Roamers skill level

[EremiteAngel.9765]

I feel like the skill level of roamers have dropped since POF...If I could use the PvP tiers to describe, pre-POF roamers I meet were largely gold tier, with a few plats and a rare legendary.Post-POF, roamers I meet were largely Bronze-Silver tier, with a few gold and a rare plat.Where have all the skilled roamers gone?

[Dawdler.8521]

... maybe your server has dropped in tier instead, lol?

Cant really say I've seen much difference the last years. Most servers only have a handfull of good roamers and a gank guild or two.At worst I think it has become harder to pick out good roamers over simply bringing the best meta. We've become better at picking out builds over players.

[Hitman.5829]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Where have all the skilled roamers gone?

I don't know about the others, but I am still in Black Gate chasing groups of 10+ and killing the ones that fall behind.

[Shroud.2307]

In my vast time spent in the Mists, I've long ago created a list of types of players/roamers.

DeadlyHighly mechanically and strategically adept. Likely a competitive PvP player, possibly with experience in a variety of other competitive games. Can put forth minimal effort to succeed in outnumbered fights even against above average players. Know their main profession inside and out, upside and down.Very uncommon.

DangerousMechanically and strategically talented but often over confident. Extremely difficult to pin down even on classes with lower mobility and defensive options. Can succeed in outnumbered fights with relative ease but have a tendency to over commit.Uncommon. Typically solo roamers.

Above averageMechanically skilled and a threat in 1v1 with potential to win outnumbered fights. Know their limits but have difficulty choosing proper targets to pressure in outnumbered fights.Common. Usually group roamers, frequently guilds.

AverageSomewhat mechanically skilled but easily panic. Capable of proper rotations and playing their class but unlikely to win outnumbered fights or 1v1's when not playing a roaming build. Typically a zergling, casual or relatively new to the game.Common player.

Below averageNot mechanically or strategically skilled. Spam skills at random, often charge in to fights they have no chance at winning, commonly using multiple Signets.Common player.

FreshNew, physically disabled, may be a friend playing the account. Many possibilities but typically just a new player learning the game. Some are keyboard turners, others appear to have a handle on walking and dodging but die about as easily as an NPC. Better to just /wave and let them carry on with their adventure assuming they don't attack you first!Common player.

From average to fresh are what I mostly see. Hasn't changed much since I started playing in my opinion. It just becomes more and more uncommon to find dedicated solo roamers, or even small group (2 - 4) as time goes on.

I do agree about the rarity of highly skilled players however. I used to see "Deadly" type roamers at least every so often but, now it's almost never. Can only think of a small handful that would fit in to that category.

[bq pd.2148]

i think with every new expension the build you run matters more than your player skill for 1 vs 1 encounters as the game is not balanced around 1 vs 1, this makes it harder to tell apart a mediocore roamer from a good one. with pretty much any halfway viable roaming build you will find people telling you that your running a low skill OP build.what i have seen more and more since PoF is people swapping profession after you kill them instead of trying to adapt with the one they picked before, looking for better envoirement etc. its just easier to swap to a profession they think counters their opponent.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Hitman.5829 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Where have all the skilled roamers gone?

I don't know about the others, but I am still in Black Gate chasing groups of 10+ and killing the ones that fall behind.

He said skilled.. :tongue:

[HazyDaisy.4107]

They left or they're playing their low level alt accounts primarily instead of their main gold/plat/diamond accounts.

A lot of people associate skill with rank and as such when faced with a roaming gold/plat/diamond they'll either run or call in extra buddies to chase this one guy.

Hardly anyone goes toe to toe with this player alone, so roaming on a "skilled" account isn't always as much fun as its made out to be, theres no glory in a wipe to a zerg and often no glory in the victories you do see.

But roaming on a "non-skilled" account presents a different scenario that gives you an opportunity to re-appreciate everything, from gaining a rank or an achievement, fighting a scrubby opponent or even acting like a scrub yourself.

Not to say everyone is an alt, but I'd wager a good bit are, because free accounts exist, because achievements dry up, because there''s not much incentive for new people to join and because there are vets that still want to play but aren't having fun doing so on their old accounts.

[Elementalist Owner.7802]

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:I feel like the skill level of roamers have dropped since POF...If I could use the PvP tiers to describe, pre-POF roamers I meet were largely gold tier, with a few plats and a rare legendary.Post-POF, roamers I meet were largely Bronze-Silver tier, with a few gold and a rare plat.Where have all the skilled roamers gone?

We all stopped playing because of deadeye one-shot garbage

(not my video but illustrates the point well enough)

[Israel.7056]

Probably playing other games gw2 wvw isn't great for roaming playstyle

[zinkz.7045]

The skill level of the entire playerbase has dropped.

I mean really look at PvP most of the actual PvP players left the game before even HoT came out, half the people in platinum would be gold or worse if you had seasons pre-HoT, same with guilds/GvG, same with roaming. (even look at blobs)

Good players (for the most part) have either left completely or play a fraction of what they once did.

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

The talk about builds I believe is true to an extent, by about 2015 lots of changes started to happen, traits, runes, elite specializations, and LOTS of new stat combos. While all of these things helped make many more builds possible for every class, it also made certain builds stand out above the rest for every class as well, making those more prominently "meta". The meta builds usually tended to lean heavily towards roaming or zerging, with hardly anything striking a balance between the two, and as many new players use metabattle, they would choose one or the other, with the vast majority of them choosing zerging, being the more rewarding choice. So fewer roamers for roamers to fight, and more zergs...that roamers will try and pick at. These groups of players seem to have further drifted apart as the years go by, and typically dislike each other thinking the other's idea of fun is dishonorable or stupid.

I'm still waiting for a reorganization of WvW where winning matters more at least, and a server actually needs the support of zergs, groups, and roamers to win. I would love to see an alliance recruiting for these types of roles....instead of just timezone coverage.

[reddie.5861]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I feel like the skill level of roamers have dropped since POF...If I could use the PvP tiers to describe, pre-POF roamers I meet were largely gold tier, with a few plats and a rare legendary.Post-POF, roamers I meet were largely Bronze-Silver tier, with a few gold and a rare plat.Where have all the skilled roamers gone?

dont understand what rank has to do with how skilled one could possibly be?i mean i should have joined the lootstick guardian back in the days, but i didnt like it i never took tons of ranks top of that i was in last tier server when we where talking about blob it was ~10/15 man group from either blacktide or underworld :D

these ranks mean shit, but roaming is pretty crap nowadays.u face either perma stealth deadeye (which isnt the problem for me my problem is always gotta wait for his mistake i cant out play a good de) or some other retarded 1 hit build.

i mean everything has been done to much.to much condi flying around in matter of seconds to much dmg can be done by ANY class in a flash of second etc.for me gw2 roaming is over its just to much retarded builds out there doing way to much dmg, or poo a way to many condi dmg to fast while being tanky as fuck.i have roamed pretty much forever till the end of HoT update and i give up there.

if u remove animations and just make some stickman figures, u cant even tell the difference between ele/mesmer/thief/warrior/ranger in dmg all these classes do same sick dmg in same rapid way. while back in the day in my eyes ele had sick dmg but in a zerg warrior was good at everything but not best at anything ranger had its dmg but didnt auto attack for sick dmg thief did massive backstabs but died in a flash.

nowadays they can all survive like no other they all poo dmg like no tomorrow and go on.i mean even guardian can wreck hard nowhammer guard insta downs metraps from dh hit like a truck then get struck in face by some hard hitting bow skills.firebrand can just burn living shit out of you.

tbh u either like it or u dont but for me gw2 is way off from what it used to be, and i liked the old gw2 alot more then what its now.none less i still play but i just went to play with blobs casually.

[ArchonWing.9480]

The grand bulk of class and skill design did not take open world pvp into consideration and thus this is not a game mode to promotes skill as they are just taken from pve in a haphazard fashion. And this is in already game that doesn't promote skill for the most part rather just blobbing over a spot, thus passive autoplay gaming is the norm.

Basically people have probably found something better to do and many others don't play in a competitive fashion because there is really no reason to.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

All i meet are bronze/silver condi or power shatter mirage or the random deadeye.But yeah, hardly they ever roam alone.

[Simonoly.4352]

Whilst skilled roamers are far rarer these days, I still see a healthy amount in most of my matchups on EU. I come across all classes represented too - even good Scourge's confidently solo roaming and giving me a run for my money.

However, I really don't die very often anymore, even on my less than optimal weird interrupt Mirage build. Biggest threat is just one-shot Malicious Backstab Deadeyes but they're super rare compared to rifle Deadeyes that struggle against the reflects in my build. Maybe my stealthless, non-shatter Mirage (yes it works) is actually horribly OP or something...I don't know. I honestly just feel like I know my chosen main class well enough to adapt to any scenario.

I do think a lot of the people that were dedicated to the roaming scene were scared off when the specialisation update came in back in 2015 and damage shot through the roof (even worse with HoT) and it became incredibly easy for even the laziest of players to "accidentally" kill a skilled roamer. In fact I know of many skilled roaming guilds that moved on around this time.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:All i meet are bronze/silver condi or power shatter mirage or the random deadeye.But yeah, hardly they ever roam alone.You dont meet any zerker-but-tankier-than-bunker spellbreakers, halfway-across-the-map-knockdown holos or look-I-can-hit-for-5k-autoattack soulbeasts? Hm.

[nativity.3057]

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:I feel like the skill level of roamers have dropped since POF...If I could use the PvP tiers to describe, pre-POF roamers I meet were largely gold tier, with a few plats and a rare legendary.Post-POF, roamers I meet were largely Bronze-Silver tier, with a few gold and a rare plat.Where have all the skilled roamers gone?

You can't judge a roamer based on their WvW rank.

While you are, on average, more likely get a good fight out of a Plat tier player than a Bronze tier player, rank isn't a great indicator of skill (to be honest, Plat tier players at this point understand which classes are strong and which aren't and will favor towards the stronger class/build. Essentially the difference is you're playing against a "will not die" build and a "i want kills" build).

[Strider Pj.2193]

@nativity.3057 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:I feel like the skill level of roamers have dropped since POF...If I could use the PvP tiers to describe, pre-POF roamers I meet were largely gold tier, with a few plats and a rare legendary.Post-POF, roamers I meet were largely Bronze-Silver tier, with a few gold and a rare plat.Where have all the skilled roamers gone?

You can't judge a roamer based on their WvW rank.

While you are, on average, more likely get a good fight out of a Plat tier player than a Bronze tier player, rank isn't a great indicator of skill (to be honest, Plat tier players at this point understand which classes are strong and which aren't and will favor towards the stronger class/build. Essentially the difference is you're playing against a "will not die" build and a "i want kills" build).

Or a 'I am finally trying this toon out' build...

Or at least that's my excuse...

[Shroud.2307]

He's talking about PvP rank, not WvW rank.

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:If I could use the PvP tiers to describe

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:In my vast time spent in the Mists, I've long ago created a list of types of players/roamers.

DeadlyHighly mechanically and strategically adept. Likely a competitive PvP player, possibly with experience in a variety of other competitive games. Can put forth minimal effort to succeed in outnumbered fights even against above average players. Know their main profession inside and out, upside and down.Very uncommon.

DangerousMechanically and strategically talented but often over confident. Extremely difficult to pin down even on classes with lower mobility and defensive options. Can succeed in outnumbered fights with relative ease but have a tendency to over commit.Uncommon. Typically solo roamers.

Above averageMechanically skilled and a threat in 1v1 with potential to win outnumbered fights. Know their limits but have difficulty choosing proper targets to pressure in outnumbered fights.Common. Usually group roamers, frequently guilds.

AverageSomewhat mechanically skilled but easily panic. Capable of proper rotations and playing their class but unlikely to win outnumbered fights or 1v1's when not playing a roaming build. Typically a zergling, casual or relatively new to the game.Common player.

Below averageNot mechanically or strategically skilled. Spam skills at random, often charge in to fights they have no chance at winning, commonly using multiple Signets.Common player.

FreshNew, physically disabled, may be a friend playing the account. Many possibilities but typically just a new player learning the game. Some are keyboard turners, others appear to have a handle on walking and dodging but die about as easily as an NPC. Better to just /wave and let them carry on with their adventure assuming they don't attack you first!Common player.

From average to fresh are what I mostly see. Hasn't changed much since I started playing in my opinion. It just becomes more and more uncommon to find dedicated solo roamers, or even small group (2 - 4) as time goes on.

I do agree about the rarity of highly skilled players however. I used to see "Deadly" type roamers at least every so often but, now it's almost never. Can only think of a small handful that would fit in to that category.

Very helpful list! As a fellow necro roamer, which type would you consider yourself to be and which type would you consider me to be?

One of my vids here for reference!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1Z5Ox18xaw

[sephiroth.4217]

Roaming is about the fights, theres no fights in WvW anymore.

[Shroud.2307]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

Very helpful list! As a fellow necro roamer, which type would you consider yourself to be and which type would you consider me to be?

Above average, probably about the same as me.

I'm capable of winning outnumbered fights, and have many times. But, due to a variety of limitations (such as being physically disabled, using god awful keybinds and often playing sub-optimal/meme builds) it's pretty much impossible for me to improve beyond where I'm at. That said, I'm content with only being above average. Knowing how many players struggle against me when I play with a trackpad and reversed keybinds is enough to keep my morale pretty high.

I'd say your strong point reflexes. You're very quick to react and good with dodging, stunbreaking and CC's but a little spammy with skills and relying too much on durability.

That's just my opinion though so please don't take it to heart if it disappoints you.

[Hitman.5829]

I have said it once and I will say it again: ANET DEVELOPERS LOVE PLAYING WITH THEIR THIEVES AND MESMERS.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

Very helpful list! As a fellow necro roamer, which type would you consider yourself to be and which type would you consider me to be?

Above average, probably about the same as me.

I'm capable of winning outnumbered fights, and have many times. But, due to a variety of limitations (such as being physically disabled, using god awful keybinds and often playing sub-optimal/meme builds) it's pretty much impossible for me to improve beyond where I'm at. That said, I'm content with only being above average. Knowing how many players struggle against me when I play with a trackpad and reversed keybinds is enough to keep my morale pretty high.

I'd say your strong point reflexes. You're very quick to react and good with dodging, stunbreaking and CC's but a little spammy with skills and relying too much on durability.

That's just my opinion though so please don't take it to heart if it disappoints you.

Thanks for the thoughts! No disappointment at all. I would rate myself in the mid average tier bracket myself since I lose pretty often. Lots of better roamers around.

[freedomtolove.5476]

Extreme roles are bad because it becomes a counter vs counter battle. If somebody is running full zerker damage set then you need to either be zerker too or bunker up or condition them. The damage mitigation just isn’t enough to outlast the dps in this game. This means the fights don’t last very long unless you’re in a huge zerg (wvw) but even then pro guilds will wipe pugs every time.

Also base stats like toughness and health are different across professions. Stability, condition removal, healing, crowd control and dps is unevenly spread across them too. This means that some professions are more suited to “tank” roles. While others are more suited to “condition spam”. Then there are others suited to “zerker” burst dps.

This makes the game very difficult to balance because it is unbalanced to begin with. While yes it is true every profession can be any role some are more suited to it than others. The game can not be balanced except by numbers it seems.

There is many lessons to be taken from gw1 such as all professions having the same base health. Also healing being much more effective than it currently is. Then the pvp in this game might be more than just spamming of conditions and dps. There would be a true counter rather than just damage avoidance.

I think the biggest problem is balancing for different skill levels. Because some players have better reflexes or more experience playing a profession. This means that it is not even the professions that are unbalanced but the actual players themselves.

So what I have seen Arenanet do is make very easy builds like condition bunkers that everyone can use. Then there’s zerker thieves, elementalists, bunker guards, etc, that take a bit more skill. The main problem as discussed in Sirlin’s book is balancing for skill.

This is very difficult and he said that by giving easier options that can work, but don’t work as well as something which requires more skill. That is balance and I think Arenanet know this and what we have is a game balanced for different skill levels.

That seems to be the logical way of thinking about the metas of this game in pvp and wvw. And to me it does seem balanced and if people complain they simply need to “learn to play”. But that does not mean that builds that require much more skill should faceroll everybody either.

So in conclusion Balance is very subjective but if you balance for different skill levels it becomes much easier. And that is why a game can not ever be truly balanced. Because players and people have so many different skill levels.

The way we experience competition is by winning or losing. But also I understand that by being too subjective in our opinions of balance is bad feedback. By making the pvp combat challenging but also not too hard to learn creates a diverse pvp community.

The problem is when the game is objectively balanced completely without any player feedback then it becomes very unpopular quickly. This is why Balance is subjective because players who pvp want to have fun which is highly subjective. This is just my opinions of course because I’m sure that general balance is much harder than it seems.

Let's use the conquest meta as an example. We fight each other on small circles. And we have to hold these circles to win the game.

It’s not the condition amulets or boon corruptions that is the reason these condition classes are the best. It’s simply the fact that everything else that could counter the Conquest Meta has been nerfed by Arenanet to make way for Esports.

Instead of a power based twitch reaction time meta we have an abundance of conditions and passive gameplay. We have area of effect skills ticking away on a point. We have Bunker Specs putting out enough damage to kill players.

Why is this? Because Arenanet has slowly nerfed burst damage and replaced active damage mitigation with passive invulnerabilities. Now instead of dodging power based attacks with well timed evades we have classes running max AOE condition bunkers.

These condition classes are dominating because other classes cannot bring enough sustain to compete with them. They are kings of conditions and AOE at the same time with the best ability to stack boons.

You want to know why this game isn’t an ESport Arenanet? Because you catered too much to casuals and made this game too simple. If we had Monks they at least could heal the other classes without sustain directly instead of them slowly dying to AOE and conditions.

I call this game Gank Wars 2 and there’s a simple reason why. Immobilise stacking, Stun/Daze chaining and CC spam is neverending and only certain classes have enough Stability or condition removals to escape.

There is a general lack of sustain and too much dps (both conditions and power). What is the counter to DPS? Nothing…but in GuildWars 1 it was a Monk and that is why this game lacks depth. Dodge rolls aren’t a replacement for healing and protection that a monk class would offer.

I find it funny when people assume GW1 was only theorycrafting builds and counters. The combat was just as if not more active than GW2. The fact is it had interrupts and hexes (based around punishing enemy for spamming). Proper protection and healing spells (able to almost full heal from a spike of dps). Along with Conditions, Melee and kiting, Aoes, block skills/spells and teleports. Also I probably need to mention you couldn’t just spam skills either. They were reliant on energy which you had a supply of and when you ran out it had to regenerate.

^ There’s an example of what is possible with monks. Also here’s a list of monk spells in gw1: “Monks…with their unparalleled gift for keeping their allies alive” http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_monk_skills

Just some ideas and my opinion about the different builds. Since the meta seems to be either extreme conditions bunker or burst spike with not much room in the middle. I’m hoping healing support can be made more viable instead of people just seeing green numbers but not getting any loot.

Bunker and support do very little damage unless they’re a hybrid to do conditions but you generally need some healing power to be a good support player.

Arenanet are buffing support healing and I am glad for it. Problem is most of the full zerker burst spike damage just cannot be outhealed. There’s not much you can do to mitigate the damage either apart from your main heal, dodges, blocks, invulns and evades.

A full zerker amulet player will die in a couple of hits yet can 1shot other players, while a full on bunker such as a guardian can tank hits from multiple players. Also the condition guys in the middle cant really be blamed either since he needs to tank and do some dps through the toughness of the bunkers.

Even Monks can die and be pressured from burst damage as seen in the video but most importantly it gives a real counter to spamming of dps (either conditions or power damage). Right now it’s just a race to see who can spam and avoid the most damage to win hence we have all these “passive” condition builds and burst spikes that rely on being invulnerable.

Boons run out and can be stripped not to mention if the player isn’t in bunker gear they won’t be enough usually unless they have a good amount of toughness. Healing and condition removal is what keeps you alive in an actual fight and it seems to only work in wvw with lots of players running support.

Evades/dodges, condition removal, block and invulnerable skills all have cooldowns meanwhile the damage just keeps coming from autoattacks and aoes. This is why I think this game would benefit from having a monk, to counter the insane burst damage.

What I want simply is a game with monks like gw1 had where fights can actually last longer than a couple of minutes. But apparently Arenanet decided that healers are boring and everyone should just kill each other with dps. Healing and Damage Mitigation needs a real buff if this game wants to have any chance at being competitive and balanced.

Fights lasting longer hones skills and teamwork with players. The best example I can use in gw2 is wvw where there is enough support and the aoe limit of 5 prevents players being bursted down instantly if they make a mistake. The stacking zerg meta is there for a reason and all zerker and condition damage does is make it even more needed.

Remember gw1 we had so many skills and different builds and they could all be used because they countered each other. But that didn’t mean that some builds weren’t better than others for certain things. There is too many players complaining that 1 build is too powerful but in my opinion its all based on skill level. Burst can 1-shot bunker or condis but they have more defense making it harder.

Do you guys want a game with no “Overpowered” skills and everything the same and boring? Half the fun of games is to have fun and in gw1 I sure had fun in pve with my shadow form tank lol. So in all honesty maybe try different classes more and try to learn all the different skills and how they can be countered. There is no reason for nerfs because you guys refuse to adapt to the meta.

I played gw1 had fun but this combat system is more dynamic being able to actively dodge and every class having their own heals. I just get bored of the whole dps wins everything while damage mitigation and healing is not even considered. I think gw2 lacks depth and with a monk it could easily have it.

Maybe I’m just the type of player that likes when I’m needed such as Shadow Form tanks in gw1. There are many other players that I think want to be able to feel like they can help the party and be useful instead of just another player. This is why I love healing and damage mitigation and tanking is so fun.

I truly believe Thief's burst meta with bunker Guardian’s tankiness and Warrior’s Healing Signet and invuln stances balance each other out. Also Engineer’s, Necromancer's and Elementalist’s Aoe damage controls conquest points. Meanwhile Ranger's pets and long distance damage can take out these targets from a distance. Mesmer’s spamming of clones also allows them to easily confuse an enemy long enough for them to burst them down. This is truly the best meta we can get and if you don’t like it experiment with builds and kill the passive no skill builds as you call them.

If some builds don’t have a counter then reroll to them since they’re obviously so overpowered and never die. Maybe try playing as a team instead of trying to 1v1 everything. Burst/zerker will die quickly that’s a fact. Would you prefer the meta to be bunkers and conditions only?

This is the state of the meta and Arenanet will not change it because it attracts the most players. Do you think that there is more skill to playing your build and everything else is cheese? This is called not playing to win and making excuses.

Everybody plays for or against a profession and thinks it is Overpowered. Well I am simply going to say that is your opinion. There is no balance when everything is “overpowered”.

Arenanet will not listen to your complaints obviously biased against certain professions. Because all you want is for them to be nerfed and your own profession buffed. I will link “Playing to win” by Sirlin now.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub