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People are getting rocked by scourge. Stop.


mistsim.2748

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@masskillerxploit.2165 said:No they don't, if spellbreaker doesnt do more, it does the same. I think it does more since the damage is alot more reliable with some of the heavy hitting damage skills being unblockable. Also its not about the meta, its how the build performs in the GAME MODE CONQUEST. Its too good on node in all situations: 1) outnumbered fights, 2) rotation speed, 3)1v1s, 4)teamfights, 5)2v2s.

It just doesn't. Spellbreaker doesn't hit as hard as something like Berserker. That's quite literally math, since they have less damage modifiers in their traits. If your point is that their damage is more reliable, I agree. But they get that reliability by trading damage potential. And even then, there are plenty of evades that make even those more reliable unblockable skills pointless.

1) Yes, it does well when outnumbered since someone will probably be dumb, attack into FC and mess up your timing so you don't dodge it. However it still pretty much relies on someone playing badly.2) I wouldn't say it's particularly fast at rotating, daggers give more mobility options along with GS but other classes do it MUCH better. Warriors have no ports.3) They're good at dueling, but as we said previously the fact that FC is frontloaded is a flaw that puts them at disadvantage if you know how to exploit it.4) I guess they're ok at teamfights? Mainly because of FC since someone is bound to pop it, not really for anything else. Wouldn't say it's their strong point.5) As per number 1, they do well outnumbered. But if you focus the other player first the SB will do much less damage since you won't pop FC, and then you can 2v1 him.

How is that OP worthy in conquest? It's not like they can hunker down on points and stay there forever, SB aren't bunkers.

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@masskillerxploit.2165 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:

@Exciton.8942 said:Because most meta PvP builds are built around contesting caps and focus on melee damage.

To counter scourge, you need long range dps, things like deadeye or longbow ranger. But these specs are very situational. It is very easy to counter them by bringing in support like scrapper and tempest. Or you can also just send daredevil and mesmers to harrass them.

So in the end, the counter to scourge is too niche to run and scourge can run freely on the field as a result.

there are some really hardy Soulbeast LB builds that wouldnt be hardcountered by daredevils or mesmers. right now in low plat im running glassbow with ease, but i know once I move up i'll probably have to run a Demolisher build.

If you go against any competent players, you will be the reason your team lost with that build.

lol. big words little man. very charged, yet presumptive.

im talking from experience... i know you have no idea who i am. maybe you know me as Ferox? been competing in spvp since forever in all of the tournaments you havnt probably even heard of. and im not talking about the recent ATs. Take what i say as advice not kitten talk.

i dont think it really matters who you are. you may think you have it all figured out, but the e-specs just released and there are a lot of combinations and builds even the most experienced players arent familiar with yet.

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@Zeghart.9841 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:No they don't, if spellbreaker doesnt do more, it does the same. I think it does more since the damage is alot more reliable with some of the heavy hitting damage skills being unblockable. Also its not about the meta, its how the build performs in the GAME MODE CONQUEST. Its too good on node in all situations: 1) outnumbered fights, 2) rotation speed, 3)1v1s, 4)teamfights, 5)2v2s.

It just doesn't. Spellbreaker doesn't hit as hard as something like Berserker. That's quite literally math, since they have less damage modifiers in their traits. If your point is that their damage is more reliable, I agree. But they get that reliability by trading damage potential. And even then, there are plenty of evades that make even those more reliable unblockable skills pointless.

1) Yes, it does well when outnumbered since someone will probably be kitten, pop FC and mess up your timing so you don't dodge it. However it still pretty much relies on someone playing badly.2) I wouldn't say it's particularly fast at rotating, daggers give more mobility options along with GS but other classes do it
MUCH
better. Warriors have no ports.3) They're good at dueling, but as we said previously the fact that FC is frontloaded is a flaw that puts them at disadvantage if you know how to exploit it.4) I guess they're ok at teamfights? Mainly because of FC since someone is bound to pop it, not really for anything else. Wouldn't say it's their strong point.5) As per number 1, they do well outnumbered. But if you focus the other player first the SB will do much less damage since you won't pop FC, and then you can 2v1 him.

How is that OP worthy in conquest? It's not like they can hunker down on points and stay there forever, SB aren't bunkers.

I feel for chaith.. he actually puts alot of time combating forum autism. How can you argu agaisnt someone whos opinion isnt based reality but rather a scenario made up in your inexperienced big head?

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@mistsim.2748 said:because they keep eating all the aoe condi bombs. i really dont get it. it's an easy spec to destroy, it's squishy AF. just stay at 900-1200, kite it, and kill it. im losing a ton of games because my teammates keep feeding enemy scourges. they dont bring condi cleanse, they dont kite, they over-commit. if enemy team has 2x scourge and we have less or none, game is over. pretty frustrating, especially when people see it as "OP" and are spamming it. at least 3-4 scourge in every game.

the biggest annoyance by far though for me is that I literally have to play my glassbow ranger to melt these guys, otherwise people will just feed forever. and i really didnt wanna go back to the glassbow.

Wanna know the main reason I left ele for ranger?.....ranged burst

When it comes to ranged burst, nothing get close to ranger so obviously on ranger I won't have troubles dealing with necros in general, that knockback LB makes the act of fightning necros quite easy I'd say, if the necro get close I have plenty of ways to get away from him on a ranger.My question to you now..."how do you replicate the same feats on other professions?"; not everybody can fight at range as effectively as ranger.

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@ugrakarma.9416 said:i play scourge cuz i find condi bomb fun, yeah is trollish. but i will tell the secret: the worst nightmare for scourge are reapers, when i see one i run.

is that a joke? the mechanics of scourge literally... by definition... counter reaper. The only difference between reaper and scourge is that reaper has to run into your sand shades otherwise you both have access to the same weapon skills/utilites.

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@mistsim.2748 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:

@Exciton.8942 said:Because most meta PvP builds are built around contesting caps and focus on melee damage.

To counter scourge, you need long range dps, things like deadeye or longbow ranger. But these specs are very situational. It is very easy to counter them by bringing in support like scrapper and tempest. Or you can also just send daredevil and mesmers to harrass them.

So in the end, the counter to scourge is too niche to run and scourge can run freely on the field as a result.

there are some really hardy Soulbeast LB builds that wouldnt be hardcountered by daredevils or mesmers. right now in low plat im running glassbow with ease, but i know once I move up i'll probably have to run a Demolisher build.

If you go against any competent players, you will be the reason your team lost with that build.

lol. big words little man. very charged, yet presumptive.

im talking from experience... i know you have no idea who i am. maybe you know me as Ferox? been competing in spvp since forever in all of the tournaments you havnt probably even heard of. and im not talking about the recent ATs. Take what i say as advice not kitten talk.

i dont think it really matters who you are. you may think you have it all figured out, but the e-specs just released and there are a lot of combinations and builds even the most experienced players arent familiar with yet.

So if a Physics student went to the professor and said: "I dont think it really matters who you are, you may think you have Physics figured out, but the newest edition of the Physics textbook just came out and there is different combinations of formulas that even you, the professor, are not familiar with yet."

That doesn't make much sense does it? #purifytheforums

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@masskillerxploit.2165 said:I feel for chaith.. he actually puts alot of time combating forum kitten. How can you argu agaisnt someone whos opinion isnt based reality but rather a scenario made up in your inexperienced big head?

About as badly as arguing with someone that dismisses points without explanation and throws temper tantrums on the forums.

Have fun buddy.

@Arheundel.6451 said:When it comes to ranged burst, nothing get close to ranger so obviously on ranger I won't have troubles dealing with necros in general, that knockback LB makes the act of fightning necros quite easy I'd say, if the necro get close I have plenty of ways to get away from him on a ranger.My question to you now..."how do you replicate the same feats on other professions?"; not everybody can fight at range as effectively as ranger.

To be fair it's something I've always wanted in GW2, more dedicated hard counters instead of more of a free-for-all. There's this concept in the game where every class and every build is supposed to be able to deal with almost everything, which frankly just makes balance incredibly difficult in the end, especially as specs keep being introduced. Having more direct counters would make things a lot more interesting, but it's very hard to pull off unless there are enough working dedicated specializations and builds to fill enough roles. Which I'm honestly not very hopeful for.

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Anet needs to make points much bigger, I mean much bigger. They are too tiny. The biggest problem with the spellbreaker and scourge is that you have to fight them on a tiny circle. There isn't much you can do about that other than leaving the point entirely to kite. But that isn't helping you get the point, that is actually contrast.

Skills are overtuned now, this is to be expected. What anet should of did was end the season early or locked out the new trait line out of ranked pvp until after it was done.

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@masskillerxploit.2165 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:

@Zeghart.9841 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:UH? Warrior still has burst adrenal skills, skills such as Break Enchantments, Bullscharge into 100blades or anyother combo, rampage.. kitten even dodging on zerk amy does a decent amount of dmg with the dodge roll dmg trait. Full counter is just another way for someone to hit 0 on the warrior, on top of using it get to cripple its enemies and kite away with the cripple/slow on fullcounter trait.

t1 bursts, which are pretty laughable. Break Enchantments hits decently, but doesn't offer much and a lot of Spellbreakers would rather take stances and/or featherfoot grace for survivability, since they'll die without them. Same for Bull's Charge, except that's also useless if not traited and if the enemy has a stunbreak. Reckless dodge isn't really burst damage, you'd have to get rolled over for two minutes for it to add up. That's without mentioning how plentiful blocks and dodges are for everything else.

Really the only way for a Spellbreaker to burst you down without FC is if you get CC'd, do nothing about it and stay inside Hundred Blades for the full duration.

What are you running? magi amy? have you ever fought any good warriors such as Crysis, thermite, mur, helio.. etc.. they burst you down in seconds while most of the time you hit 0s on them.

And we are talking about conquest here, since this is the PvP forum. I hate it when people think you can just sit off node 100% of the time to avoid everything a scourge and warrior does, and act like every class has unlimited dodges and movement skills. This is conquest, you stand on point to win the game.. along with rotations and teamfights, but if we followed anyone's advice on this forum about 1v1ing scourges or spellbreakers, we would lose 90% of the conquest match ups. Yes you can kite like you explained in your posts in WvW, this is PvP aka Conquest. You can win a 1v1 by just contesting a node and nobody dieing, since you are making points for your team to reach 500.

Correction. You get on a point to cap it. You cap points to win. If you are dead, you won't cap anything. So stop facetanking damage.

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@lmaogg.7325 said:

@Kuya.6495 said:

Correction. You get on a point to cap it. You cap points to win. If you are dead, you won't cap anything. So stop facetanking damage.

Yup going by this logic, 5 scourge meta inc. So no one get to cap points if they are late because they will be facetanking damage.

Because obviously the lowest mobility class with the least sustain is such a good thing to stack in a gamemode that values mobility and sustain above all else.

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@Aza.2105 said:Anet needs to make points much bigger, I mean much bigger. They are too tiny. The biggest problem with the spellbreaker and scourge is that you have to fight them on a tiny circle. There isn't much you can do about that other than leaving the point entirely to kite. But that isn't helping you get the point, that is actually contrast.

Skills are overtuned now, this is to be expected. What anet should of did was end the season early or locked out the new trait line out of ranked pvp until after it was done.

At the same time, there's not much Scourge and Spellbreaker can do but leave the point entirely and try to engage the kiter, unless they want to die on it and have it decapped right after. Neither of them are bunkers that can just take it.

You're also not helping yourself get the point by simply being on it - you need to get the defender/attacker off it first.Which you probably won't do unless you're running a decapping build, kill the enemy, or force it to rotate.This is PvP after all, conquest or not it's still about fighting.

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There are pretty much 3 scenarios. All 3 of them require you to push onto the node at some point if you want to accomplish something (read through them and read the the paragraph afterwards).a) The node is yours. If you chose to stay on the node, you are forced to take the closeup fight. If you don't (because you have to kite), you lose the cap, which leads the scenario b and eventually c.b) The node is neutral: If you stay on the node, the node will stay neutral until either of you wins the fight, either by scoring a kill or by forcing the other player to kite off node often enough.c) The node is controlled by the enemy player: If you push onto the node, you will end up in closeup 1v1 again. If you don't push onto the node because you want to range attack, any smart opponent will also just leave the node and LoS you until you decide to push onto the node (= you are not kiting anymore)

People act like you can just kite and you will be fine, but the truth is: If you cannot stay on the node, you need to be able to force a kill in a reasonable amount of time. Forcing kills with a ranged weapon (because you don't want to get into the aoe or a closeup 1v1), however, is not going to happen against smart players as they will just LoS you and just cap/decap whenever they is comfortable that he can handle a few shots (e.g. has dodges, blocks etc up). There is a reason why better players practice their 1v1s on nodes and not in an open field scenario. Obviously you kite when you would die otherwise, but kiting has a real price in 1v1 scenarios (capture progress and eventually score).

on a side note: Have they fixed the sandshade bug by now?

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@lmaogg.7325 said:

@Kuya.6495 said:

Correction. You get on a point to cap it. You cap points to win. If you are dead, you won't cap anything. So stop facetanking damage.

Yup going by this logic, 5 scourge meta inc. So no one get to cap points if they are late because they will be facetanking damage.

4 bunkers & a deadeye would farm that. TTK on scourge far too low to make a team out of just that class

as far as fighting scourge off point with range goes, it’s actually a great idea.nodes tick for 1 point every 2 seconds, & you get 5 points for a kill. so if you kill the scourge in under 10 seconds you actually have a positive point gain. killing a necro (who has no ranged defence) with no death shroud is doable in much less than 10 seconds, especially when you can avoid nearly all of their damage by strafing.

so it looks like killing the scourge from offpoint is a great idea. a much better one than going on point to try & contest & dying.

ranger, engineer, thief, & guardian can all output enough damage to put the scourge in the ground. heck, two of those classes even have viable pulls so you can whip that necro offpoint & crush his brittle skull under your big heavy boots.

====

now, this is from a 1v1 perspective. i’d have to see a Unity tournament, or an AT with good players to judge how the damage is in teamfights. it could totally be broken there.

but that doesn’t mean scourge isn’t a free kill 1v1 for a lot of builds.

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@choovanski.5462 said:now, this is from a 1v1 perspective. i’d have to see a Unity tournament, or an AT with good players to judge how the damage is in teamfights. it could totally be broken there.

Scourge with a dedicated support tempest is a monster. It's like the old procmancer + tempest duo, but slightly better because scourge can provide some cleansing and small barriers to the ele.

However scourge is even lower mobility than any reaper build, so it's overall potency in terms of actually winning is debatable.

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@Crinn.7864 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:now, this is from a 1v1 perspective. i’d have to see a Unity tournament, or an AT with good players to judge how the damage is in teamfights. it could totally be broken there.

Scourge with a dedicated support tempest is a monster. It's like the old procmancer + tempest duo, but slightly better because scourge can provide some cleansing and small barriers to the ele.

However scourge is even lower mobility than any reaper build, so it's overall potency in terms of actually winning is debatable.

yeah, i really want to see it in action.

HoT necro had great damage, but struggled with sustain. PoF necro is both of these to an extreme. i wonder how it will end up. could make double bunker (tempest + firebrand) a good choice, which would be interesting. m’ keen to see how it turns out.

still, what i really want to see winning tournaments is: Deadeye, Daredevil & 3 zero damage magi bunkers. Daredevil to counter enemy thief, bunkers to cc & distract enemies while holding points, & Deadeye to be moa on steroids (why moa & focus when you can 1 shot isnta kill avoiding auto proc invuns lol).very unlikely, but would be meme as all heck.

also, good vidoes dude. keep it up B)

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People are probably annoyed based on how they are forced into passively playing a specific set-up just to counter some other builds that get to do whatever they want. It's a matter of one guy being able to press all of his buttons while someone else can't. No, it's not hard to counter a Scourge (debatable about what it takes to deal with a Spellbreaker), but the issue is that doing so is innately frustrating in how it forces a player to play in a certain way (or possibly just run because the build they chose can't win efficiently or at all).

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@Swagg.9236 said:People are probably annoyed based on how they are forced into passively playing a specific set-up just to counter some other builds that get to do whatever they want. It's a matter of one guy being able to press all of his buttons while someone else can't. No, it's not hard to counter a Scourge (debatable about what it takes to deal with a Spellbreaker), but the issue is that doing so is innately frustrating in how it forces a player to play in a certain way (or possibly just run because the build they chose can't win efficiently or at all).

That's it!! People talk about balance and how you have to do this and that. But scourge nor spellbreaker has to adapt to a certain playstyle to win against any other spec. They just spam skills.

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@masskillerxploit.2165 said:If PvP was pure deathmatch then yes, spell breaker and scourge are not super op, but it isnt, its conquest. Spell breaker and scourge are OP on NODE which GETS YOU POINTS to WIN GAME.

Kinda true. If we had some more gamemodes, we could have some more builds that would fit a given mode so that not everyone has to go with a gamemode that forces you to fight on points, and in the end a team with more on-point pressure wins. If we had something like a moving point, or good ol' capture the flag. Of course it should work like spirit watch orb, so that the gamemode doesn't turn into a thief contest of who spams teleports faster.

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@Aza.2105 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:People are probably annoyed based on how they are forced into passively playing a specific set-up just to counter some other builds that get to do whatever they want. It's a matter of one guy being able to press all of his buttons while someone else can't. No, it's not hard to counter a Scourge (debatable about what it takes to deal with a Spellbreaker), but the issue is that doing so is innately frustrating in how it forces a player to play in a certain way (or possibly just run because the build they chose can't win efficiently or at all).

That's it!! People talk about balance and how you have to do this and that. But scourge nor spellbreaker has to adapt to a certain playstyle to win against any other spec. They just spam skills.

rush>zerker stance>headbutt>arcing slice>rifle butt>gunflame>volley>gunflame

that’s scourge dead ez. & it’s just my regular opener with zerker stance popped in

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@choovanski.5462 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:People are probably annoyed based on how they are forced into passively playing a specific set-up just to counter some other builds that get to do whatever they want. It's a matter of one guy being able to press all of his buttons while someone else can't. No, it's not hard to counter a Scourge (debatable about what it takes to deal with a Spellbreaker), but the issue is that doing so is innately frustrating in how it forces a player to play in a certain way (or possibly just run because the build they chose can't win efficiently or at all).

That's it!! People talk about balance and how you have to do this and that. But scourge nor spellbreaker has to adapt to a certain playstyle to win against any other spec. They just spam skills.

rush>zerker stance>headbutt>arcing slice>rifle butt>gunflame>volley>gunflame

that’s scourge dead ez. & it’s just my regular opener with zerker stance popped in

That is too linear to be a realistic and practical gameplan. At any time the scourge can dodge your headbutt. Making your burst non existent.

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