Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]

[Dante.1763]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Dedicant.6820" said:The major issue and why a lot of people are pissed is how things like this are going to be detrimental for the enjoyment of future living world chapters. You can no longer enjoy the story and take in all the details of the new map. Now you have to open yourself up to potential spoilers and rush through the content in order to make sure you won't be left at a disadvantage just in case the patch contains another little nugget like the sigil of nullification as a requirement for the content. Or you can play at your own pace knowing it may end up costing you later while others got it done for almost free comparatively.

I don't get this statement at all. You can completely enjoy all those things if you don't get the armor. I mean, that's rather deceptive way of thinking ... linking armor availability to the enjoyment of doing the content in the map ... LIke, 99% of the content isn't linked to the armor, but you're going to try to say you can't enjoy new maps because of 1% of content you have to 'rush' to get done. That's ridiculous.

Not really. I enjoy collecting things, so not having a reason to play on the map means not playing on the map. I need a reason to do content, and after getting a large portion of the achievements then realizing that i wont be able to get the armor(because of the sigils mostly) means running out of things to do on the map(yes there are achievements i dont have yet), as much bad rap as Kourna got i still have a reason to go back to it because i need the shards still to finish off the collection/backpack the map introduced, i dont have that here.

[Obtena.7952]

Hey, if that's your SOLE reason to go in a map to play the content, that's your choice to limit your reason to play ... it's optional anyways if you don't like how it's implemented. But make no mistake, there isn't anything unreasonable here. If you got disadvantaged because you didn't rush out and do something, that's not a game issue. That's a You choosing to play MMO's issue. There are tons of things like that in this game and any other MMO. It's the nature of how people play them. You're always at a disadvantage if you don't complete content while it's fresh ...

What's really making me feel we are not getting the truth is that if you wanted the armor so bad, you could have had it by now; the sigils are available and they aren't as unreasonably priced as people want to make it sound. It's not different than anything else in this game; you do stuff, you get gold, you buy and craft what you want. Somehow, people are trying to make like this is different when it's not.

The truth is that people just don't want to pay for the armor ... /shrug. I can't help but think that's part of the overall reason for sigil choice in the first place. The lesson here is that you should have some gold ready if you want things when there are new releases. We got 27 pages of what comes down to people not wanting to pay for what the market dictates the mats are worth ... we've heard this all before. That just means the market is working as intended ... as it has been for 6 years.

[Celeste.9135]

You are deliberately ignoring the point as per usual. It is not the availability of the armour that is the reason to play or the factor of enjoyment. No, it is the knowledge that playing through the story and exploring the map at a pace at which you can take everything in puts you at a disadvantage. The enjoyment you may have been able gain from those aspects is spoiled by that fact. But go ahead twist my words and ignore what I say... for whatever reason you have to do so.

I don't even like this armour set that much it is not a want for it that has me highlighting the flaws in the system and I can afford it at current prices. You constantly focus on the price when we complain about the market itself and the lack of reliable methods to gain the sigil by one's self. Like I have said several times I would have no issue paying 200+ gold to a vendor for a reliable and fair collection. The poor implementation is what I am bringing attention to and how it does have a detrimental effect on the patch as a whole. How I feel this should not be repeated in future living world updates. If Anet feel this should be expensive then they should set a price that every player pays equally.

No this isn't an issue with the players this is an issue with the design of this collection, with the choice of a sigil that has no crafting recipe, the choice of any item that can only be gained through levelling alts or rng. I don't give a damn about other MMOs and I certainly don't care that you think there's no issue. The lesson here for Anet is that a lot of their players did not enjoy this please don't do anything like it again.

[Tyson.5160]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Dedicant.6820" said:The major issue and why a lot of people are pissed is how things like this are going to be detrimental for the enjoyment of future living world chapters. You can no longer enjoy the story and take in all the details of the new map. Now you have to open yourself up to potential spoilers and rush through the content in order to make sure you won't be left at a disadvantage just in case the patch contains another little nugget like the sigil of nullification as a requirement for the content. Or you can play at your own pace knowing it may end up costing you later while others got it done for almost free comparatively.

I don't get this statement at all. You can completely enjoy all those things if you don't get the armor. I mean, that's rather deceptive way of thinking ... linking armor availability to the enjoyment of doing the content in the map ... LIke, 99% of the content isn't linked to the armor, but you're going to try to say you can't enjoy new maps because of 1% of content you have to 'rush' to get done. That's ridiculous.

I get what he’s saying. I kinda thinking the same thing. Next episode, in the back of my mind, I’m thinking so I got to rush through this to make sure I don’t get screwed over again, like this sigil scenario. This might not be everyone, but definitely see myself falling into this trap.

If the content is like the griffin. The price is set, so I can take my time and not get screwed over by it.

[Blanche Neige.7241]

@"Obtena.7952" said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

It dépends on the advantage. If the advantage is "you are going to make a ton of money on the back of other players", that advantage is not good for the game as a whole.

On the other hand, look at the griffon mount : players who played more had the advantage of getting the mount earlier than others, that advantage is ok, unlike the previous one.

[Gop.8713]

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

Ofc ppl who play more get advantages. They get stuff sooner and more of it. What they shouldn't get to do is deprive subsequent players of content. If the first hundred players to finish the new raid wing were permitted to charge an access fee to subsequent raiders, you would see similar discontent. But they didn't all they got was earlier access to raid goodies by virtue of finishing the content sooner, so you have seen no discontent . . .

[Obtena.7952]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Dedicant.6820" said:The major issue and why a lot of people are pissed is how things like this are going to be detrimental for the enjoyment of future living world chapters. You can no longer enjoy the story and take in all the details of the new map. Now you have to open yourself up to potential spoilers and rush through the content in order to make sure you won't be left at a disadvantage just in case the patch contains another little nugget like the sigil of nullification as a requirement for the content. Or you can play at your own pace knowing it may end up costing you later while others got it done for almost free comparatively.

I don't get this statement at all. You can completely enjoy all those things if you don't get the armor. I mean, that's rather deceptive way of thinking ... linking armor availability to the enjoyment of doing the content in the map ... LIke, 99% of the content isn't linked to the armor, but you're going to try to say you can't enjoy new maps because of 1% of content you have to 'rush' to get done. That's ridiculous.

I get what he’s saying. I kinda thinking the same thing. Next episode, in the back of my mind, I’m thinking so I got to rush through this to make sure I don’t get screwed over again, like this sigil scenario. This might not be everyone, but definitely see myself falling into this trap.

If the content is like the griffin. The price is set, so I can take my time and not get screwed over by it.

Yeah but ... the price is set by the market anyways ... the difference is only where the gold goes.

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

Ofc ppl who play more get advantages. They get stuff sooner and more of it. What they shouldn't get to do is deprive subsequent players of content. If the first hundred players to finish the new raid wing were permitted to charge an access fee to subsequent raiders, you would see similar discontent. But they didn't all they got was earlier access to raid goodies by virtue of finishing the content sooner, so you have seen no discontent . . .

You aren't deprived of content because of the market. That's absolutely silly ><

@Blanche Neige.7241 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

It dépends on the advantage. If the advantage is "you are going to make a ton of money on the back of other players", that advantage is not good for the game as a whole.

On the other hand, look at the griffon mount : players who played more had the advantage of getting the mount earlier than others, that advantage is ok, unlike the previous one.

Every time someone buys something from the market, someone gets gold from a player, but for some reason this instance is bad for the game? That's not sensible or honest. That's how the game works. This isn't new.

The bottom line is that people just don't want to pay the market value for the mats. That's unreasonable. Market dictates what they are worth. Anet stands behind the market and the benefits it brings to players. It's all sour grapes to complain about it.

[Tyson.5160]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Dedicant.6820" said:The major issue and why a lot of people are pissed is how things like this are going to be detrimental for the enjoyment of future living world chapters. You can no longer enjoy the story and take in all the details of the new map. Now you have to open yourself up to potential spoilers and rush through the content in order to make sure you won't be left at a disadvantage just in case the patch contains another little nugget like the sigil of nullification as a requirement for the content. Or you can play at your own pace knowing it may end up costing you later while others got it done for almost free comparatively.

I don't get this statement at all. You can completely enjoy all those things if you don't get the armor. I mean, that's rather deceptive way of thinking ... linking armor availability to the enjoyment of doing the content in the map ... LIke, 99% of the content isn't linked to the armor, but you're going to try to say you can't enjoy new maps because of 1% of content you have to 'rush' to get done. That's ridiculous.

I get what he’s saying. I kinda thinking the same thing. Next episode, in the back of my mind, I’m thinking so I got to rush through this to make sure I don’t get screwed over again, like this sigil scenario. This might not be everyone, but definitely see myself falling into this trap.

If the content is like the griffin. The price is set, so I can take my time and not get screwed over by it.

Yeah but ... the price is set by the market anyways ... the difference is only where the gold goes.

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

Ofc ppl who play more get advantages. They get stuff sooner and more of it. What they shouldn't get to do is deprive subsequent players of content. If the first hundred players to finish the new raid wing were permitted to charge an access fee to subsequent raiders, you would see similar discontent. But they didn't all they got was earlier access to raid goodies by virtue of finishing the content sooner, so you have seen no discontent . . .

You aren't deprived of content because of the market. That's absolutely silly ><

@Blanche Neige.7241 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

It dépends on the advantage. If the advantage is "you are going to make a ton of money on the back of other players", that advantage is not good for the game as a whole.

On the other hand, look at the griffon mount : players who played more had the advantage of getting the mount earlier than others, that advantage is ok, unlike the previous one.

Every time someone buys something from the market, someone gets gold from a player, but for some reason this one is different? That's not sensible. That's how the game works. This isn't new.

The bottom line is that people just don't want to pay the market value for the mats. That's unreasonable. It's what they are worth. Anet stands behind the market and the benefits it brings to players. It's all sour grapes to complain about it.

I get it, however why did Anet add precursor crafting. The similarities between this and precursor weapons is very interesting.

[Gop.8713]

@Obtena.7952 said:What's really making me feel we are not getting the truth is that if you wanted the armor so bad, you could have had it by now

That is exactly true. And what that should help you to realize is that it is something other than the cost that is keeping ppl from completing the collection. But you haven't been able to make that leap yet . . .

[Mewcifer.5198]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Dedicant.6820" said:I don't care about people playing more than others. I care about the sigil having no reliable method of acquisition. And no it is not fair as previously stated over 100s of comments, the people who rushed and got there early had an advantage over those who played the story at a normal pace. What would be fair is if everyone paid the same price like for the griffon. This is the opposite of fair.

And you have that ... it's available RELIABLY on the TP.

You're right though, it's not fair ... but it's an MMO. It's not intended to be fair. It's a market driven by player desires. If you don't like that, you're playing the wrong kind of game.

The TP is not a source, it is a redistribution method. The sigil does not have a reliable source.

[Gop.8713]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

Ofc ppl who play more get advantages. They get stuff sooner and more of it. What they shouldn't get to do is deprive subsequent players of content. If the first hundred players to finish the new raid wing were permitted to charge an access fee to subsequent raiders, you would see similar discontent. But they didn't all they got was earlier access to raid goodies by virtue of finishing the content sooner, so you have seen no discontent . . .

You aren't deprived of content because of the market. That's absolutely silly ><

I suppose you can parse word choice there if you like, but it's like the person earlier who was trying to argue that as long as there are 25 sigils on the tp, anyone can do the collection. And yes, anyone could, everyone else couldn't. The fact that everything on the tp can be purchased by anyone is the cause of the problem, not the solution . . .

But given the weakness of your position I can see why you'd rather argue semantics than address the issue . . .

[Drecien.4508]

I say let them add a vendor that sells the runes for 25g per rune. Problem solved.

[Celeste.9135]

@Gop.8713 said:But given the weakness of your position I can see why you'd rather argue semantics than address the issue . . .

Pretty much every single one of their responses is semantics, diversions and strawman arguments lol. They are purposefully twisting and/or ignoring the points we make every time, for whatever reason.

[Gop.8713]

@"Dedicant.6820" said:

@Gop.8713 said:But given the weakness of your position I can see why you'd rather argue semantics than address the issue . . .

Pretty much every single one of their responses is semantics, diversions and strawman arguments lol. They are purposefully twisting and/or ignoring the points we make every time, for whatever reason.

Idk, I'm not sure that's entirely fair either, though I'm absolutely certain it's true on particular occasions lol . . .

For one thing we're on page 27 and that's after a bunch of posts got deleted, it would be even longer. Most ppl have stopped listening by page 2 of any thread, and are just looking for their opportunities to make their points regardless of what the ppl they're replying to actually said . . .

I also think there are ppl who legitimately don't understand the issue, and if I didn't think that it wouldn't be worth it to continue trying to explain it. But there is a lot of whining on the forums, and there is doubtless some portion of posters in this thread who haven't read it at all, just looked at the title and assumed ppl are complaining about price and decided to jump in with their two cents . . .

And then I think a big one is just the fact that the issue touches on the market, which something some ppl just have a blind allegiance to as if whatever happens is the best thing that could have happened, bc it's what the market dictated. I often think of them in that way as free market Leibnizes, which is a comforting analogy bc it's a lot like arguing with a religious person in that you're never going to make any headway bc they give the market the same unquestioning reverence a religious person gives their deity . . .

[Obtena.7952]

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

Ofc ppl who play more get advantages. They get stuff sooner and more of it. What they shouldn't get to do is deprive subsequent players of content. If the first hundred players to finish the new raid wing were permitted to charge an access fee to subsequent raiders, you would see similar discontent. But they didn't all they got was earlier access to raid goodies by virtue of finishing the content sooner, so you have seen no discontent . . .

You aren't deprived of content because of the market. That's absolutely silly ><

I suppose you can parse word choice there if you like, but it's like the person earlier who was trying to argue that as long as there are 25 sigils on the tp, anyone can do the collection. And yes, anyone could, everyone else couldn't. The fact that everything on the tp can be purchased by anyone is the cause of the problem, not the solution . . .

But given the weakness of your position I can see why you'd rather argue semantics than address the issue . . .

That's interesting, but you aren't deprived of content because of a mat that is available to you on the market. That makes no sense. It's also not semantics ... that person was correct ... if the sigils are available and anyone can buy them, then anyone can do the collection. This is about availability, not price, not fairness, not advantage. If Anet didn't want people to exercise profiteering on the TP to keep mats competitively priced, they wouldn't have created the TP to function like it does in the first place. The TP functions like that for that reason. If you don't like it, you are playing the wrong game.

It's bad faith to disagree by ignoring the fact that sigils are available on the TP.

[Gop.8713]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

Ofc ppl who play more get advantages. They get stuff sooner and more of it. What they shouldn't get to do is deprive subsequent players of content. If the first hundred players to finish the new raid wing were permitted to charge an access fee to subsequent raiders, you would see similar discontent. But they didn't all they got was earlier access to raid goodies by virtue of finishing the content sooner, so you have seen no discontent . . .

You aren't deprived of content because of the market. That's absolutely silly ><

I suppose you can parse word choice there if you like, but it's like the person earlier who was trying to argue that as long as there are 25 sigils on the tp, anyone can do the collection. And yes, anyone could, everyone else couldn't. The fact that everything on the tp can be purchased by anyone is the cause of the problem, not the solution . . .

But given the weakness of your position I can see why you'd rather argue semantics than address the issue . . .

That's interesting, but you aren't deprived of content because of a mat that is

available

to you on the market. That makes no sense. It's also not semantics ... that person was correct ... if the sigils are available and anyone can buy them, then anyone can do the collection. This is about availability, not price, not fairness, not advantage. If Anet didn't want people to exercise profiteering on the TP to keep mats competitively priced, they wouldn't have created the TP to function like it does in the first place. The TP functions like that for that reason. If you don't like it, you are playing the wrong game.

It's bad faith to disagree by ignoring the fact that sigils are available on the TP.

But you're making the same mistake as the first person to bring it up, you're only considering whether one player can obtain the sigils not whether they are available to everyone interested in the content. That's why I said semantics -- 'deprived' might not be exactly the right word, maybe 'gated', 'restricted' or 'limited' or something, but regardless of word choice the idea is the same -- players are standing between other players and content, as in the raid example . . .

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Mewcifer.5198 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Dedicant.6820" said:I don't care about people playing more than others. I care about the sigil having no reliable method of acquisition. And no it is not fair as previously stated over 100s of comments, the people who rushed and got there early had an advantage over those who played the story at a normal pace. What would be fair is if everyone paid the same price like for the griffon. This is the opposite of fair.

And you have that ... it's available RELIABLY on the TP.

You're right though, it's not fair ... but it's an MMO. It's not intended to be fair. It's a market driven by player desires. If you don't like that, you're playing the wrong kind of game.

The TP is not a source, it is a redistribution method. The sigil does not have a reliable source.

As much as I haven't agreed with much Obtena has put out in this thread, which has at times made me suspicious for sure, on this occasion would agree that the TP is in fact technically a source for those not interested in spending all their game time rerolling a toon to lvl64 25 times or leaving themselves prone to RSS after endlessly flushing sigils down the toilet.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"Zaoda.1653" said:I don't think many people understand here (or can even comprehend logic at all) that it's not all about the price of the sigils - the problem is more about the AVAILABILITY/SUPPLY/ACCESS of getting the sigils (at one point the supply dropped down to 40 sigils - enough for a total of ONE player in GW2 to get the armour - making it literally as rare as legendary armour)........

Like I said, people are willing to put in the time and effort. It's not all about the price of the sigils, it's the way in which they're obtained (or lack thereof)

So if the price had remained at 3 silver for everyone, we would still have a thread as large as this complaining about its availability/supply/access? The availability/supply/access may be the cause of the price increase but people only started caring about that when the price got too high for them. The price is the driving force behind these complaints.

Availability/Supply/Access is the primary problem, because it biases against players who have real life obligations or want to take their time and enjoy the content. All it takes is a few goobers to zip through the content as fast as possible, recognize the rarity and value in these sigils, and buy up the majority of the stock. Thus, the people without a day job can rush through content and make a ton of money on the TP for literally doing nothing other than getting there first.

Um, hold on here ... MMO's by their NATURE are biased against players that can't devote the time to play them ... so that's not a problem Anet can fix, or any other game developer.

Um, yes it is a problem they could've fixed in this instance. They could have selected a material that doesn't have a very low supply/drop rate, or they could've spread out the problem by allowing any sigil to be used.

And ANet has made it clear elsewhere that their design philosophy is not to be "any other MMO" where people compete for the same resources. Mining nodes are shareable by everyone. People get their own loot rolls. This is not a common occurrence in other MMOs.

@Obtena.7952 said:There isn't a way to avoid the fact that people benefit from playing more.

This is just willfully ignorant. Any MMO can be designed in a way that playing obsessively is not necessarily better. Dailies/weekly caps (IE on raids or fractals) are a common example of this methodology. Bonus XP from not playing and drop rate limiters are other examples.

Can you completely eliminate the difference? No, nor should you. But ANet has implemented numerous features that don't allow frequent players to have an exponential bonus over less frequent players.

---

https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/item/24572-Superior-Sigil-of-Nullification

Notice that the supply line is mostly flat right up until the latest LW release?

The supply dropped DRASTICALLY in a 24 hour period. That's a poor design decision, that enabled market manipulation.

[Obtena.7952]

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

Ofc ppl who play more get advantages. They get stuff sooner and more of it. What they shouldn't get to do is deprive subsequent players of content. If the first hundred players to finish the new raid wing were permitted to charge an access fee to subsequent raiders, you would see similar discontent. But they didn't all they got was earlier access to raid goodies by virtue of finishing the content sooner, so you have seen no discontent . . .

You aren't deprived of content because of the market. That's absolutely silly ><

I suppose you can parse word choice there if you like, but it's like the person earlier who was trying to argue that as long as there are 25 sigils on the tp, anyone can do the collection. And yes, anyone could, everyone else couldn't. The fact that everything on the tp can be purchased by anyone is the cause of the problem, not the solution . . .

But given the weakness of your position I can see why you'd rather argue semantics than address the issue . . .

That's interesting, but you aren't deprived of content because of a mat that is

available

to you on the market. That makes no sense. It's also not semantics ... that person was correct ... if the sigils are available and anyone can buy them, then anyone can do the collection. This is about availability, not price, not fairness, not advantage. If Anet didn't want people to exercise profiteering on the TP to keep mats competitively priced, they wouldn't have created the TP to function like it does in the first place. The TP functions like that for that reason. If you don't like it, you are playing the wrong game.

It's bad faith to disagree by ignoring the fact that sigils are available on the TP.

But you're making the same mistake as the first person to bring it up, you're only considering whether one player can obtain the sigils not whether they are available to everyone interested in the content. That's why I said semantics -- 'deprived' might not be exactly the right word, maybe 'gated', 'restricted' or 'limited' or something, but regardless of word choice the idea is the same -- players are standing between other players and content, as in the raid example . . .

They are available to everyone interested in the content .... evident by the fact that at any time, you can see them on the TP waiting to be purchased. The market price balances the supply. If it didn't, there wouldn't be any for purchase. This is why the TP works, even in this case.

Even beyond that, players have a mode to place buy orders for them ... and they get filled too. Players standing between other players and content (if that's how you want to call it) is how this game has worked since day 1; the TP is the way people get items they want. That always means that interaction exists; it's not a problem that this is how mats trade hands between people. It's the INTENDED approach.

There isn't any way you're going to wordsmith your way around the FACT that the sigils are available via the TP to any player that wants to buy them at the market value, whether that's a direct buy from a sell offer or someone filling a buy order. Either is valid and intended.

[Obtena.7952]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Zaoda.1653 said:I don't think many people understand here (or can even comprehend logic at all) that it's not all about the price of the sigils - the problem is more about the AVAILABILITY/SUPPLY/ACCESS of getting the sigils (at one point the supply dropped down to 40 sigils - enough for a total of ONE player in GW2 to get the armour - making it literally as rare as legendary armour)........

Like I said, people are willing to put in the time and effort. It's not all about the price of the sigils, it's the way in which they're obtained (or lack thereof)

So if the price had remained at 3 silver for everyone, we would still have a thread as large as this complaining about its availability/supply/access? The availability/supply/access may be the cause of the price increase but people only started caring about that when the price got too high for them. The price is the driving force behind these complaints.

Availability/Supply/Access is the primary problem, because it biases against players who have real life obligations or want to take their time and enjoy the content. All it takes is a few goobers to zip through the content as fast as possible, recognize the rarity and value in these sigils, and buy up the majority of the stock. Thus, the people without a day job can rush through content and make a ton of money on the TP for literally doing nothing other than getting there first.

Um, hold on here ... MMO's by their NATURE are biased against players that can't devote the time to play them ... so that's not a problem Anet can fix, or any other game developer.

Um, yes it is a problem they could've fixed in this instance. They could have selected a material that doesn't have a very low supply/drop rate, or they could've spread out the problem by allowing any sigil to be used.

They could have, but they didn't. Clearly, you haven't considered that. That doesn't change the fact that the difference in available playtime between players isn't something Anet should consider when they make content for a gamestyle that intrinsically (and should) favour people that can give more playtime to. That wouldn't make any sense.

Regardless, if you want to get sigils, there they are, siting, waiting for people to buy them on the TP or place buy orders if you want the armor. There isn't much value in talking about all the things Anet could have done when they consciously choose this implementation.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

Ofc ppl who play more get advantages. They get stuff sooner and more of it. What they shouldn't get to do is deprive subsequent players of content. If the first hundred players to finish the new raid wing were permitted to charge an access fee to subsequent raiders, you would see similar discontent. But they didn't all they got was earlier access to raid goodies by virtue of finishing the content sooner, so you have seen no discontent . . .

You aren't deprived of content because of the market. That's absolutely silly ><

I suppose you can parse word choice there if you like, but it's like the person earlier who was trying to argue that as long as there are 25 sigils on the tp, anyone can do the collection. And yes, anyone could, everyone else couldn't. The fact that everything on the tp can be purchased by anyone is the cause of the problem, not the solution . . .

But given the weakness of your position I can see why you'd rather argue semantics than address the issue . . .

That's interesting, but you aren't deprived of content because of a mat that is

available

to you on the market. That makes no sense. It's also not semantics ... that person was correct ... if the sigils are available and anyone can buy them, then anyone can do the collection. This is about availability, not price, not fairness, not advantage. If Anet didn't want people to exercise profiteering on the TP to keep mats competitively priced, they wouldn't have created the TP to function like it does in the first place. The TP functions like that for that reason. If you don't like it, you are playing the wrong game.

It's bad faith to disagree by ignoring the fact that sigils are available on the TP.

But you're making the same mistake as the first person to bring it up, you're only considering whether one player can obtain the sigils not whether they are available to everyone interested in the content. That's why I said semantics -- 'deprived' might not be exactly the right word, maybe 'gated', 'restricted' or 'limited' or something, but regardless of word choice the idea is the same -- players are standing between other players and content, as in the raid example . . .

They are available to everyone interested in the content .... evident by the fact that at any time, you can see them on the TP waiting to be purchased. The market price balances the supply. If it didn't, there wouldn't be any for purchase. This is why the TP works, even in this case.

Even beyond that, players have a mode to place buy orders for them ... and they get filled too. Players standing between other players and content (if that's how you want to call it) is how this game has worked since day 1; the TP is the way people get items they want. That always means that interaction exists; it's not a problem that this is how mats trade hands between people. It's the INTENDED approach.

There isn't any way you're going to wordsmith your way around the FACT that the sigils are available via the TP to any player that wants to buy them at the market value, whether that's a direct buy from a sell offer or someone filling a buy order. Either is valid and intended.

That is not entirely accurate in this case.. the available supply was swallowed up and flipped, that much is obvious to anyone and the inflated price became your norm.. this has been held by short supply and trickle fed supply that was flipped.If this had not been allowed to happen the price would of risen to its new norm for sure but nowhere near the artificially inflated price it did and continues to be...that is nor market force that is market manipulation 101

[Gop.8713]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

Ofc ppl who play more get advantages. They get stuff sooner and more of it. What they shouldn't get to do is deprive subsequent players of content. If the first hundred players to finish the new raid wing were permitted to charge an access fee to subsequent raiders, you would see similar discontent. But they didn't all they got was earlier access to raid goodies by virtue of finishing the content sooner, so you have seen no discontent . . .

You aren't deprived of content because of the market. That's absolutely silly ><

I suppose you can parse word choice there if you like, but it's like the person earlier who was trying to argue that as long as there are 25 sigils on the tp, anyone can do the collection. And yes, anyone could, everyone else couldn't. The fact that everything on the tp can be purchased by anyone is the cause of the problem, not the solution . . .

But given the weakness of your position I can see why you'd rather argue semantics than address the issue . . .

That's interesting, but you aren't deprived of content because of a mat that is

available

to you on the market. That makes no sense. It's also not semantics ... that person was correct ... if the sigils are available and anyone can buy them, then anyone can do the collection. This is about availability, not price, not fairness, not advantage. If Anet didn't want people to exercise profiteering on the TP to keep mats competitively priced, they wouldn't have created the TP to function like it does in the first place. The TP functions like that for that reason. If you don't like it, you are playing the wrong game.

It's bad faith to disagree by ignoring the fact that sigils are available on the TP.

But you're making the same mistake as the first person to bring it up, you're only considering whether one player can obtain the sigils not whether they are available to everyone interested in the content. That's why I said semantics -- 'deprived' might not be exactly the right word, maybe 'gated', 'restricted' or 'limited' or something, but regardless of word choice the idea is the same -- players are standing between other players and content, as in the raid example . . .

They are available to everyone interested in the content .... evident by the fact that at any time, you can see them on the TP waiting to be purchased. The market price balances the supply. If it didn't, there wouldn't be any for purchase.

Even beyond that, players have a mode to place buy orders for them ... and they get filled too. Players standing between other players and content (if that's how you want to call it) is how this game has worked since day 1; the TP is the way people get items they want. That always means that interaction exists; it's not a problem that this is how mats trade hands between people. It's the INTENDED approach.

There isn't any way you're going to wordsmith your way around the FACT that the sigils are available via the TP to any player that wants to buy them at the market value, whether that's a direct buy from a sell offer or someone filling a buy order. Either is valid and intended.

It takes no wordsmithery, happily. You are saying that the sigils are available bc we can all see them on the tp, and that is true. But what you are missing is that the reason those sigils are there is bc many players have been driven from the market, not by price, but in disgust or despair over how this story collection was handled. Driving those players away from the content is a negative outcome for the game. But, if those players had remained and were willing to purchase, there is no way to know whether the supply provided on the tp would be sufficient to meet that demand. Given the numbers, it seems unlikely. That is one issue . . .

Another, separate issue is that in choosing a tradable item with relatively low availability anet has allowed players to come between other players and content. There is no indication that this has ever been intended, and there really is no previous example of this in the game. The vast majority of items traded on the tp are traded for convenience. If I want a bunch of elder wood to build a legendary, I can go out and farm it, but I'd rather buy it on the tp. If there wasn't any elder wood on the tp, I could still farm it. No one could keep me from my loots if I wanted them. But if I wanted a sigil and it wasn't available on the tp, I could hope I had a bunch of tomes and an empty toon slot, or I could get lucky with rng, or I could just not get my sigil. Those would be my only options. There is no precedent for that in gw2. The closest you can get are 'lottery' items like invisible boots or unique infusions, which are designed specifically to be ultra-rare and therefore not comparable to an item that is part of a collection tied to a story in an LS ep, or the LNY dumplings for Drooburt's ap, which I think is the most similar past event and strongest argument in favor of the current situation. My arguments against using Drooburt as a good precedent would be 1) It was a mistake then too :p and 2) there wasn't any actual content behind completing drooburt's ap, it was just ap that you could just as easily get elsewhere . . .

[Obtena.7952]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

Ofc ppl who play more get advantages. They get stuff sooner and more of it. What they shouldn't get to do is deprive subsequent players of content. If the first hundred players to finish the new raid wing were permitted to charge an access fee to subsequent raiders, you would see similar discontent. But they didn't all they got was earlier access to raid goodies by virtue of finishing the content sooner, so you have seen no discontent . . .

You aren't deprived of content because of the market. That's absolutely silly ><

I suppose you can parse word choice there if you like, but it's like the person earlier who was trying to argue that as long as there are 25 sigils on the tp, anyone can do the collection. And yes, anyone could, everyone else couldn't. The fact that everything on the tp can be purchased by anyone is the cause of the problem, not the solution . . .

But given the weakness of your position I can see why you'd rather argue semantics than address the issue . . .

That's interesting, but you aren't deprived of content because of a mat that is

available

to you on the market. That makes no sense. It's also not semantics ... that person was correct ... if the sigils are available and anyone can buy them, then anyone can do the collection. This is about availability, not price, not fairness, not advantage. If Anet didn't want people to exercise profiteering on the TP to keep mats competitively priced, they wouldn't have created the TP to function like it does in the first place. The TP functions like that for that reason. If you don't like it, you are playing the wrong game.

It's bad faith to disagree by ignoring the fact that sigils are available on the TP.

But you're making the same mistake as the first person to bring it up, you're only considering whether one player can obtain the sigils not whether they are available to everyone interested in the content. That's why I said semantics -- 'deprived' might not be exactly the right word, maybe 'gated', 'restricted' or 'limited' or something, but regardless of word choice the idea is the same -- players are standing between other players and content, as in the raid example . . .

They are available to everyone interested in the content .... evident by the fact that at any time, you can see them on the TP waiting to be purchased. The market price balances the supply. If it didn't, there wouldn't be any for purchase. This is why the TP works, even in this case.

Even beyond that, players have a mode to place buy orders for them ... and they get filled too. Players standing between other players and content (if that's how you want to call it) is how this game has worked since day 1; the TP is the way people get items they want. That always means that interaction exists; it's not a problem that this is how mats trade hands between people. It's the INTENDED approach.

There isn't any way you're going to wordsmith your way around the FACT that the sigils are available via the TP to any player that wants to buy them at the market value, whether that's a direct buy from a sell offer or someone filling a buy order. Either is valid and intended.

That is not entirely accurate in this case.. the available supply was swallowed up and flipped, that much is obvious to anyone and the inflated price became your norm.. this has been held by short supply and trickle fed supply that was flipped.If this had not been allowed to happen the price would of risen to its new norm for sure but nowhere near the artificially inflated price it did and continues to be...that is nor market force that is market manipulation 101

Here is something to think about.

Do you think Anet chose that sigil and not anticipate the market price would re-normalize based on increased demand? The fact is that the game is designed FOR this to happen. We can theorize all we want about what would be if it wasn't allowed; it's completely irrelevant. Dislike it all you want but the game is DESIGNED for this to happen. It isn't the first time either and it won't be the last. It's designed this way for a reason; to allow for competitive pricing of mats, which ensures they are available to players. YES, someone makes some big gold in all this ... but why is that such a big deal ... it's worked like that for 6 years. It's not a problem.

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's not true for everyone and the fact is that there are going to be instances where people get some advantage by playing the game more than someone else. You aren't going to make an argument here that makes sense because it's just natural that people that can play more will have an advantage over those that can't.

Ofc ppl who play more get advantages. They get stuff sooner and more of it. What they shouldn't get to do is deprive subsequent players of content. If the first hundred players to finish the new raid wing were permitted to charge an access fee to subsequent raiders, you would see similar discontent. But they didn't all they got was earlier access to raid goodies by virtue of finishing the content sooner, so you have seen no discontent . . .

You aren't deprived of content because of the market. That's absolutely silly ><

I suppose you can parse word choice there if you like, but it's like the person earlier who was trying to argue that as long as there are 25 sigils on the tp, anyone can do the collection. And yes, anyone could, everyone else couldn't. The fact that everything on the tp can be purchased by anyone is the cause of the problem, not the solution . . .

But given the weakness of your position I can see why you'd rather argue semantics than address the issue . . .

That's interesting, but you aren't deprived of content because of a mat that is

available

to you on the market. That makes no sense. It's also not semantics ... that person was correct ... if the sigils are available and anyone can buy them, then anyone can do the collection. This is about availability, not price, not fairness, not advantage. If Anet didn't want people to exercise profiteering on the TP to keep mats competitively priced, they wouldn't have created the TP to function like it does in the first place. The TP functions like that for that reason. If you don't like it, you are playing the wrong game.

It's bad faith to disagree by ignoring the fact that sigils are available on the TP.

But you're making the same mistake as the first person to bring it up, you're only considering whether one player can obtain the sigils not whether they are available to everyone interested in the content. That's why I said semantics -- 'deprived' might not be exactly the right word, maybe 'gated', 'restricted' or 'limited' or something, but regardless of word choice the idea is the same -- players are standing between other players and content, as in the raid example . . .

They are available to everyone interested in the content .... evident by the fact that at any time, you can see them on the TP waiting to be purchased. The market price balances the supply. If it didn't, there wouldn't be any for purchase.

Even beyond that, players have a mode to place buy orders for them ... and they get filled too. Players standing between other players and content (if that's how you want to call it) is how this game has worked since day 1; the TP is the way people get items they want. That always means that interaction exists; it's not a problem that this is how mats trade hands between people. It's the INTENDED approach.

There isn't any way you're going to wordsmith your way around the FACT that the sigils are available via the TP to any player that wants to buy them at the market value, whether that's a direct buy from a sell offer or someone filling a buy order. Either is valid and intended.

It takes no wordsmithery, happily. You are saying that the sigils are available bc we can all see them on the tp, and that is true. But what you are missing is that the reason those sigils are there is bc many players have been driven from the market, not by price, but in disgust or despair over how this story collection was handled.

That's speculation, but I'm game.

That's their decision. The TP doesn't care what reason people do or don't buy mats and that reason is completely transparent to a buyer or seller. The barrier to purchase is irrelevant. If anything, we more practical types thank players that exclude themselves for emotional reasons. If people want to exclude themselves because of how they feel instead of what they want, then I question their motives and expectations; it's an empty gesture ... the market works regardless.

[Gop.8713]

@Obtena.7952 said:That's speculation, but I'm game.

That's their decision. The TP doesn't care what reason people do or don't buy mats and that reason is completely transparent to a buyer or seller. The barrier to purchase is irrelevant. If anything, we more practical types thank players that exclude themselves for emotional reasons. If people want to exclude themselves because of how they feel instead of what they want, then I question their motives and expectations; it's an empty gesture ... the market works regardless.

It's a game. If you're not playing it for fun -- an emotional reason -- you're doing it wrong . . .

That aside, you've failed to answer the question and instead raised another. Regardless of how you feel about ppl removing themselves from the market, the fact remains that the supply they would have consumed remains on the tp, and if it didn't whether enough supply would exist is an open question that the numbers indicate would be answered in the negative. Which would mean there is not sufficient supply of sigils, which was the question posed. You chose not to address this and instead raised another issue of whether the market is working, which of course it is . . .

No one anywhere in this thread has posited that the market has failed. Ppl who arrived early were able to purchase all of the available stock of sigils. In the time since, they may or may not have all been relisted, perhaps or perhaps not in a manner that artificially restricted supply in an effort to increase profit, and any of that behavior would fall within the confines of a 'working market'. But if you've built a machine that is discovered to grind your consumers to a pulp during its operation, it is insufficient to point out that it is working as designed . . .

Supposing instead that the market had failed in some way and prevented the early draining of the supply of sigils that actually would have prevented one of the problems the collection has created. So the fact that the market is working is actually a problem in this case, if you would rather address that than the issues at hand . . .

[Blanche Neige.7241]

There is currently 1559 Superior Sigil of Nullification for sale on the TP. That is enoug for 62 players to complete the collection. If 100 players decide to complete the collection now, 38 would be unable to. And since there is no reliable way to get those sigils, they would not be able to get them in another way (and no, levelling 25 alts to level 64 is not a reliable way to get them).

Uless Anet clearly state in a post that this situation was planned from the start, I'll believe they forgot to check how this sigil was obtainable in the first place.

An easy fix would be to add one in the chest you can open each day in the Sun Refuge. Players who wants to do it the fast way could still buy them on the TP. Those less in a hurry ones could wait 25 days to have all they need.