Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]

[Celeste.9135]

You aren't an arenanet employee so you can't claim your opinion to be entirely in line with theirs. Just like I cannot say mine is either. I'm giving my opinion on what I believe to be a way to improve this situation just like you are giving yours as a way of saying there is no way to improve upon it. While I would love to be able to craft every sigil I don't see that coming or really feel it to be necessary, such as dungeon sigils. The rest is rng which I dislike. The issues I mentioned before with fairness, the update being impacted by this is the main concern, not the only one which is why I brought up crafting. But the main concern. I do not appreciate my concerns being belittled down to "you don't like the price" "you want to craft sigils" or "you don't like the tp" when I see this as a complex issue that concerns multiple facets of the game. And I definitely do not appreciate being accused of trying to manipulate forum moderators.

I recognise some rng is a part of gaming but I think it should be minimised where it's not necessary. Especially where achievements are concerned. I really would advise against tying a major living world feature such as this armour to it. I think that people being disadvantaged for this achievement and the set itself by the time it took them to get through it is the antithesis of what GW2 stands for as a game so you can see how for me my views are more in line with what I believe anet's vision for GW2 is. Ultimately whatever changes come or don't that's down to anet to decide. All I wanted to do was add my voice to the crowd who thought this was a bad idea. I don't expect this thread to change what happened in this patch or anet to decide someone's opinion to be the best, but hopefully for everyone's opinions inside to be considered for future updates so that anet can avoid further controversies that take away from their game as a whole.

[Blanche Neige.7241]

@Obtena.7952 said:That doesn't make sense. The TP IS the reasonable option to obtain the sigil ... like any other mat. That's how TP use is encouraged. That's how almost every mat in the game is reasonably obtained for the last 6 years. The whole game is designed so the TP is the first stop to fill your mat list for crafting.

I think we don't play the same game. The reasonnable option to obtain any material is to gather or farm for them. And then craft with those gathered mats what you want.

Buying mats on the TP is a conveniance for those who prefer to pay others to gather and farm mats for them.

[Obtena.7952]

@Blanche Neige.7241 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That doesn't make sense. The TP IS the reasonable option to obtain the sigil ... like any other mat. That's how TP use is encouraged. That's how almost every mat in the game is reasonably obtained for the last 6 years. The whole game is designed so the TP is the first stop to fill your mat list for crafting.

I think we don't play the same game. The reasonnable option to obtain any material is to gather or farm for them. And then craft with those gathered mats what you want.

Buying mats on the TP is a conveniance for those who prefer to pay others to gather and farm mats for them.

That's just not true. You can't farm specific mats. You never could. I know other MMO's work that way, but GW2 doesn't. I mean, if you want to exclude yourself from the system that's setup for you get the specific mats you want, go ahead but make no mistake; there are almost no materials in that you can specifically farm.

@"Dedicant.6820" said:You aren't an arenanet employee so you can't claim your opinion to be entirely in line with theirs.

Wait ... I have observed how this game works for 6 years ... I sure can say that my view aligns with how the game works.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Obtena.7952 said:I see arguments about being unfair again ... MMO is intrinsically unfair in many ways. It's not a reason to change how the game works. TP and how people interact with it isn't about being fair. It's about getting people mats at fair market value. The price isn't meant to be equal for all. It's meant to be what the market dictates (I said that already yes?)

The market did not dictate this it was purposely manipulated and then controlled that is not normal market pressures that is unfair practice.. huge difference and the more you try to defend this as normal practice the more I get suspicious of your reasonings.Fairness of price means all pay the same and in a timescale that suits the individual and by which ever affordable path they choose to take..Such choices are no longer at available, players have no fixed price and as availability of stock is not guaranteed to quell demand it means not all players are able to complete this content collection at a time of their choosing unless they get really, really lucky in the toilet or with their loot drops and salvaging.. otherwise they have to burn more hoops and resources and potentially more gemstore buffs in order to do so.Like I said, price is one thing but the ability to complete the collection is another due to unreliable sources of supply for everyone.Prices adjust every second within the market, we all know this because supply and demand work hand in hand.. but when one side of that equation is not remotely able to allow the market to adjust freely then unfair market manipulation will always exist, and that fault lies squarely at the feet of ANET, the TP overlords are merely the tolls chosen to push their own agenda on this collection and there is simply no defence you can throw out at that fact.. supply and demand control both price and time and both are being manipulated for a higher purpose.. sad thing is it did not need to be this way for that higher purpose to still exist. This is all about extending the push for gems as long as the demand can be suitably controlled before it wavers either naturally by completion over time or by loss of interest.. either way many players are going to be left unable to complete this content for some time to come yet unless you can magic up the millions of sigils, not a few thousand here and there, needed to fulfil even a very, very conservative stab at active account numbers interested in obtaining this new shiny....

[Obtena.7952]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I see arguments about being unfair again ... MMO is intrinsically unfair in many ways. It's not a reason to change how the game works. TP

and

how people interact with it isn't about being fair. It's about getting people mats at fair market value. The price isn't meant to be equal for all. It's meant to be what the market dictates (I said that already yes?)

The market did not dictate this it was purposely manipulated and then controlled that is not normal market pressures that is unfair practice.. huge difference and the more you try to defend this as normal practice the more I get suspicious of your reasonings.Fairness of price means all pay the same and in a timescale that suits the individual and by which ever affordable path they choose to take..

That's a nice sentiment, but that's not how this game is designed or worked. It never has been.

[Blanche Neige.7241]

@Obtena.7952 said:That's just not true. You can't farm specific mats. You never could.

I was able to gather and farm most of the material I needed for the 4 legendary weapons I own.

Here is how to do it :1 - locate a mob that drop the desired material you need.2 - kill that type of mob until you get all the mats you need.

[Obtena.7952]

@Blanche Neige.7241 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's just not true. You can't farm specific mats. You never could.

I was able to gather and farm most of the material I needed for the 4 legendary weapons I own.

Here is how to do it :1 - locate a mob that drop the desired material you need.2 - kill that type of mob until you get all the mats you need.

Sure ... and if you want to farm this sigil, you can do what is needed for that as well. But make no mistake, it's your choice to take the long road, just like you chose to do with your legendaries. Nothing stops you or anyone else from doing that, but the TP is for exchange of gold for mats and your farmed legendary experience doesn't change that. There is a reason you get random drops from mobs; the TP is there to exchange mats you don't need for mats you need to facilitate a healthy economy. The whole game is designed around that idea. Your decision to exclude yourself from that isn't proof that the TP is just a convenience.

[Blanche Neige.7241]

How amusing. First you pretend there is no ways to farm specific mats.

And now, you pretend there is….

I think it's time to stop feeding the troll you probably are.

[Celeste.9135]

Since you responded with that. Wait... you are still not privy to internal anet information and cannot know their plans or intentions... observations do not matter in that regard all you can do is assume not express your opinion as fact.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Dedicant.6820" said:Since you responded. Wait... you are still not privy to internal anet information and cannot know their plans or intentions... observations do not matter in that regard all you can do is assume not express your opinion as fact.

Tell yourself whatever you want. If you don't think the game works to how Anet intends, I'm not sure what to tell you. It's not hard to conclude that if it works a specific way in the game and you can observe it working like that for almost all cases for a long period of time, it's like that because Anet intends it.

@Blanche Neige.7241 said:How amusing. First you pretend there is no ways to farm specific mats.

And now, you pretend there is….

I think it's time to stop feeding the troll you probably are.

Probably. I mean, if you call farming 'specific' mats getting a fractional chance to get that mat from a long list of mats from a mob in a random drop, then I guess we have different ideas of what specific means. /shrug. Again, if you want to exclude yourself from using the TP to get your mats and conclude from that it's there for convenience, I don't think we are speaking the same language. Being convenient doesn't mean people don't use it to get their mats for crafting.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I see arguments about being unfair again ... MMO is intrinsically unfair in many ways. It's not a reason to change how the game works. TP

and

how people interact with it isn't about being fair. It's about getting people mats at fair market value. The price isn't meant to be equal for all. It's meant to be what the market dictates (I said that already yes?)

The market did not dictate this it was purposely manipulated and then controlled that is not normal market pressures that is unfair practice.. huge difference and the more you try to defend this as normal practice the more I get suspicious of your reasonings.Fairness of price means all pay the same and in a timescale that suits the individual and by which ever affordable path they choose to take..

That's a nice sentiment, but that's not how this game is designed or worked. It never has been.

The game was not designed for purposeful manipulation either, that is not how the market is supposed to work.. if the supply is viable then the market will adjust by demand and vice versa... when one of those elements is not viable it allows for purposeful manipulation.. and in this case gross manipulation .. unless you think its fair, normal market practice to see an arbitrary items priced at a few silver see all available stock within the market swallowed up and reappear at around 13gold in a heartbeat as soon as the content went live...then offer no other reliable or viable resupply of the market to allow it to work as it's intended. That is an unfathomable rate of inflation that has been allowed to happen and continue to exist for the simple purpose of pressure steering .. please keep trying to convince us all the game is designed to be unfairly manipulated please, because it is not, that is not how a free market works at all, a free market has checks and balances in place to help protect against these kinds of unfair practices.Like I said even if we were all happy to pay whatever price the market says it should be, manipulated or not.. there simply is no way to satisfy that fairly because the market or the game as a whole cannot generate sufficient numbers of the sigil at any given time, so many have to wait in line until they can be. That is why a fixed price for the sigil from a guaranteed source quashes all possible scope of unfairness and places the choice of how and when a player chooses to complete the collection upon them not anyone else.If a player chooses to fund the purchase of the sigils via gems conversion or in game wealth then so be it.. ANET win and wealth gets stripped from the game as it should be, but it also means players can do this when they like in order to complete... that is not how it is no matter how you call that fair.

[Celeste.9135]

You are the one who is telling yourself that you know things you cannot know. A conclusion based off anecdotal observation cannot be passed off as fact.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Dedicant.6820" said:You are the one who is telling yourself that you know things you cannot know. A conclusion based off anecdotal observation cannot be passed off as fact.

So it's not a fact that for 6 years, you can buy mats off the TP to craft? So the TP is a big mistake that Anet didn't intend to happen? That's awesome.

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I see arguments about being unfair again ... MMO is intrinsically unfair in many ways. It's not a reason to change how the game works. TP

and

how people interact with it isn't about being fair. It's about getting people mats at fair market value. The price isn't meant to be equal for all. It's meant to be what the market dictates (I said that already yes?)

The market did not dictate this it was purposely manipulated and then controlled that is not normal market pressures that is unfair practice.. huge difference and the more you try to defend this as normal practice the more I get suspicious of your reasonings.Fairness of price means all pay the same and in a timescale that suits the individual and by which ever affordable path they choose to take..

That's a nice sentiment, but that's not how this game is designed or worked. It never has been.

The game was not designed for purposeful manipulation either, that is not how the market is supposed to work.. if the supply is viable then the market will adjust by demand and vice versa... when one of those elements is not viable it allows for purposeful manipulation.. and in this case gross manipulation .. unless you think its fair, normal market practice to see an arbitrary items priced at a few silver see all available stock within the market swallowed up and reappear at around 13gold in a heartbeat as soon as the content went live...then offer no other reliable or viable resupply of the market to allow it to work as it's intended. That is an unfathomable rate of inflation that has been allowed to happen and continue to exist for the simple purpose of pressure steering .. please keep trying to convince us all the game is designed to be unfairly manipulated please, because it is not, that is not how a free market works at all, a free market has checks and balances in place to help protect against these kinds of unfair practices.Like I said even if we were all happy to pay whatever price the market says it should be, manipulated or not.. there simply is no way to satisfy that fairly because the market or the game as a whole cannot generate sufficient numbers of the sigil at any given time, so many have to wait in line until they can be. That is why a fixed price for the sigil from a guaranteed source quashes all possible scope of unfairness and places the choice of how and when a player chooses to complete the collection upon them not anyone else.

You don't know that. I can't see how Anet WOULDN'T anticipate it. How else would the market price respond to the increased demand? ... the re-normalization of pricing for supply and demand fluctuations is the fundamental function of the TP and it's clearly intended that players are responsible for doing that re-normalization.

[Ol Nik.2518]

@Obtena.7952 said:That a insincere complaint then because farming specific mats on your own has never been the primary way to get mats in this game. (emphasis added)This statement is simply not true. There is a rather long list of account bound mats that cannot be bought on TP and have to be farmed on one's own. Ascended gear is a great example of this. One has to farm mats to craft any generation of ascended weapons or armour. It is not even the primary way for getting Pile of Bloodstone Dust, Dragonite Ore, Empyreal Fragment and map specific ascended mats such as Ley Line Spark, Pile of Auric Dust, or Bottle of Airship Oil. It is the only way.

Unfortunately, most of your arguments in this thread are based on generalisations with no factual support. You keep saying that everything works as intended, however, using your own argument, we do not have neither data nor official statements proving your point of view. If something has been there for 6 years, it does not necessarily mean that it is the way it is intended to be. It might also mean that the developers do not have manpower or expertise to fix it.

[Celeste.9135]

And yet again you attempt the claim that I somehow think the tp is bad or a mistake. Are you telling me in 6 years anet has never had balance issues, bugs or corrections to be made to GW2 systems, events and achievements? Those things are a part of every game and are definitely part of the history of GW2. This situation could be poor judgement on their part they are not infallible and you have no idea what their intentions were. You were not in the room when the sigil of nullification was chosen, you have no authority to claim anything as factually functional as arena net intended because you have no way of knowing if this outcome was their intention.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Dedicant.6820" said:And yet again you attempt the claim that I somehow think the tp is bad or a mistake. Are you telling me in 6 years anet has never had balance issues, bugs or corrections to be made to GW2 systems, events and achievements? Those things are a part of every game and are definitely part of the history of GW2. This situation could be poor judgement on their part they are not infallible and you have no idea what their intentions were. You were not in the room when the sigil of nullification was chosen, you have no authority to claim anything as factually functional as arena net intended because you have no way of knowing if this outcome was their intention.

See ... it has and Anet fixes those ... yet the TP doesn't change ... HUM maybe because it's working as intended ... just a hunch.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That a insincere complaint then because

farming specific mats on your own has never been the primary way to get mats in this game

. (emphasis added)This statement is simply not true. There is a rather long list of account bound mats that cannot be bought on TP and have to be farmed on one's own. Ascended gear is a great example of this. One has to farm mats to craft any generation of ascended weapons or armour. It is not even the primary way for getting Pile of Bloodstone Dust, Dragonite Ore, Empyreal Fragment and map specific ascended mats such as Ley Line Spark, Pile of Auric Dust, or Bottle of Airship Oil. It is the only way.

Unfortunately, most of your arguments in this thread are based on generalisations with no factual support. You keep saying that everything works as intended, however, using your own argument, we do not have neither data nor official statements proving your point of view. If something has been there for 6 years, it does not necessarily mean that it is the way it is intended to be. It might also mean that the developers do not have manpower or expertise to fix it.

Those comparisons don't make sense ... those are ACCOUNT-BOUND mats >< Mats on the TP are NOT.

Yes, I have no factual support that the TP is how Anet intends for people to exchange mats ... other the fact that it has been in place for 6 years allowing people to exchange mats. Just wow guys.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Dedicant.6820" said:You are the one who is telling yourself that you know things you cannot know. A conclusion based off anecdotal observation cannot be passed off as fact.

So it's not a fact that for 6 years, you can buy mats off the TP to craft? So the TP is a big mistake that Anet didn't intend to happen? That's awesome.

Nice attempt at skirting the issues here.. again your strawman isn't washing here.. the trading post an our ability to buy mats isn't the issue as well you know

[Gop.8713]

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@"Dedicant.6820" said:I buy materials on the tp all the time... when I don't feel like collecting them myself or I need more than the 250 limit. The issue here is there is no reasonable way to obtain the sigil yourself. If every one of your responses is gonna be based around some false assumption that I hate the trading post and everyone who uses... when I in fact use it almost every time I play GW2 you may need to think again.

Like Superior Sigil of Force/Air/Energy (Meta sigils accross PvE/WvW). But why is the 'Sigil-not-able-to-be-crafted' problem,

all of a sudden

, a problem? People quite happy paying TP for these sigils, for multiple characters on many accounts, but now there's another sigil in the same boat, it's a problem? I don't get that. I've never seen a thread, ever, in my 6 years playing and forum-ing, stating that all sigils should have a crafting recipe.

I've seen it come up from time to time, but it's not surprising that different ppl would have had different interactions and read different threads . . .

I do think you're missing the point though, which is that creating a large demand for a sigil with low availability and tying it to story content was a mistake, and making it craftable is one of the possible solutions . . .

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Dedicant.6820" said:You are the one who is telling yourself that you know things you cannot know. A conclusion based off anecdotal observation cannot be passed off as fact.

So it's not a fact that for 6 years, you can buy mats off the TP to craft? So the TP is a big mistake that Anet didn't intend to happen? That's awesome.

Nice attempt at skirting the issues here.. again your strawman isn't washing here.. the trading post an our ability to buy mats isn't the issue as well you know.

Anyhow.. after 29 pages and no response from ANET says enough imo.No fix can really fix the issues now anyway because to implement one would likely only turn this back on itself and frustrate those already hooked and landed in the net.Best thing as I said is for players to think hard as to whether they wish to feed this kind of poor form.. voting with your wallet is the only logical argument that is going to be considered now.

[Obtena.7952]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Dedicant.6820" said:You are the one who is telling yourself that you know things you cannot know. A conclusion based off anecdotal observation cannot be passed off as fact.

So it's not a fact that for 6 years, you can buy mats off the TP to craft? So the TP is a big mistake that Anet didn't intend to happen? That's awesome.

Nice attempt at skirting the issues here.. again your strawman isn't washing here.. the trading post an our ability to buy mats isn't the issue as well you know

See, this is not honest IMO. The fact that it's difficult to farm the sigil yourself is actually directly related to how the TP works. This is why it's REALLY easy to see that Anet encourages people to use the TP to obtain their mats ... because they DESIGN the game to favour it. You just don't like that approach, which is strange because the WHOLE game is designed to encourage TP interaction, not only this particular example.

[Tyson.5160]

Crystalline Dust, ectos, AMA gems. These too also skyrocketed in price. Wait a second, that’s odd.

[Celeste.9135]

When did anet fix the issues with legendary armour? With the clipping on charr and asura models? Why is it that today necromancer minions still bug out with mounts. Why are there still several broken events in the core open world that glitch out to this day. These are only a few examples off the top of my head. There is a whole host of issues with the game that have not been addressed or fixed. HUM

[Syrus.2174]

Please, if you do not understand the underlying issue the people are complaining about, stop trying to argue with arguments that only reflect a problem that you assume people have with it.

If price was an issue per se, I'd not be running around using a dye that cost almost 800 gold at some point. If price was an issue, I'd not use a legendary, I'd not buy skins in the shop, I'd not run ascended armor. The price is just the symptom. The issue is different and it's been stated over an over again.Encouraging mindless rushing through content cannot be in ANet's interest. This ruins the game.It ruins the game when you are at such a disadvantage to others, just because some stupid design choice made a ressource with a very unsustainable supply a major part of something many people would have interest in. Had they made it require a commodity, bought, or better even, acquired by playing the map, costing, for example, 200 gold and (quite) some map currency, no-one would have complained. Why? Because everyone would have had the same cost. No buying up the market, no sudden 50'000% increase in price of something, and those who just mindlessly rushed wouldn't have had to pay only a 7th of the price of those who came later... and so on.Yes, a slight price increase for a commodity being needed in something new is to be expected. An increase of several thousand percent - something going from utterly worthless, and therefore not having any supply-issues, to becoming needed in a great number, without having even a good way of sustainable supply ... how can people defend such a design choice?

But I fear, ANet is just ignoring this. The more time passes, the more unlikely a change becomes, as by this point, those who did acquire the achievement already, would, if there was a change to it now, be on the fence.And that silence is even more frustrating than the whole issue itself.

[Gop.8713]

@Tyson.5160 said:Crystalline Dust, ectos, AMA gems. These too also skyrocketed in price. Wait a second, that’s odd.

Odd that there aren't threads complaining about those you mean . . ?

It makes sense if you consider that the price is not the issue, but rather the lack of access. Dust, ectos and gems can be purchased on the tp OR produced for yourself through regular play. It's not really odd that such different circumstances would produce different reactions . . .