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Thieves ruin WvW


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OP maybe from 2018 or 2020 thieves still need a 50% reduction in stealth . Thieves are waaaaay over powered because of the excess stealth and will remain over powered until the Devs pull their heads out of their back sides and look .They should never have created a counter to a counter on any class and Shadow Meld was the biggest kitten up they could have made.

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@Mokk.2397 said:OP maybe from 2018 or 2020 thieves still need a 50% reduction in stealth . Thieves are waaaaay over powered because of the excess stealth and will remain over powered until the Devs pull their heads out of their back sides and look .They should never have created a counter to a counter on any class and Shadow Meld was the biggest kitten up they could have made.

Hard CC, stability, boon corrupt and party cleanse might have something to say about counters to counters.

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@bluberblasen.9684 said:in a competitive game ( talking more pvp side than wvw ) a stealth class should NEVER ever exist.stealth is NOT balanceable ( apart from RTS games like star craft )

In WoW the rogue with its infinite stealth is pretty balanced in wotlk expansion.A rogue can go stealth when ever and where ever he want for as long as he wants.A geared rogue can 1shot low geared targets, but not ppl with pvp gear that have enough resi.They should nerf every 1shot ability to the ground.Especially warrior rifle, i think the dmg nerf is not enough.

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@mrfrostybeer.9328 said:the fact is, i run into many many new players and they don't go to WvW, because the skill level is imposing. I've seen it over and over, i go to a BL, and a couple new players get absolutely pulverized by a thief. New people wont mind getting defeated, but i see them get assassinated from a thief who pops out of stealth and one shots them. Thief class doesn't belong in the game because the people that are really good at thief all gravitate to single target assassination (which is cool, don't get me wrong) but NOT a good way to give new players the time needed for them to find something to love about WvW. Every encounter I see, a thief will employ the ooc regen 'ability'? skill doesn't matter what it is or how it works, or its 'moral' etc. ..bla bla bla. The issue i speak of is we NEED new players. thiefs that have no goal other than to find some single roamer and grief him as he is trying to take a camp or a monument for his daily is cheesey and underhanded. Mostly that dude is gonna say 'forget wvw, ill go play something else'. They have nothing invested in the game and many of these predator thieves are too ego-centric to realize they are killing off the very thing that makes wvw fun..LOTS OF PLAYER. your like lions eating all the zebras or some kitten..your gonna go extinct. so cool your kitten, if u see a single dude with NO rank..leave him be unless he attacks you first. Employ some honor if you can.

so u necro dead topic, but ill answer..

a thief doing as u said in first few lines (as i stopped reading) isnt a good thief.. i mean i can do all day long what ur saying.personally i dont get any joy out of bashing some1 who is a free kill.. if i wanted this id would go PvE more rewarding and same shit..i rather lose hard fights then win the easy no brain fights all day long.

so tbh i dont know any thief who enjoys doing this shitty 1 bang over and over and over again unless they are trolling some1 who just talked to much shite somewhere ;)

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The thing I hate about thieves and mesmers are the amount of time they make you waste. Very difficult to lock down, and if they decide to drag the fight out you could be there for a long fucking time. Now, I just ignore them. If they stop attacking, good , I can move on to better more rewarding things. If they decide to keep attacking then I just let them kill me, so I can move on to better more rewarding things.

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@noot.8641 said:

@bluberblasen.9684 said:in a competitive game ( talking more pvp side than wvw ) a stealth class should NEVER ever exist.stealth is NOT balanceable ( apart from RTS games like star craft )

In WoW the rogue with its infinite stealth is pretty balanced in wotlk expansion.i dont think infinite stealth is balanced :/A rogue can go stealth when ever and where ever he want for as long as he wants.seems not very fair / balanced... :/A geared rogue can 1shot low geared targets, but not ppl with pvp gear that have enough resi.They should nerf every 1shot ability to the ground.agreeEspecially warrior rifle, i think the dmg nerf is not enough.agree

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@Dralor.3701 said:This isn’t solely a thief issue. Mesmer is just as unfun to play against, granted they can’t invis for as long.

Both professions need some tweaking but I don’t think most people understand the concept of fun game design.

'I had no special training at all; I am completely self taught.I don’t fit the mold of a visual arts designer or a graphic designer.I just had a strong concept about what a game designer is.Someone who designs projects to make people happy.That’s a game designer’s purpose.'

-Toru Iwatani,Creator of Pac-Man

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@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Dralor.3701 said:This isn’t solely a thief issue. Mesmer is just as unfun to play against, granted they can’t invis for as long.

Both professions need some tweaking but I don’t think most people understand the concept of fun game design.

'I had no special training at all; I am completely self taught.I don’t fit the mold of a visual arts designer or a graphic designer.I just had a strong concept about what a game designer is.Someone who designs projects to make people happy.That’s a game designer’s purpose.'

-Toru Iwatani,Creator of Pac-Man

That’s cool but I’m not sure what point you are trying to make?

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:I think problem with thieves and stealth overall it’s broken due bugs and exploits being used, if that gets resolved stealth gets fixed.

+1Exactly this.I also want to mention; this is the exactly reason why original Anet did not implement them in Guild Wars 1

Exploits and bugs like what? State your case.

I would like to mention them but Anet will immediately remove my post. I would like to also mention; if only Anet kept the original Anet visions of Guild Wars 1; none of this would've been happening. In fact; we would be in a place of throwing ideas of what would make Guild Wars 2 greater

U7AAisT.jpg

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@bluberblasen.9684 said:

@bluberblasen.9684 said:in a competitive game ( talking more pvp side than wvw ) a stealth class should NEVER ever exist.stealth is NOT balanceable ( apart from RTS games like star craft )

In WoW the rogue with its infinite stealth is pretty balanced in wotlk expansion.i dont think infinite stealth is balanced :/A rogue can go stealth when ever and where ever he want for as long as he wants.seems not very fair / balanced... :/A geared rogue can 1shot low geared targets, but not ppl with pvp gear that have enough resi.They should nerf every 1shot ability to the ground.agreeEspecially warrior rifle, i think the dmg nerf is not enough.agree

Actually WoW stealth is balanced around other things that don't exist in gw2.You cannot use regular stealth while in combat, but you can use vanish which had a 5min cooldown(now 2mins), as your get out of jail free card, so stealth is used to initiate and disengage from combat, and then they move into using cc's for combat, which in the beginning was a problem with stunlocking for like 10s being a thing (which means it took them that long to kill you not one shot from stealth), diminishing returns from cc was also a thing in wow.It's detectable if you're running around in front of someone with a visual and audio cue, which means you actually have to approach the target from behind.Taking damage and attacking breaks stealth.It use to have a movement speed penalty.Pure melee class, they don't have a 1500 range rifle build.With those limitations it's easier to have it on infinite duration and 10s cooldown(now 2s) that isn't completely spammable.

But gw2 stealth for thieves is built to constantly use it in combat for damage and support.

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@Gondolph.7201 said:currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

that is no fun anymore.

Permastealth is a broken mechanics.IMHO they should cap at 6 seconds the time you can stay invisible: if you exceed the 6 seconds limit you will get revealed for 4 seconds (so you can not permastealth and 2-3 thieves can no more stack stealth each others).Remove the Detected! effect after marked and rework Shadow Refuge (increasing the healing per pulse for example as trade-off to the loss of invisibility).

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@SehferViega.8725 said:

@Gondolph.7201 said:currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

that is no fun anymore.

Permastealth is a broken mechanics.IMHO they should cap at 6 seconds the time you can stay invisible: if you exceed the 6 seconds limit you will get revealed for 4 seconds (so you can not permastealth and 2-3 thieves can no more stack stealth each others).Remove the
Detected!
effect after marked and rework Shadow Refuge (increasing the healing per pulse for example as trade-off to the loss of invisibility).

I would say 10-4 would be more suitable

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@Burnfall.9573 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:I think problem with thieves and stealth overall it’s broken due bugs and exploits being used, if that gets resolved stealth gets fixed.

+1Exactly this.I also want to mention; this is the exactly reason why original Anet did not implement them in Guild Wars 1

Exploits and bugs like what? State your case.

I would like to mention them but Anet will immediately remove my post. I would like to also mention; if only Anet kept the original Anet visions of Guild Wars 1; none of this would've been happening. In fact; we would be in a place of throwing ideas of what would make Guild Wars 2 greater

U7AAisT.jpg

Sounds more like an unjustified argument tbh. A lot of people are quick to say that thief stealth is broken because of exploits and bugs, but nobody seems to want to actually name them when challenged, and most people that say this also don't seem to actually play thief themselves so it makes me wonder if they even could point it out. If it's a genuine exploit or bug, submit a report and get it fixed. If it's just you not liking or understanding how something works, you probably need to just accept it and move on.

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A class with high access to vertical mobility, stealth and evades has free reign in the large open fields of WvW. There are some builds that are durable or evasive enough to stay aggressive while in melee range ( eg. staff Daredevil, Pistolwhip builds ) but many cannot afford to trade hits and heavily rely on hard kiting and spiking.

There are numerous areas in WvW that cannot be teleported to or that are awkward to maneuver. Narrow hills, ledges, etc. are the best places to linger near when dealing with Thieves. First consider whether or not the location is more beneficial to you or to them, if the former, use it as a pillar of defense to force the Thief in to over extending. Next, if extending beyond it's location, return to it when/if you're pressured to force the Thief in to a bad position if they want to continue pressuring you.

You will not always have the advantage of terrain, but it is an important thing to consider. Some builds may not want to force melee fights or may be stronger in an open field ( eg. Ranger ) but that doesn't mean you can't use certain locations to cushion you when dealing with something that has as much mobility as a Thief. There are more mechanics to combat than just skills and traits so always remember to consider these variables.

Stealth in general is a poorly designed mechanic, but with practice, there are plenty of tells that can make dealing with it much easier. I won't disagree that there are times you can't do much to fight against it, such as when there are multiple Deadeyes targeting you, but times like those ( outnumbered ) will be just as unfortunate for you whether they have stealth or not.

I do think stealth can be used excessively by certain builds and can carry people through otherwise fight deciding mistakes, but I don't think Thieves ruin WvW. I think they chase away the people who shouldn't be in WvW anyway.

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