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Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]


Ovark.2514

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@jportell.2197 said:

Weaver definitely does a bit more damage than Spellbreaker with bruiser oriented specs, and it does a lot more damage than Spellbreaker with burst oriented specs.

But in no world would people rather a weaver On their team over a spellbreaker.

Because maybe its not just about the damage output?

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@steveraptor.9603 said:

Weaver definitely does a bit more damage than Spellbreaker with bruiser oriented specs, and it does a lot more damage than Spellbreaker with burst oriented specs.

But in no world would people rather a weaver On their team over a spellbreaker.

Because maybe its not just about the damage output?

Exactly. A warrior will land more damage And out sustain the weaver if both are running similar specs

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Hi Boyer, a couple of things.

It's hard to boil down PvP to just 4 categories.There is big difference between dps and burst. If you check the dps of condi mirage vs power mirage in the PvE special forces training area, you will find that condi mirage has waaaay more dps. Even pvp thief has more dps. I believe this is a major leading factor for your discrepancy between your experience playing pvp games and your scores (Another is point control. Even without a lot of defense, offensive AoE naturally leads to more point control, but I digress).

I have played power mes throughout HoT and PoF and one of the things that surprised me the most when I switched to condi mirage recently is that you can burst someone down with a well timed burst AND have skills to spare to provide more sustained pressure. You see, this goes hand in hand with the point control statement I maid earlier. Why? Because having more sustained damage forces your opponent to play at least partially defensively as well. This in turn is in many ways a defense. You see, if they are not dodging or applying a defensive skill, they could be applying an offensive skill instead. Meanwhile, after a burst, the power mirage has no adequate offensive skills to apply pressure. Therefore, they are relying almost solely on defensive skills/dodges for defense. This is why people screamed for nerfs to the defensive nature of condi mirage while power mirage had the same skills but wasn't deemed OP or taken for competitions.

Another problem for both condi and power mirage is condis. Without EM, mes does not have good condi removal outside the inspiration trait line. This of course isn't a problem at the moment since it is a more power based focused meta. However, as soon as there are more condi classes, both condi and power mirage will be marked down a notch since taking EM now is more detrimental than beneficial.

Long story short:

  1. Condi Mirage should not have as high of a combination of burst and sustain damage. Because of this, the devs will nerf defense which will then affect power mirage as well.
  2. Mes or mirage should have a reliable way of cleansing conditions (EM no longer counts) outside the inspiration trait line, even if it means nerfing something else.
  3. If confounding sugestions was nerfed because it didn't seem 'fair' to the person playing against the power mes (even on a long internal cooldown), then delete all stuns from the game so an opponent can't do it to you, for this really doesn't seem fair.
  4. Power mes needs increased sustained damage, and reliable sustained damage at that. Yes I am saying something on mes that needs a buff. Power mes has not been meta for almost 4 years now. It's not even like such a change would make it OP. If the devs don't want 100 to zeroing people to be a thing (which it in no way can do reliably in PvP) then power mes needs more sustained damage to even have a remote possibility. Yes, power and condi mirage are on two TOTALLY different sides of the spectrum on this issue. Thats why its not even possible to balance both of them through making defensive changes.
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I honestly couldn't be bothered to read past "...2nd..."Whatever respect I had for you got scrapped and tossed in the bin. The mere fact that you use one possible build to illustrate the problem and call for nerfs to the class in specific areas, without illustrating how those changes would affect different weapon sets or trait combinations, makes me think you didn't do your homework before you came here.Sigh! Oh well.

@kiritsugu emeya.3962 You're still my Go-To Ranger :wink:

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@OP, thank you for this post. I really don't have the guts to try out mesmer to find out how to defeat it, mainly because I don't want to discover how powerful I would feel using it. I quite like being the underdog and outplaying mesmers with my teammates. Guild Wars 2 PVP is a team-oriented game mode to begin with, even though people are insistent that it isn't. But, I digress.

I completely agree with all you have listed. I may not be in plat, but I've played a whole crap ton of games throughout the entirety of my GW2 career, carefully observed the metas of each season I was involved in, and took note of the mesmer changes over the course of each season. There has always been a viable build, or multiple viable builds, of mesmer for every season. Condi mirage is the only one that does not have a direct counter. You could say Deadeye or Pew-Pew Soulbeast, but they do not have the same ability to disengage and reset fights while playing defensively as Condi mirage can. There are just too many things at their disposal and THAT is something that no one can deny. Who cares about the nerfs? That doesn't deter from the fact that the nerfed mesmer builds are still viable in the current meta.

My point is that mesmer mains should not complain about the nerfs if their builds are still viable in the current meta. In the hands of someone who is just starting out, mesmer is an annoyance. In the hands of someone with a lot of skill, mesmer is invincible. Thank you so much for your post!

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@ChartFish.1308 said:So rare to see people actually play a class to truly see how it works instead of just screaming OP. It's easy to disregard someone who just complains on face value. It's hard to disregard someone who said they can wreck kitten on a class they've barely played.

You've got my respect for that. It was a good read.

While the sentiment may hold true in most aspects of life, I dont think it could be applied here....

Otherwise I might aswell kick ass on renegade then use it as justification for a nerf...

Also just asking again, but can someone share this OP build? I dont struggle against most condi mirage and I didnt feel like a god playing it last night... I have much easier wins on tempest and menders reaper than what I did playing condi mirage and I got 5 Mesmers and about 3k hours on the class

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@sephiroth.4217 said:

@ChartFish.1308 said:So rare to see people actually
play
a class to truly see how it works instead of just screaming OP. It's easy to disregard someone who just complains on face value. It's hard to disregard someone who said they can wreck kitten on a class they've barely played.

You've got my respect for that. It was a good read.

While the sentiment may hold true in most aspects of life, I dont think it could be applied here....

Otherwise I might aswell kick kitten on renegade then use it as justification for a nerf...

Also just asking again, but can someone share this OP build? I dont struggle against most condi mirage and I didnt feel like a god playing it last night... I have much easier wins on tempest and menders reaper than what I did playing condi mirage and I got 5 Mesmers and about 3k hours on the class

If I have to guess, the OP stumbled upon one of my test buiids, drew wrong conclusions and deemed it OP , due to lack of proper testing.

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@Arlette.9684 Nope, I was using suggested variant options from those Shorts videos.@malisivo.5264 Go try it out man, I swear this build plays itself outside of active thinking while using portal/blink/jaunt.@sephiroth.4217 Sounds like you're trying to play the Mirage LIKE a Reaper or a DH. Play defensively and make people run into your super rando damage.

@Xstein.2187 100% agree with everything you said. About boiling down conquest attributes to 4x categories, I felt the same when writing up that list but I wanted to keep the class analysis somewhat light instead of writing up a page's worth of detailed examination for each of them. Realistically with a proper full analysis, it would probably look something more like this:

  • Burst Grade & Attrition Grade (Damage Category)
  • Self Sustain 1v1 Grade & 1vX Grade (Sustain Category)
  • Rotation Speed Grade & Chasing Grade & Disengage Grade (Mobility Category)
  • Team Support/Utility Grade with a full explanation of exactly what it is bringing to the team (Support/Utility Category)
  • Ability To Hold Vs. Decap Grade (Cap Defense Category)
  • Ease Of Entry Grade & Skill Cap Grade - IE: DH ease of entry (S), skill cap (B+) - D/P Thief ease of entry ©, skill cap (S)

^ That would be a more detailed analysis but boy would it take some time to write up.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Arlette.9684 Nope, I was using suggested variant options from those Shorts videos.@malisivo.5264 Go try it out man, I swear this build plays itself outside of active thinking while using portal/blink/jaunt.@sephiroth.4217 Sounds like you're trying to play the Mirage LIKE a Reaper or a DH. Play defensively and make people run into your super rando damage.

@"Xstein.2187" 100% agree with everything you said. About boiling down conquest attributes to 4x categories, I felt the same when writing up that list but I wanted to keep the class analysis somewhat light instead of writing up a page's worth of detailed examination for each of them. Realistically with a proper full analysis, it would probably look something more like this:

  • Burst Grade & Attrition Grade (Damage Category)
  • Self Sustain 1v1 Grade & 1vX Grade (Sustain Category)
  • Rotation Speed Grade & Chasing Grade & Disengage Grade (Mobility Category)
  • Team Support/Utility Grade with a full explanation of exactly what it is bringing to the team (Support/Utility Category)
  • Ability To Hold Vs. Decap Grade (Cap Defense Category)
  • Ease Of Entry Grade & Skill Cap Grade - IE: DH ease of entry (S), skill cap (B+) - D/P Thief ease of entry ©, skill cap (S)

^ That would be a more detailed analysis but boy would it take some time to write up.

Nah that wasnt it... I had S/D thieves up me just about every game, if it wasnt that then it was the power mirage, or the soulbeast or the scourge that would send all my stacks of confusion back on me... I could cheese a kill here and there on players not packing a tonne of condi removals too but wasnt much I could do against mid comp with a FB, wasnt much I could do against rsistance spamming spellbreakers either.

So again, if you wouldnt mind linking this OP build please? If you cant thats fine too, I just thought there was a foundation to base these claims on otherwise its nothing more than "X beat me so nerf X" thread.

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@"sephiroth.4217" Not once did I say anything about nerfing Mirage. In fact, not a single user who has posted in this thread has said anything at all about nerfing Mirage. I simply stated that after playing each class, I felt that Condi Mirage was still dominant in conquest. Being defensive about class nerfs in a thread like this sort of makes you look like some guilty culprit of a crime who is paranoid of people figuring out what he did, just saying.

Also, I was just running the standard listed meta with a couple suggested tweaks "like sigil changes" and I also still opted to use Elusive Mind, which seemed to work fine for me. I normally main a Berserker Soulbeast spec that must be played super cautiously anyway, so I didn't have too many problems avoiding over use of Elusive Mind.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"sephiroth.4217" Not once did I say anything about nerfing Mirage. In fact, not a single user who has posted in this thread has said anything at all about nerfing Mirage. I simply stated that after playing each class, I felt that Condi Mirage was still dominant in conquest. Being defensive about class nerfs in a thread like this sort of makes you look like some guilty culprit of a crime who is paranoid of people figuring out what he did, just saying.

Also, I was just running the standard listed meta with a couple suggested tweaks "like sigil changes" and I also still opted to use Elusive Mind, which seemed to work fine for me. I normally main a Berserker Soulbeast spec that must be played super cautiously anyway, so I didn't have too many problems avoiding over use of Elusive Mind.

No one is being defensive except for you, im just asking for the OP build.

I didnt say you did, im implying that your claims have little substance at the moment and that you are just venting steam because again you failed to link the build and again you have side stepped the question, which is very unlike you.

Thank you for finally referencing a build but unfortunately that was the build I was using... I was really hoping there was an OP build there.

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@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@sephiroth.4217 Not once did I say anything about nerfing Mirage. In fact, not a single user who has posted in this thread has said anything at all about nerfing Mirage. I simply stated that after playing each class, I felt that Condi Mirage was still dominant in conquest. Being defensive about class nerfs in a thread like this sort of makes you look like some guilty culprit of a crime who is paranoid of people figuring out what he did, just saying.

Also, I was just running the standard listed meta with a couple suggested tweaks "like sigil changes" and I also still opted to use Elusive Mind, which seemed to work fine for me. I normally main a Berserker Soulbeast spec that must be played super cautiously anyway, so I didn't have too many problems avoiding over use of Elusive Mind.

No one is being defensive except for you, im just asking for the OP build.

I didnt say you did, im implying that your claims have little substance at the moment and that you are just venting steam because again you failed to link the build and again you have side stepped the question, which is very unlike you.

Thank you for finally referencing a build but unfortunately that was the build I was using... I was really hoping there was an OP build there.

lol

  1. Please quote where I have been defensive outside of quoting and pointing out misconceptions & embellishments or plain misinformation in other users responses. That isn't being defensive, that's just clearing things up.
  2. If you can't figure out the meta Condi Mirage build I'm not going to direct you towards it.
  3. Side stepped what question lol? What is the Condi Mirage build? Oh my god dude. Try a bit, succeed a bit. That's my advice to you.
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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@sephiroth.4217 Not once did I say anything about nerfing Mirage. In fact, not a single user who has posted in this thread has said anything at all about nerfing Mirage. I simply stated that after playing each class, I felt that Condi Mirage was still dominant in conquest. Being defensive about class nerfs in a thread like this sort of makes you look like some guilty culprit of a crime who is paranoid of people figuring out what he did, just saying.

Also, I was just running the standard listed meta with a couple suggested tweaks "like sigil changes" and I also still opted to use Elusive Mind, which seemed to work fine for me. I normally main a Berserker Soulbeast spec that must be played super cautiously anyway, so I didn't have too many problems avoiding over use of Elusive Mind.

No one is being defensive except for you, im just asking for the OP build.

I didnt say you did, im implying that your claims have little substance at the moment and that you are just venting steam because again you failed to link the build and again you have side stepped the question, which is very unlike you.

Thank you for finally referencing a build but unfortunately that was the build I was using... I was really hoping there was an OP build there.

lol
  1. Please quote where I have been defensive outside of quoting and pointing out misconceptions & embellishments or plain misinformation in other users responses. That isn't being defensive, that's just clearing things up.
  2. If you can't figure out the meta Condi Mirage build I'm not going to direct you towards it.
  3. Side stepped what question lol? What is the Condi Mirage build? Oh my god dude. Try a bit, succeed a bit. That's my advice to you.
  1. Youre being defensive in every post, all I asked for was the build and instead of answering the question you proceed to tell me not play like a DH, saying rubbish about paranoid stuff or what ever that little spiteful rant was about and again with this post, especially point 3.

  2. I was using the meta build and its not as OP as you claim so naturally I expected you to have an OP build to link, of which you didnt.

  3. Do you have a link to the build, that was the question and the same question now for 5 posts or so, to quote the wise."Oh my god dude. Try a bit, succeed a bit. That's my advice to you." .... thats in reference to your reading skills.

All that I needed to know has been revealed, this is nothing more than a hot air thread made by someone who was agitated.. your actions and repeated failure to answer the question in a reasonable manner has led me to this conclusion. Your spiteful posts and your attitude puts a nail on the head to this outcome.

Youre more than welcome to post the build but if its really just the META build then unfortunately that wasnt what I was searching for as most people I face have enough game knowledge on how to handle said build therefor making it a less desirable build that doesnt live up the godliness you are describing.

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yeah nerf mesmer.. so OP.but DE hitting for 12k then stealthing, moving around and blasting you again is perfectly balanced. you ever play mesmer where the opposite team has 2 DE and a ranger, or 2 ranger and one DE and you see the spawn point more than the map. No, you cant always los, get real. if you cant stand on point to cap because of pew pew then you lose.

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I dunno. I smell over exaggerated claims from the OP.

I've been playing mirage power and condi exlusively for the last 4 seasons. Got the top 250 leaderboard title last season using power. So obviously im not pro but good enough to know my stuff with mirage.

Your talking about how u were able to 2v1 and 3v1 and beat any 1v1 match up by randonly spamming stuff as a condi mirage. And all of this success after playing for what, one afternoon practicing for the first time in golems? Then you must be playing low gold/silver players.

There's no way you can just randomly spam and beat people that know how to play. Mirage being a mindless spammy class that anyone can top 250 with is such an exaggerated claim especially present day after receiving nerf after nerf.

I don't buy it.

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