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Thieves ruin WvW


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currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

that is no fun anymore.

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@Gondolph.7201 said:my suggestion on this.Thieves should loose %s of hiding time inside wvw buildings over time. After , say, 20 minutes their hiding time should continuously decrease. Just to give them some balance.

In reality there is a Revealed timer after a cap. This should apply to all classes where you cannot stealth while you have the debuff. But hey, we're talking WvW here.

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@Gondolph.7201 said:currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

that is no fun anymore.

Not going to say it's not annoying, but if you want to get them just wait till they try to cap, they can't perma stealth and cap. Put a golem at lords, trust me it helps. If you're going to be there you might as well chuck a couple of golems in lords for good measure, they cannot one shot you inside one and they have to reveal themselves to kill the lord as well. You will only lose sm to them if they are ignored at lords.

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@oOStaticOo.9467 said:I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

I like that idea! It kind of solves both problems. I dont mind the ability to move stealthy and quickly, due to their lower HP. But once they attack, they better commit to the attack and not be able to engage/disengage so quickly/easily. Right now it feels like no risk for them to attack, because once they start to lose its just run away, regen health and come back to try again.

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When we were playing on Desert borderland we had constantly problems with Deadeyes in the keeps. Their goal wasn't even capping half the time, but keeping the keep tagged, killing players who let their guard down, destroying siege and so on. And if you didn't pay enough attention they would try to cap. Those lords go down faster than you think, and who'd expect someone to cap a keep while no wall or gate is damaged or down, especially if the thief has been in the keep for quite a while already without popping up.

My suggestion, as I already wrote in another thread some time ago, would be to make each application of stealth last for a shorter amount of time and when you are visible the timer regenrates again. That way permanent stealth is impossible but stealth still stays a powerful tool in fights - while also forcing the thief to end a fight if the only thing he can do in that fight is "stealth-attack-stealth-attack-..." over a very long time.Overall though I feel like the class is broken in WvW. It doesn't add much to teamplay, is used in a very trollish manner due to the stealth and impossibility to catch, and is able to instant-kill out of nowhere. In zergs it is at best useful to take out enemy casters - though usually I'd say any proper zerg class is much more helpful to the team - and in roaming it is simply not fun or worthwhile to fight, because any decent thief can always get away, turning every fight into "you die, or the thief realizes he can't kill you and flees".

(Though I must say... that last time I encountered a deadeye while roaming, he really didn't expect the fight to go the way it did, I assume ... killing one of those pests in under ten seconds by stunlocking him is just a thing of pure beauty.)

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@oOStaticOo.9467 said:I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

that or just decrease thief damage by 90%.

High risk, high reward, low risk, low reward. Thieves take no risks, so thery should get no reward.

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@"Syrus.2174" said:When we were playing on Desert borderland we had constantly problems with Deadeyes in the keeps. Their goal wasn't even capping half the time, but keeping the keep tagged, killing players who let their guard down, destroying siege and so on. And if you didn't pay enough attention they would try to cap. Those lords go down faster than you think, and who'd expect someone to cap a keep while no wall or gate is damaged or down, especially if the thief has been in the keep for quite a while already without popping up.

My suggestion, as I already wrote in another thread some time ago, would be to make each application of stealth last for a shorter amount of time and when you are visible the timer regenrates again. That way permanent stealth is impossible but stealth still stays a powerful tool in fights - while also forcing the thief to end a fight if the only thing he can do in that fight is "stealth-attack-stealth-attack-..." over a very long time.Overall though I feel like the class is broken in WvW. It doesn't add much to teamplay, is used in a very trollish manner due to the stealth and impossibility to catch, and is able to instant-kill out of nowhere. In zergs it is at best useful to take out enemy casters - though usually I'd say any proper zerg class is much more helpful to the team - and in roaming it is simply not fun or worthwhile to fight, because any decent thief can always get away, turning every fight into "you die, or the thief realizes he can't kill you and flees".

(Though I must say... that last time I encountered a deadeye while roaming, he really didn't expect the fight to go the way it did, I assume ... killing one of those pests in under ten seconds by stunlocking him is just a thing of pure beauty.)

This is why after every cap, we make sure to clear out all the dots before the timer goes off. This is what happens when the comm just leaves after a cap. You have to be responsible to make sure no enemies are left on inner. If comm doesn't care to do these things they deem aren't a problem, it can become one and it's not the thief/whatever is left insides fault. On the other hand, if the thief can't be useful in any way to a zerg, this is a good example of something they could do.

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Perma stealth, or near enough, should not be allowed imo. Stealth is a really unfun mechanic to play against, there was a DE camping outside spawn and insta killing zerglings trying to rejoin, just when you think he left he was hiding in stealth all along. Either nerf stealth or the ability to deal near fatal damage immediately from stealth (aka backstab).

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Oh stop it... in this power creep meta of AOE CC and Ebola you want to ground most innocent class ever. If zerg cant catch a thief in castle when it's zerg problem. There were times when there were no 5min timer. Mesmers used to hide in keeps. That was fun times. Roamers and scouts had some extra work chasing them.

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while i dont see a single deadeye an issue in a keep, a group of 3 is. but that is mainly because what the defenders have to do to avoid ressurecting is too much. currently when your full dead every time you get rezzed 1 tick the timer resets to 5 min (it wont show on the actual timer but it does reset, timer stops at 0 and no port then). so the defenders have to make sure no other can come to the target out of combat for 5 minutes. they need to spread AoEs wide and even then the deadeye might shadowstep during an evade on the corpse to rez and only needs 1 tick for another 5 minutes. in such a situation the ressing deadeye is usually not fighting so can adjust his build completely for that. i usually take both defensive lines then SA + Acro and a shadow trap(+nomad gear with mercy runes). place that trap far away, start rezzing when the zerg hits me at 50% my instant reflexes trigger to cover my 'destroy shadow trap' teleport into out of combat thats pretty safe and if i have 5 mins after each tick, then you need ALOT to prevent me rezzing.for all i care full downed could be ported to spawn right away but so you can rez people after fall damage maybe reduce the timer to 1 minute and instead of it resetting each tick make it so it pause during rez, this should remove the rezzing of each other so you can gank one after the other.another option if you want to keep it 5 min: no timer reset and being able to damage the full downed back to 0%.

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@Loosmaster.8263 said:

@Gondolph.7201 said:my suggestion on this.Thieves should loose %s of hiding time inside wvw buildings over time. After , say, 20 minutes their hiding time should continuously decrease. Just to give them some balance.

In reality there is a Revealed timer after a cap. This should apply to all classes where you
cannot
stealth while you have the debuff. But hey, we're talking WvW here.

I've already brought this subject of the Stealth Trap up on the forums. I don't think they should be revealed during the time after the cap. They should just be subject to the Stealth Trap reveal normally after it is tripped. Plus I've talked to a Dev about it. We'll see what happens in the future.

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@MUDse.7623 said:while i dont see a single deadeye an issue in a keep, a group of 3 is. but that is mainly because what the defenders have to do to avoid ressurecting is too much. currently when your full dead every time you get rezzed 1 tick the timer resets to 5 min (it wont show on the actual timer but it does reset, timer stops at 0 and no port then). so the defenders have to make sure no other can come to the target out of combat for 5 minutes. they need to spread AoEs wide and even then the deadeye might shadowstep during an evade on the corpse to rez and only needs 1 tick for another 5 minutes. in such a situation the ressing deadeye is usually not fighting so can adjust his build completely for that. i usually take both defensive lines then SA + Acro and a shadow trap(+nomad gear with mercy runes). place that trap far away, start rezzing when the zerg hits me at 50% my instant reflexes trigger to cover my 'destroy shadow trap' teleport into out of combat thats pretty safe and if i have 5 mins after each tick, then you need ALOT to prevent me rezzing.for all i care full downed could be ported to spawn right away but so you can rez people after fall damage maybe reduce the timer to 1 minute and instead of it resetting each tick make it so it pause during rez, this should remove the rezzing of each other so you can gank one after the other.another option if you want to keep it 5 min: no timer reset and being able to damage the full downed back to 0%.

Love the idea of no rezz reset of the down timer. And the idea of instant spawn port after dying is probably a good idea too.

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GW2 I like to call it Ghost Thief 2.0: Thermal-nuclear alpha War 2.

Apparently one/four-shots (under spammable new target Quickness boon) is OK from invisibility from a game balance standpoint. In as little as 0.6s time to react not including lag, you should know that a DE will attack you while you are engaged with any other activity (taking a camp, sentry, running seige, standing on a point for capture, running from point A to B, etc.) You aren't safe even in your own towers/keeps because a DE may be inside so don't afk.

In all seriousness, Thief does not ruin WvW. Deadeye ruins WvW.

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currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

that is no fun anymore.

Maybe,just maybe people run on specs like this because as you describe you're a Zerg trying to get 3 people.If they wouldnt have run stealth,you would chase those 3 people down with your Zerg untill those 3 people are dead and jump happily away.But now youre so unhappy after you failing as a Zerg to get 3 people you feel the need to complain about it on the forum because its not easy enough for a ZERG to kill 3 people.

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Tell your warriors to run "On my Mark" it has multiple charges and if they Shadow Meld to remove the reveal you can simply use it again until they run out. Most of these issues could be prevented if people were a bit smarter about what they are doing. Thieves that hide can often make use of things like line of sight, a concept 5 levels above what the average WvW player could ever grasp

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@"Blocki.4931" said:Tell your warriors to run "On my Mark" it has multiple charges and if they Shadow Meld to remove the reveal you can simply use it again until they run out. Most of these issues could be prevented if people were a bit smarter about what they are doing. Thieves that hide can often make use of things like line of sight, a concept 5 levels above what the average WvW player could ever grasp

Yep. A Couple of warriors running On My Mark , used in conjunction with a tight knit group (ie rotating the use of the skill and having ranged users ready to fire on reveal or people with ports to port to target) will see most DE's die or flee.

A lot of this gets back to people not wanting to trait Utilities that do not just add more to damage. When the very first reveals released there were all manner of complaints about stealth. There are always complaints about stealth and this BEFORE smeld yet man did not trait those reveals. The excuse used then was "There are better skills to use then reveal as the reveals take away from my damage".

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