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[SUGGESTION] Give Weaver F5 skill that...


juno.1840

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This topic was originally titled "Give Weaver F5 Skill that switches in and out of Dual Attunement". Karl has mentioned in reddit that this was considered during development and abandoned because they did not want to embed Unravel into the core specialization: source

I left the original proposal below. I've also added additional proposals discussed in this topic at the end of this post.

ORIGINAL:The proposal is to drop the utility stance that does this and make it a core feature on F5.

  • If you currently like the utility skill that does this, then switching to F5 shouldn't be a problem because it's the same kitten thing.
  • If you currently like dual attunement switching, then F5 doesn't break that for you... simply don't press it.
  • If you like the weaver trait-line but hate dual-attunements, then swtich F5 to "on" and forget about it.
  • If you want even more complexity (sick kittens) then toggle F5 on and off to your heart's content.

Boom, new feature which adds more play styles and options for players on Weaver! We'd also get a new utility out of it because the current stance that does this would obviously be obsolete.

Personally, I fall into bullet #3 above -- like the weaver traits, hate the dual attunements.

REVISED:Variations on this idea discussed in the pages of this topic:

  • Have F5 switch main/off hand attunements
  • Have F5 be the dual skill, instead of taking slot 3
  • Have F5 be the Unravel Skill (same cooldown, ammo count, ammo recharge, duration, etc). In other words, put Unravel utility onto F5.
  • Have F5 be a smaller Weave Self. Make Unravel an Elite skill with more impact/effects than current Unravel Utility skill.
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maybe a bit of an explanation unravel is mostly only useful in wvw/pvp where you have skills that you need to get to fast for some situations. The bad part of this is that you need to use a very needed utility slot to actually get to skills that you already have. pve does not matter that much just learn to kite and stuff you will be fine also take earth elemental or something if needed.

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@Legendofzelda.1278 said:maybe a bit of an explanation unravel is mostly only useful in wvw/pvp where you have skills that you need to get to fast for some situations. The bad part of this is that you need to use a very needed utility slot to actually get to skills that you already have. pve does not matter that much just learn to kite and stuff you will be fine also take earth elemental or something if needed.

Yeah it's really bad even in pvp. The only thing you'll ever use it for is getting access to an offhand defensive skill right now. So probably focus. But why not just use arcane shield or one of our other defensive utilities instead, and get a real utility spell out of it? Unravel still has 25 seconds cooldown which is attrocious for a utility that does absolutely nothing besides making you lose your elite spec gimmick for a few seconds (which should have been the F5).

And of course if you use a real defensive utility instead of Unravel, you'll still have the defensive offhand utility you would have used with Unravel to use for the next incoming damage burst. There is absolutely no reason to ever use Unravel really. Probably the worst designed skill in GW2 overall. It's the new Smiter's Boon (PVP).

The very best they could do IMHO is make Unravel the F5 (like now without the ammo mechanic) and make a new utility stance that's about condition removal. Maybe something like convert a condition into a boon every second for 5 seconds? Would be awesome.

But that's probably not gonna happen :(

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Probably I'm going to get insulted lol :) but more time I play with weaver and more I think that is fine to not have an f5 for unravel... I don't even slot it anymore in my skill bar since I'm getting used to manage in a smart way my attunement's swap.I using in pvp the sage build (arcane water weaver) with sword focus... and while not have skills like air 4 or earth 4/5 ready when you want is a problem when you are with dagger or scepter main hand, with sword (if you are in trouble for example) you can swap to water, use twist of fate (is the right name for the breack stun?) wait the evade animation finish, dodge to proc heal and barrier, use water 2, swap to earth that in the while is close to ready and use earth 2 for a blast + evade. In this way not only you refull yourself and clean condies but also you are ready to pop primordial stance, swap fire and counter burst people while have ready focus earth's skill... it's insane how it can save yourself and recovery from virtually everything that hasn't killed you, while also set up yourself for counter burst.So I'm not saying I don't want an "unravel f5", that could be nice, I'm just saying that you have to get used to don't depend from offhand defensive skills and actually try to manage better your attunements swap and skills since, at least with sword, you have a lot of tools to manage panic situation.

Edit: obviously with a main hand scepter things are different, you don't have any evades nor things that can help you to get out from troubles. But I think scepter has bigger problems in pvp anyway

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Agreed, unravel is an absolute waste of utility skill and should not exist as one.

I understand Lucadiro's point but think that unravel as an F5 is much needed for those that are not using sword and its evades.

Hope they scratch Unravel in be balance patch and put an interesting skill in its place.

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@lucadiro.4519 said:Probably I'm going to get insulted lol :) but more time I play with weaver and more I think that is fine to not have an f5 for unravel... I don't even slot it anymore in my skill bar since I'm getting used to manage in a smart way my attunement's swap.

Yeah I would be fine with not having an F5, and weaver just being dual-attuning, period. My main gripe is that we have Unravel as a "utility skill" instead of an actual useful 4th stance. Pretty sure it's the first (and hopefully last) "utility" skill that doesn't even do anything besides removing something from your class.

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I have a different idea. Instead of pressing F5 to toggle between dual attunement an full attunement, how about not letting the attunement you just switched to, to go on cooldown, so you can press the attunement a second time to fully attune to it?In WvW having timely access to your off hand focus skills can be the difference between life and death, so I'm largely in favor of having unravel as a part of the core features for weaver.

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@apharma.3741 said:No, this is the point of weaver, you are all essentially asking to make the elite spec into the base class. Aether McLoud.1975 gets it and I agree with his sentiments that instead of a useful 4th stance we have training wheels...not like the other stances are that good anyway except twist of fate.

Well actually primordial stance is pretty good... the other 2 and the heal yes, are useless

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I used to think switching this to F5 a good idea before launch, but now I have had enough time to play wever and this is a very bad idea because of the level of burst you can get out of sword from two full attunements dual skills. I am mainly running power for my damage stat with no precision or ferocity and some celestial sprinkled in. I am running a disable build and when I break a Champions bar I am watching their health meltdown pretty decently when when I use the full attunement dual skills. This is not even counting stability and I am only running air 20% damage on disable with lightening rod. This is pretty much instant death for a player that is not skilled in PvP.

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@lucadiro.4519 said:

@apharma.3741 said:No, this is the point of weaver, you are all essentially asking to make the elite spec into the base class. Aether McLoud.1975 gets it and I agree with his sentiments that instead of a useful 4th stance we have training wheels...not like the other stances are that good anyway except twist of fate.

Well actually primordial stance is pretty good... the other 2 and the heal yes, are useless

I disagree. The heal is pretty strong when used right. Stone Resonance has saved my ass more times than I could count to get a heal off with stability. Twist of Fate is pretty powerful as it is a 1 second evade and a stun break which is pretty powerful. The Jury is still out on waveself. Did I mention that the 4 main stances have no casting times?

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Twist of fate is amazing I already said it!But the heal? You are forced to be in melee to gain benefit from it, and idk if in the end itHeal more than the signet or the glyph. In pvp I feel it just too risky.For stone resonance let's say that... even if the barrier that provide is nice I don't see it replace any of my utility skill in pve (can be icebow, glyph of storms, fire signet, primordial stance, blink) or even less in pvp where blink and Twist of fate have already a taken slot and the 3rd utility usually is primordial stance or arcane shield...

Maybe they are not totally useless, but for sure, at least for me, they are not worth to take a slot skill in my bar.

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It would be nice but i would like to see if the f5 was just a swap for the off hand atument. It start out in main hand atument swamping and the atument that was main hand before becomes off hand but once you hit f5 you now swap your off hand atument and the one that was off hand atument becomes the main hand atument. Put this on a say 10 sec cd or even less and still share the cd on atument swaps for weaver. This would be just a pure chose of witch way you want to swap and less of "giving up" being a weaver.

A chose of witch way your swaping is what the F5 should be your still a weaver its just you can chose what hand your swapping.

Example: If your main hand fire and off water but you want to get off hand earth. You hit this F5 and hit earth. Your main hand will become water and your off hand will become earth.

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@Enigmoid.1264 said:No, this is unnecessarily clunky. Just have attuning to an element the second time have a 1s cooldown, attuning to other elements have a 4s cooldown. I do not want more buttons to press.

If it's clunky then don't use it. Having F5 as I described doesn't impact anyone's play style if they choose not to use it.

@apharma.3741 said:No, this is the point of weaver, you are all essentially asking to make the elite spec into the base class. Aether McLoud.1975 gets it and I agree with his sentiments that instead of a useful 4th stance we have training wheels...not like the other stances are that good anyway except twist of fate.

The point of weaver is whatever each player wants it to be. Honestly how "elite" is an elite trait that doesn't let me use the original mechanic of the base class? As I said above, if you like dual-attune then having a toggle on F5 doesn't impact you in any way.

F5 is all about providing more play options without taking away any of the current play options.

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Been trying to get a use out of unravel (in pve, haven't tried weaver in pvp yet), and it's actually even worse than I thought - and I already thought it's the Smiter's Boon of GW2. That is has a 5 seconds duration is completely useless since you cannot possible get more than 1 attunement switch out of it because of the global cooldown. So you get one time access to your offhand skills of your current mainhand attunement upon use, and have the option to fully attune to another attunement once in the following ~4 seconds. And 25 seconds cooldown for that... at the very least it should reduce (or maybe even eliminate) the global cooldown for the time the stance is active. Like 1-2 seconds max, so you can at least switch 2 times with 1 use if you're quick.

Edit: If you don't know the term "smiter's booning", from the GW1 wiki:

"This skill is often considered to be the paramount example of a nerf and as such gave rise to the terms (Smiter's) Booning and 25/90 (referring to the new energy cost and recharge) each time a skill is rendered completely unusable after a game update."

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@Kewlman.5689 said:I have a different idea. Instead of pressing F5 to toggle between dual attunement an full attunement, how about not letting the attunement you just switched to, to go on cooldown, so you can press the attunement a second time to fully attune to it?In WvW having timely access to your off hand focus skills can be the difference between life and death, so I'm largely in favor of having unravel as a part of the core features for weaver.

I totally agree that, we should just only press the same attunement button twice to fully attuned, this is the easiest way for them to modifying, and the easiest way for us to manipulate weaver.

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@juno.1840 said:

@Enigmoid.1264 said:No, this is unnecessarily clunky. Just have attuning to an element the second time have a 1s cooldown, attuning to other elements have a 4s cooldown. I do not want more buttons to press.

If it's clunky then don't use it. Having F5 as I described doesn't impact anyone's play style if they choose not to use it.

@apharma.3741 said:No, this is the point of weaver, you are all essentially asking to make the elite spec into the base class. Aether McLoud.1975 gets it and I agree with his sentiments that instead of a useful 4th stance we have training wheels...not like the other stances are that good anyway except twist of fate.

The point of weaver is whatever each player wants it to be. Honestly how "elite" is an elite trait that doesn't let me use the original mechanic of the base class? As I said above, if you like dual-attune then having a toggle on F5 doesn't impact you in any way.

F5 is all about providing more play options without taking away any of the current play options.

No the point of weaver is as described by ArenaNet

“The benefit of the weaver’s ability to dual-wield elements is primarily their access to dual-attack skills, which combine both of the currently wielded elements in the third skill slot. As an example, the staff’s Pile Driver skill combines both air and earth to produce a violent effect similar to a rail gun.

Elementalists have traditionally been able to change elements at will with a cooldown on the ones they’ve recently attuned to. The weaver’s elements are all tied to the same cooldown, so activating one prevents an immediate swap to another until the cooldown is up. There are a few ways to modify this limit: taking the Arcane specialization line lowers the global recharge—as does using the elite skill Weave Self—while the utility skill Unravel temporarily removes dual attacks and grants access to single-element attunements.”

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/developer-diary-elite-specializations/

So please stop trying to revert weaver back to core ele by wanting to fully attune almost instantly or providing baseline ways to circumvent the point of the elite spec. If you don’t like the way weaver has it’s skill bar split don’t play it, if weaver isn’t effective in its role which isn’t very well described by ANet then that is a discussion point with ways to improve the class within the parameters outlined above.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@juno.1840 said:

@Enigmoid.1264 said:No, this is unnecessarily clunky. Just have attuning to an element the second time have a 1s cooldown, attuning to other elements have a 4s cooldown. I do not want more buttons to press.

If it's clunky then don't use it. Having F5 as I described doesn't impact anyone's play style if they choose not to use it.

@apharma.3741 said:No, this is the point of weaver, you are all essentially asking to make the elite spec into the base class. Aether McLoud.1975 gets it and I agree with his sentiments that instead of a useful 4th stance we have training wheels...not like the other stances are that good anyway except twist of fate.

The point of weaver is whatever each player wants it to be. Honestly how "elite" is an elite trait that doesn't let me use the original mechanic of the base class? As I said above, if you like dual-attune then having a toggle on F5 doesn't impact you in any way.

F5 is all about providing more play options without taking away any of the current play options.

No the point of weaver is as described by ArenaNet

“The benefit of the weaver’s ability to dual-wield elements is primarily their access to dual-attack skills, which combine both of the currently wielded elements in the third skill slot. As an example, the staff’s Pile Driver skill combines both air and earth to produce a violent effect similar to a rail gun.

Elementalists have traditionally been able to change elements at will with a cooldown on the ones they’ve recently attuned to. The weaver’s elements are all tied to the same cooldown, so activating one prevents an immediate swap to another until the cooldown is up. There are a few ways to modify this limit: taking the Arcane specialization line lowers the global recharge—as does using the elite skill Weave Self—while the utility skill Unravel temporarily removes dual attacks and grants access to single-element attunements.”

Source:

So please stop trying to revert weaver back to core ele by wanting to fully attune almost instantly or providing baseline ways to circumvent the point of the elite spec. If you don’t like the way weaver has it’s skill bar split don’t play it, if weaver isn’t effective in its role which isn’t very well described by ANet then that is a discussion point with ways to improve the class within the parameters outlined above.

The devs already provided the ability in the utility skill. You're the one who's saying it's wrong to play Weaver with a single attunement switching, not the devs. Do you also say its wrong for players to camp Fire when Ele is designed with 4 attunements. Because some Ele's campe fire, the devs don't pevent it even though that's not how ele was designed.

The devs have long stated that GW2 is about playing "your way". Asking for options allows more players to realize that goal. If it makes you feel better, instead of F5, change the utility to be a toggle. Then the ability comes with the cost of a utility slot, so some sacrifice is involved.

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I'm against it simply because Ele is considered high skill floor to be able to use efficiently.... Even more so with the Weaver spec, they really upped the ante and it's great!

I'm personally really enjoying the challenge of remembering specific attunement rotations and I'm starting to get it down pat, if this class is too hard for you to play then please play another class and stop trying to lower the skill floor for the rest of us.

( I don't even need that silly fully attuned utility either, a bit of timing and correct rotations makes that utility obsolete after the initial learning curve)

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