.

Indeed. But what I am trying to say is that certainly is there is any being with a power comparable or greater than his, by any means and logic, they would stop Kralkatorrik at the first chance they got.- The effects of him eating the magic of The Mists is none other than reality (Not Tyria, all of reality) being destroyed.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@JTHMRulez.9378 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:with Kralkatorrik as powerful as he is, with no possible combination of factors available to us enabling us to win, as seen via Aurene's visions, really the Gods are the only sensible answer to this story conumdrumNot really, there are all kinds of weird s**t living in the mists. He might even get off-screened by a more powerful trans-dimensional being if it gets annoyed enough to brother.

Such beings are probably already retconned to non-existence or hand-waved off. If something in the Mists will stop Kralkatorrik, it will be the Six, not some other random monster.

Not really. The only 'Mists beings' we've ever really been told about are demons, spirits, nightmares (aka evil, twisted, spirits), and gods. While demons have been downplayed quite a bit, they still exist in lore, they're just not the major focus of the story unlike in

I am aware of Demons existence, they are just not comparable to Kralkatorrik in terms of power so I did not compare them.