Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]

Gehenna.3625 · September 27, 2018

@Pifil.5193 said:
@Gehenna.3625 said:
@Pifil.5193 said:There's quite a lot of too-ing and fro-ing here about details.
The
real
issue is that perceived player profiteering (aided by a general shortage in supply) has driven the price so high that people feel like they're being cheated. It's not
just
the high price, it's also
why
it's high but the
absolute
root of this issue is the fact that the price was really low and is high now (if the price had gone up from 1c to 25s, for example, then no-one would be complaining).
Had ArenaNet replaced the Sigils of Nullification with some new Widget sold at 5g or even 10g then I believe people would be much more accepting of the price, because they wouldn't be feeling like they'd missed out on something (getting the Sigil at 2s55c before they were all snapped up) and wouldn't be feeling like they're being ripped off by other players.

It is interesting that people would feel ripped off by a power trader but not by ArenaNet who would arguably make things expensive in gold cost in order to sell more gems. People are just strange, but then I might be stranger here.

I guess the difference is that it's seen as "fairer" if ArenaNet set a specific price that everyone has to pay.

Everyone spent 250g to unlock their griffon, for example, the early people didn't get it for 50g and then raise the price to 500g for latecomers.

But ask the same people if it's fair that latecomers have to pay for LS chapters and then it's ok. I just don't get these double standards I guess. But I still think the reason why the feel it's unfair is because of the price they have to pay and not the profiteering, cause people only feel unfairly treated because they have to pay more for the same. Ergo, the price does matter. I mean if the griffon had cost 50g and the latecomers would have to pay 55g I'm not sure that would cause much of an outrage.

Bloodstealer.5978 · September 27, 2018

@Pifil.5193 said:There's quite a lot of too-ing and fro-ing here about details.
The real issue is that perceived player profiteering (aided by a general shortage in supply) has driven the price so high that people feel like they're being cheated. It's not just the high price, it's also why it's high but the absolute root of this issue is the fact that the price was really low and is high now (if the price had gone up from 1c to 25s, for example, then no-one would be complaining).
Had ArenaNet replaced the Sigils of Nullification with some new Widget sold at 5g or even 10g then I believe people would be much more accepting of the price, because they wouldn't be feeling like they'd missed out on something (getting the Sigil at 2s55c before they were all snapped up) and wouldn't be feeling like they're being ripped off by other players.

I think its more players feel aggrieved that ANET is seen to be using the inability to even remotely balance supply and demand of the sigil to allow for TP profiteering in an effort to steer gem sales.. A fixed price for the set which includes pricing of specific items would of been the fairer way to of run this and still allow them to promote gem sales and gate the time required to complete if necessary. I guess this way feeds the greed for longer and keeps another nice stash of gold tucked away in those dark corners of the game in readiness for the next big TP item hike.

I mean as I said earlier if you take a conservative number of active players being 250k and lets say a 3rd of those want to get a set, so approx. 83k.. wouldn't be unbelievable imo… 25 sigils per set that's say like 83k x 25= 2,075,000 sigils needed, and I think that's pretty conservative.With only 1 sigil guaranteed if you choose to reroll to lvl 64 an ungodly amount of times and pay 2k gems for the privilege once your own supply of tomes and tokens is extinguished, that leaves an awful lot of praying to the toilet gods and/or some expensive outlay to buy from the TP.Except where does the TP get all those extra sigils from in order to keep up with demand, cos evidence so far suggests it isn't going to get anywhere close, anytime soon. I mean since the collection went live supply has dropped off from like 3k to currently under 1k with small amounts coming in along the way.If the TP could pull in 50k sigils a month, which is highly unlikely it indicates demand is still likely to be outstripping supply for many months to come.. so the only thing that is going to pull demand back is players loosing interest as time goes by, which I think is what will happen..The price is grossly inflated, but even if we were all happy about paying like 11gold each sigil, plus the gemstones, plus the leather.. the issue still remains that there simply isn't enough sigils in the system or a suitable route to resupplying it anyway.

Mister Asdasd.6194 · September 27, 2018

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@gerrylix.5234 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@gerrylix.5234 said:It's not hard to understand that such a goldwall can be frustrating for many.

Exactly ... it's not hard to understand ... yet Anet did it anyways. Seems to me there is a reason Anet does things, even though it's really easy to understand why those things can be frustrating to players.

I didn't really see much consideration in these kinds of threads of what that reason might be. Everyone who's complaining just assumed the worst they could. That's just not being objective. Do people honestly think Anet went out of their way to make you frustrated for NO REASON? If people do honestly think that, then why would Anet care what they think in the first place? Is there any reason Anet could provide that would change those people's thinking?

You assumed you're feeding whales, so you already assumed the worst. Why should anyone take that seriously? It's part of the game; if you want stuff, you buy it ... or you farm it yourself. Frankly, if you are making excuses to exclude yourself from the market system based on some assumption you made; that's a choice you made. I see little reason to complain about that ... it's how the game has worked for 6+ years now.

You got a few fair points there but just look at this chart, between 4AM and 5AM 18k sigils vanished from the market, so the assumption that a whale bought up the market is backed by numbers. That whale could of course be a whole guild or just one guy but it looks coordinated.

https://www.gw2tp.com/item/24572-superior-sigil-of-nullification

Yet we have people in this very thread admitting to buying the Sigil at 1g, 3.x gold and other values. Admitting that they bought only their required amount or some extra to later sell.

You are simply assuming a very tiny minority bought up all the Sigils and while that might well be compared to the entire player base, it is pure speculation that this minority was super wealthy TP barons. As Wanze and I have pointed out, this kind of market reaction and continued market reaction is not achievable by just some few players. It requires an entire shift in player base behavior versus a commodity.

Are some few making gold off of the initial 18k Sigils? Sure but how many and what type of players those are you can only speculate. Chances are high it is gold savvy players but that is not required. I can guarantee a vast majority of people in this thread would do the same given the opportunity, that is quite evident by the amount of envy and greed through the responses.

That does not affect in any way the Sigils which are now coming into the game yet are priced similar to previous Sigils which were bought up old stock. Turns out, any one owning Sigils for sale enjoys taking as much gold as they can for them. That too is no TP baron mumbo jumbo but simple normal player market interaction.

EDIT: the more this thread goes on it becomes evident that people are not actually opposed to the high price, but are rather envious of others having been faster or getting the same collection for less gold. Yes, that is unfortunate (and it affects me too since I don't have my Sigils yet but I don't mind getting beat by some savvy players. On the contrary, I applaud their dedication and speed to figure this stuff out). But that's life, you don't always get to win. What you can do is decide what the collection is worth to you and then buy or not buy the Sigil. There is no reason to cry over spilled milk.

Yeah.congratulate the whales who make the collection a living hell for people with limited time who cant no-life istan to afford a collection of skins.Truly lets applaud capitalism and how it even kittens us over in our videogames. How about you buy all he 11 gold sigils as a way to thank these players for exploiting a flawed player trading system and inconveniencing the whole playerbase.Next time something like this happens i will buy all of the suply cheap and sell it to a vendor so there will be thousands of people searching for an item on the TP which will not exist anymore. Truly amazing design choice

Ashen.2907 · September 27, 2018

@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Gop.8713 said:
@Dreddo.9865 said:
@Gop.8713 said:Yes, the entire thread did get derailed by the price discussion, and I also agree that you are very interested in talking about the price, when what is actually at issue is what caused the price to become artificially inflated. This is why I call it a distraction . . .No friend the price inflation on the sigil was normal. As happens everyday on so many useless items in the game. The fact that a developer decided to make the sigil a primary collection item didn't matter at all. It also doesn't matter if this affects tens of thousands of players in favor of 50 or 100, the issue is the price :)

I really can't agree. If instead of a tp item with a low enough price and low enough volume to be purchased completely by the first few players with a desire to do so anet had chosen to use a vendor item with a set price the same as the current sigil of nullification price or even a new tradable item with the same supply as the sigil of nullification, I think this thread would look a lot more like the current mistonium thread. There would be players complaining bc players always complain but it is the initial unfairness that inflamed ppl I think . . .

I could be wrong ofc, but there are ppl who think the current rate of mistonium availability is too slow and should be increased while others think it's fine and should be left alone, but everyone is pretty much 'meh, it is what it is either way' precisely bc that's true, it is what it is either way. Here, it's not. It's one way for some ppl and another way for others, made worse by the fact that the group with easier access was permitted to exploit the group with more limited access . . .

Yet the price would still be close to 11 gold at this point in time,
the main difference would have been that a couple of hundred players got the Sigil somewhat cheaper,
the TP would have drained similarly fast (with maybe 1-2 hours longer until empty IF we assume people do not talk to each other),
the amount of gold drained from the economy in form of 15% tax would have been less overall since the new equilibrium was not forced by flipper but would have been achieved naturally with more Sigils selling at lower price,
and the remaining players would again complain about to the price and how others got it cheaper, some again blaming TP barons.

Yes if they had used a different item things would be different, but they didn't and flippers did near nothing to change the resulting price we have now.

Yes, but the price isn't the issue . . .

If the item was expensive enough or had a high enough volume to prevent the initial exploitation, ppl wouldn't be upset . . .

So we agree on everything except what ppl are upset about . . .

People, including the OP, are explicitly stating that they are upset about the price.

Turkeyspit.3965 · September 27, 2018

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:You argued that people flipping the Sigil was unfair. I argued that markets do not need to be fair and are not fair on a consistent basis. You somehow got derailed on that issue or did not understand the comparison I made.
No, idc about flipping. One of the great things about gw2 is there are so many ways to enjoy it, and playing with the tp is really fun for some ppl and that's great. I know players who enjoy that more than actually playing the game. What I'm saying is that creating a demand for a cheap item with a limited supply and allowing the first few people to discover it to suck up the available supply to manipulate the price is more similar to trolling than flipping. You said that sort of thing happens every day, I asked you to provide examples, which you cannot bc they don't exist. It was your choice to compare the two dissimilar things that has created your confusion . . .

I said markets are unfair on a constant basis, and yes these things have happened with almost every single Living World patch (which was not my original point).

We are talking in circles, you are not carefully reading what I wrote or deciding not to understand only to then come with new points which again are untrue. I've given ample examples of the market being unfair to support my argument that markets do not need to be fair. You continue to add or change things in your statement or put words in my mouth likely since you did not carefully read what I wrote (I did not say these thing happen on a daily basis, I said markets are unfair on a daily basis).

Right, that's why it was an invalid comparison. Which isn't really very impt except that you're at a point that you can't admit it's invalid so you have to keep trying to explain it away . . .

Which is fine, I never made any claims to prove anything which I had not stated. You are free to disagree or not agree that my example fits as counter argument. In the future, say so and stop the wild goose chase. That said, you have not provided a single example to explain any of your statements FYI-

@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:Now if you want to argue that the market in GW2 should be made less free and more restrictive or be circumvented for specific items, fine. There can be arguments for that and against. That's a very different argument than saying market rules do not apply.
But that's all we're talking about. And the reason it is a solution here is bc new inventory can be introduced into the market without cost, which can't happen irl . . .

@Gop.8713 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No we are not. You are, every one else in this thread is/was concerned with if they should or should not interveen. You just don't seem to understand the difference.
No one ever doubted Arenanets ability do intervene.
So you're just confused with what I said then. Introducing new inventory is an intervention in the market, so arguing about whether they should introduce new inventory or arguing about whether they should intervene in the market is actually the same thing, there isn't a difference . . .

No, once again you decide to make things up and not understand, here is the 3 different arguments in this thread:A.) I do not think should intervene in the market at this point in time and as seldom as possibleB.) Many players who are unhappy with the price are that Arenant should intervene so that the price drops, ideally as fast as possibleC.) You come in with the concept that Arenanet CAN intervene and has the ability to do so (unlike in a real world market)

Now please read this and get that you are talking past everyone else in this thread, even if your position is in general congruent with people wanting price to drop on other issues.

No, the concept I introduced was that the price wasn't the issue, what ppl were actually fussed about was the initial exploitation . . .

Some admitted to this yes, the vast majority just wants their goodies cheaper than now which is very evident from the vast majority of people posting. You also did not introduce this concept, people on page two were already arguing that they are displeased with flippers aka TP barons on top of the price back when price was around 3-5 gold.

@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:The only reason we started talking about rl vs game economy is bc you said anet should just let the market take its course and it would sort itself out eventually just like irl, and I said the reason you do that irl is bc intervening with an influx of inventory has a cost while introducing inventory into the game does not . . .
@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Gop.8713 said:So to be clear, you agree that the price is based on supply and demand but argue that removing the supply from the tp did not artificially inflate the price . . ?

I agree that the price is based on supply and demand, but disagree that flippers are responsible for a permanent shift and increase in price as is currently visible (more or less depending on how much left over stored supply is being introduced into the market).

If you do not understand the difference I can not help you (or to be more exact I don't feel like explaining economics 101).

Again, you are absolutely wrong if you assume the new price point at current supply and demand is due to flippers.

Yeah. I still don't really care about the price though, so . . .

This is just what I said would happen when I pointed out my mistake in introducing you to new concepts too quickly in this environment. You would argue that water isn't wet at this point if someone told you was instead of letting you figure it out for yourself :(

and you not caring about the price is not my issue unless you want to continue derailing the thread when price is the essential main point of this thread. As far as me arguing water being wet, at least I understand what I am arguing about unlike your continued both side topic, not understanding what is being said (on multiple issues) and continued derailing of the thread.

Except it's not though, which is my point . . .

and you are wrong, since people keep coming back to price and wanting Arenanet to make adjustments based on price. But keep derailing the thread.

Well golly, I don't see how I can be derailing the thread when ppl were making the same point all the way back on page two :)

Because anger over having people flip the item is not the central issue to most. It's the cost resulting from this.

No one would care at all and this thread would die in 1 minute if price was suddenly changed to 10 silver again. Not 1 person would mind the initial TP flippers.

But that isn't the issue. The real problem is that this sigil is obtainable only via leveling to 64, or by RNG if you happen to get one from the mystic toilet, or get a specific exotic weapon to drop for you. That problem predates the current situation, but nobody cared since it was a nigh useless sigil to begin with, and was only used to craft one other item for the Dwayna collection. Now that there is a demand for it and the prices soar, this is the effect of the problem, not the cause.

It should never have been designed this way, and hopefully at least, this will cause ANET to sit up and notice, and ensure they never add anything else to the game that is acquired in such a dysfunctional manner.

If they can re-introduce crafting recipes for Revenant weapons that were removed during the beta test, you darn well know they could introduce a recipe to craft this sigil. It isn't an issue of "can't".

A poor design decision remains a poor design decision even if it has little impact; now that it is an issue is not the only reason to address it.

I'm speaking as someone who sees this all as heavy background noise, as I think the skins are ugly and not worth my time or effort to acquire - but I still think this issue needs to be fixed because it is simply a poor design decision.

Cyninja.2954 · September 27, 2018

@Mister Asdasd.6194 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@gerrylix.5234 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@gerrylix.5234 said:It's not hard to understand that such a goldwall can be frustrating for many.

Exactly ... it's not hard to understand ... yet Anet did it anyways. Seems to me there is a reason Anet does things, even though it's really easy to understand why those things can be frustrating to players.

I didn't really see much consideration in these kinds of threads of what that reason might be. Everyone who's complaining just assumed the worst they could. That's just not being objective. Do people honestly think Anet went out of their way to make you frustrated for NO REASON? If people do honestly think that, then why would Anet care what they think in the first place? Is there any reason Anet could provide that would change those people's thinking?

You assumed you're feeding whales, so you already assumed the worst. Why should anyone take that seriously? It's part of the game; if you want stuff, you buy it ... or you farm it yourself. Frankly, if you are making excuses to exclude yourself from the market system based on some assumption you made; that's a choice you made. I see little reason to complain about that ... it's how the game has worked for 6+ years now.

You got a few fair points there but just look at this chart, between 4AM and 5AM 18k sigils vanished from the market, so the assumption that a whale bought up the market is backed by numbers. That whale could of course be a whole guild or just one guy but it looks coordinated.

https://www.gw2tp.com/item/24572-superior-sigil-of-nullification

Yet we have people in this very thread admitting to buying the Sigil at 1g, 3.x gold and other values. Admitting that they bought only their required amount or some extra to later sell.

You are simply assuming a very tiny minority bought up all the Sigils and while that might well be compared to the entire player base, it is pure speculation that this minority was super wealthy TP barons. As Wanze and I have pointed out, this kind of market reaction and continued market reaction is not achievable by just some few players. It requires an entire shift in player base behavior versus a commodity.

Are some few making gold off of the initial 18k Sigils? Sure but how many and what type of players those are you can only speculate. Chances are high it is gold savvy players but that is not required. I can guarantee a vast majority of people in this thread would do the same given the opportunity, that is quite evident by the amount of envy and greed through the responses.

That does not affect in any way the Sigils which are now coming into the game yet are priced similar to previous Sigils which were bought up old stock. Turns out, any one owning Sigils for sale enjoys taking as much gold as they can for them. That too is no TP baron mumbo jumbo but simple normal player market interaction.

EDIT: the more this thread goes on it becomes evident that people are not actually opposed to the high price, but are rather envious of others having been faster or getting the same collection for less gold. Yes, that is unfortunate (and it affects me too since I don't have my Sigils yet but I don't mind getting beat by some savvy players. On the contrary, I applaud their dedication and speed to figure this stuff out). But that's life, you don't always get to win. What you can do is decide what the collection is worth to you and then buy or not buy the Sigil. There is no reason to cry over spilled milk.

Yeah.congratulate the whales who make the collection a living hell for people with limited time who cant no-life istan to afford a collection of skins.Truly lets applaud capitalism and how it even kittens us over in our videogames. How about you buy all he 11 gold sigils as a way to thank these players for exploiting a flawed player trading system and inconveniencing the whole playerbase.Next time something like this happens i will buy all of the suply cheap and sell it to a vendor so there will be thousands of people searching for an item on the TP which will not exist anymore. Truly amazing design choice

Actually let's congratulate capitalism on how Arenanet is able to provide you a near free service for over 6 years while keeping away from any pay to win shenanigans and keeping necessary items at a very low cost level.

Oh wait, that's not what you were talking about, you were about to mention how you spend 10 dollars per month on gems (a reasonable amount compared to subscription titles) easily affording a vast majority of optional quality of life items from the gem store as well as an ample supply of gold from converting gems to afford collection such as this one.

Oh wait, that too was not what you were saying? So I guess you are complaining about a nearly free game, which you spend almost no money on to support the developers while at the same time objecting to them using a small amount of OPTIONAL achievements to generate revenue so they can pay their employees.

Cyninja.2954 · September 27, 2018

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Gop.8713 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:You argued that people flipping the Sigil was unfair. I argued that markets do not need to be fair and are not fair on a consistent basis. You somehow got derailed on that issue or did not understand the comparison I made.
No, idc about flipping. One of the great things about gw2 is there are so many ways to enjoy it, and playing with the tp is really fun for some ppl and that's great. I know players who enjoy that more than actually playing the game. What I'm saying is that creating a demand for a cheap item with a limited supply and allowing the first few people to discover it to suck up the available supply to manipulate the price is more similar to trolling than flipping. You said that sort of thing happens every day, I asked you to provide examples, which you cannot bc they don't exist. It was your choice to compare the two dissimilar things that has created your confusion . . .