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Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]


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@Odinens.5920 said:

@Odinens.5920 said:Not sure why people keep defending this sigil/rune change when it's clearly negatively affected a whole lot of people.
  1. drops rates for motes/symbols/etc are way too low. More people agree with this than don't.

Sure, a lot of people would also want legendäres for 1 gold, doesn't make them right or correct from am economic perspective.

Nobody is asking for 1g legendaries or even drop rates so high that it floods the market, but you go right ahead and defend the current drop rates like it's a normal thing. Us people that actually realize it's not ok will continue to criticize

yet here you are, criticizing value and gold cost. I was obviously exaggerating to make a point. Same how you are exaggerating about how the end will come if these changes remain (hint: it will not).

Please, do show me where I mentioned cost or "the end" in my statement.

All you do is complain about the cost of the item. It's literally the only substance to your complaint. Everything else is remedied:

  • it's craft-able
  • it's attainable via game play
  • it can be gained without rng

You are unhappy with the price of the rune and sigils and the underlying system which causes this. We get it. The system is fine and works as intended. Runes and Sigils are not supposed to be vendor trash. The change was made to achieve this.

@Odinens.5920 said:

  1. as such, it's still faster and easier to use the level up method to obtain ONE sigil. May as well not even have the crafting option, since it clearly hasn't changed ANYthing with regards to this collection.

It's an OPTION, people demanded an option to the TP. The option does not mean it is free of charge.

You say option, that people demanded? I already said it's an OPTION that not very many people are even choosing because it's not worth it. Thus not changing or fixing anything with regard to the collection.

People complained about the rng nature, similar as precursor crafting. A non rng self-craft method was added. All you see is once again the cost. No one said the cost would drop. It's defined by supply and demand which meets at the TP listing price.

Again, please show me where I mentioned cost in my Statement. If you had read earlier "worth it" in this case was referring to the time it takes to craft 1 sigil as opposed to leveling up a new character and getting the sigil that way.

Then don't, farm gold and buy it, level a character, buy the materials, play the game and gather the materials. There are multiple avenues to achieve the goal. Most of them come down to how willing someone is to spend gold.

What you find to be of value is not the god given all encompassing truth. I seem to find value in the fact that the current system doesn't treat 95% of all runes and sigils as vendor trash.

@Odinens.5920 said:

  1. on the off chance you get a weapon drop with a null sigil in it (or any rune/sigil for that matter) guess what - if you want to keep that sigil you now have to pay real money to keep it, because the only 2 ways to get it are either an extraction tool or a BL salvage kit, both of which are only obtainable thru the gem store....that's a scam in my book.

Sell the exotic, buy the sigil. Problem solved.

Tell me again what salvage tools are for? Sorry, but what they have done with regard to being able to salvage runes/sigils is a shady business practice. You can defend it if you like, but until they make salvage tools do what they used to this will STILL be a shady business practice.

I gave you a solution to your dilemma.

Salvage tools do exactly what they state. You can disagree with them and how they work. Doesn't change the fact that if you get a Sigil or Rune you want in an exotic, you can sell the exotic which will be at near market value of the rune/sigil and buy the rune/sigil thus circumventing both the rng nature of the salvage tool as well as more expensive extractors.

My previous statement still stands. It's a shady business practice. You can go ahead and keep defending it if you'd like. People wanted the ability to salvage runes/sigils, and to craft them. Nobody asked for auto-salvaging direct from gear and having NO chance whatsoever of keeping a rune or sigil if they so desired, and on top of that making the only way TO keep them is gem store items.

shady is shady

People wanted stuff FOR FREE. It was literally the same situation as with precursor crafting. No, a revised system will hopefully NOT repeat the mistakes of the past. Arenanet wants Sigils and Runes to hold value no matter how meta they might be.

If you want to salvage runes you have that option:

  • buy extractors from the gem store
  • use Black Lion Salvage kits
  • buy the invite extractor off the TP

Those items were in place before the change and they remain in place after the change. There was never a realistic scenario in which these items were made obsolete. I already gave you alternative approaches as to how to circumvent the use of these items.

What you are calling shady business practices is simply a proper implemented system which makes use of ALL items involved. You want shady business practices? Go check out some of the micro-transactions in other games which were implemented AFTER the games were released and which actually force you to spend money. Or better yet, go play a subscription based MMO, I hear they are way fairer on the monetization.

Is the current system perfect? No. Was the previous system perfect? No. Does the current system fit better with the games monetization and itemization model? Yes. Does the new system force players to shell out tons of additional gold and gems? Not if you both manage your resources wisely and approach sigils and runes as not a disposable resource.

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Runes and sigils are not suppose to be vendor trash eh? Then how about actually making them useful and not implementing an artificial way that quite frankly makes no sense.. like what does the nullification runes even do for the armor?

I mean when you see stuff like 100 charged Lodestones for a legendary.. you know you're making something that Sparks/flashes. That's my opinion though

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@Gambino.2109 said:Runes and sigils are not suppose to be vendor trash eh? Then how about actually making them useful and not implementing an artificial way that quite frankly makes no sense.. like what does the nullification runes even do for the armor?

I mean when you see stuff like 100 charged Lodestones for a legendary.. you know you're making something that Sparks/flashes. That's my opinion though

By the very nature of optimization it is literally impossible to make all runes/sigils equally desired. There will always be a best rune or sigil for performance.

Thus other ways to make the remaining runes/sigils valuable are being implemented. Runes of Nullification are desired, not for use but for the armor. That is working as intended. You not liking this fact does not change this. On the contrary, having more runes and sigils retain a certain value is of an overall benefit to the games economy since it encourages more trade over the TP instead of vending to a merchant.

Yet you will find enough people who will complain that legendary items are over priced. The armor is close to (and some even prefer its look) legendary armor. A price point of 200-300 gold is more than justified.

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The price isn't justified, because it wasn't paid equally by everyone. The griffin's price is justified, because everyone who has one paid the same 250g for it.

Imagine if the first people who beat PoF could get a griffin for 10 gold, whereas someone beating it now would have to pay 500 or even 1000 gold for it. That's literally what happened with Sigil of Nullification. If Anet had just attached a hard gold cost to Requiem Armor (in account-bound vendor items, again like the griffin), a lot less people would have been angry.

Also it's terrible game design to encourage your playerbase to rush mindlessly through your new content so they can get in on whatever the next newly in-demand item is (or at least get enough for themselves), which everyone is going to do with 4-5 now that the precedent has been set.

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@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:The price isn't justified, because it wasn't paid equally by everyone. The griffin's price is justified, because everyone who has one paid the same 250g for it.

The price might not have been fair, it is justified though. Why? Because people are willing to pay it. You might not be, and others might not too, enough people are to keep it stable and even increasing.

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:Imagine if the first people who beat PoF could get a griffin for 10 gold, whereas someone beating it now would have to pay 500 or even 1000 gold for it. That's literally what happened with Sigil of Nullification. If Anet had just attached a hard gold cost to Requiem Armor (in account-bound vendor items, again like the griffin), a lot less people would have been angry.

Yes, and the same people who complained about not being able to craft it and having to pay dubious TP barons for the sigil were the same people who still complained when the price remained high after the rune/sigil rework.

Given the very limited supply pre collection patch, rest assured that the vast majority of players payed the current and even higher price. Yes, some people got the collection heavily discounted and some more made a ton of gold with it. Those couple of hundred people hardly make up the majority given the constant influx of sigils over the last few months.

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

Also it's terrible game design to encourage your playerbase to rush mindlessly through your new content so they can get in on whatever the next newly in-demand item is (or at least get enough for themselves), which everyone is going to do with 4-5 now that the precedent has been set.

I'm pretty sure 99% of the player base will not care and play the game at their own leisure. They then will either pay a post market adjusted value or not get the skin and move on. There will obviously be the 1-2% who will feel wildly mistreated and complain. That will always be the case when items are traded over an open market.

We will see how they implement the weapons with the next patch and if any complaints come from that.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:Given the very limited supply pre collection patch, rest assured that the vast majority of players payed the current and even higher price. Yes, some people got the collection heavily discounted and some more made a ton of gold with it. Those couple of hundred people hardly make up the majority given the constant influx of sigils over the last few months.Why would you think that the amount of people that profited from the rest matters in this case? If anything, it makes the number of people that didn't get kittened over smaller.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Given the very limited supply pre collection patch, rest assured that the vast majority of players payed the current and even higher price. Yes, some people got the collection heavily discounted and some more made a ton of gold with it. Those couple of hundred people hardly make up the majority given the constant influx of sigils over the last few months.Why would you think that the amount of people that profited from the rest matters in this case? If anything, it makes the number of people that didn't get kittened over smaller.

I was addressing the issue of that it is unfair since people got the rune cheaper. If at all, changing it now would be unfair since a way greater amount of people payed the post patch price.

It also stands to reason that IF part of the pre-patch supply was bought up and relisted, even less total players payed the pre-patch price making. As such complaining that some few payed less is insignificant when the vast majority is and was willing to pay the higher price.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:Given the very limited supply pre collection patch, rest assured that the vast majority of players payed the current and even higher price. Yes, some people got the collection heavily discounted and some more made a ton of gold with it. Those couple of hundred people hardly make up the majority given the constant influx of sigils over the last few months.Why would you think that the amount of people that profited from the rest matters in this case? If anything, it makes the number of people that didn't get kittened over smaller.

I was addressing the issue of that it is unfair since people got the rune cheaper. If at all, changing it now would be unfair since a way greater amount of people payed the post patch price.

It also stands to reason that IF part of the pre-patch supply was bought up and relisted, even less total players payed the pre-patch price making. As such complaining that some few payed less is insignificant when the vast majority is and was willing to pay the higher price.

Have a feeling you maybe one of them that have bought cheap and listed some of these runes on TP and know that if price dropped, you'd be making a loss.

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@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Given the very limited supply pre collection patch, rest assured that the vast majority of players payed the current and even higher price. Yes, some people got the collection heavily discounted and some more made a ton of gold with it. Those couple of hundred people hardly make up the majority given the constant influx of sigils over the last few months.Why would you think that the amount of people that profited from the rest matters in this case? If anything, it makes the number of people that didn't get kittened over smaller.

I was addressing the issue of that it is unfair since people got the rune cheaper. If at all, changing it now would be unfair since a way greater amount of people payed the post patch price.

It also stands to reason that IF part of the pre-patch supply was bought up and relisted, even less total players payed the pre-patch price making. As such complaining that some few payed less is insignificant when the vast majority is and was willing to pay the higher price.

Have a feeling you maybe one of them that have bought cheap and listed some of these runes on TP and know that if price dropped, you'd be making a loss.

IF I was one of the people who bought pre patch supply, I was not since I had no access to the game and I have said so multiple times in this thread while the patch was live and even mentioned when I bought MY 25 sigils (at around 4 gold 50 when the price dipped right before the rune patch and a vast majority of players expected the rune change to make the rune dirt cheap), I would have made my money back a thousand times over.

You on the other hand seem exactly like some of the other people, not able to comprehend that someone might be in favor of a working system with market checks and balances which works in tandem with the trading post. See, I can make assumptions about you the same way.

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IF I was one of the people who bought pre patch supply, I was not since I had no access to the game and I have said so multiple times in this thread while the patch was live and even mentioned when I bought MY 25 sigils (at around 4 gold 50 when the price dipped right before the rune patch and a vast majority of players expected the rune change to make the rune dirt cheap), I would have made my money back a thousand times over.

You on the other hand seem exactly like some of the other people, not able to comprehend that someone might be in favor of a working system with market checks and balances which works in tandem with the trading post. See, I can make assumptions about you the same way.

I'm actually working on WvW legendary armor so this basically just a skin.With the amount of Tome of Knowledge i have, i could easily level a empty character slot to level 64 and get it.Thing is i feel sorry for the new players and those who do not have gold to buy these at these ridiculous prices.

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@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Given the very limited supply pre collection patch, rest assured that the vast majority of players payed the current and even higher price. Yes, some people got the collection heavily discounted and some more made a ton of gold with it. Those couple of hundred people hardly make up the majority given the constant influx of sigils over the last few months.Why would you think that the amount of people that profited from the rest matters in this case? If anything, it makes the number of people that didn't get kittened over smaller.

I was addressing the issue of that it is unfair since people got the rune cheaper. If at all, changing it now would be unfair since a way greater amount of people payed the post patch price.

It also stands to reason that IF part of the pre-patch supply was bought up and relisted, even less total players payed the pre-patch price making. As such complaining that some few payed less is insignificant when the vast majority is and was willing to pay the higher price.

Have a feeling you maybe one of them that have bought cheap and listed some of these runes on TP and know that if price dropped, you'd be making a loss.

It's quite interesting to me that for some reason people think personal gain has to be the main motivator for people instead of thinking it's just a bad idea

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IF I was one of the people who bought pre patch supply, I was not since I had no access to the game and I have said so multiple times in this thread while the patch was live and even mentioned when I bought MY 25 sigils (at around 4 gold 50 when the price dipped right before the rune patch and a vast majority of players expected the rune change to make the rune dirt cheap), I would have made my money back a thousand times over.

You on the other hand seem exactly like some of the other people, not able to comprehend that someone might be in favor of a working system with market checks and balances which works in tandem with the trading post. See, I can make assumptions about you the same way.

I'm actually working on WvW legendary armor so this basically just a skin.With the amount of Tome of Knowledge i have, i could easily level a empty character slot to level 64 and get it.Thing is i feel sorry for the new players and those who do not have gold to buy these at these ridiculous prices.

I had a long answer written out about how a new player today has it way way easier compared to vanilla or at any other point in time, then I figured: why bother.

If you feel sorry for new players because they can not get their desired cosmetic item of choice (out of the over 5.400 skins in this game currently), so be it.

Me, I am happy for new players who can get a ton of gold from both their level-up rewards and daily log-in rewards where they are directly profiteering off of being given items which veteran players desire for cosmetics. Mystic coins, convertible laurels, 2 gold dailies, an abundance of different farms even Sigil of Nullification all allow a new player to amass enough gold to get the bare minimum gold to get geared and fully equipped to enjoy the game the moment they hit 80.

If access to cosmetic items is the bar we suddenly use, then this is the wrong game. Free cosmetic options are granted in subscription based MMOs with an out of control spiraling auction house and economy. Do people count in millions or billions of gold now in WoW? I'm not even sure.

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IF I was one of the people who bought pre patch supply, I was not since I had no access to the game and I have said so multiple times in this thread while the patch was live and even mentioned when I bought MY 25 sigils (at around 4 gold 50 when the price dipped right before the rune patch and a vast majority of players expected the rune change to make the rune dirt cheap), I would have made my money back a thousand times over.

You on the other hand seem exactly like some of the other people, not able to comprehend that someone might be in favor of a working system with market checks and balances which works in tandem with the trading post. See, I can make assumptions about you the same way.

I'm actually working on WvW legendary armor so this basically just a skin.With the amount of Tome of Knowledge i have, i could easily level a empty character slot to level 64 and get it.Thing is i feel sorry for the new players and those who do not have gold to buy these at these ridiculous prices.

I had a long answer written out about how a new player today has it way way easier compared to vanilla or at any other point in time, then I figured: why bother.

If you feel sorry for new players because they can not get their desired cosmetic item of choice (out of the over 5.400 skins in this game currently), so be it.

Me, I am happy for new players who can get a ton of gold from both their level-up rewards and daily log-in rewards where they are directly profiteering off of being given items which veteran players desire for cosmetics. Mystic coins, convertible laurels, 2 gold dailies, an abundance of different farms even Sigil of Nullification all allow a new player to amass enough gold to get the bare minimum gold to get geared and fully equipped to enjoy the game the moment they hit 80.

If access to cosmetic items is the bar we suddenly use, then this is the wrong game. Free cosmetic options are granted in subscription based MMOs with an out of control spiraling auction house and economy. Do people count in millions or billions of gold now in WoW? I'm not even sure.

While this sounds great, lets be honest. There was a time when daily and monthly rewards were much better than they are now.. You could purchase your traits and skills much earlier. And you could make a lot more money using karma and dungeon currency to convert. Today is a bit more streamlined, but more limited imo.

As far as sigils/runes go, I like the new system but it needs some work. I think removing the charm/symbol requirement from the minor and major versions would go a long way in helping the system grow properly. As it stands the conversion to get charms and symbols is way too low to support making low level runes and sigils. In the case of the Nullification sigil, the price is high because it is highly desired among completionists and folks wanting the skin, but it would probably be a lot lower if the ability to get the control symbol was more reliable.

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@Sleepwalker.1398 said:Have a feeling you maybe one of them that have bought cheap and listed some of these runes on TP and know that if price dropped, you'd be making a loss.Nobody from that first wave is going to suffer a loss. They've all sold their supply and profited from it already. I'm pretty sure people still arguing for it right now do (for some reason or another) genuinely believe it was a good change.

I just think they're mistaken here. Although my doubts now are no longer tied specifically to Nullification sigils (even if i still think using them in such an amount was a bad idea), but to rune/sigil crafting system in general.

@yann.1946 said:It's quite interesting to me that for some reason people think personal gain has to be the main motivator for people instead of thinking it's just a bad ideaIt's quite interesting to me that for some reason people assume that opposing this is also made for personal gain, and not because of thinking it was just a bad idea.

Also, no, i don't think personal interest motivates any specific poster here, unless they were to specifically mention it.

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@Astralporing.1957

@yann.1946 said:It's quite interesting to me that for some reason people think personal gain has to be the main motivator for people instead of thinking it's just a bad ideaIt's quite interesting to me that for some reason people assume that opposing this is also made for personal gain, and not because of thinking it was just a bad idea.

Also, no, i don't think personal interest motivates any specific poster here, unless they were to specifically mention it.

We'll I agree that it's a stupid argument in both directions. Never claimed otherwise :)

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Me, I am happy for new players who can get a ton of gold from both their level-up rewards and daily log-in rewards where they are directly profiteering off of being given items which veteran players desire for cosmetics. Mystic coins, convertible laurels, 2 gold dailies, an abundance of different farms even Sigil of Nullification all allow a new player to amass enough gold to get the bare minimum gold to get geared and fully equipped to enjoy the game the moment they hit 80.

And when those new players have hit 80 and then want those cosmetic upgrades? What then? You remind me of those people who are so excited that their house has increased in value by 300%, not realizing that if they sold the house, all that profit would then be spent paying for their next house which has also increased in value. In other words, they are none the wealthier.

But my wife who just leveled an alt character to 80, has about 120g to her account (no griffon yet), and was confronted with the reality that it would cost her 57 gold to buy 6x Superior Runes of the Scholar, something that would have cost her 13g before the sigil rework, what about her? What is your suggestion to her? Farm up symbols? (lol) Use the Major Runes? (lol)

400% increase in price......

Keep defending it man... :/

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Gambino.2109 said:Runes and sigils are not suppose to be vendor trash eh? Then how about actually making them useful and not implementing an artificial way that quite frankly makes no sense.. like what does the nullification runes even do for the armor?

I mean when you see stuff like 100 charged Lodestones for a legendary.. you know you're making something that Sparks/flashes. That's my opinion though

By the very nature of optimization it is literally impossible to make all runes/sigils equally desired. There will always be a best rune or sigil for performance.

Thus other ways to make the remaining runes/sigils valuable are being implemented. Runes of Nullification are desired, not for use but for the armor. That is working as intended. You not liking this fact does not change this. On the contrary, having more runes and sigils retain a certain value is of an overall benefit to the games economy since it encourages more trade over the TP instead of vending to a merchant.

Yet you will find enough people who will complain that legendary items are over priced. The armor is close to (and some even prefer its look) legendary armor. A price point of 200-300 gold is more than justified.

This very subjective I personally won't pay more then 4g for the sigil which were before basically worthless. if I'm really interested in this collection I will farm those by leveling or build them after either the base material price sunk or I wait until I farmed the base materials themselves .

There is also the point people aren't necessarily interested in the skins the achievement to unlock them are an extension of a achievement which you do for your sun hideout. I think 70% of the people just want to be finished with it and nothing more

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

Me, I am happy for new players who can get a ton of gold from both their level-up rewards and daily log-in rewards where they are directly profiteering off of being given items which veteran players desire for cosmetics. Mystic coins, convertible laurels, 2 gold dailies, an abundance of different farms even Sigil of Nullification all allow a new player to amass enough gold to get the bare minimum gold to get geared and fully equipped to enjoy the game the moment they hit 80.

And when those new players have hit 80 and then want those cosmetic upgrades? What then? You remind me of those people who are so excited that their house has increased in value by 300%, not realizing that if they sold the house, all that profit would then be spent paying for their next house which has also increased in value. In other words, they are none the wealthier.

But my wife who just leveled an alt character to 80, has about 120g to her account (no griffon yet), and was confronted with the reality that it would cost her 57 gold to buy 6x Superior Runes of the Scholar, something that would have cost her 13g before the sigil rework, what about her? What is your suggestion to her? Farm up symbols? (lol) Use the Major Runes? (lol)

400% increase in price......

Keep defending it man... :/

That depends, this game and Arenanet make money with cosmetics and optional content (and the convenience items are already borderline pay to win by now). Now once we start making this optional content baseline, something else will have to get monetized.

You sure you want to go down that road?

I'm fine with either since I have no problem paying say a subscription fee.

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@Gambino.2109 said:Runes and sigils are not suppose to be vendor trash eh? Then how about actually making them useful and not implementing an artificial way that quite frankly makes no sense.. like what does the nullification runes even do for the armor?

I mean when you see stuff like 100 charged Lodestones for a legendary.. you know you're making something that Sparks/flashes. That's my opinion though

By the very nature of optimization it is literally impossible to make all runes/sigils equally desired. There will always be a best rune or sigil for performance.

Thus other ways to make the remaining runes/sigils valuable are being implemented. Runes of Nullification are desired, not for use but for the armor. That is working as intended. You not liking this fact does not change this. On the contrary, having more runes and sigils retain a certain value is of an overall benefit to the games economy since it encourages more trade over the TP instead of vending to a merchant.

Yet you will find enough people who will complain that legendary items are over priced. The armor is close to (and some even prefer its look) legendary armor. A price point of 200-300 gold is more than justified.

This very subjective I personally won't pay more then 4g for the sigil which were before basically worthless. if I'm really interested in this collection I will farm those by leveling or build them after either the base material price sunk or I wait until I farmed the base materials themselves .

There is also the point people aren't necessarily interested in the skins the achievement to unlock them are an extension of a achievement which you do for your sun hideout. I think 70% of the people just want to be finished with it and nothing more

Absolutely valid. If you are not willing to pay more than 4 gold per sigil/rune, then don't. Currently there is thousands of people who are willing (or will at least fork over the gold on the TP) and able to pay 8+ gold, otherwise the price would have dropped.

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