Remove QuickFire and add heal on mantra use

[Brutaly.6257]

There are some anomalies when Ashes of the Just is applied to allies that make FB have some serious messed up dps.

In our traits we have two final traits that improve dps (QuickFire and LoreMaster) and no trait that seriously improve mantra use and support with mantras.

My suggestion is that QuickFire is removed (would make the dps anomalies a lot smaller) and is replaced with a trait that do two or three things

1. Add an aoe heal when using a mantra (500 per use??) that scales really well with healing power. (this would improve our capabilities to heal)
2. Add increased range on the cone (600) and aoe (300) on the mantra. (this would make it possible to actually hit the team at all.
3. Either increase the regeneration of ammo or increase the ammo with one charge. (this would increase survivability in combination with the first paragraph.)

This would improve a lot that is missing in FB.

Anet still has to fix a proper ranged weapon (hotfix staff making everything have 1200 range and making it possible to move while using empower) because FB isnt a frontliner at all.

[Mimterest.4639]

This would be a really good fix! I mean, they can't just make staff 1200 range as it is, the first skill would need a complete rework honestly. Which I would love because as it is I don't even use staff anymore.. and I'm a player that uses all weapons as the need arises. (For specific builds, or if I need some more defense I swap in a focus offhand for example, or for fights you need cc I can always bring a Longbow to break breakbars, or hammer to cc weaker mobs, and so on. I use as much of the guardian's kit as I can)

But other than this, mantras are lacking and the support aspect of Firebrand is also seriously lacking, and the range increase would help a lot. I also think making mantras heal yourself and allies would be amazing. Or if Anet absolutely has to go with the self-sacrifice theme, why not just allies but much stronger than mesmer's trait? For us the initial cast of mantras already does nothing and their range is weak so our mantras feel significantly weaker. I think increasing the ammo regeneration rate would also be a good fix, because as it is now almost none of the final mantra charges really feel worth it when you compare them to mesmer's mantras with their short or non-existent cooldowns. The main drawback of mantras was always going to be that you need to prepare them, right?

I also think Tome of Courage and being in tomes in general needs some help, maybe a stack of stability and protection every 3 seconds while using a tome since you're completely locked out of most offensive capability when using F2 or F3, and you still sometimes have to wait for cooldowns if you want to use your stronger skills again. So you just stand there waiting for the tome cooldown to not waste your final page on something weak, and you can get bursted down easily if you're already out of energy.

With some amount of healing power, with Tome of Resolve I can't even outheal a single non-veteran NPC from LWS3 or PoF when already injured from a bigger fight, since I have no form of defense while using the healing tome. It feels awful, I already used my heal, killed all this mob's buddies, but for example yesterday some mercenary pistoleer just kept gunning at me and I was low on health so I popped the tome, tried my best to heal myself at 455 healing power (outdoor build so why would I run full healing power?), and ended up losing my last 5k health because I simply couldn't keep myself alive using the tome. It wasn't even a veteran! It was probably bad play from me as well, but I mean c'mon. The base healing values for Tome of Resolve are much too low for it to be worth the long cooldown. The PoF launch healing power scaling seems good though.

[Hellios.4108]

I really like this, quickfire feels clunky.

They really need to change it, as you say, or reework the effect. The firebrand trait line is full of weak choices, or you go tomes or quickness spam, we need something for our main mechanic, mantras, useful in pve.

[quaniesan.8497]

Dang, I thought Loremaster is the go-to trait. Never thought QuickFire is even worth considering.

[CptAurellian.9537]

And if the devs don't want to kill Quickfire, Stoic Demeanor is another trait that could (or rather should) be replaced by something useful like a mantra trait.

[Noah.4756]

@Brutaly.6257 said:There are some anomalies when Ashes of the Just is applied to allies that make FB have some serious messed up dps.

In our traits we have two final traits that improve dps (QuickFire and LoreMaster) and no trait that seriously improve mantra use and support with mantras.

My suggestion is that QuickFire is removed (would make the dps anomalies a lot smaller) and is replaced with a trait that do two or three things

Removing Quickfire essentially drops the Firebrand's DPS below 30k. Edit. Nevermind. You would still have Ashes of the Just from ToJ #5 so it's not a bad suggestion actually.

1. Add an aoe heal when using a mantra (500 per use??) that scales really well with healing power. (this would improve our capabilities to heal)
2. Add increased range on the cone (600) and aoe (300) on the mantra. (this would make it possible to actually hit the team at all.
3. Either increase the regeneration of ammo or increase the ammo with one charge. (this would increase survivability in combination with the first paragraph.)

This would improve a lot that is missing in FB.

Anet still has to fix a proper ranged weapon (hotfix staff making everything have 1200 range and making it possible to move while using empower) because FB isnt a frontliner at all.

Personally, I've been advocating for a change to Stoic Demeanor (and Weighty Terms). The CC skills are grossly overestimated with regards to their effectiveness but I feel like they are made specifically with PvP in mind. These two traits need to be reworked though in order to be viable. Suggestion 2 & 3 would fit in there perfectly.

[Brutaly.6257]

Yeah the entire top row is just filled with bad choices.

I think it deserves a thread on its own tbh.

Maybe mobility traits in the top row, quickness and mantra traits in center and tome traits in the bottom.

[Brutaly.6257]

Ashes of just is still in the tome, add to that if QF is removed.

I have no idea here but is 30k damage low for a char that can give out over 20 aegis in less than 13 seconds? Raiding isnt my forte so it is an honest question.

[Noah.4756]

Yeah. It could work actually when ToJ 5 remains unchanged. The Firebrand's DPS would still be close to 40k. Dragonhunter (Berserker stats) was able to get around 33k-37k depending on the situation. Aegis is pretty much useless in raids though, unless you use it to keep up Unscathed Defender trait. ToR and ToC are not that useful during fights in raids since you give up on all your damage. At least a Druid brings something useful (Grace of the Lands) to boost the squad while its in Celestial Avatar.

[Garimeth.8725]

Posted from another thread:

@Garimeth.8725 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Garimeth.8725 said:

@Sorin Noroku.5342 said:If a nerf was to come to firebrand, I see it in the form of nerf to AotJ. Changing the active stacks from 3 to 2, and the trait stacks from 2 to 1, would nerf the damage enough to bring it into line with other dps classes, without outright killing it.

See I would just make it so the cooldown was to the target, not the firebrand's application. So any given player can only benefit from AotJ once during the cooldown period. This accomplishes two things. First, it eliminates any problem from stacking firebrands in a PVE setting. Second, it let's the firebrand in open world pve or wvw give out alot more quickfire if they want to blow their CDs, because different people would be benefitting from it each time.

And why is stacking firebrands a bad thing? This change would hard limit them to 2 per squad in raids, regardless of builds. Even support and dps firebrand would compete for the same spot.

Actually, it might even be one spot, because if Ashes runs out of targets, it would start affecting the other subsquad.

That's not true, it would only be for the dps firebrand as they have the condition stats to get the most out of it - the other firebrand, if there is one, could still be support,. e AotJ works just as well, if not better, using quickfire if your goal is use it every 10 seconds. I can get that just using mantras, heals, or shouts without ever pulling out my tome.

As far as why stacking FBs is bad...

@RabbitUp.8294 said:After you get your 3 supports (cPS, chrono, druid), you have 2 slots for dps. Firebrand currently is by far the best dps in the game.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:And why is stacking firebrands a bad thing? This change would hard limit them to 2 per squad in raids, regardless of builds. Even support and dps firebrand would compete for the same spot.

How is it good for every raid squad to be cPS, Chrono, druid, and 2 FB?

My proposed change would still leave FB as a very competitive DPS position in any content, better than now in wvw actually, while incentivizing bringing another class for DPS as well. Not seeing a valid argument here going based off your own logic. Granted I don't raid, but going purely off of your arguments and the mechanics in place, I don't see a more simple or elegant solution that doesn't require a full rework of the trait, the tome, or the buff.

[RabbitUp.8294]

So, remove the only good grandmaster?

There already is a mantra trait, you know, how about you buff this one instead.

[nvmvoidrays.2158]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:So, remove the only good grandmaster?

There already is a mantra trait, you know, how about you buff this one instead.

no one will take that mantra trait because the second tier already has two better traits. plus, the mantra trait isn't even that good. reduced recharge is standard, but, the final charge immobilizes. oh boy.

[Kuya.6495]

You could probably get someone to use the mantra traits if, for example, the grandmaster one raised radius range to 300, and cone range to 900. I imagine that quickness oriented specs might benefit the most out of this. Other mantra traits need work too.

[Garimeth.8725]

@nvmvoidrays.2158 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:So, remove the only good grandmaster?

There already is a mantra trait, you know, how about you buff this one instead.

no one will take that mantra trait because the second tier already has two better traits. plus, the mantra trait isn't even that good. reduced recharge is standard, but, the final charge immobilizes. oh boy.

Rabbit's whole point is that it would be better to make our bad traits (the top row) better as opposed to reducing the efficacy of the good ones. I have to agree, The axe trait is ok but both the mantra ones totally suck.

[Brutaly.6257]

well i believe a nerf is incoming and it would be better if the nerf was actually a replacement and if so by something useful.

And to me loremaster is actually a powerfull trait on its own when the tomes are on cd.

I believe that the bottom traits are supposed to improve tomes, the middle ones improve mantras (major contribution to quickness) and the top ones are there to improve condition application.

There is no contradiction between adjusting a traits (QF) that probably be nerfed (deserved) and fixing the top row of bad traits. The entire argument is "Whataboutism".Sure the top row needs a complete overhaul but let that be based on extra conditions. But to honest if those are going to outshine the middle and bottom traits they need a complete overhaul.

I believe its more fitting (placement in the trait lines and that QF atm improves tomes to a larger extent) that Quickfire improved the mantras them self and that would also improve something FB is lacking, usable mantras for support. If we use the example that each mantra could deal 500+500+1000 healing (no healing power) in a 300 radius and 600 cone, with 5 mantras on the bar, who wouldnt trait it if they wanted to play support?Its 10k of healing in 2 seconds, plus 3aegis, regen for a lifetime, 5stability, 5* condi cleanse and 2 boon conversions, 5 stacks of burning for 5 seconds and a bunch of other condis. Is there a single profession that could do that?I know i wouldnt miss the old QuickFire one bit.

[Brutaly.6257]

Btw QF also improves RF and seriously we dont need more improvement to that skill, its the strongest elite and removing QF would improve the mantra elite only.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Brutaly.6257 said:well i believe a nerf is incoming and it would be better if the nerf was actually a replacement and if so by something useful.

And to me loremaster is actually a powerfull trait on its own when the tomes are on cd.

I believe that the bottom traits are supposed to improve tomes, the middle ones improve mantras (major contribution to quickness) and the top ones are there to improve condition application.

There is no contradiction between adjusting a traits (QF) that probably be nerfed (deserved) and fixing the top row of bad traits. The entire argument is "Whataboutism".Sure the top row needs a complete overhaul but let that be based on extra conditions. But to honest if those are going to outshine the middle and bottom traits they need a complete overhaul.

I believe its more fitting (placement in the trait lines and that QF atm improves tomes to a larger extent) that Quickfire improved the mantras them self and that would also improve something FB is lacking, usable mantras for support. If we use the example that each mantra could deal 500+500+1000 healing (no healing power) in a 300 radius and 600 cone, with 5 mantras on the bar, who wouldnt trait it if they wanted to play support?Its 10k of healing in 2 seconds, plus 3aegis, regen for a lifetime, 5stability, 5* condi cleanse and 2 boon conversions, 5 stacks of burning for 5 seconds and a bunch of other condis. Is there a single profession that could do that?I know i wouldnt miss the old QuickFire one bit.

Except that, as I said, we already have a mantra trait, and it's not in the middle row. I don't want a second mantra trait, especially when there are exactly 0 skill types in the game that have 2 traits to their name currently.

Mantras are already support by providing boons. If you want to improve their support output, focus on changing the existing trait from a control-wannabe fluff trait to a supportive/healing one. Transfer it in grandmaster tier if you want, but we don't need to lose options for more mantra traits.

Its 10k of healing in 2 seconds, plus 3

aegis, regen for a lifetime, 5

stability, 5* condi cleanse and 2 boon conversions, 5 stacks of burning for 5 seconds and a bunch of other condis. Is there a single profession that could do that?

And all that only has a place in pvp/wvw. For pve, it's useless, and you are removing a good deal of firebrand's damage to put it there.

@Brutaly.6257 said:Btw QF also improves RF and seriously we dont need more improvement to that skill, its the strongest elite and removing QF would improve the mantra elite only.

Except that RF is not used for QF, but to recharge the Tome. It has no synergy with QF.

If you want to play the blaming game, how about focusing on the fact that QF was meant to be for support firebrand, but is hijacked by the dps build, because of how stupid the Potence+QF interaction is?

[Mikeskies.1536]

Without Quickfire, Firebrand DPS is below 30k solo. Quickfire is probably a 4k DPS boost per target, when it should only really be 2k DPS boost at most. Also, Loremaster sucks as a PvE trait. Barely adds any DPS.

[RabbitUp.8294]

Loremaster needs Permeating Wrath, it doesn't work with the Zeal build.

[Holgarf.6581]

I don't know but i find the tome switching just to survive really annoying. The axe has no interrupt without daze (assuming you use the build for it), but that's not good enough because it kills slower than sword. I'm finding survivability as FB very difficult atm. Having the healing stuff separate in a tome leaves you with almost no DPS, so it's almost pointless healing because by the time you have and swap back (then blocking your healing via Tome 2 until it cools down), you've then lost your health again. It makes no sense to me. Plus, constantly switching in-and-out of tomes is really irritating. I want to use the axe, but I might have to just stick with sword until something is done about it, or just abandon tome 2 and 3 and use a shield with my axe for better survivability.

Edit: Trying new build (with skill for Bulwark) and ditched some mantras for normal heal skills and kept one mantra that inflicts blindness. Times like these I wish we could save builds because I'm going to have to keep chopping and changing.

Edit 2: Survivability is much better with a shield and careful use of Mantras, but the Mantra healing is dreadful. It's far from ideal tbh.

[MidnightO.8632]

I think FB traitline could use some more stability synergy instead of heals because once the tome goes on CD that's your fun with stability over. I suppose you could go for core to get stability synergy but at that point your tome is useless since those are designed to work without it. Though you can still spam aegis, but that benefits quickness.... which you can't really use when you're using the tome, no point in spamming aegis.

The 3rd tome in general could use some love. At least you can use healing tome with quickness traitline to quickly burst all the heals and go back to DPS. Maybe somone will figure out a build for it eventually.

@Holgarf.6581 said:I don't know but i find the tome switching just to survive really annoying. The axe has no interrupt without daze (assuming you use the build for it), but that's not good enough because it kills slower than sword. I'm finding survivability as FB very difficult atm. Having the healing stuff separate in a tome leaves you with almost no DPS, so it's almost pointless healing because by the time you have and swap back (then blocking your healing via Tome 2 until it cools down), you've then lost your health again. It makes no sense to me. Plus, constantly switching in-and-out of tomes is really irritating. I want to use the axe, but I might have to just stick with sword until something is done about it, or just abandon tome 2 and 3 and use a shield with my axe for better survivability.

Trying new build (with skill for Bulwark) and ditched some mantras for normal heal skills and kept one mantra that inflicts blindness. Times like these I wish we could save builds because I'm going to have to keep chopping and changing.

I recommend trying Mace/Shield. That's 2x Aegis on your weapons skills (and protection). Add mantra heal (that one's a bit of acquired taste) and mantra quickness. This will give you 3 different Aegis sources which proc quickness every 5 seconds and a block. And quickness can be used to burst healing tome (initial proc + 1 mantra charge is enough time to use 5 pages). This way you can nuke enemies with your fire tome and then keep both your sustain and damage up with quickness. Mace doesn't heal much but with Aegis spam and quickness you can sustain pretty well (even managed to face tank some mobs this way). You use the quickness mantra to pad out the 5s cooldown on trait granting it on Aegis. Though you could swap it out if you don't feel like you need the uptime.

I went the sword + blinds route first as well and it did not work nearly as well for survival (for me at least). I had the exact same problem with tomes.

[Ghotistyx.6942]

The mid line is the Quickness line, which should be evident by all the quickness that is there. Bottom is obviously about Tomes, but Top is about Firebrand skills; Axe and Mantras. Axe Bleeds and Dazes, Mantras Immobilize, and Stoic Demeanor inflicts Slow on foes you disable or immobilize. There's the synergy there. Its also worth noting that its on disable not interrupt, so top line was no doubt a Power/CC option to pair with Hammer or Staff. In fact, if you take FB top, Zeal x-top-x, and Mantra of Truth, you can quickly drop a lot of Vuln, Cripple, Immob, Blind, and Slow on a target (debuffs, cc, and mitigation). Add in Hammer that has both immob and disables, and that's likely where the direction they were going.

Now whether this is actually useful is a different argument. I liked how a lot of weapon traits were changed to give additional effects to all weapons, and enhanced effects to the specific weapon. Then they made Unrelenting Criticism which just grants Axe two effects and calls it a day. I'd suggest that rather than change QF, slightly buff Unrelenting Criticism and Stoic Demeanor. I'd like to see UC grant its daze to all weapons, but the bleed chance is also fine (and probably the more desired choice, but I want to focus on the top line). Stoic needs something, I'm not sure what. Another effect on immob or disable that can enhance the Slow or just provide more damage. A Power damage packet would be alright, similar to Lightning Rod on Ele Air, or a damaging condition application like a burn or a few bleeds/torment. Even cripple (or better yet chill!) would be fine for mixed debuffs.

[RabbitUp.8294]

Stoic Demeanor needs a complete rework, that's what it needs.

Yes, there's a theme with the top line, about disabling and stuff, but that has nothing to do with firebrand. There are only 2 cc skills among all the new skills and no immobilise. The fact that you need another trait to make Stoic Demeanor work, or use a core weapon, shows how out-of-place Stoic Demeanor is, and that thing is a grandmaster. It doesn't even have anything to do with the theme of the spec.

Having a couple of traits work together is not synergy, when they don't work with anything else in the spec. You could take these same traits and put them in any other spec, and they would make just as much sense, and probably be more effective with the amount of cc some other classes have.