Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]

[Linken.6345]

This would have been an opportuinity for anet to funnel people into wvw,spvp or dungeons having 5 sigils from 5 diffrent dungeons instead of the nullification.Imo that would have been a better implementation.

[Psientist.6437]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does

NOT

mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

I am absolutely willing to use a nuanced definition of satisfaction where satisfaction isn't an absolute.

[Hitman.5829]

According to wiki page, there are about 26 items that have sigil of nullification and the vast majority of those items are random drops.If the supply is low is because people do not check the value of the items they get. Suppose there are 3000000 players in GW2 and only 1% of the players gets these weapons as drops in 1 week. That is about 30000 sigils in 1 week. There should be enough supply for everyone.

The problem is not supply, the problem is that people just mystic forge them or replace the sigil without knowing its true value.I have been there, I never check the value of an item unless its an item i am not familiar with.

[Obtena.7952]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does

NOT

mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

Even if that's true, that's an even MORE restrictive definition of satisfaction that if used by Anet, would mean nothing would ever get changed.

I mean, you must realize the idea where even a fraction of the content being dissatisfying is an absurd reason for Anet to take action here, even if the overall experience is satisfying. It's a completely irrelevant point anyways; Anet can't please all people with all content all the time. Not doing that is a completely ridiculous reason for them to change anything.

[Gop.8713]

@Hitman.5829 said:According to wiki page, there are about 26 items that have sigil of nullification and the vast majority of those items are random drops.If the supply is low is because people do not check the value of the items they get. Suppose there are 3000000 players in GW2 and only 1% of the players gets these weapons as drops in 1 week. That is about 30000 sigils in 1 week. There should be enough supply for everyone.

The problem is not supply, the problem is that people just mystic forge them or replace the sigil without knowing its true value.I have been there, I never check the value of an item unless its an item i am not familiar with.

I understand what you are trying to say, but the trouble is you just kind of randomly guessed at the odds of having the sigil drop. And even using your numbers, that would mean 7,200 of 300,000 players would have had an opportunity to complete the collection thus far, or 2.4% in six weeks . . .

Ignoring all that and just assuming that your underlying theory is correct, that there are plenty of sigils but players just throw them away without bothering to check their value, that would again just highlight the foolishness of designing a mainline, story-related collection that players should be expected to be able to complete that leaves the tp as the only reliable method of obtaining its requirements . . .

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Hitman.5829 said:According to wiki page, there are about 26 items that have sigil of nullification and the vast majority of those items are random drops.If the supply is low is because people do not check the value of the items they get. Suppose there are 3000000 players in GW2 and only 1% of the players gets these weapons as drops in 1 week. That is about 30000 sigils in 1 week. There should be enough supply for everyone.

The problem is not supply, the problem is that people just mystic forge them or replace the sigil without knowing its true value.I have been there, I never check the value of an item unless its an item i am not familiar with.

Even if your numbers were gospel 30,000 sigils is like 1200 completions.. so if those same 3,000,000 all take a shot , how many weeks do you think are needed to see all those players satisfied... I don't even want to look at my calculator anymore. Of course what you forgot also was the factoring in of salvage rates outside of BL salvage kits and of course to counter that we could then factor in additional luck via the toilet or lets say 1mill burn through their tomes for their own benefit. Still not great reading when you take supply and time factors here.. which is why I have already stated price is not the crux of this issue at all.. time is the killer of all things and I am of the mind players have already started to push back on this malarkey.Question is have ANET managed to get enough out of this to meet their own forecasts, if so then we can expect more of the same going forward because I cannot believe that ANET went about this without strategy and economist forecasting. Everything this game provides has some form of strategy woven into it to generate revenue, which in itself is a good thing if we want to keep playing, but this content is smelling more like bean counter pressure to me rather than a poorly thought through design and lack of oversight.

@Astralporing .. as much as I have disagreed with much of what @Obtena has put out in this thread, I do agree that by saying all ANET got from this is dissatisfaction, is actually really saying all players are dissatisfied with the content or the sigil supply, which is more than likely nowhere near true ... I would imagine there are a few that are highly satisfied with this content and are quietly laughing at us all here, perhaps some of those are in this thread as we type.All we can do now is take a personal view on this content and decide is it really worth it, is worth supporting it or do we simply push back and move on to other things and wait for the next storm in a tea cup to appear on the horizon.Personally I had already decided to curtail my RL spending after the KFT issue, this content just reaffirmed that. I have more than enough in game wealth to of just bought up the remaining sigils I needed or burned through enough tomes to offset using in game or RL coin, but doing so would simply just be saying, this is ok for the game when imo it is not.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Hitman.5829 said:According to wiki page, there are about 26 items that have sigil of nullification and the vast majority of those items are random drops.If the supply is low is because people do not check the value of the items they get. Suppose there are 3000000 players in GW2 and only 1% of the players gets these weapons as drops in 1 week. That is about 30000 sigils in 1 week. There should be enough supply for everyone.

The problem is not supply, the problem is that people just mystic forge them or replace the sigil without knowing its true value.I have been there, I never check the value of an item unless its an item i am not familiar with.Initially i thought that too. Then i checked my own supply of sigils (i salvage my stuff, and keep all of them, i don't vendor any - i have a whole bank tab full of sigils, and another full of runes).

Do you know how many sigils of nullification i collected since the very beginning of the game?

7

@"Obtena.7952" said:I don't get the question "net gain" ... we aren't playing the stock market here and I'm not speculating on the number of people who were or were not satisfied with the content; it's irrelevant ... except when you make absolute statements to 'prove' the implementation was irrational. That simply doesn't make sense to claim that it's irrational because it generates ONLY dissatisfaction and frustrated because it didn't. You assume you speak for everyone that wants the armor; but you don't. For some people, that amount of gold to get something they want isn't a problem. This content, EVEN for people that want the armor, didn't ONLY generate dissatisfaction and frustration ... but I sure as hell believe you think that's true.You're still not getting the point, do you.

the question isn't whether people were satisfied with the armor collection or not. The question is whether using Sigil of Nullification here generated more satisfaction than using other method (like a flat cost item, for example). Can you tell me who, apart from people that profited in the initial sale, actually liked this use of Sigils here? And why? Because all you're saying is that there might be people that liked the whole collection despite the sigil use. Which is completely not the point.

In short: where's the Anet's gain in here, over using another method? I still don't see it. And as far as i see, you don't see it either.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

random note in: at the moment of writing this the price of sigil is around 10g per piece meaning that new skins have about a griffon grade cost in gold in sigils alone.

which is still less than it was just after initial spike so I'd say people "taking their time" may feel rewarded as opposed to those who rushed it paying 25g per piece.... (since someone on prev page claimed they are only punished).

personally myself I am in no hurry to get anything above boots I have got already so I am neither satisfied nor dissatisfied with whole ordeal. By the time I'll care about rest of skins I expect price of sigils to drop heavilly anyway... or I'll get insanely rich in which case I won't care anyway.

[Psientist.6437]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Hitman.5829 said:According to wiki page, there are about 26 items that have sigil of nullification and the vast majority of those items are random drops.If the supply is low is because people do not check the value of the items they get. Suppose there are 3000000 players in GW2 and only 1% of the players gets these weapons as drops in 1 week. That is about 30000 sigils in 1 week. There should be enough supply for everyone.

The problem is not supply, the problem is that people just mystic forge them or replace the sigil without knowing its true value.I have been there, I never check the value of an item unless its an item i am not familiar with.Initially i thought that too. Then i checked my own supply of sigils (i salvage my stuff, and keep all of them, i don't vendor any - i have a whole bank tab full of sigils, and another full of runes).

Do you know how many sigils of nullification i collected since the very beginning of the game?

7

@"Obtena.7952" said:I don't get the question "net gain" ... we aren't playing the stock market here and I'm not speculating on the number of people who were or were not satisfied with the content; it's irrelevant ... except when you make absolute statements to 'prove' the implementation was irrational. That simply doesn't make sense to claim that it's irrational because it generates ONLY dissatisfaction and frustrated because it didn't. You assume you speak for everyone that wants the armor; but you don't. For some people, that amount of gold to get something they want isn't a problem. This content, EVEN for people that want the armor, didn't ONLY generate dissatisfaction and frustration ... but I sure as hell believe you think that's true.You're still not getting the point, do you.

the question isn't whether people were satisfied with the armor collection or not. The question is whether using Sigil of Nullification here generated more satisfaction than using other method (like a flat cost item, for example). Can you tell me who, apart from people that profited in the initial sale, actually

liked

this use of Sigils here? And why? Because all you're saying is that there might be people that liked the whole collection

despite

the sigil use. Which is completely not the point.

In short: where's the Anet's gain in here, over using another method? I still don't see it. And as far as i see, you don't see it either.

You have been here since release and have seen 6 years of Sigil of Nullification. There must be ways to gain from this strategy. Personally I think there are many reasons why the studio employs this strategy.

Demand for gold. The studio facilitates RMT and an increase in the demand for currency is an established way to curb inflation.A demand for gold that won't overshoot or undershoot the player base's valuation of the item the way traditional NPCs items wouldRare and expensive items compel economic activity increasing the production rate of all rewards. The Tyrian economy is always headed toward zero activity.Rare and expensive items generate increased interest from players, some of which will be negative interest

Please don't doubt the benefits and please don't erode our ability to objectively understand the studio's market gating strategy by calling that list a conspiracy theory. Perhaps the worst thing we can say about the studio's strategy is that it can be objectively cheesy. Perhaps objectively creepy as well, cash for RNG isn't quite cash for time.

[Tyson.5160]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:Personally I had already decided to curtail my RL spending after the KFT issue, this content just reaffirmed that. I have more than enough in game wealth to of just bought up the remaining sigils I needed or burned through enough tomes to offset using in game or RL coin, but doing so would simply just be saying, this is ok for the game when imo it is not.

I’m in the same boat and haven’t bought any gems and refuse to buy gems, until I’m satisfied that this sort of thing won’t happen again. If this a common pattern then I won’t bother with RL spending. I will get the armor if I naturally obtain the sigils, but that is about it.

[Dante.1763]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does

NOT

mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

Even if that's true, that's an even MORE restrictive definition of satisfaction that if used by Anet, would mean nothing would ever get changed.

I mean, you must realize the idea where even a

fraction

of the content being dissatisfying is an absurd reason for Anet to take action here, even if the overall experience is satisfying. It's a completely irrelevant point anyways; Anet can't please all people with all content all the time. Not doing that is a completely ridiculous reason for them to change anything.

You again, are half correct. They cant please all people all the time. What they can and should do is look at the means of obtainment for items before shoving it into a collection, if it has multiple means(drops, crafting, trading post, mystic forge.) its alright, some people may not be happy because they see it as having to do one of those, but far fewer will be displeased if an item can be obtained with the choice of all of those, unlike this items choices(Using tones of tomes which if you only really do PVE you dont have a ton of those laying around, i have 250 and i havent used any in years, Mystic forge which is an absurd "means" to obtain a sigil, and exotic drops which not everyone is stupid lucky to obtain those.)

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:random note in: at the moment of writing this the price of sigil is around 10g per piece meaning that new skins have about a griffon grade cost in gold in sigils alone.

which is still less than it was just after initial spike so I'd say people "taking their time" may feel rewarded as opposed to those who rushed it paying 25g per piece.... (since someone on prev page claimed they are only punished).Those that rushed it paid 2-3 silver per piece. 15g was for those that were late.

@Psientist.6437 said:You have been here since release and have seen 6 years of Sigil of Nullification.Yes. that is one of the reasons why i think they messed up. That would be consistent with the past history.

Personally I think there are many reasons why the studio employs this strategy.

Demand for gold. The studio facilitates RMT and an increase in the demand for currency is an established way to curb inflation.Not in this case. For that you need either high volume, or cost. In the case of Nullifications, volume is small (the fact that supply is so restricted that only a small number of players per time unit can even complete the collection is one of the primary problems here), and the cost of each individual Sigil is not that high compared to the volume traded. The impact on inflation is minuscule compared to other methods Anet is already (succesfully, and with no associated player negativity) using.

A demand for gold that won't overshoot or undershoot the player base's valuation of the item the way traditional NPCs items wouldAt the same time severely limiting the number of people able to spend that gold? Don't think so. Besides, see above.

Rare and expensive items compel economic activity increasing the production rate of all rewards.There is only one way in which sigils can be produced that is really affected by players. Levelling rewards. This incidentally increases production rate of black lion keys. Somehow i don't think that decreasing gemshop sales of those is something Anet wants.

Rare and expensive items generate increased interest from players, some of which will be negative interestIn this case the interest is on Sigils, not Requiem. If anything, they pull the interest away from the armor. And let's be honest, Sigils are not Legendaries, they won't generate positive interest no matter how you spin it.

So, in short, if they wanted to accomplish the goals you stated, they decided upon a really bad method to do so. Which would be weird, considering they already have a lot of working ones, that are not only way more effective and reliable, but also do not bring as much unwanted attention.

[Psientist.6437]

The studio can not 'mess up' for six years and have that 'mess up' be that severe of a 'mess up'. Your entire argument, that the studio is simply incompetent, tries to stand on an impossible proposition.

The use of sigils of null doesn't have to be a glowing example of the benefits I listed, just a good enough example for the studio to think it is worth adding to the population of all other examples of market gating.

I will help you hold the position that the use of severe market gating in this collection erodes the Tyrian narrative of heroic sacrifice and achievement, but you can not hold the position that the studio is simply stupid and keeps making lethal mistakes. You may try, but you won't be successful and trying to erodes everyone's ability to make a clear decision.

[Dante.1763]

@"Psientist.6437" said:The studio can not 'mess up' for six years and have that 'mess up' be that severe of a 'mess up'. Your entire argument, that the studio is simply incompetent, tries to stand on an impossible proposition.

The use of sigils of null doesn't have to be a glowing example of the benefits I listed, just a good enough example for the studio to think it is worth adding to the population of all other examples of market gating.

I will help you hold the position that the use of severe market gating in this collection erodes the Tyrian narrative of heroic sacrifice and achievement, but you can not hold the position that the studio is simply stupid and keeps making lethal mistakes. You may try, but you won't be successful and trying to erodes everyone's ability to make a clear decision.

They kinda can though, this studio has made other mistakes in the past, which mistake is the "lethal" one that turns someones point of view is up to each individual person, however its always a good idea to call a company out on their mistakes, and this is honestly one of the most respectful posts ive seen when it comes to doing that.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Psientist.6437" said:Demand for gold. The studio facilitates RMT and an increase in the demand for currency is an established way to curb inflation.

This "demand for gold" isn't really high at all, remember they did something similar with the Rune of Scavenging back in 2014 and now it's back at vendor value. The sigil will also drop to vendor value at some point, unless they continue adding demand for it, which I find it unlikely. It's a very short term increase in the demand for gold that won't do anything for the game as a whole, I'm willing to bet the latest mount skins earn Arenanet way more money than the sigils, meaning they don't need these sigils to increase the demand for currency, that's the job of the gem store.

Only reason to do something like this is to allow some players to profit, those that either had some kind of information about it (it has happened in the past) or simply those that rushed the episode instead of enjoying it fully. It sets a terrible precedent here that anyone who doesn't play the new episode on hour one (not even day one), will be punished, while those that do will become rich in a matter of minutes.

[Psientist.6437]

@Dante.1763 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:The studio can not 'mess up' for six years and have that 'mess up' be that severe of a 'mess up'. Your entire argument, that the studio is simply incompetent, tries to stand on an impossible proposition.

The use of sigils of null doesn't have to be a glowing example of the benefits I listed, just a good enough example for the studio to think it is worth adding to the population of all other examples of market gating.

I will help you hold the position that the use of severe market gating in this collection erodes the Tyrian narrative of heroic sacrifice and achievement, but you can not hold the position that the studio is simply stupid and keeps making lethal mistakes. You may try, but you won't be successful and trying to erodes everyone's ability to make a clear decision.

They kinda can though, this studio

has

made other mistakes in the past, which mistake is the "lethal" one that turns someones point of view is up to each individual person, however its always a good idea to call a company out on their mistakes, and this is honestly one of the most respectful posts ive seen when it comes to doing that.

Thank you. To be forthright, I have not purchased PoF and have only been logging on to unlock LW episodes. If we use lethal to mean creates a Tyrian casualty, then yes, the studio can make lethal decisions.

[Blocki.4931]

Really enjoying my rare armor because nobody else can make it :sunglasses:

To anybody in WvW who wants this armor: Your glow is always orange, so it is a bit meh in there.

[Psientist.6437]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:Demand for gold. The studio facilitates RMT and an increase in the demand for currency is an established way to curb inflation.

This "demand for gold" isn't really high at all, remember they did something similar with the Rune of Scavenging back in 2014 and now it's back at vendor value. The sigil will also drop to vendor value at some point, unless they continue adding demand for it, which I find it unlikely. It's a very short term increase in the demand for gold that won't do anything for the game as a whole, I'm willing to bet the latest mount skins earn Arenanet way more money than the sigils, meaning they don't

need

these sigils to increase the demand for currency, that's the job of the gem store.

Only reason to do something like this is to allow some players to profit, those that either had some kind of information about it (it has happened in the past) or simply those that rushed the episode instead of enjoying it fully. It sets a

terrible

precedent here that anyone who doesn't play the new episode on hour one (not even day one), will be punished, while those that do will become rich in a matter of minutes.

Tyria's economy is a propelled by bubbles that slowly dissipate. The fact that the value of an item decreases over time or that individual lifestyles become less relevant explains why there is a steady supply of new expensive items and lifestyles.

Blaming rushers and throwing the studio in with the rushers has obvious real world analogies.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Psientist.6437 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:Demand for gold. The studio facilitates RMT and an increase in the demand for currency is an established way to curb inflation.

This "demand for gold" isn't really high at all, remember they did something similar with the Rune of Scavenging back in 2014 and now it's back at vendor value. The sigil will also drop to vendor value at some point, unless they continue adding demand for it, which I find it unlikely. It's a very short term increase in the demand for gold that won't do anything for the game as a whole, I'm willing to bet the latest mount skins earn Arenanet way more money than the sigils, meaning they don't

need

these sigils to increase the demand for currency, that's the job of the gem store.

Only reason to do something like this is to allow some players to profit, those that either had some kind of information about it (it has happened in the past) or simply those that rushed the episode instead of enjoying it fully. It sets a

terrible

precedent here that anyone who doesn't play the new episode on hour one (not even day one), will be punished, while those that do will become rich in a matter of minutes.

Tyria's economy is a propelled by bubbles that slowly dissipate. The fact that the value of an item decreases over time or that individual lifestyles become less relevant explains why there is a steady supply of new expensive items and lifestyles.

And the gem store skins don't propel the economy fast enough? Why mix this with in-game rewards? And a reward that as I said sets a terrible precedent, making future releases lose much of their value.

[TwiceDead.1963]

Wow, this is still going?

I have nothing to contribute. Carry on.

[Obtena.7952]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does

NOT

mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

Even if that's true, that's an even MORE restrictive definition of satisfaction that if used by Anet, would mean nothing would ever get changed.

I mean, you must realize the idea where even a

fraction

of the content being dissatisfying is an absurd reason for Anet to take action here, even if the overall experience is satisfying. It's a completely irrelevant point anyways; Anet can't please all people with all content all the time. Not doing that is a completely ridiculous reason for them to change anything.

You again, are half correct. They

cant

please all people all the time. What they can and should do is look at the means of obtainment for items before shoving it into a collection, if it has multiple means(drops, crafting, trading post, mystic forge.) its alright, some people may not be happy because they see it as

having

to do one of those, but far fewer will be displeased if an item can be obtained with the choice of all of those, unlike this items choices(Using tones of tomes which if you only really do PVE you dont have a ton of those laying around, i have 250 and i havent used any in years, Mystic forge which is an absurd "means" to obtain a sigil, and exotic drops which not everyone is stupid lucky to obtain those.)

You are simply fooling yourself if you think that Anet didn't look at the 'obtainment' of these items for this collection. If anything, they PURPOSEFULLY choose that sigil for a reason. I don't see the problem you're illustrating here because the TP is an intended and encouraged approach as the means to obtain the mats for this collection ... or for anything else in this game for that matter. If you don't recognize that, you're just not paying attention to how this game works.

[Dante.1763]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does

NOT

mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

Even if that's true, that's an even MORE restrictive definition of satisfaction that if used by Anet, would mean nothing would ever get changed.

I mean, you must realize the idea where even a

fraction

of the content being dissatisfying is an absurd reason for Anet to take action here, even if the overall experience is satisfying. It's a completely irrelevant point anyways; Anet can't please all people with all content all the time. Not doing that is a completely ridiculous reason for them to change anything.

You again, are half correct. They

cant

please all people all the time. What they can and should do is look at the means of obtainment for items before shoving it into a collection, if it has multiple means(drops, crafting, trading post, mystic forge.) its alright, some people may not be happy because they see it as

having

to do one of those, but far fewer will be displeased if an item can be obtained with the choice of all of those, unlike this items choices(Using tones of tomes which if you only really do PVE you dont have a ton of those laying around, i have 250 and i havent used any in years, Mystic forge which is an absurd "means" to obtain a sigil, and exotic drops which not everyone is stupid lucky to obtain those.)

You are simply fooling yourself if you think that Anet didn't look at the 'obtainment' of these items for this collection. If anything, they PURPOSEFULLY choose that sigil for a reason. I don't see the problem you're illustrating here because the TP is an intended and encouraged approach as the means to obtain the mats for this collection. If you don't recognize that, you're just not paying attention to how this game works.

No, im not fooling myself, anet has and does over look simple things (like the means of obtainment), its why they are constantly changing items to be rewarded on defenses for events as an example, if they didnt overlook simple things they would never have to do such changes. What i dont recognize is it being the ONLY reliable way to obtain an item. The mystic forge(unless said item has a 100% guaranteed recipe, or is a mystic clover.) , and god damn level rewards should not, ever be considered a proper alternative to obtaining an item outside of the trading post, period.(my opinion, i hope you can understand that.)

[Obtena.7952]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does

NOT

mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

Even if that's true, that's an even MORE restrictive definition of satisfaction that if used by Anet, would mean nothing would ever get changed.

I mean, you must realize the idea where even a

fraction

of the content being dissatisfying is an absurd reason for Anet to take action here, even if the overall experience is satisfying. It's a completely irrelevant point anyways; Anet can't please all people with all content all the time. Not doing that is a completely ridiculous reason for them to change anything.

You again, are half correct. They

cant

please all people all the time. What they can and should do is look at the means of obtainment for items before shoving it into a collection, if it has multiple means(drops, crafting, trading post, mystic forge.) its alright, some people may not be happy because they see it as

having

to do one of those, but far fewer will be displeased if an item can be obtained with the choice of all of those, unlike this items choices(Using tones of tomes which if you only really do PVE you dont have a ton of those laying around, i have 250 and i havent used any in years, Mystic forge which is an absurd "means" to obtain a sigil, and exotic drops which not everyone is stupid lucky to obtain those.)

You are simply fooling yourself if you think that Anet didn't look at the 'obtainment' of these items for this collection. If anything, they PURPOSEFULLY choose that sigil for a reason. I don't see the problem you're illustrating here because the TP is an intended and encouraged approach as the means to obtain the mats for this collection. If you don't recognize that, you're just not paying attention to how this game works.

No, im not fooling myself, anet has and

does

over look simple things (like the means of obtainment), its why they are constantly changing items to be rewarded on defenses for events as an example, if they didnt overlook simple things they would

never

have to do such changes. What i dont recognize is it being the ONLY reliable way to obtain an item. The mystic forge(unless said item has a 100% guaranteed recipe, or is a mystic clover.) , and god kitten level rewards should not,

ever

be considered a proper alternative to obtaining an item outside of the trading post, period.(my opinion, i hope you can understand that.)

Just because there are instances where Anet has made mistakes does not mean this is one of them. Maybe you convinced yourself this is one such instance. From where I sit, it's implement in a way that is exactly inline with how the game was designed and intended to work because of the history of the game and how it has worked for that 6 years.

I get you have opinion about what should be a reasonable alternative to obtaining an item outside the TP ... that doesn't mean Anet made a mistake; it's just more evidence that Anet encourages the use of the TP to get mats you need for crafting. Put it this way ... if Anet wants people to use the TP ... why would they give a rat's behind about how this item becomes into the game? I know I wouldn't. In fact, I wouldn't care in the least what avenues this item comes into being ... my biggest concern is that it has a sufficient rate of introduction. That's the case we have here.

Again, this is an example of what I said before; people are ignoring the reality of how the game functions to argue there is some wrong here. If you recognize that the things that are happening here are inline with how the game is intended to function, you don't have a plausible argument for why this is 'wrong'. People aren't asking themselves the right questions; they just jump to the conclusion this is wrong.

[Psientist.6437]

I don't want to debate anymore.

To the studio,

Following revealed preference is ethical. A market place does increase the power of every Tyrian. You want us to use the market but your overall story of heroism selects for players who do not want to participate in a market, resent the presence of the market and market actors, and the only market narrative you offer is Rytlock Brimstone and the folks at Southsun Cove (can't remember the name, but they were not heroic). The only 'job' besides general farming is standing at the MF. No one respects the MF.

Monetizing your economy was brave because it is demands your responsibility and complicity. I wish I had better ideas.

[Dante.1763]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:The quantity of sigils bought by players who intend to use them for the collection far outnumbers the quantity bought by flippers. There is genuine and measurable satisfaction with this collection. If we dismiss those purchases as examples of satisfaction we dismiss how those players find value. Let's not.

No, it is not. Just because they are buying them does

NOT

mean they are satisfied with how the sigils are obtained. Unless a poll by anet is done that asks only people who have finished the collection, if they enjoyed how the collection was done including how the sigil was obtained, we will never know if the people who have done the collection are satisfied with how the collection was accomplished, even though they more than likely are satisfied with the end result they may not be satisfied with the means required to get there.

Even if that's true, that's an even MORE restrictive definition of satisfaction that if used by Anet, would mean nothing would ever get changed.

I mean, you must realize the idea where even a

fraction

of the content being dissatisfying is an absurd reason for Anet to take action here, even if the overall experience is satisfying. It's a completely irrelevant point anyways; Anet can't please all people with all content all the time. Not doing that is a completely ridiculous reason for them to change anything.

You again, are half correct. They

cant

please all people all the time. What they can and should do is look at the means of obtainment for items before shoving it into a collection, if it has multiple means(drops, crafting, trading post, mystic forge.) its alright, some people may not be happy because they see it as

having

to do one of those, but far fewer will be displeased if an item can be obtained with the choice of all of those, unlike this items choices(Using tones of tomes which if you only really do PVE you dont have a ton of those laying around, i have 250 and i havent used any in years, Mystic forge which is an absurd "means" to obtain a sigil, and exotic drops which not everyone is stupid lucky to obtain those.)

You are simply fooling yourself if you think that Anet didn't look at the 'obtainment' of these items for this collection. If anything, they PURPOSEFULLY choose that sigil for a reason. I don't see the problem you're illustrating here because the TP is an intended and encouraged approach as the means to obtain the mats for this collection. If you don't recognize that, you're just not paying attention to how this game works.

No, im not fooling myself, anet has and

does

over look simple things (like the means of obtainment), its why they are constantly changing items to be rewarded on defenses for events as an example, if they didnt overlook simple things they would

never

have to do such changes. What i dont recognize is it being the ONLY reliable way to obtain an item. The mystic forge(unless said item has a 100% guaranteed recipe, or is a mystic clover.) , and god kitten level rewards should not,

ever

be considered a proper alternative to obtaining an item outside of the trading post, period.(my opinion, i hope you can understand that.)

Just because there are instances where Anet has made mistakes does not mean this is one of them. Maybe you convinced yourself this is one such instance. From where I sit, it's implement in a way that is exactly inline with how the game was designed and intended to work because of the history of the game. I get you have opinion about what should be a reasonable alternative to obtaining an item outside the TP ... that doesn't mean Anet made a mistake; it's just more evidence that Anet encourages the use of the TP to get mats you need for crafting.

I didnt have to convince myself of anything, this is going off of things they have changed in the past(see precursors finally getting a means of 100% obtainment without the trading post.). This is not crafting, if it was crafting i more than likely(99%) wouldnt have any issues because there would be a recipe, no matter how costly that i could work on at my own pace. You will never see me complain about the cost of crafting a damn thing in this game because i can work on it, when i want, i can spend my gold if i want. This is a collection that allowed a small group of people(at first, not arguing over the slow trickle of these anymore) to profit massively because they had the ability to be playing at the time of release, rushed the content and purchased all the sigils off the market as soon as they realized what was needed.

It sets a terrible precedent in my mind which now there i wont play through the content like i normally do at my own pace if the next story has a collection like this for fear(or distrust if you wish, im not sure which fits better) of the same thing happening, its completely un enjoyable to me knowing that there is a chance of this happening again, and this sigil did ruin the LS for me because i was looking forward to that armor set.