Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's speculation, but I'm game.

That's their decision. The TP doesn't care what reason people do or don't buy mats and that reason is completely transparent to a buyer or seller. The barrier to purchase is irrelevant. If anything, we more practical types thank players that exclude themselves for emotional reasons. If people want to exclude themselves because of how they feel instead of what they want, then I question their motives and expectations; it's an empty gesture ... the market works regardless.

It's a game. If you're not playing it for fun -- an emotional reason -- you're doing it wrong . . .

That aside, you've failed to answer the question and instead raised another. Regardless of how you

feel

about ppl removing themselves from the market, the fact remains that the supply they would have consumed remains on the tp, and if it didn't whether enough supply would exist is an open question that the numbers indicate would be answered in the negative. Which would mean there is not sufficient supply of sigils, which was the question posed. You chose not to address this and instead raised another issue of whether the market is working, which of course it is . . .

No one anywhere in this thread has posited that the market has failed. Ppl who arrived early were able to purchase all of the available stock of sigils. In the time since, they may or may not have all been relisted, perhaps or perhaps not in a manner that artificially restricted supply in an effort to increase profit, and any of that behavior would fall within the confines of a 'working market'. But if you've built a machine that is discovered to grind your consumers to a pulp during its operation, it is insufficient to point out that it is working as designed . . .

Supposing instead that the market had failed in some way and prevented the early draining of the supply of sigils that actually would have prevented one of the problems the collection has created. So the fact that the market is working is actually a problem in this case, if you would rather address that than the issues at hand . . .

That is because Obtena is conveniently working off the market after the flip occurred and price and supply were/ are what it is now.. and fixating on the price.Price is just one barrier, supply is another.. not everyone chooses to use the trading post to play the game, not everyone has time to farm or flush.. so for many others this collection is going to take a long time to complete, if they ever do.What Obtena still chooses to skirt around is the fairness across the whole playerbase from both a price and availability perspective and that is how ANET have failed their customer once again imo. But a fix now will only serve to throw that unfairness back on those who have already bitten the bullet and paid the TP overlords their coin. There is no fix now, its gone on too long. It is what it is, ANET have likely been able to hook a decent amount of whales I am sure, so all is good I guess.As for early heads up to a few or fast content completers.. they have proven just how gross this game market can be manipulated if needed to be, and I for sure think this was just another element that was utilised to pressure steer gem sales, making money through the game is one thing but there are much fairer ways this could of been achieved.

[Obtena.7952]

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's speculation, but I'm game.

That's their decision. The TP doesn't care what reason people do or don't buy mats and that reason is completely transparent to a buyer or seller. The barrier to purchase is irrelevant. If anything, we more practical types thank players that exclude themselves for emotional reasons. If people want to exclude themselves because of how they feel instead of what they want, then I question their motives and expectations; it's an empty gesture ... the market works regardless.

It's a game. If you're not playing it for fun -- an emotional reason -- you're doing it wrong . . .

That aside, you've failed to answer the question and instead raised another. Regardless of how you

feel

about ppl removing themselves from the market, the fact remains that the supply they would have consumed remains on the tp, and if it didn't whether enough supply would exist is an open question that the numbers indicate would be answered in the negative. Which would mean there is not sufficient supply of sigils, which was the question posed. You chose not to address this and instead raised another issue of whether the market is working, which of course it is . . .

The reason I 'failed' to answer that question is because I don't know the answer ... but you don't either, even though you pretend you do. You keep throwing around the idea the supply is insufficient ... you have no idea if that's true or not. You don't have the data to make that statement.

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's speculation, but I'm game.

That's their decision. The TP doesn't care what reason people do or don't buy mats and that reason is completely transparent to a buyer or seller. The barrier to purchase is irrelevant. If anything, we more practical types thank players that exclude themselves for emotional reasons. If people want to exclude themselves because of how they feel instead of what they want, then I question their motives and expectations; it's an empty gesture ... the market works regardless.

It's a game. If you're not playing it for fun -- an emotional reason -- you're doing it wrong . . .

That aside, you've failed to answer the question and instead raised another. Regardless of how you

feel

about ppl removing themselves from the market, the fact remains that the supply they would have consumed remains on the tp, and if it didn't whether enough supply would exist is an open question that the numbers indicate would be answered in the negative. Which would mean there is not sufficient supply of sigils, which was the question posed. You chose not to address this and instead raised another issue of whether the market is working, which of course it is . . .

No one anywhere in this thread has posited that the market has failed. Ppl who arrived early were able to purchase all of the available stock of sigils. In the time since, they may or may not have all been relisted, perhaps or perhaps not in a manner that artificially restricted supply in an effort to increase profit, and any of that behavior would fall within the confines of a 'working market'. But if you've built a machine that is discovered to grind your consumers to a pulp during its operation, it is insufficient to point out that it is working as designed . . .

Supposing instead that the market had failed in some way and prevented the early draining of the supply of sigils that actually would have prevented one of the problems the collection has created. So the fact that the market is working is actually a problem in this case, if you would rather address that than the issues at hand . . .

That is because Obtena is conveniently working off the market after the flip occurred and price and supply were/ are what it is now.. and fixating on the price.Price is just one barrier, supply is another.. not everyone chooses to use the trading post to play the game, not everyone has time to farm or flush.. so for many others this collection is going to take a long time to complete, if they ever do.What Obtena still chooses to skirt around is the fairness across the whole playerbase from both a price and availability perspective and that is how ANET have failed their customer once again imo. But a fix now will only serve to throw that unfairness back on those who have already bitten the bullet and paid the TP overlords their coin. There is no fix now, its gone on too long. It is what it is, ANET have likely been able to hook a decent amount of whales I am sure, so all is good I guess.As for early heads up to a few or fast content completers.. they have proven just how gross this game market can be manipulated if needed to be, and I for sure think this was just another element that was utilised to pressure steer gem sales, making money through the game is one thing but there are much fairer ways this could of been achieved.

I'm not skirting the 'fairness' issue because there isn't one; it's not relevant if the TP is fair or not. "being fair" is what you lose so that everyone has access to mats at market prices. It's really not relevant anyways. Even if it's not fair, what do you think Anet will do 6 years into the game? Throw it all away? Again, this isn't an academic problem, it's a practical one. It's not about fair, or price or emotions. It's about if you have gold to by sigils. You make it into things it's not about to win an argument. OK you win ... you're sigils are still going to be whatever the market dictates they are.

[Gop.8713]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's speculation, but I'm game.

That's their decision. The TP doesn't care what reason people do or don't buy mats and that reason is completely transparent to a buyer or seller. The barrier to purchase is irrelevant. If anything, we more practical types thank players that exclude themselves for emotional reasons. If people want to exclude themselves because of how they feel instead of what they want, then I question their motives and expectations; it's an empty gesture ... the market works regardless.

It's a game. If you're not playing it for fun -- an emotional reason -- you're doing it wrong . . .

That aside, you've failed to answer the question and instead raised another. Regardless of how you

feel

about ppl removing themselves from the market, the fact remains that the supply they would have consumed remains on the tp, and if it didn't whether enough supply would exist is an open question that the numbers indicate would be answered in the negative. Which would mean there is not sufficient supply of sigils, which was the question posed. You chose not to address this and instead raised another issue of whether the market is working, which of course it is . . .

The reason I 'failed' to answer that question is because I don't know the answer ... but you don't either, even though you pretend you do. You keep throwing around the idea the supply is insufficient ... you have no idea if that's true or not. You don't have the data to make that statement.

Okay, there we go, there is no way to know if supply is sufficient to meet demand and therefore the true availability of the sigil is an unknown. If you scroll back up you'll discover this was a hotly debated point within the last page or two. Caps lock was even involved on several occasions. With that resolved, what would be the best way to improve the availability of the sigil moving forward . . ?

[Dreddo.9865]

@Mewcifer.5198 said:The TP is not a source, it is a redistribution method. The sigil does not have a reliable source.It's funny when you have to make a post to explain the obvious isn't it? =)

[MachineManXX.9746]

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's speculation, but I'm game.

That's their decision. The TP doesn't care what reason people do or don't buy mats and that reason is completely transparent to a buyer or seller. The barrier to purchase is irrelevant. If anything, we more practical types thank players that exclude themselves for emotional reasons. If people want to exclude themselves because of how they feel instead of what they want, then I question their motives and expectations; it's an empty gesture ... the market works regardless.

It's a game. If you're not playing it for fun -- an emotional reason -- you're doing it wrong . . .

That aside, you've failed to answer the question and instead raised another. Regardless of how you

feel

about ppl removing themselves from the market, the fact remains that the supply they would have consumed remains on the tp, and if it didn't whether enough supply would exist is an open question that the numbers indicate would be answered in the negative. Which would mean there is not sufficient supply of sigils, which was the question posed. You chose not to address this and instead raised another issue of whether the market is working, which of course it is . . .

The reason I 'failed' to answer that question is because I don't know the answer ... but you don't either, even though you pretend you do. You keep throwing around the idea the supply is insufficient ... you have no idea if that's true or not. You don't have the data to make that statement.

Okay, there we go, there is no way to know if supply is sufficient to meet demand and therefore the true availability of the sigil is an unknown. If you scroll back up you'll discover this was a hotly debated point within the last page or two. Caps lock was even involved on several occasions. With that resolved, what would be the best way to improve the availability of the sigil moving forward . . ?

You can say for 100% certainty that supply up to this point has been sufficient to meet demand. At no point has supply dipped below 25. You can't say "but what if ??" ... Because what if has not happened up to this point.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

Oh god, just add a recipe and be done with it.

[Dreddo.9865]

@"MachineManXX.9746" said:You can say for 100% certainty that supply up to this point has been sufficient to meet demand. At no point has supply dipped below 25. You can't say "but what if ??" ... Because what if has not happened up to this point.Not really, since the buy/sell price is still high which means demand is also high and supply is low. If the supply was sufficient the price should have dropped at a much lower level. As things stand now this sigil is a barrier for many players in their effort to complete the achievement.

[MachineManXX.9746]

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@"MachineManXX.9746" said:You can say for 100% certainty that supply up to this point has been sufficient to meet demand. At no point has supply dipped below 25. You can't say "but what if ??" ... Because what if has not happened up to this point.Not really, since the buy/sell price is still high which means demand is also high and supply is low. If the supply was sufficient the price should have dropped at a much lower level. As things stand now this sigil is a barrier for many players in their effort to complete the achievement.

But now people are saying "it's not about the price, it's the supply!" Well, it can't be supply, because there has always been enough. So now is it the price?

[Colly.4073]

Has Anet even hinted they are going to do something about this or not? I refuse to give all my hard earned gold to some rich prat who wants to rip people off, none of my money will be going to Gems either if anet thinks that this is ok and does nothing.

[Holykitten.3064]

Comparison postStats from Gw2efficiency. (So one can assume these numbers are actually higher.)https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/703757#Comment_703757October 3rd:Intermediary stages of Requiem;Requiem: Experiment 1- Completed by 8,741Requiem: Experiment 2 -Completed by 7,684Requiem: Experiment 3 - (10 sigils needed). Completed by 3,481Requiem: Experiment 4 - (5 Sigils needed) Completed by 2,877Requiem: Experiment 5 - (5 Sigils needed) Completed by 2,495Requiem: Experiment 6 - (5 Sigils needed) Completed by 2,225

Today 4 days later:Requiem: Experiment 1- Completed by 9,525Requiem: Experiment 2 -Completed by 8,449Requiem: Experiment 3 - (10 sigils needed). Completed by 3,844 (Increase of 363 accounts x 10 sigils = 3630 sigils)Requiem: Experiment 4 - (5 Sigils needed) Completed by 3,221 (increase of 344 accounts x 5 sigils = 1720 sigils)Requiem: Experiment 5 - (5 Sigils needed) Completed by 2,839 (Increase of 344 accounts x 5 sigils = 1720 sigils)Requiem: Experiment 6 (Full completion of CoS Requiem)- (5 Sigils needed) Completed by 2,585 (Increase of 360 accounts x 5 sigils = 1800 sigils)

Total sigils used in 4 days = 8870 sigils.

Not really, since the buy/sell price is still high which means demand is also high and supply is low. If the supply was sufficient the price should have dropped at a much lower level. As things stand now this sigil is a barrier for many players in their effort to complete the achievement.

The supply looks sufficient. Are you taking into account the sigils that don't enter the Trading Post, or the Sigils straight up sold to buy orders? No? Didn't think so.

Has Anet even hinted they are going to do something about this or not?

Nope.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

In 4 days

Requiem: Experiment 6 (Full completion of CoS Requiem)- (5 Sigils needed) Completed by 2,585 (Increase of 360 accounts x 5 sigils = 1800 sigils)

That’s not even 100 accounts a day getting this completed.

I don’t consider that rate of completion a good argument for the system the way it is. In Oct 2017, 50k had gotten a griffin right after launch so that sets a lower limit on the numbers that have PoF. The actual numbers of players that have PoF is much higher. 2585 players who managed to get enough sigils to finish this armor set isn’t very many at all.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Colly.4073" said:Has Anet even hinted they are going to do something about this or not? I refuse to give all my hard earned gold to some rich prat who wants to rip people off, none of my money will be going to Gems either if anet thinks that this is ok and does nothing.

You do understand that the current price is based on current supply and demand right?

The initial bought up Sigils have already left the market ages ago. You are literally calling every player who puts up Sigils for purchase "rich prat" when all people are doing is offering their loot at market price.

To answer your question: Arenanet has made absolutely no statement about this situation and they did not address it with the Tuesday patch showing that even if it is a concern to them, it is not critical enough to address in the short term.

[Holykitten.3064]

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:In 4 days

Requiem: Experiment 6 (Full completion of CoS Requiem)- (5 Sigils needed)

Completed by 2,585 (Increase of 360 accounts

x 5 sigils = 1800 sigils)

That’s not even 100 accounts a day getting this completed.

I don’t consider that rate of completion a good argument for the system the way it is. In Oct 2017,

50k

had gotten a griffin right after launch so that sets a lower limit on the numbers that have PoF. The actual numbers of players that have PoF is much higher. 2585 players who managed to get enough sigils to finish this armor set isn’t very many at all.

I love how you skim over the fact that only 784 accounts have done Requiem: Experiment 1 in those four days. You know, the one that costs 5 Ectoplasms, 20 Watchwork Sprockets and 0 Sigils.

From September 28th:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/698314#Comment_698314The Convergence of Sorrow I: Elegy had been completed by 15,212. It's now been completed by 18,396, a 3,184 increase of accounts in 9 Days. Not alot right, to say it's a cheap collection... That needs to be done before even starting CoS: Requiem...

[Dreddo.9865]

@Haleydawn.3764 said:The supply looks sufficient. Are you taking into account the sigils that don't enter the Trading Post, or the Sigils straight up sold to buy orders? No? Didn't think so.Where do you get the conclusion that the supply looks sufficient? I wrote that for an item that was at '2 and a half silvers' just a few weeks ago, maintaining a price of 13g (11 gold buy order) means that the demand is quite high and the supply provided is still low. Price is an indication of it. If the supply was 'sufficient' then that would be shown into a price drop which it's not happening. And knowing the sources available to the sigil it is unlikely this will happen anytime soon.

About the numbers you are presenting to us it is another indication of how slowly things move because of this 'sigil situation'.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:In 4 days

Requiem: Experiment 6 (Full completion of CoS Requiem)- (5 Sigils needed)

Completed by 2,585 (Increase of 360 accounts

x 5 sigils = 1800 sigils)

That’s not even 100 accounts a day getting this completed.

I don’t consider that rate of completion a good argument for the system the way it is. In Oct 2017,

50k

had gotten a griffin right after launch so that sets a lower limit on the numbers that have PoF. The actual numbers of players that have PoF is much higher. 2585 players who managed to get enough sigils to finish this armor set isn’t very many at all.

I love how you skim over the fact that only 784 accounts have done Requiem: Experiment 1 in those four days. You know, the one that costs 5 Ectoplasms, 20 Watchwork Sprockets and

0 Sigils

.

From September 28th:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/698314#Comment_698314

The Convergence of Sorrow I: Elegy had been completed by 15,212. It's now been completed by 18,396, a

3,184

increase of accounts in

9 Days

. Not alot right, to say it's a cheap collection...

You can count me as someone who own PoF and haven’t started it either. Once I heard about how much it would cost I put off beginning it. I've seen the price of the sigils discussed in map chat a time or two so there’s undoubtedly others who haven’t touched it for that reason also.

At the launch of PoF 50k players paid 250 gold to get a griffin, yet not even 3000 have this armor. The total completion and the completion rate is very low for a feature (new armor and specifically, light armor pants) that so many ask for repeatedly.

[Pirindolo.9427]

@"hugo.4705" said:... You clearly haven't understood my post, I introduce it by "why" to add my answers after, I'm not wondering why.

As you haven't understood mine.We deserve Anet's opinion at the very least. That's all.

[Holykitten.3064]

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@Haleydawn.3764 said:The supply looks sufficient. Are you taking into account the sigils that don't enter the Trading Post, or the Sigils straight up sold to buy orders? No? Didn't think so.Where do you get the conclusion that the supply looks sufficient? I wrote that for an item that was at '2 and a half silvers' just a few weeks ago, maintaining a price of 13g (11 gold buy order) means that the demand is quite high and the supply provided is still low. Price is an indication of it. If the supply was 'sufficient' then that would be shown into a price drop which it's not happening. And knowing the sources available to the sigil it is unlikely this will happen anytime soon.

Again, you're processing information of the Price on the TP, not the Sigils that do not even enter the Trading Post. We don't know those stats so i wont comment on it.

About the numbers you are presenting to us it is another indication of how slowly things move because of this 'sigil situation'.

And you think that Anet didn't plan that? I beg to differ tbh. I think it's all intentional to slow the majority of players down, extending content. You might not like it, but that's what I believe has happened. (My opinion). It's not blocking people though, otherwise we wouldn't see numbers increase in collections Requiem Experiment: 3,4 and 5.

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:At the launch of PoF 50k players paid 250 gold to get a griffin, yet not even 3000 have this armor. The total completion and the completion rate is very low for a feature (new armor and specifically, light armor pants) that so many ask for repeatedly.

25k had the griffon in the first 2 weeks. not 50k. Even on gw2efficiency 79,466 have done Open Skies: On wings and a Prayer, the final achievement in unlocking the Griffon. These stats are very low considering how long the Griffon has been ingame, and since not many players are using efficiency.In keeping with gw2efficiency stats though, only 50,606 accounts have done the story step 'A Shattered Nation', the one that even gets you to Jahai Bluffs and sets you on the track for these achievements. (You get an achievement for just completing this story step, so is it is applicable to how many has gained access to CoS: Elegy and Requiem.)

As always, the Minority of the forum population has a problem. Not the majority of the player base.

[Pirindolo.9427]

Oh, for those ppl that say that, since there have been always 25 or more sigils on sale, everyone had the chance to finish the collection: NO.

At the prices that the 25+ sigils have been, are, and will be listed in the TP, the majority of the players that have an interest in finishing the collection, can't do it, because they don't have enough money for it. So yes, there is a supply (low supply) problem.

[hugo.4705]

@Pirindolo.9427 said:

@"hugo.4705" said:... You clearly haven't understood my post, I introduce it by "why" to add my answers after, I'm not wondering why.

As you haven't understood mine.We deserve Anet's opinion at the very least. That's all.

Agreed with you on this, we need Anet opinion. PS. I do my best, If you aren't clear, you aren't clear. You seek something where they are nothing to find instead of simply ignoring my answer, was just an hypothesis like anyone else commenting on the reason.

[Dreddo.9865]

@Haleydawn.3764 said:Again, you're processing information of the Price on the TP, not the Sigils that do not even enter the Trading Post. We don't know those stats so i wont comment on it.And you think that Anet didn't plan that? I beg to differ tbh. I think it's all intentional to slow the majority of players down, extending content. You might not like it, but that's what I believe has happened. (My opinion). It's not blocking people though, otherwise we wouldn't see numbers increase in collections Requiem Experiment: 3,4 and 5.Actually you concluded a 'sufficient supply' while the price in the TP is a clear indication of the exact opposite thing. Then you hypothesize on Anet intention while after 1,1k posts we are all uncertain of it - was it by design, was it a flaw in the design? No one really knows.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@Haleydawn.3764 said:The supply looks sufficient. Are you taking into account the sigils that don't enter the Trading Post, or the Sigils straight up sold to buy orders? No? Didn't think so.Where do you get the conclusion that the supply looks sufficient? I wrote that for an item that was at '2 and a half silvers' just a few weeks ago, maintaining a price of 13g (11 gold buy order) means that the demand is quite high and the supply provided is still low. Price is an indication of it. If the supply was 'sufficient' then that would be shown into a price drop which it's not happening. And knowing the sources available to the sigil it is unlikely this will happen anytime soon.

About the numbers you are presenting to us it is another indication of how

slowly

things move because of this 'sigil situation'.

You are confusing 2 different things:

A.) The first is having enough supply to offer something at the price YOU want.

B.) The second is the amount of supply required to allow or disallow something to be available.

A price of 11-13 gold says nothing about if supply is sufficient or not. It simply states where supply and demand meet. Yes, this might be way higher than where YOU want it to be. The only number we have to judge if supply has been sufficient is based off of offered supply on the TP. This has not dropped to 0 or low enough to at any point in time deny players access to the Sigil.

@Dreddo.9865 said:Where do you get the conclusion that the supply looks sufficient? I wrote that for an item that was at '2 and a half silvers' just a few weeks ago, maintaining a price of 13g (11 gold buy order) means that the demand is quite high and the supply provided is still low.

Again, the 2 silver price was back when supply and demand met at a different equilibrium (actually due to a bottom fixed price, they met above where the price would have been). All the increase in price shows is that something change, in this case mostly the demand side. Now you can argue that YOU want the price to remain at 2 silver, that has nothing to do with supply being sufficient or not. That is YOUR personal desire and demand for a certain amount of supply.

EDIT:At no point in time were Sigils unavailable. Thus supply was always sufficient.

There were points in time (and still are) where supply is lower than many want it to be, thus pushing price to a value where many are not willing to pay it.

Those 2 issues are not identical and should not be confused.

In this case saying that supply was unavailable for players to complete the collection is hyperbole. The correct phrasing would be: supply was to low (or insufficient) for some players to be allowed to acquire Sigils at their desired price (since there are players willing to pay the price).

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@Haleydawn.3764 said:The supply looks sufficient. Are you taking into account the sigils that don't enter the Trading Post, or the Sigils straight up sold to buy orders? No? Didn't think so.Where do you get the conclusion that the supply looks sufficient? I wrote that for an item that was at '2 and a half silvers' just a few weeks ago, maintaining a price of 13g (11 gold buy order) means that the demand is quite high and the supply provided is still low. Price is an indication of it. If the supply was 'sufficient' then that would be shown into a price drop which it's not happening. And knowing the sources available to the sigil it is unlikely this will happen anytime soon.

About the numbers you are presenting to us it is another indication of how

slowly

things move because of this 'sigil situation'.

In less that three weeks since patch, only gw2efficiency users (so in reality these numbers are probably significantly higher) have spent a number of sigils four times the initial TP supply on the collection. Approx 80 000 sigils have been spent, a bit more than 20 000 were on the TP before the patch.

Clearly, these 60 000 sigils come from somewhere. Not very likely that they'd all be from horders saving every superior sigil, so probably they are mostly new supply. This would indicate that upwards of 20 000 sigils per week enter the game currently.

[Syrus.2174]

@Tanner Blackfeather.6509 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@"Haleydawn.3764" said:The supply looks sufficient. Are you taking into account the sigils that don't enter the Trading Post, or the Sigils straight up sold to buy orders? No? Didn't think so.Where do you get the conclusion that the supply looks sufficient? I wrote that for an item that was at '2 and a half silvers' just a few weeks ago, maintaining a price of 13g (11 gold buy order) means that the demand is quite high and the supply provided is still low. Price is an indication of it. If the supply was 'sufficient' then that would be shown into a price drop which it's not happening. And knowing the sources available to the sigil it is unlikely this will happen anytime soon.

About the numbers you are presenting to us it is another indication of how

slowly

things move because of this 'sigil situation'.

In less that three weeks since patch,

only gw2efficiency users

(so in reality these numbers are probably significantly higher) have spent a number of sigils

four times

the initial TP supply on the collection. Approx 80 000 sigils have been spent, a bit more than 20 000 were on the TP before the patch.

Clearly, these

60 000

sigils come from

somewhere

. Not very likely that they'd all be from horders saving every superior sigil, so probably they are mostly

new

supply. This would indicate that upwards of 20 000 sigils per week enter the game currently.

A lot were probably also added by the people who had leveling scrolls, tomes and such. But those supplies also don't refill quickly. Especially since you need 62 tomes to get the sigil.

I wonder why Anet themselves doesn't realize that this isn't just a bad design choice and annoying people, but it also hurts their game: people rush through the new content, because they have to, to not be at a huge disadvantage, and then get bored more quickly - likely not playing until the next content arrives.

I don't understand how people can argue this is fine. It is a horrible design choice, something that just looks like someone did not put a spark of thought into whether this would crash the market of a very limited ressource or not. As if someone just went "hey, that name fits, let's use it, easier than adding a new ressource that is acquired through other means". It does give me the feeling, that the people who argue that it isn't a problem, either had a gain from it, just don't care about it, because they don't go for such things. No idea why you are in this discussion then, especially if you don't bring good arguments as to why this is ok. Just because there are currently amounts of this "ressource", which would allow some people to get the achievement, imagine if they all were priced at 10'000 gold because the actual replenishing supply was so low, that these were the last available? It's about having this be realistically completable - and about the seemingly unintended price tag that was put on it. I assume Anet looked at it before hand and saw the price be around 60-70 gold, as the sigils were not worth anything, I doubt they expected the sigils to soar up to 15 gold almost, putting the price tag for those who did NOT rush the content, who wanted to take it at a normal and fun pace, at almost 7 time the "intended" price.In other words, those who already don't have as much time to play the game, or those who couldn't play on the release day, and maybe even those who do spend more time actually playing the game, as they take their time with the content, were punished for that. If ANet intended the price to be up where it is now, why not just make it like that FOR EVERYONE? Equally.Besides - it's a SIGIL, not a crafting ressource. And why 25? Why not just one per item? What was the point behind this? Did no-one at ANet think about what they were doing, putting the achievement in the game this way?

This is really frustrating me, and the thought that this might happen again really kind of takes a bit of fun out of the game.Do I really have to rush the next episode just so I don't have to give an arm or a leg to complete an achievement others might get "practically for free"?

The price of the sigil was so low, someone could have just gone and bought up the whole market by themselves. Just think about that.Think about how that is fair.

(And I'm personally still so far from the epsisode, as I do the story as I feel like it, and quite slowly, that the price will probably have gone done considerably by the time I get there. The overall issue still bothers me greatly, as I feel pushed into rushing everything. I'm used to being able to take my time in GW2, do things at the pace I wanted, without being at a huge disadvantage.)

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's speculation, but I'm game.

That's their decision. The TP doesn't care what reason people do or don't buy mats and that reason is completely transparent to a buyer or seller. The barrier to purchase is irrelevant. If anything, we more practical types thank players that exclude themselves for emotional reasons. If people want to exclude themselves because of how they feel instead of what they want, then I question their motives and expectations; it's an empty gesture ... the market works regardless.

It's a game. If you're not playing it for fun -- an emotional reason -- you're doing it wrong . . .

That aside, you've failed to answer the question and instead raised another. Regardless of how you

feel

about ppl removing themselves from the market, the fact remains that the supply they would have consumed remains on the tp, and if it didn't whether enough supply would exist is an open question that the numbers indicate would be answered in the negative. Which would mean there is not sufficient supply of sigils, which was the question posed. You chose not to address this and instead raised another issue of whether the market is working, which of course it is . . .

The reason I 'failed' to answer that question is because I don't know the answer ... but you don't either, even though you pretend you do. You keep throwing around the idea the supply is insufficient ... you have no idea if that's true or not. You don't have the data to make that statement.

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's speculation, but I'm game.

That's their decision. The TP doesn't care what reason people do or don't buy mats and that reason is completely transparent to a buyer or seller. The barrier to purchase is irrelevant. If anything, we more practical types thank players that exclude themselves for emotional reasons. If people want to exclude themselves because of how they feel instead of what they want, then I question their motives and expectations; it's an empty gesture ... the market works regardless.

It's a game. If you're not playing it for fun -- an emotional reason -- you're doing it wrong . . .

That aside, you've failed to answer the question and instead raised another. Regardless of how you

feel

about ppl removing themselves from the market, the fact remains that the supply they would have consumed remains on the tp, and if it didn't whether enough supply would exist is an open question that the numbers indicate would be answered in the negative. Which would mean there is not sufficient supply of sigils, which was the question posed. You chose not to address this and instead raised another issue of whether the market is working, which of course it is . . .

No one anywhere in this thread has posited that the market has failed. Ppl who arrived early were able to purchase all of the available stock of sigils. In the time since, they may or may not have all been relisted, perhaps or perhaps not in a manner that artificially restricted supply in an effort to increase profit, and any of that behavior would fall within the confines of a 'working market'. But if you've built a machine that is discovered to grind your consumers to a pulp during its operation, it is insufficient to point out that it is working as designed . . .

Supposing instead that the market had failed in some way and prevented the early draining of the supply of sigils that actually would have prevented one of the problems the collection has created. So the fact that the market is working is actually a problem in this case, if you would rather address that than the issues at hand . . .

That is because Obtena is conveniently working off the market after the flip occurred and price and supply were/ are what it is now.. and fixating on the price.Price is just one barrier, supply is another.. not everyone chooses to use the trading post to play the game, not everyone has time to farm or flush.. so for many others this collection is going to take a long time to complete, if they ever do.What Obtena still chooses to skirt around is the fairness across the whole playerbase from both a price and availability perspective and that is how ANET have failed their customer once again imo. But a fix now will only serve to throw that unfairness back on those who have already bitten the bullet and paid the TP overlords their coin. There is no fix now, its gone on too long. It is what it is, ANET have likely been able to hook a decent amount of whales I am sure, so all is good I guess.As for early heads up to a few or fast content completers.. they have proven just how gross this game market can be manipulated if needed to be, and I for sure think this was just another element that was utilised to pressure steer gem sales, making money through the game is one thing but there are much fairer ways this could of been achieved.

I'm not skirting the 'fairness' issue because there isn't one; it's not relevant if the TP is fair or not. "being fair" is what you lose so that everyone has access to mats at market prices. It's really not relevant anyways. Even if it's not fair, what do you think Anet will do 6 years into the game? Throw it all away? Again, this isn't an academic problem, it's a practical one. It's not about fair, or price or emotions. It's about if you have gold to by sigils. You make it into things it's not about to win an argument. OK you win ... you're sigils are still going to be whatever the market dictates they are.You again fail to understand what is being said... it's not the TP that is unfair it is the practice of using both the TP and supply deprivation that is unfair... it makes the culmination of time and effort to play through the release worthless if players can neither afford to purchase the sigil by way of either ingame or RL currency or obtain them through normal gameplay unless they care to spend countless hours praying for a lucky streak or burn through tomes over and over to get the single sigil once per 64 levels.These are the unfair practices that makes the content unequal and therefore unfair across the playerbase. The price is now what it is, nothing we do can change that but not everyone chooses pay someone else to play the game for them, especially when the market has been so grossly manipulated. And even if we did there is insufficient stock in the TP to do that or reliable sources of supply to fuel it appropriately to meet obvious demand of a new shiny.... tat is a major barrier for anyone wanting to complete this at any cost.So please stop trying to base this all around your all out support of a manipulated market and especially price... The price is not equal for all therefore this collection is a major step backwards in player fairness and is a seemingly purposeful manipulation of the market is just another tool utilised to fuel gem sale purchases over as long a period of time as possible while maintaining a stranglehold on supply.If you still wish to dispute that supply is the crux of both price and completion delay then maybe your not as good at market economics as you like to portray here... if this were real market trading I am pretty sure that the scale of the inflation that occured almost immediately supported by a known inability to reliably supply the market would likely raise eyebrows and perhaps prompt an investigation into market manipulation maybe even insider trading because the magnitude and speed this occurred alongside known supply/resupply deffeciency by Anet is not market forces working normally but more and more like a forceful use of the market to generate income by way of unfair practices.

EDIT.. lots of typo's due to phat fingas and … mobile keyboard :)

[Obtena.7952]

I see arguments about being unfair again ... MMO is intrinsically unfair in many ways. It's not a reason to change how the game works. TP and how people interact with it isn't about being fair. It's about getting people mats at fair market value. The price isn't meant to be equal for all. It's meant to be what the market dictates (I said that already yes?)