People are getting rocked by scourge. Stop.

[Crinn.7864]

@Aza.2105 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:People are probably annoyed based on how they are forced into passively playing a specific set-up just to counter some other builds that get to do whatever they want. It's a matter of one guy being able to press all of his buttons while someone else can't. No, it's not hard to counter a Scourge (debatable about what it takes to deal with a Spellbreaker), but the issue is that doing so is innately frustrating in how it forces a player to play in a certain way (or possibly just run because the build they chose can't win efficiently or at all).

That's it!! People talk about balance and how you have to do this and that. But scourge nor spellbreaker has to adapt to a certain playstyle to win against any other spec. They just spam skills.

No they don't. I'm sorry but if all you do is "spam skills" you ain't leaving silver.

Also the notion that scourges and spellbreakers somehow don't have to "adapt" to their opponent yet every other build does is just wrong. If you play a scourge and you try to engage a thief the same way you engage a guardian, you are going to get rekt. If you engage a guardian the same way you engage a engi, you will get rekt.

Scourge is brutally LF dependant, if you miss a F skill you've wasted a large sum of LF. You can't afford to "spam skills" because you'll find yourself at zero life force with all of your foes perfectly healthy. You need to be aware of what evades and blocks the opponent has, you need to be aware of what cleanses they have used. Additionally Scourge has minimal sustain and mobility, if you misposition you die, if you rotate wrong you die, if you fail your jumping puzzle you die.

Also if we what to talk about classes that don't have to "adapt" we should look at d/p daredevil which is literally the optimal thief build for every matchup in the game.

[sephiroth.4217]

One day i'll figure out a way to kill those shades... Till then the Scourge can have his node and I'll rotate else where or wait for back up. (melee problems)

[ugrakarma.9416]

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:i play scourge cuz i find condi bomb fun, yeah is trollish. but i will tell the secret: the worst nightmare for scourge are reapers, when i see one i run.

is that a joke? the mechanics of scourge literally... by definition... counter reaper. The only difference between reaper and scourge is that reaper has to run into your sand shades otherwise you both have access to the same weapon skills/utilites.

Reaper Shroud fast decimate Condi Scourge, plus all condi control that Core Necro have. The condi scourge ppl use for trolling dont have defense against Reaper 5 and 4 combo, even plaguing him with all condis. Ofc im talking about pure condi Scourge.

[Amityel.5324]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:People are probably annoyed based on how they are forced into passively playing a specific set-up just to counter some other builds that get to do whatever they want. It's a matter of one guy being able to press all of his buttons while someone else can't. No, it's not hard to counter a Scourge (debatable about what it takes to deal with a Spellbreaker), but the issue is that doing so is innately frustrating in how it forces a player to play in a certain way (or possibly just run because the build they chose can't win efficiently or at all).

That's it!! People talk about balance and how you have to do this and that. But scourge nor spellbreaker has to adapt to a certain playstyle to win against any other spec. They just spam skills.

No they don't. I'm sorry but if all you do is "spam skills" you ain't leaving silver.

Also the notion that scourges and spellbreakers somehow don't have to "adapt" to their opponent yet every other build does is just wrong. If you play a scourge and you try to engage a thief the same way you engage a guardian, you are going to get rekt. If you engage a guardian the same way you engage a engi, you will get rekt.

Scourge is brutally LF dependant, if you miss a F skill you've wasted a large sum of LF. You can't afford to "spam skills" because you'll find yourself at zero life force with all of your foes perfectly healthy. You need to be aware of what evades and blocks the opponent has, you need to be aware of what cleanses they have used. Additionally Scourge has minimal sustain and mobility, if you misposition you die, if you rotate wrong you die, if you fail your jumping puzzle you die.

Also if we what to talk about classes that don't have to "adapt" we should look at d/p daredevil which is literally the optimal thief build for every matchup in the game.

this + condi chrono............I mean if you let scourge nuke then dont wonder you are all dead its like letting zerker staff ele free cast......if two pple focus him he is simply dead.........ranged classes can kill him without any problem.....good druids can still fight him......try shatter mesmer you can burst him down in one stun ;-)

[choovanski.5462]

@Aza.2105 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:People are probably annoyed based on how they are forced into passively playing a specific set-up just to counter some other builds that get to do whatever they want. It's a matter of one guy being able to press all of his buttons while someone else can't. No, it's not hard to counter a Scourge (debatable about what it takes to deal with a Spellbreaker), but the issue is that doing so is innately frustrating in how it forces a player to play in a certain way (or possibly just run because the build they chose can't win efficiently or at all).

That's it!! People talk about balance and how you have to do this and that. But scourge nor spellbreaker has to adapt to a certain playstyle to win against any other spec. They just spam skills.

rush>zerker stance>headbutt>arcing slice>rifle butt>gunflame>volley>gunflame

that’s scourge dead ez. & it’s just my regular opener with zerker stance popped in

That is too linear to be a realistic and practical gameplan. At any time the scourge can dodge your headbutt. Making your burst non existent.

welcome to playing berserker after unnecessary nerfs. it’s a risky game.

really wish you could still stow it with weapon swap, but ugh.

still, zerker stance has good adrenaline gain (27 out of 30) so you will hit 3 bars & be able to burst. you just lose time & potential for a cheeky 100b

[Zeghart.9841]

@Aza.2105 said:That's it!! People talk about balance and how you have to do this and that. But scourge nor spellbreaker has to adapt to a certain playstyle to win against any other spec. They just spam skills.

If you spam skills you still get your ass handed to you. Spamming Full Counter off cooldown is the best way to waste it. People aren't stupid and can count to 8.And you really need that extra block and damage to keep up.

Also Warriors have always been very weak to blinds, blocks, evades and kiting.Landing adrenaline bursts is extremely important to stay alive since they proc essential traits to survive, so you usually need to make sure they hit and anything that prevents them from doing so completely destroys the class. This isn't something new, Warriors have had to adapt and deal with it for years. Full Counter is supposed to be the skill that levels the playing field, so to speak, while making the class a bit more reliable.

[shadowpass.4236]

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:

@Exciton.8942 said:Because most meta PvP builds are built around contesting caps and focus on melee damage.

To counter scourge, you need long range dps, things like deadeye or longbow ranger. But these specs are very situational. It is very easy to counter them by bringing in support like scrapper and tempest. Or you can also just send daredevil and mesmers to harrass them.

So in the end, the counter to scourge is too niche to run and scourge can run freely on the field as a result.

there are some really hardy Soulbeast LB builds that wouldnt be hardcountered by daredevils or mesmers. right now in low plat im running glassbow with ease, but i know once I move up i'll probably have to run a Demolisher build.

If you go against any competent players, you will be the reason your team lost with that build.

lol. big words little man. very charged, yet presumptive.

im talking from experience... i know you have no idea who i am. maybe you know me as Ferox? been competing in spvp since forever in all of the tournaments you havnt probably even heard of. and im not talking about the recent ATs. Take what i say as advice not kitten talk.

i dont think it really matters who you are. you may think you have it all figured out, but the e-specs just released and there are a lot of combinations and builds even the most experienced players arent familiar with yet.

So if a Physics student went to the professor and said: "I dont think it really matters who you are, you may think you have Physics figured out, but the newest edition of the Physics textbook just came out and there is different combinations of formulas that even you, the professor, are not familiar with yet."

That doesn't make much sense does it? #purifytheforums

This is literally the most perfect example I've ever read. I agree 100% with everything masskillerxploit has said. You guys are honestly pretty silly arguing against him lol

[Crinn.7864]

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:is that a joke? the mechanics of scourge literally... by definition... counter reaper. The only difference between reaper and scourge is that reaper has to run into your sand shades otherwise you both have access to the same weapon skills/utilites.

Except reaper has a massive sustain advantage over scourge. Reaper doesn't bother trying to counter scourge, reaper just uses it's 21k EHP advantage to brute force the kill since the scourge can't kite reaper.

[Daharahj.1325]

I will join the group of sensible folks and step off pvp and wvw until the first batch of class changes arrive. Sometimes ANet really does look amateurish when it comes to class balance.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:is that a joke? the mechanics of scourge literally... by definition... counter reaper. The only difference between reaper and scourge is that reaper has to run into your sand shades otherwise you both have access to the same weapon skills/utilites.

Except reaper has a massive sustain advantage over scourge. Reaper doesn't bother trying to counter scourge, reaper just uses it's 21k EHP advantage to brute force the kill since the scourge can't kite reaper.

You'll have every condi on you with corrupted stab too, how would you brute force a Scourge down lol

[Flumek.9043]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:is that a joke? the mechanics of scourge literally... by definition... counter reaper. The only difference between reaper and scourge is that reaper has to run into your sand shades otherwise you both have access to the same weapon skills/utilites.

Except reaper has a massive sustain advantage over scourge. Reaper doesn't bother trying to counter scourge, reaper just uses it's 21k EHP advantage to brute force the kill since the scourge can't kite reaper.

You'll have every condi on you with corrupted stab too, how would you brute force a Scourge down lol

Like crin said, you just facetank through it.

You need at least 50% lf, pre activated Spectral armor and 2x cleanses when you get out like suffer + signet.Heolbrak runes value is deal of the day.

You basically both deal 30k dmg to each other, the last 10k dmg and winner is decided by transfer.If you get out clean you can win with just the transfer or do a 10k axe#2,If the condies stay you will melt from 15k down in 3s.

Its a scary duel

[Flumek.9043]

Still i was also dissapointed by where the meta is going.

I played some mender/magi support and marauder power damage scourge - and both were "functional".It flows decently , the problem lies in base necro traits and clunky weapons. a better blood magic or dagger mainhand, and we would have actual variety.

then i roled the total glass thing and its stupid, everything melts.I know all 1v2s were bad poeple trying out new bad builds, it just felt too easy.

[Noz.4650]

@Aza.2105 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:People are probably annoyed based on how they are forced into passively playing a specific set-up just to counter some other builds that get to do whatever they want. It's a matter of one guy being able to press all of his buttons while someone else can't. No, it's not hard to counter a Scourge (debatable about what it takes to deal with a Spellbreaker), but the issue is that doing so is innately frustrating in how it forces a player to play in a certain way (or possibly just run because the build they chose can't win efficiently or at all).

That's it!! People talk about balance and how you have to do this and that. But scourge nor spellbreaker has to adapt to a certain playstyle to win against any other spec. They just spam skills.

There's a huge difference between a warrior in gold and a top 100 warrior. Yes spellbreaker and scourge are very strong, but if you think there's no adaptation or thought process playing these specs you haven't played actual good players. Complexity and difficulty of a class/build is irrelevant at high level. At that point it comes down to very small optimizations and knowledge of obscure game mechanics, and by definition optimization is the opposite of spamming skills. This applies to every competitive game played at a high level.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

@Aza.2105 said:Anet needs to make points much bigger, I mean much bigger. They are too tiny. The biggest problem with the spellbreaker and scourge is that you have to fight them on a tiny circle. There isn't much you can do about that other than leaving the point entirely to kite. But that isn't helping you get the point, that is actually contrast.

Thats kinda the problem with everything almost everyone is aoe or cleaving already. Standing on the circle during max players on both sides is like a death sentance with or without scourge.. Bigger points like the graveyard on the forest map helps some but not much I still fight entirely off the point most of the time when its a teamfight. I think you must really mean much bigger.

@Daharahj.1325 said:I will join the group of sensible folks and step off pvp and wvw until the first batch of class changes arrive. Sometimes ANet really does look amateurish when it comes to class balance.

Look at the game on release has the game gotten better or continued to go in the same direction? This is the balance they intend. Everyone is supposed to be easily dieing here and there instead of being able to hold the node with a small amount of people saying "wants a fast game" to justify it. My win rate with the celestial builds I started using after my win ratio was already wrecked with other amulets went up towards 90% even solo que barely lost... now its back down to 50-55% or so due to having to run shit that just instant dies theres not much gameplay to it when things die in 2 hits or so even in 1v1 scenarios. You want a fast game to lower the strategy it takes to kill the opponent and only have to press two or three skills?

[Aza.2105]

@eksn.7264 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:People are probably annoyed based on how they are forced into passively playing a specific set-up just to counter some other builds that get to do whatever they want. It's a matter of one guy being able to press all of his buttons while someone else can't. No, it's not hard to counter a Scourge (debatable about what it takes to deal with a Spellbreaker), but the issue is that doing so is innately frustrating in how it forces a player to play in a certain way (or possibly just run because the build they chose can't win efficiently or at all).

That's it!! People talk about balance and how you have to do this and that. But scourge nor spellbreaker has to adapt to a certain playstyle to win against any other spec. They just spam skills.

There's a

huge

difference between a warrior in gold and a top 100 warrior. Yes spellbreaker and scourge are very strong, but if you think there's no adaptation or thought process playing these specs you haven't played actual good players. Complexity and difficulty of a class/build is irrelevant at high level. At that point it comes down to very small optimizations and knowledge of obscure game mechanics, and by definition optimization is the opposite of spamming skills. This applies to every competitive game played at a high level.

@R E F L H E X.8413 said:

Thats kinda the problem with everything almost everyone is aoe or cleaving already. Standing on the circle during max players on both sides is like a death sentance with or without scourge.. Bigger points like the graveyard on the forest map helps some but not much I still fight entirely off the point most of the time when its a teamfight. I think you must really mean much bigger.

Yep I mean really really large. In vanilla the points felt small but it didn't feel intimidating to stand on them to contest. Particularly if you got a build designed to do so. Post hots damage went through the roof. I even tested something just to see, I ran scrapper rune set, signet of judgement, hunters determination, high protection uptime, knights amulet, retributive armor and I still get two shot by melee damage. This means something just isn't right with defense. Looking at the games progression, the only thing that really has been added is just more damage. Defense has remained relatively unchanged.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

@R E F L H E X.8413 said:

Thats kinda the problem with everything almost everyone is aoe or cleaving already. Standing on the circle during max players on both sides is like a death sentance with or without scourge.. Bigger points like the graveyard on the forest map helps some but not much I still fight entirely off the point most of the time when its a teamfight. I think you must really mean much bigger.

Defense has remained relatively unchanged.

Celestial ammy/mercy runes/on crit heal sigils, the celestial ammy really helped somehow

I thought the game belonged in the trash before making celestial builds. Were pretty much back to this point here. I seen hopes of playing something resembling guildwars now were pretty much back to something that belongs in the trash but is the only game you can really play for pvp.

[Zenith.7301]

@Zeghart.9841 said:It's pretty much what's happening with Spellbreaker as well. People dive straight into Full Counter, get destroyed, and then complain about it.

If they bothered to avoid it or dodge it, they would find out that Spellbreaker has no burst damage aside from Full Counter and really can't do much when it's on CD.Just like they don't realize how incredibly squishy Scourge is, and how it's completely helpless against anything ranged.

But I guess it's to be expected, the specs are still new and since most people only play one class, they have no idea how other specs work and how they can counter them.Give it some time, and the match quality should hopefully get better as people wise up to them.

Warrior has mobility. Necro doesn't (you can kite). Don't even try to compare the two.

[Crinn.7864]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:is that a joke? the mechanics of scourge literally... by definition... counter reaper. The only difference between reaper and scourge is that reaper has to run into your sand shades otherwise you both have access to the same weapon skills/utilites.

Except reaper has a massive sustain advantage over scourge. Reaper doesn't bother trying to counter scourge, reaper just uses it's 21k EHP advantage to brute force the kill since the scourge can't kite reaper.

You'll have every condi on you with corrupted stab too, how would you brute force a Scourge down lol

I couldn't care less about my stab. What I do care about is that my reaper has better CC, better mobility, better sustain, and better condition transfers and management than the scourge does.

Also for the record Scourge's boonhate is from rips. The only corrupts are from weapon skills. (and Path of Corruption for curses builds, but curses scourge has no sustain at all) I don't really care if my stab gets turned into 2 stacks of torment, not when I can sit on the RS3 skill for 30% damage reduction and then flip it for CC.

[kKagari.6804]

@Crinn.7864 said:As a scourge player, the biggest mistake that I see enemy teams doing is that they are afraid to engage me. Allowing a scourge breathing room results in the exact same outcome that giving a glass staff ele breathing room does - your team gets murdered.

Scourge squishy, the best way to handle it is to simply tunnel it down. DH, Holosmith, Daredevil, and most warrior specs can easily just bull through scourge's melee hate and burn the scourge down before the scourge can nuke anything. And of course ranged classes, like LB ranger and Deadeye can just kill a scourge with relative ease.

Scourge is the necromancer equivalent of a glass staff ele, and you handle it the same way you handle a staff ele.

Now granted scourge + support tempest is a monster, but nobody plays support tempest in solo queue anymore so.

Hey. I do.

[kKagari.6804]

@masskillerxploit.2165 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:i play scourge cuz i find condi bomb fun, yeah is trollish. but i will tell the secret: the worst nightmare for scourge are reapers, when i see one i run.

is that a joke? the mechanics of scourge literally... by definition... counter reaper. The only difference between reaper and scourge is that reaper has to run into your sand shades otherwise you both have access to the same weapon skills/utilites.

Yeah, whenever I see reaper I'm like, YES! RESISTANCE!

[PierPiero.9142]

with a chronomancer or a mirage you can fight scourge. it is not easy but not impossible (easier with chrono with double moa ) . INstead to fight against a spellbreaker i prefer to use mirage ( with inspiration in )

[Kiritodatrth.1548]

Now as a scourge I think everyone here should ignore the counters described in this post... I judge very bad tips; and I think you should just keep doing whatever you are doing; just because you are doing great (hehehehehe)...

But honestly. for the ppl complaining about the point control... What should we say about DH? They had point control for 3 years and are still there... With all the blocks and blinds and knocks and traps AND MOBILITY!! (they can reset pretty easy)... Makes no sense for the ppl complaining of a glass cannon specification controlling a point...

Let's do the following, let's remove all mobility from DH and all the blocks then we can talk about scourge point control cause that's what a scourge is: can do a lot of damage if you play against wrong, but definitely not a forgiving as a DH... or your class cannot have something competing with them?

To fight a DH you have to dodge the right abilities, not different for scourge, not different for spellbreaker... My problem is the stupid team... I'm recording my games now and I see I lost 2 fights cause someone hit the war when he had full counter meantime I was avoiding hit the war (there is a big tell in the ability)... in other cases I saw my team attacking the ele before the scourge... and a lot of mistakes from my end as well... but anyhow....

Yesterday I was shot for 21K from a DE, I even heard the 'oneshot one kill' part but I was out of evades... I dont come here to cry about it... if he baited me to have this ability in the right time, good for him, better luck for me next time...

Scourge is better than reaper in 1 vs 1... well scourge is hard counter to everyone in 1 vs 1... But it melts under pressure... Since the burst is AOE you can even 1 vs2 in certain circumstances, but not with a communicative team... giving targets so long so forth...

[Velimere.7685]

@Kiritodatrth.1548 said:Yesterday I was shot for 21K from a DE, I even heard the 'oneshot one kill' part but I was out of evades...The worst is when you trigger a Deadeye's venom mine while chasing them around a pillar and then they just turn a 180 on you and mow you down with their fully-automatic mode before using their grappling hook to swoop away while leaving you in the downstate to think long and hard about your various life choices.

[miriforst.1290]

Sorry but seeing this i can't help myself.

Meanwhile a few years ago.

People are getting rocketed by turret engineers. Stop.

because they keep eating all the rockets. i really dont get it. it's an easy spec to destroy, it's a sitting duck. just stay at 900-1200, use LOS, and kill it. im losing a ton of games because my teammates keep feeding enemy turret engineers. they dont bring stability, stunbreaks, projectile blocks or reflects, they dont bring ranged weapons, they stack condi gear while not bursting the engineer itself with it. if enemy team has 2x engi and we have less or none, game is over. pretty frustrating, especially when people see it as "OP" and are spamming it. at least 3-4 turret engineers in every game.

the biggest annoyance by far though for me is that I literally have to play my glassbow ranger to melt these guys, otherwise people will just feed forever. and i really didnt wanna go back to the glassbow.

So going by history we will probably see shades that have 500hp and a removal of problematic traits right?

Since turrets are the boogeyman of balance i can atleast get some fun out of it like this. More than in game that is.

[Malediktus.9250]

@mistsim.2748 said:because they keep eating all the aoe condi bombs. i really dont get it. it's an easy spec to destroy, it's squishy AF. just stay at 900-1200, kite it, and kill it. im losing a ton of games because my teammates keep feeding enemy scourges. they dont bring condi cleanse, they dont kite, they over-commit. if enemy team has 2x scourge and we have less or none, game is over. pretty frustrating, especially when people see it as "OP" and are spamming it. at least 3-4 scourge in every game.

the biggest annoyance by far though for me is that I literally have to play my glassbow ranger to melt these guys, otherwise people will just feed forever. and i really didnt wanna go back to the glassbow.So you are saying all melee builds have no longer a place in pvp?