Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]

[Gop.8713]

Zero in fifty wouldn't really be surprising given the drop rate data posted so far, and the effect of the low drop rate is exaggerated rn bc lots of ppl are buying new recipes and crafting new sets to try out. Once new meta builds are established and ppl have already purchased the recipes, the motes, charms and symbols should be a non-factor in the cost to craft . . .

[Gambino.2109]

I just think anet needs a better way of obtaining those symbols, it definitely makes me want to hoard more dungeon tokens to buy superior sigils to salvage.. but after not seeing any progress using a hefty amount of tokens from those odds.. why even bother.

Why bother with this

[Gop.8713]

If this actually pushes ppl back into dungeons, bonus ! ! ! :p

But yeah I wouldn't worry about trying to 'farm' the symbols. Just play, they'll show up over time . . .

[Syrus.2174]

@"Haleydawn.3764" said:But it’s not about the price, as many people have said in this thread...Now we’ve got a solid recipe, it’s very clear this thread was all about the price.

Now different people come and make it all about the price.

Though, I have not looked into drop rates for required materials (or even the required materials themselves) - if they are very very low ... we're back to square one anyway*.So, technically it is somewhat about the price, as price is defined by availability and supply... It's all interconnected!

• as in: something "drops" so rarely, that it in no way can sustain the supply to satisfy the demand.

[Cyninja.2954]

So let me guess, no one bought the Sigils when they were sub 5 gold on the TP when the price crashed?

I mentioned this way back, this is precursor crafting all over.

Wanting a way to craft something is not the same as wanting it to be very very cheap. It's good to know where one stands on this issue and I have a feeling some people think they want one thing but they actually want the other (in this case pretending that they want the ability to craft when they simply wanted the sigil for less).

That said, I did buy my 25 Sigils when the price bottomed out at around 4.90g per sigil. I was willing to take the risk that the price might drop even further but was more than happy to pay 125 gold for the sigils to secure myself in case the price does not continue to drop.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Syrus.2174" said:

• as in: something "drops" so rarely, that it in no way can sustain the supply to satisfy the demand.Except there was no evidence of that. The long-term supply outstripped the long-term demand, just not the short term panic market. Over the months before Requiem armor, the market supply of sigils grew even though there was no demand and people were only getting half a copper above vendor value, i.e. there was no reason for people to list their sigils on the TP then.

[Gop.8713]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Syrus.2174" said:

• as in: something "drops" so rarely, that it in no way can sustain the supply to satisfy the demand.Except there was no evidence of that. The long-term supply outstripped the long-term demand, just not the short term panic market. Over the months before Requiem armor, the market supply of sigils grew even though there was no demand and people were only getting half a copper above vendor value, i.e. there was no reason for people to list their sigils on the TP then.

There was also no evidence that the supply of sigils was going to meet the demand created by the collection in the near future either, but the ability to craft runes and sigils has eliminated that problem so why even try to continue arguing the point . . ?

Happily, there is no reason to believe that the crafting system will suffer from the same lack of supply that the sigils did, which I think was the actual concern Syrus was trying to express . . .

If ppl want to argue that the introduction of sigil crafting didn't 'fix' the collection that's true. The damage from that error was already done and for a solution to be effective anet would have needed to introduce it much more quickly than the crafting system which eventually came along. But what the crafting system does do is help to ensure that this error is not repeated, except potentially with the few recipes that require components with no ready means of supply which you have pointed out elsewhere. So for players overall it's not just a win, but a big win. It should be celebrated . . .

[Gambino.2109]

Welp with this symbol drop rate being absolute abysmal.. rng almost as bad as getting an exotic with nullification on it... I'm just gonna slowly level up a toon to 64 at a snail pace but eventually get them as I go.

Not sure what they we're thinking when they made symbols insanely hard to acquire and depended on a network of sellers.

[Gop.8713]

@Gambino.2109 said:Welp with this symbol drop rate being absolute abysmal.. rng almost as bad as getting an exotic with nullification on it... I'm just gonna slowly level up a toon to 64 at a snail pace but eventually get them as I go.

Not sure what they we're thinking when they made symbols insanely hard to acquire and depended on a network of sellers.

You have to keep in mind this is an entirely new system with newly introduced mats. There are some things working against the free flow of charms and symbols rn that will actually be beneficial in the future. Obv with the rune and sigil changes, a lot of ppl are making new sets rn, testing out new builds, etc. So the charms and symbols are in unusually high demand atm, and since they're new, there was not any preexisting supply to buffer that demand . . .

Also bc it's a new system, everyone has to spend mats to learn the recipes before they can even start using the mats to make the new runes and sigils. That's a one time cost that is further restricting the number of charms and symbols available rn, but will have a greatly diminished effect moving forward since the recipes only have to be bought once . . .

Finally, the charms and symbols can be sent to mat storage. This is a very big deal. It has a negative effect rn bc a lot of the charms and symbols that are being dropped are probably being sent straight to storage by players who aren't terribly interested in the rune and sigil changes and are just playing the game the same way they did on Monday, salvaging their loots and sending their mats to storage . . .

That means that if the demand for charms and symbols spikes in the future, there will be a lot more of them to go around. Imagine if runes and sigils could be sent to mat storage. You would likely have mat storage full of runes and sigils just like you have cloth and leather now. So when anet introduced this collection and you suddenly needed 25 sigils of nullification, you might not have had them all in mat storage bc they were a pretty rare drop, but you would have had some, and so would everyone else. So the supply at the beginning of the collection would have been much greater . . .

The charms and symbols are even better bc you're not storing the actual rune or sigil, you're only storing the capacity to craft them, so you can pick whichever you need when you need it. It's pretty perfect really . . .

[Astralporing.1957]

@Gop.8713 said:Happily, there is no reason to believe that the crafting system will suffer from the same lack of supply that the sigils did, which I think was the actual concern Syrus was trying to express . . .Not for Nullification anyway. Some of the other sigils and runes do use some ...questionable components. (like freshwater pearls, maguma lilies, giant eyes and, to top all of that, Azurite kitten orbs).

[Gop.8713]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gop.8713 said:Happily, there is no reason to believe that the crafting system will suffer from the same lack of supply that the sigils did, which I think was the actual concern Syrus was trying to express . . .Not for Nullification anyway. Some of the other sigils and runes do use some ...questionable components. (like freshwater pearls, maguma lilies, giant eyes and, to top all of that,

Azurite kitten orbs

).

Yeah, would def be a problem if anet introduced a story collection requiring 25 sigils of concentration :p

And some of the individual recipes may need tweaking once things have settled down, but perhaps not. Sigil of Concentration may fall out of favor with the change to its effect, giant eyes can be farmed through map rewards, Idk how much demand there will be for runes of hoelbrak, etc . . .

[Syrus.2174]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gop.8713 said:Happily, there is no reason to believe that the crafting system will suffer from the same lack of supply that the sigils did, which I think was the actual concern Syrus was trying to express . . .Not for Nullification anyway. Some of the other sigils and runes do use some ...questionable components. (like freshwater pearls, maguma lilies, giant eyes and, to top all of that,

Azurite kitten orbs

).

Yeah, well, looking at the overall rune/sigil prices now, it feels like the problem (of lack of supply, not the one of rushing content giving a massive advantage) has been expanded, with supply not matching demand. But then again, many of them have been changed, so people may be changing their current ones, driving prices up for the moment. ...I don't understand the choice of materials for the recipes though. I guess I don't understand a lot of Anet market related choices anymore...

[Obtena.7952]

@Syrus.2174 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gop.8713 said:Happily, there is no reason to believe that the crafting system will suffer from the same lack of supply that the sigils did, which I think was the actual concern Syrus was trying to express . . .Not for Nullification anyway. Some of the other sigils and runes do use some ...questionable components. (like freshwater pearls, maguma lilies, giant eyes and, to top all of that,

Azurite kitten orbs

).

Yeah, well, looking at the overall rune/sigil prices now, it feels like the problem (of lack of supply, not the one of rushing content giving a massive advantage) has been expanded, with supply not matching demand. But then again, many of them have been changed, so people may be changing their current ones, driving prices up for the moment. ...I don't understand the choice of materials for the recipes though. I guess I don't understand a lot of Anet market related choices anymore...

But But ... problem solved according to Some People. Some People said this wasn't about price OR accessibility ... it was about being able to get sigils without relying on someone else to supply them; Some People wanted to get them on their own, but not with the ways already provided to them. Some People didn't realize that it was irrelevant how those sigils were provided ... because they convinced themselves it wasn't about price. But wait .. the drop rate is about price and now it's RNG for Charms; OOPS.

So now we have an expensive, hard to farm and RNG option. Some People just paid a premium to play at their leisure. I guess it's exactly what Some People wanted. Honestly, I give my head a few good shakes. They don't want to buy the sigil, but they are going to spend the greater part of a few months collecting charms ... such is the way MMO's work; sometimes Some People get what they ask for.

[Gop.8713]

@Syrus.2174 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gop.8713 said:Happily, there is no reason to believe that the crafting system will suffer from the same lack of supply that the sigils did, which I think was the actual concern Syrus was trying to express . . .Not for Nullification anyway. Some of the other sigils and runes do use some ...questionable components. (like freshwater pearls, maguma lilies, giant eyes and, to top all of that,

Azurite kitten orbs

).

Yeah, well, looking at the overall rune/sigil prices now, it feels like the problem (of lack of supply, not the one of rushing content giving a massive advantage) has been expanded, with supply not matching demand. But then again, many of them have been changed, so people may be changing their current ones, driving prices up for the moment. ...I don't understand the choice of materials for the recipes though. I guess I don't understand a lot of Anet market related choices anymore...

Yes, supply of the new mats is low bc ppl are testing and replacing a lot of sets due to the rune/sigil revamp, and also bc, well, they're new :p The symbol/charm prices will reach vendor level over time . . .

Using the recipes to tie runes and sigils to readily available mats isn't a problem, it's the fix. If players like those who exploited this collection to abuse other players tried to repeat their behavior in the future they would be unable to do so, since they would need to buy up not only all the sigils -- which would be harder since they will cost more now -- but they would also need to buy up the mats used to make the sigils. Even if they succeeded in this, they would still fail to corner the market since players would also have these mats in storage and they are farmable in the open world. So everything will cost more, which prevents the one thing you actually want from costing a lot more. It's just a world of win, as evidenced by the complaints from the ones who are disappointed that those of us who wanted to play the game instead of the market got what we wanted :)

[Obtena.7952]

The only shining light here is that the new system will maintain the primary importance of the TP and the economy of the game. Not sure how people don't see it, but you traded farming a sigil with farming Charms. I guess that's a win for you, even though it will be harder for you to farm charms than farm the sigil.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

who cares? until Tuesday, nullification was of some value for all classes. Since Tuesday, only thieves can use it. So it will bomb out soon enough.

Strangely, there are no weaver, tempest, ranger, mesmer etc pp only sigils.

[Obtena.7952]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:who cares? until Tuesday, nullification was of some value for all classes. Since Tuesday, only thieves can use it. So it will bomb out soon enough.

Strangely, there are no weaver, tempest, ranger, mesmer etc pp only sigils.

Not sure that's accurate; it's not about about how useful it is to a class that causes the demand for the item. The fact you need 25 of them for a quest more than makes up for players wanting to use it as actual sigils for armor.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:in this case pretending that they want the ability to craft when they simply wanted the sigil for less

About the same price it had before a handful of players rushed the episode, figured out that you need 25 of this rare sigil, then bought the entire supply for less than 400g, causing the price to skyrocket. Finally they got rich by re-selling them (we are talking about a 6 digit gold value)

It's not that I want the sigil for less, but I don't like being exploited and before some smart guy says "that's the free market", they could've made it so you need 1 sigil to finish the armor, the price would still rise above the current value, but not skyrocket from 2 silver to as high as 10 gold, this is a massive increase in price that made the early rushers so rich they no longer have to buy any gems for the lifetime of the game (good job there Anet). How much will I pay with the new system? I don't really care because it's the system for everyone now, not giving a different treatment to special snowflakes (in this case rushers). Which is why I wouldn't have any complaints if they already required a vast amount of gold to finish the collection. It's not the price that's the problem, it never was and will never be.

[Sojourner.4621]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:who cares? until Tuesday, nullification was of some value for all classes. Since Tuesday, only thieves can use it. So it will bomb out soon enough.

Strangely, there are no weaver, tempest, ranger, mesmer etc pp only sigils.

Suddenly other classes can't attack from behind or the side? Flanking isn't a class mechanic... literally any class can do it, it's just that until now thief was the only class that really took advantage of it (Oh, and ranger... most of the shortbow skills have extra effects from flanking). This sigil works JUST fine for any class, it just means that class has to.... WALK an entire inch to strip a boon every 5 seconds. You should be doing this anyway, positioning in combat is so important when it comes to avoiding attacks.

[Gop.8713]

@Obtena.7952 said:The only shining light here is that the new system will maintain the primary importance of the TP and the economy of the game. Not sure how people don't see it, but you traded farming a sigil with farming Charms. I guess that's a win for you, even though it will be harder for you to farm charms than farm the sigil.

This is simply inaccurate. They've existed for less than a week and charms and symbols are already more plentiful than the sigil was. And they go into mat storage, so moving forward they will be available when needed to players who have been playing the game. And players who would rather purchase off tp will still be able to do so. Not really any downside that I can see, so yep, def a win . . .

[Obtena.7952]

@Gop.8713 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The only shining light here is that the new system will maintain the primary importance of the TP and the economy of the game. Not sure how people don't see it, but you traded farming a sigil with farming Charms. I guess that's a win for you, even though it will be harder for you to farm charms than farm the sigil.

This is simply inaccurate. They've existed for less than a week and charms and symbols are already more plentiful than the sigil was. And they go into mat storage, so moving forward they will be available when needed to players who have been playing the game.

Nothing inaccurate about what I said. TP will still remain the primary source for mats in the game when people want them, whether it's a charm or a sigil; that doesn't change because a fringe group of people are dedicated to farming all their own mats. I have nothing against the new crafting system but it's not different than anything else in this game when it comes to how it's crafted and how mats are available for it.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

And to think, this whole thing could have been avoided if Anet had just charged gold outright to do that collection, like they did with the griffin (which few, if any, people complained about).

That's the big difference: the griffin's price was fair, paid equally by everyone. There weren't any people who rushed through PoF and got the griffin for a few gold, while people who took their time and savored the content ended up having to pay hundreds of times that much.

[Tyson.5160]

Let’s be honest here, these changes were well in the works probably before episode 4 was released.

[Obtena.7952]

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:And to think, this whole thing could have been avoided if Anet had just charged gold outright to do that collection, like they did with the griffin (which few, if any, people complained about).

That's the big difference: the griffin's price was fair, paid equally by everyone. There weren't any people who rushed through PoF and got the griffin for a few gold, while people who took their time and savored the content ended up having to pay hundreds of times that much.

To be accurate, what is equal is not always fair. That's the case with Griffon.

Also, what is fair is not always equal either. That's the case with the sigil

Simply put, don't make a correlation between equality and fair.

[Blanche Neige.7241]

I am personnally happy with the change. I now have options that I did not had before.

If I'm not in a hurry, I can play the game as I want, knowing that I will eventually get all the mats I need to craft the sigils.

If I'm missing some mats when I'll want to craft the sigils, I can buy the mats off the TP.

If I'm in a hurry, I can still buy the sigils directly off the TP.