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Thieves ruin WvW


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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:A class with high access to vertical mobility, stealth and evades has free reign in the large open fields of WvW. There are some builds that are durable or evasive enough to stay aggressive while in melee range ( eg. staff Daredevil, Pistolwhip builds ) but many cannot afford to trade hits and heavily rely on hard kiting and spiking.

There are numerous areas in WvW that cannot be teleported to or that are awkward to maneuver. Narrow hills, ledges, etc. are the best places to linger near when dealing with Thieves. First consider whether or not the location is more beneficial to you or to them, if the former, use it as a pillar of defense to force the Thief in to over extending. Next, if extending beyond it's location, return to it when/if you're pressured to force the Thief in to a bad position if they want to continue pressuring you.

You will not always have the advantage of terrain, but it is an important thing to consider. Some builds may not want to force melee fights or may be stronger in an open field ( eg. Ranger ) but that doesn't mean you can't use certain locations to cushion you when dealing with something that has as much mobility as a Thief. There are more mechanics to combat than just skills and traits so always remember to consider these variables.

Stealth in general is a poorly designed mechanic, but with practice, there are plenty of tells that can make dealing with it much easier. I won't disagree that there are times you can't do much to fight against it, such as when there are multiple Deadeyes targeting you, but times like those ( outnumbered ) will be just as unfortunate for you whether they have stealth or not.

I do think stealth can be used excessively by certain builds and can carry people through otherwise fight deciding mistakes, but I don't think Thieves ruin WvW. I think they chase away the people who shouldn't be in WvW anyway.

Some thief builds are fine but those relying so heavily on stealth are not. There is no counter play and there is no fun to be had by anyone having to fight them. Saying someone doesn’t belong in WvW because they don’t enjoy fighting a build with infinite resets is ridiculous.

If anything abet has just made it worse with deadeye when it was already a huge problem.

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@kash.9213 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:I think problem with thieves and stealth overall it’s broken due bugs and exploits being used, if that gets resolved stealth gets fixed.

+1Exactly this.I also want to mention; this is the exactly reason why original Anet did not implement them in Guild Wars 1

Exploits and bugs like what? State your case.

I would like to mention them but Anet will immediately remove my post. I would like to also mention; if only Anet kept the original Anet visions of Guild Wars 1; none of this would've been happening. In fact; we would be in a place of throwing ideas of what would make Guild Wars 2 greater

U7AAisT.jpg

Sounds more like an unjustified argument tbh. A lot of people are quick to say that thief stealth is broken because of exploits and bugs, but nobody seems to want to actually name them when challenged, and most people that say this also don't seem to actually play thief themselves so it makes me wonder if they even could point it out. If it's a genuine exploit or bug, submit a report and get it fixed. If it's just you not liking or understanding how something works, you probably need to just accept it and move on.

Thief Profession exploits has been
posted on the forums numerous times including myself
. To be honest; there are no such things as genuine exploit or genuine bugs. If Anet is quickly ready to throw it under the rug and or ready to punish anyone for exposing it....how is it genuine?

. Falsifying The Truth is Covering Up The Truth

For the record; 'it is not about me not liking or not understanding how something works'; which I clearly do....it is about Anet intention of continually allowing it to happen by throwing it under the rug and stating that they they care about us

Their action speaks to everyone including myself

Everyone Deserve Truth.........No one deserve Half-Truth....... Nor Falsifying Truth

Accept It Or Not!!

Truth is Truth And That's That!!

(Jugglemonkey, you and I have been here long enough and we know better than that)

You and one or two other of your accounts posting the same chopped up and way out of date videos isn't some scandalous smoking gun of thief exploits.

i have no one or two other accounts. If you have been in the game long enough; you would know of Thief Profession exploits.( it doesn't take long to know it and to see it being happening openly) In fact; few minutes ago, i just finished helping a player (Thief) with a living world story because she kept dying. She's been in the game in about 1 year and had told me that other Thief Players used stealth and teleport exploits to finish the story she was struggling with. Like other Thief Profession players who doesn't believe in cheating including herself; (although that is what stealth and teleport design in the game function as)...anyhow. I finally was able to take some time to help her.

The whole point to this is; Thief Profession design is Toxic because it can be exploitable and Anet know it and allows it to continue for years. Every posts of Thief Profession exploits in the forum posts are take down and thrown under the carpet.

In fact: PvP is clearly evidence of it. 8 years of reports of players of all professions has openly reported it to Anet and all result in Nothingless.

And many of those players who reports those exploits are punished so what else is left to do? (see>Ncsoft 2019 Financial Report) They leave and spread the news that Exploits are permissible by design in Guild Wars 2 and that they were punished for doing the right thing.

That is why i contest Thief Profession to be completely redesign because everything about their core design are exploitable and are Toxic. If that can not be done; than the only option left is to remove them completely alongside with their Toxic elements from the game.

((there are evidence why Toxicity is kept on a leech in Guild Wars 1))

see>> Guild Wars 2: Thief Profession

(-once again; i have absolutely nothing against Thief Profession players (see all my posts) but in their core designs-)

--Thief Profession Need To Be Seriously Dealt With Or Be Completely Removed From The Game!!--

PERIOD!!

by the way, PvP, PvE, Mesmer, Ranger, Necromancer, Elementalist and Warrior were not Toxic until Thief Profession came to Guild Wars

Their Toxic Design Ruined Everything For Everyone!

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If things get to the point where thieves can destroy you without you being able to do anything then sure I'd agree something probably needs to change, but currently there's generally always a way for someone to hit the thief back if they need to do so. Hell the ever so common argument of them just being able to stealth away and not die isn't even really an argument since if you force them to run you've won the fight and objective regardless if you got a kill or not.

That being said infinite stealth up time is stupid but should be dealt with in the upcoming patch.

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I don't think nerfing or removing stealth for thieves overall would be the solution, otherwise you'd have other stealth users coming up and ruining stuff too, not to mention it would be unfair for a class built around the use of stealth have it robbed from them but not for others. (Ranger w/ Longbow 3, Mesmers, Scrappers, etc).

Not to mention there are times where stealth is useless, even as a DE, some keeps/towers with scouting can screw your stealth up, even with your Elite skill.

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@"Imperious.4298" said:I don't think nerfing or removing stealth for thieves overall would be the solution, otherwise you'd have other stealth users coming up and ruining stuff too, not to mention it would be unfair for a class built around the use of stealth have it robbed from them but not for others. (Ranger w/ Longbow 3, Mesmers, Scrappers, etc).

Not to mention there are times where stealth is useless, even as a DE, some keeps/towers with scouting can screw your stealth up, even with your Elite skill.

+1

Agree, that is why i ask for stealth to completely be removed from the game including all other professions

Healthy Competitiveness Requires Fairness To All

Excuses, Exceptions And Trade Offs Are The Reason Why This Game Balance Remains A Big Joke

That is why Thief Profession Toxicity never goes away, there's always something else that remains intentionally unresolved

-Instead of redesigning Thief Profession for the better end, let's pretend it's something else

-Instead of removing root cause problems indefinitely; let's leave it and focus on something else.......it'll go away

The next upcoming patch must remove all root cause problems from all professions alike

ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS!!

fhoAtAk.jpg

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2020 and people still don't know how to fight thieves XDDon't worry, everyone getting nerfed and anet will work the things that are over/under performing after this "reset", and though I am doubtful, they do imply that the cadence between changes will be faster.

Out of all this, I just want a smoother gaming experience... please no more lag spikes. Tunnel me to a closer aws server to act as a proxy. Anything. Balance can turn itself inside out but it wouldn't matter if I didn't have stable ping in the first place. Getting really bad last few days.

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The problem with Stealth is not Stealth being strong, but there being no counterplay to it.

The only mobile detection is Sniff on Mount but there is no chance for that in an ongoing fight. (and Sniff seems to bug or not detect often anyway)Deploying Target painter during a fight is also out of the question because it leaves yu extremely vulnerable by stowing yur weapon to bring it up.

Only other method of combating stealth is to run to a friendly sentry or tower with detection but that already means the Stealth abusing player has won, pushing yu back into safety and hindering yur movement on the map.

My suggestion would be simple : Target Painter marks and reveals in a 1000 AoE around the caster instead of being deployed, and is put into a Special Action key, has a cooldown, and costs supply.

People can argue that this will totally rob any Stealth oriented profession or build of their capability to fight, but to be honest such builds shouldn't even exist in the first place because blatant abuse of a mechanic is extremely unhealthy.(Just like people hating CC locking Warriors or Clone spamming Mirages)

TL:DR Stealth is a bad crutch. Give all players limited ability to strip Stealth.

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:A class with high access to vertical mobility, stealth and evades has free reign in the large open fields of WvW. There are some builds that are durable or evasive enough to stay aggressive while in melee range ( eg. staff Daredevil, Pistolwhip builds ) but many cannot afford to trade hits and heavily rely on hard kiting and spiking.

There are numerous areas in WvW that cannot be teleported to or that are awkward to maneuver. Narrow hills, ledges, etc. are the best places to linger near when dealing with Thieves. First consider whether or not the location is more beneficial to you or to them, if the former, use it as a pillar of defense to force the Thief in to over extending. Next, if extending beyond it's location, return to it when/if you're pressured to force the Thief in to a bad position if they want to continue pressuring you.

You will not always have the advantage of terrain, but it is an important thing to consider. Some builds may not want to force melee fights or may be stronger in an open field ( eg. Ranger ) but that doesn't mean you can't use certain locations to cushion you when dealing with something that has as much mobility as a Thief. There are more mechanics to combat than just skills and traits so always remember to consider these variables.

Stealth in general is a poorly designed mechanic, but with practice, there are plenty of tells that can make dealing with it much easier. I won't disagree that there are times you can't do much to fight against it, such as when there are multiple Deadeyes targeting you, but times like those ( outnumbered ) will be just as unfortunate for you whether they have stealth or not.

I do think stealth can be used excessively by certain builds and can carry people through otherwise fight deciding mistakes, but I don't think Thieves ruin WvW. I think they chase away the people who shouldn't be in WvW anyway.

if anyone does not belong into wvw it is thieves who attack you for 10+k damage out of stealth, vanish into stealth and finish you off a couple of secs later. Or just outright oneshot you.

Thief is broken. They can attack when THEY want, without any warning. They can disengage at will and if they finally get out of stealth they are halfway across the map. If one class needs to go away, it is thief.

Either thief gets 50-75% of its damage taken away (plus the nerfs coming tuesday) OR stealth needs to be removed. Anything else is just continuing the broken trainwreck.

It is not about 'not fun'. It is about 'absolutely broken'.

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If you play a zerky light armor build then you will get one shot... not just by DE... but by pretty much everyone else.

I play with and against DE. Rifle DE is easy to spot and dodge. Rifle is so clunky and slow even in Kneel... its actually frustrating. The Devs have completely gutted this spec since PoF, its so weak. You rely on unsuspecting targets because thats the ONLY way for you kill someone who isnt a complete noob. The initiative cost on rifle skills limits you so much, that if you miss (which is a good 80%) of the time, you’re screwed. You have no other choice but to run and hide.

Permastealth is weak against heavy armor classes even against Engis and Rangers. Why because these classes have insane passives that protects them. Like what someone here already mentioned, DE relies on active defense which is stealth because they don’t have a lot of options for passives unless you pick Acro... which is niche to sword/pistol or core thief.

Try fighting weavers who can tank a group.

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@"DragonSlayer.1087" said:If you play a zerky light armor build then you will get one shot... not just by DE... but by pretty much everyone else.

I play with and against DE. Rifle DE is easy to spot and dodge. Rifle is so clunky and slow even in Kneel... its actually frustrating. The Devs have completely gutted this spec since PoF, its so weak. You rely on unsuspecting targets because thats the ONLY way for you kill someone who isnt a complete noob. The initiative cost on rifle skills limits you so much, that if you miss (which is a good 80%) of the time, you’re screwed. You have no other choice but to run and hide.

Permastealth is weak against heavy armor classes even against Engis and Rangers. Why because these classes have insane passives that protects them. Like what someone here already mentioned, DE relies on active defense which is stealth because they don’t have a lot of options for passives unless you pick Acro... which is niche to sword/pistol or core thief.

Try fighting weavers who can tank a group.

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@"jgeezz.7832" said:People are just dumb thief's can only travel between A and B. A being the place where they transport to get to target at B. 1 guy at A 1 at B and you got a dead thief, because the only other thing he can do is run. You use AOE and DOTs and the thief is a dead thief.

sure, people are 'just dumb' right? A Thief Profession players sent me this video. I encourage you to say that. Guild Wars 2 Thief Profession design is by far the worst design in gaming at the moment. Broken Bad Design and Excuses are written all over this Profession and because of it, it is a laughing stock to other gaming rogue stealth classes/professions/jobs. Anet refusal to redesign them is clear sign that they do not care to promote a healthy competitive game experience in Guild Wars 2 and will continue to find other temporary alternative solutions for them just to 'hush up the community' and to minimize their true potential 'to the teeth'.

Thief Profession will find a way out the upcoming 'nerf patch' and will once again, laugh at it.....just like the others

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:

Those people in the clips... they even ignore the de and mine nodes lel, whilst others actually see it approaching and still ignore it. The de is just bottom feeding on the lower ranks and easy kills, nothing really to see here, you could kill those guys easily on any other class really tbh. I'm actually shocked at some of those players - the de even runs up close before even bothering to stealth on some of them. These are just bad players and pretty much why they are used in the clip.
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@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@"Burnfall.9573" said:
Those people in the clips... they even ignore the de and mine nodes lel, whilst others actually see it approaching and still ignore it. The de is just bottom feeding on the lower ranks and easy kills, nothing really to see here, you could kill those guys easily on any other class really tbh. I'm actually shocked at some of those players - the de even runs up close before even bothering to stealth on some of them. These are just bad players and pretty much why they are used in the clip.

they are always 'bad players' the usual

(what i find interesting, Thief Profession players even uses the word Toxicity as a meme' in their game play and even attach it to their name to describe how Broken and Toxic Thief Profession is and yet you say otherwise)

-i encourage you to ask these Thief Profession players in the videos of how 'bad' those players are....dying to Toxic Bad Design- i can even provide additional Thief Profession players if needed.....as many as you want. They also know Thief Profession mechanics inside-out without any B.S

actually here is one as a start- soon to be the next meta in line

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@Burnfall.9573 said:

Those people in the clips... they even ignore the de and mine nodes lel, whilst others actually see it approaching and still ignore it. The de is just bottom feeding on the lower ranks and easy kills, nothing really to see here, you could kill those guys easily on any other class really tbh. I'm actually shocked at some of those players - the de even runs up close before even bothering to stealth on some of them. These are just bad players and pretty much why they are used in the clip.

they are always 'bad players' the usual

(what i find interesting, Thief Profession players even uses the word Toxicity as a meme' in their game play and even attach it to their name to describe how Broken and Toxic Thief Profession is and yet you say otherwise)

-i encourage you to ask these Thief Profession players in the videos of how 'bad' those players are....dying to Toxic Bad Design- i can even provide additional Thief Profession players if needed.....as many as you want. They also know Thief Profession mechanics inside-out without any B.S

actually here is one as a start- soon to be the next meta in line

And again you mislead people by showing them only what is beneficial to you. You say that the Arena does nothing to thieves and allows this style of play to exist with impunity from the beginning of the centuries. This video is from September 3, 2019. But the Anet reacted and this build was badly nerfed after 1 month with hotfixes and new patch. Like the rest of the condi builds due to changes in the Deadly Arts. Which by the standards of Anet is pretty fast. And with the new patch will be nerfed even more.And in this video there are no one-shots, no permastealth. It's just rifle 2 skill spam.But of course you do not want to tell about this. Since this is contrary to your statements.All classes in the game have toxic braindead builds.

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@Dzheen.5291 said:

Those people in the clips... they even ignore the de and mine nodes lel, whilst others actually see it approaching and still ignore it. The de is just bottom feeding on the lower ranks and easy kills, nothing really to see here, you could kill those guys easily on any other class really tbh. I'm actually shocked at some of those players - the de even runs up close before even bothering to stealth on some of them. These are just bad players and pretty much why they are used in the clip.

they are always 'bad players' the usual

(what i find interesting, Thief Profession players even uses the word Toxicity as a meme' in their game play and even attach it to their name to describe how Broken and Toxic Thief Profession is and yet you say otherwise)

-i encourage you to ask these Thief Profession players in the videos of how 'bad' those players are....dying to Toxic Bad Design- i can even provide additional Thief Profession players if needed.....as many as you want. They also know Thief Profession mechanics inside-out without any B.S

actually here is one as a start- soon to be the next meta in line

And again you mislead people by showing them only what is beneficial to you. You say that the Arena does nothing to thieves and allows this style of play to exist with impunity from the beginning of the centuries. This video is from September 3, 2019. But the Anet reacted and this build was badly nerfed after 1 month with hotfixes and new patch. Like the rest of the condi builds due to changes in the Deadly Arts. Which by the standards of Anet is pretty fast. And with the new patch will be nerfed even more.And in this video there are no one-shots, no permastealth. It's just rifle 2 skill spam.But of course you do not want to tell about this. Since this is contrary to your statements.All classes in the game have toxic braindead builds.

You say contrary? you did not bother to read my post and why i even posted that video to begin with. It is quite understandable why you are quick to defend Thief Profession without giving yourself a chance to see what the other person have to say.

-Anet has a business to maintain and are given choices to promote healthy competition to players who are ready to defend it-

I have nothing more to say to you

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:

You say contrary? you did not bother to read my post and why i even posted that video to begin with. It is quite understandable why you are quick to defend Thief Profession without giving yourself a chance to see what the other person have to say.

I have nothing more to say to you

Of course you have nothing to say, because you can't say anything constructive and logical.I read your post. You said: " i encourage you to ask these Thief Profession players in the videos of how 'bad' those players are....dying to Toxic Bad Design ". And by "Toxic Bad Design" you mean stealth and damage from stealth. This follows from your previous posts.Like this:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1167385#Comment_1167385and in many others before.I pointed out that this video has nothing to do with the overuse of stealth, nor with the huge damage from stealth. It shows how some traits, like Panic Strike, Potent Poison, was OP. And how with spamming 1 skill you can kill enemies. But developers nerfed them quick enough. Thats why author named his video "Toxic". He said that in comments.But with whom i try to talk? You can't admit your mistakes. You like a crazy man on the conner with sign "The End Is Near!!!! Anet Toxic. Thief Toxic. In GW1 was no Thief. I was happy".

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