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PSA: You can evade full counter


Master Ketsu.4569

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Full counter is very easily countered by skills that let you evade and attack at the same time. This will proc FC but you won't take damage or anything.

For instance, say you are a Revenant and fighting a spellbreaker. You successfully baited his evade and you know FC is up. Hit him with Staff 5, FC will activate but you won't get hit. Now it's not a problem. You can do the same thing on almost every other class. Or you can just outrange it. FC even has a delay on it so if you time it right with certain small-animation skills you can even attack then queue an evade and full counter won't hit you. In fact, if your ping is anything less than 50 you basically have no excuse to be getting hit with full counter ever.

The thing is, GW2 is an online game. Meaning there is lag. However GW2 allows you to client side queue actions. So you can actually pop FC by doing a quick skill ( like dagger 1 ) and instantly queuing your evade key. The server thinks you are evading before your skill even procs. Result: FC pops, you don't get hit. Every class can do this.

Or say you are a DH and you want to spam symbols like no tommorow because aoe spam is what DH does best. You see the warrior readying FC and walking into your spam. Press evade, receive bacon.

After realizing this glaring weakness I'm having zero trouble fighting spellbreaker on any other class. Spellbreaker might ironically end up being seen as underpowered instead of "omg broken" like some people here believe.

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@Erzian.5218 said:Mind posting a video of you beating a good spellbreaker (aka someone who is known to be a good warrior) on ranger/mesmer? I am excited to see how it is as I haven't managed to do so over the course of several hours and I also don't know of anyone who has successfully done it.

its because they are bad players, they couldn't pull it off.

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@Thunderbird.4298 said:

@Erzian.5218 said:Mind posting a video of you beating a good spellbreaker (aka someone who is known to be a good warrior) on ranger/mesmer? I am excited to see how it is as I haven't managed to do so over the course of several hours and I also don't know of anyone who has successfully done it.

its because they are bad players, they couldn't pull it off.

It's more like people just haven't noticed it yet.

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@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@Thunderbird.4298 said:

@Erzian.5218 said:Mind posting a video of you beating a good spellbreaker (aka someone who is known to be a good warrior) on ranger/mesmer? I am excited to see how it is as I haven't managed to do so over the course of several hours and I also don't know of anyone who has successfully done it.

its because they are bad players, they couldn't pull it off.

It's more like people just haven't noticed it yet.

Well you have nothing backing that statement up. Post a video of you beating a good warrior.

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@Thunderbird.4298 said:

@Thunderbird.4298 said:

@Erzian.5218 said:Mind posting a video of you beating a good spellbreaker (aka someone who is known to be a good warrior) on ranger/mesmer? I am excited to see how it is as I haven't managed to do so over the course of several hours and I also don't know of anyone who has successfully done it.

its because they are bad players, they couldn't pull it off.

It's more like people just haven't noticed it yet.

Well you have nothing backing that statement up. Post a video of you beating a good warrior.

I literally just told you how to proc it without getting hit.

Go into the game and spend legit 5 seconds attacking an FC with dagger 1 any class and queue evade while you are doing it.

This isn't something you need a video to understand. Stop being lazy.

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So what if you can evade it? If you die to full counter 1v1 well then too bad. However, I managed to pull off a few fights as radiant hammer and even when I didn't pop that skill, warrior/spellb has many other tools to work around with. Even though I tried my best to avoid all big hitters, practially every hit that warrior does is strong as nails. If you don't have mobility or conditions or both, a spellb will outsustain you or chase you down. It's not entirely a l2p but rather buildwars2 issue. Just go with something that counters a spellbreaker and be done with it. Or do something better, don't play by their rules. Don't let them have a 1v1 or don't let them juke 1v2/3 around a point on Niflhel and it will all be good. They are dang strong, if you fight them on their turf, you won't achieve much.

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Alright, let's give op the benefit of the doubt. Yes, you can evade fullcounter. You can also interrupt it, either with a cc skill proccing sigil of revocation or a carefully placed cc during the fullcounter cast. However, that is not why higher level players are asking for better alignment of the skill. There is so many aspects to this assessment, most of you don't even understand or ever think about. I will try to cover the most obvious ones.

Let us first look at fullcounter as a skill, it absorbs the next attack on activation for 1 1/2 seconds, giving you one stack of stability, evasion, 100% damage reduction for the duration and the possibility of the fullcounter followup, which by default is unblockable, dazes and removes 1 boon. This skill has an 8 second cooldown. The current warrior build runs cdr on Burst-Skills, which reduces this to 7 seconds. Furthermore, warriors also trait into fullcounter, meaning you also get protection on a procced fullcounter, apply cripple and slow with the fullcounter and get resistance, copy 5 conditions to 5 enemies and increase its damage. All of this, for a skill of 8 seconds base cooldown. So now there are 3 scenarios you can aim for: do not hit the fullcounter, hit and dodge the fullcounter and attempt to daze the fullcounter (lets not discuss the option of facetanking it) So assume you do dodge every fullcounter in your duel as seems to be the purpose of this thread. Every 7 seconds and for the duration of the duel, you have a dodge at hand and dodge in time. EVEN in that scenario, the warrior will still get 3 seconds of protection, 2 seconds of resistance, 2 seconds of stability and an absorbed attack (i.e. reduced pressure). Even without the counter attack, that is ONE HELL of a skill.

I could now go on, covering the rest of the kit of warrior (passive pulsing stability and resistance, the whole boon removal priority table with stuns, the fact that near permanent resistance is the best thing on a signet that is usually countered by poison) other potential strategies to use and why they are futal. The gyst of the problem which should be easy to understand is, it plays similar to how chrono shield 4 was played in duels, only it has no real counterplay to it because you barely punish the warrior for missing his fullcounter.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for more interactive mechanics that offer counterplay to both sides. However, as it is right now, fullcounter does not

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It sounds like you've been destroyed by a bunch of DH's and Guardians in the past since you consider them to be the main offender of what we call the "Spam meta". This is when in reality DH's has been forced to cancel cast more than any other class due to the ridicolous about of projectile hate aswell as the 50% CD nerf on Trueshot a few months back.Symbols are a core part of our kit and sometimes even part of the auto-attack chain (Hammer). This means, you're asking Guardians to cancel their third and strongest auto chain in order for us to not pop a 7 second cooldown skill.Further more, Guardians (Core) has no access to Vigor. This means we simply dont have enough dodges to dodge every Full Counter, even if that's the only skill we would need to dodge. This is not counting Break Enchantments, Breaching Strike, Rush etc.There is also no concievable way a core guardian will ever be able to kite a Spellbreaker either, considering resistance uptime, double leap on dagger, Whirlwind Attack and Rush.This is just from a Guardians perspective as it's the class I managed top get to top 40(?) running core hammer before PoF, now I'm struggling to stay above 1700.I'm curious, if you don't mind to share your rating with us @Master Ketsu.4569 since I can't find you on either EU or NA.

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Loop you would win me everyday in GW2, but I play pvp MMO maybe before you were born... I was one of the first UO players and PVP tourney winner... I play MMOs since 96... GW2 was very forgiving about counters and brainless games...

You cannot punish a class cause you can't use your burst... that's the hole idea of PVP... COUNTER PLAY

and lets agree guardian as a class is ridiculus, and yes it's spamming... cause its as forgiven as a mother to mistakes and makes tons of damage...Any other decent PVP has ability that punishes brainless games and ability spam...

I also have to cancel my abilities and lose burst to avoid give war their burst that's smart pvp... Welcome to new age... Very well done ANET, hope it's not nerfed! And I sure hope so to see more abilities like this one

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@Loop.8106 said:DH's has been forced to cancel cast more than any other class

The fact that you think this despite being top 50 in the past is just further proof that DH requires no skill to play.

I haven't played enough this season so you won't find me, but I generally go between plat and gold. I usually don't care for playing GW2 due to the over emphasis on rote memorization mattering more than reactive skill.

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@Loop.8106 said:

As for guardian being ridiculous. It's pretty curious it has never been used in a high-tier tournament nor seen basicly any play in the recent AT's / mAT's. That's almost disproving your "fact" that Guardian is indeed a "ridiculous" class that skill spams.

You're confusing two different concepts. A class being OP is not the same thing as a class being easy. Something could be the worst build in the game and still be easy.

People don't dislike DH because of its strength. People are just annoyed by how any rabid monkey can play it, and then pretend it makes them good once they break plat. F.O.O. strategies are bad for multiplayer ranked games.

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Not an attempt to attack you in any terms on the contrary I was showing my respect, I have played against you and I know you are a good player... I was presenting an argument in favor of mechanics like full counter, and I think it should be expanded to other classes as well...

My argument is based n 2 propositions:
if you played others MMOs you know that counter play makes PVP much more fun.Second cause will punish hammer keyboard classes that dominate the game.

Regarding guardian, nerfs of not nerfs, It is a class that is very forgiving... Due to forgiveness making part of the class mechanics it's not gonna be nerfs that will change that, or you completely kill the class making it unusable... I see no medium term there (would be like nerfing scourge burst)... The class needs something to work, and guards need a lot of condi clean, heals, blind, knocks and mobility... However this mechanics created a class so easy to play and so forgiving that for me it's one of the main reasons PVP is the crap it is... imo...Talking about nerfs in classes: my class wins by far :P and War in second place, but nerfs never helped to fix any game...

Guardians are not used in torneys cause other classes perform better to do a specific job... not because it's a failure class overall... If you want to solo q there is no better class than guards, that counter arg your 'tourney missing guards'--- And most guardians just play following combos... and as a guard you know that... what creates a ridiculous atmosphere for the game. first cause it is Brainless (not only guardians, my class now looks the same and I don't like it)... then cause injuries experience ipo of keyboard hammering...

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@Pvt Frosty.6973 said:Alright, let's give op the benefit of the doubt. Yes, you can evade fullcounter. You can also interrupt it, either with a cc skill proccing sigil of revocation or a carefully placed cc during the fullcounter cast. However, that is not why higher level players are asking for better alignment of the skill. There is so many aspects to this assessment, most of you don't even understand or ever think about. I will try to cover the most obvious ones.

Let us first look at fullcounter as a skill, it absorbs the next attack on activation for 1 1/2 seconds, giving you one stack of stability, evasion, 100% damage reduction for the duration and the possibility of the fullcounter followup, which by default is unblockable, dazes and removes 1 boon. This skill has an 8 second cooldown. The current warrior build runs cdr on Burst-Skills, which reduces this to 7 seconds. Furthermore, warriors also trait into fullcounter, meaning you also get protection on a procced fullcounter, apply cripple and slow with the fullcounter and get resistance, copy 5 conditions to 5 enemies and increase its damage. All of this, for a skill of 8 seconds base cooldown. So now there are 3 scenarios you can aim for: do not hit the fullcounter, hit and dodge the fullcounter and attempt to daze the fullcounter (lets not discuss the option of facetanking it) So assume you do dodge every fullcounter in your duel as seems to be the purpose of this thread. Every 7 seconds and for the duration of the duel, you have a dodge at hand and dodge in time. EVEN in that scenario, the warrior will still get 3 seconds of protection, 2 seconds of resistance, 2 seconds of stability and an absorbed attack (i.e. reduced pressure). Even without the counter attack, that is ONE kitten of a skill.

I could now go on, covering the rest of the kit of warrior (passive pulsing stability and resistance, the whole boon removal priority table with stuns, the fact that near permanent resistance is the best thing on a signet that is usually countered by poison) other potential strategies to use and why they are futal. The gyst of the problem which should be easy to understand is, it plays similar to how chrono shield 4 was played in duels, only it has no real counterplay to it because you barely punish the warrior for missing his fullcounter.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for more interactive mechanics that offer counterplay to both sides. However, as it is right now, fullcounter does not

Finally a post making some actual points, thanks Frosty.

Yes, there's no denying that Full Counter is a VERY loaded skill. However I also believe it kinda needs to be. It has to give Warriors an answer to the blind/block/evade access that most classes have at the moment, which has been a huge thorn in the side of the whole class due to the importance of landing bursts. It also needs to give it some answer to the plentiful condis (which seems to be even worse with the xpac) as Warrior has pretty limited access to reliable condi clear and basically exclusively relies on resistance. Not only that but it also needs to be a decent contributor to the damage Spellbreaker can dish out, as the spec loses t2-t3 bursts for it, while being able to hit at least fairly reliably since it's still a burst that needs to activate fundamental traits.

Basically Anet has tried to fix all the glaring problems of the Warrior with a single skill.

However, the cons of a loaded skill is that once that's expended, you're much worse for wear.A spellbreaker with FC on cooldown is basically just a worse version of a Core Warrior. That's not to say it's helpless of course, but there is a big emphasis on not wasting that FC to block a crappy clone autoattack and making sure it actually lands. If that fails, you've just wasted your block AND your best burst in one go.

Now, I could see the CD being increased slightly (maybe 9-10s traited) and the boons being applied only on a successful hit, so to not reward the Spellbreaker for still missing FC. Maybe also make FC continually block ground AoEs instead of proccing from them, to make it less braindead to pop in teamfights, like it was suggested in another thread.

However pretty much everything else, from the unblockable damage to the half second daze (which has synergy with traits) to the counter condi capability is pretty paramount to the spec and has to be there. Nerf those or remove them, and the whole spec stops working and failing in what it was made to do.

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@roamzero.9486 said:A lot of the effects of full counter should only trigger if it connects instead of simply by causing it to activate IMO.

This is the most sensible nerf it could use, if it needs a nerf.

People keep suggesting nerfs that only make sense for one class, such as removing unblockable which is totally silly since most of the time a person spamming at you through FC isn't going to be blocking -except for aegis from Guardian.

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