Thoughts about rifle dodge stealth

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

So, people hate the permastealth deadeye. A large part of this is that there's no good opportunity to punish them outside of good use of reveal, which for the most part makes the spec pretty obnoxious when played for high stealth and spike. So here's a question to try to focus people's thoughts concerning what exactly is OP.

Since they've changed the stolen skill to apply stealth only when above a certain amount of malice, why not change silent scope to work in the same way?

It changes nothing in terms of PvE viability, it doesn't change how deadeye can stealth stack through smoke fields to get an initial advantage in PvP and WvW or how dangerous they are once at max malice. It would however mean there's a buildup to that easy stealth access which should give more warning before combat is initiated, and provides more punish opportunities once a high damage sneak attack has been pulled off (no malice means no easy stealth from rifle, so all remaining sources of stealth are thus interruptable).

Would this actually change anything? If not, is the issue actually the stealth being so easy to access, or the damage coupled with the stealth? What do people think?

[Caedmon.6798]

Go play a thief for test purpose without using Silent scope and see how it works out.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Silent scope is problematic because it has zero counterplay. A good DE will maintain long range, and there's really nothing you can do about it since you can't prevent a dodge. With the ability to cleanse Revealed, it's guaranteed stealth.

Part of what made SA have counterplay and be remotely balanced was that BP+HS could be interrupted by a ton of different skills and was immobile/suspect to AoE damage, and it provided really poor offensive capabilities since it sacrificed out CS or another damage-oriented traitline. What was once a build that followed the principle of "death by a thousand cuts" (or really, just a few well-played burst combos), but still had counterplay opportunities, has seen both of those weaknesses removed by Silent Scope (interruptable stealth, fixed/punishable location), and the Malice System - particularly MBS which gives more damage than literally all offensive trait lines combined and optimized for damage, and rivals the damage bonuses given by DA+CS on 5 Malice rather than 7, and with M7, has way more baseline stats from the might and so on.

SA was balanced around camping in stealth but having the ability to be denied said stealth (interruption for D/P) or being vulnerable by being nearby (CnD) or on a fixed position as mentioned, and also to be balanced around periods of time where the traitline literally did nothing while Revealed. With such reliable stealth and chaining of stealth, it's nigh impossible to justify SA being as strong as it is, since it's otherwise permanent. And even post-attack, DE also removes the periods of time when SA is ineffective by being able to remove the Revealed debuff, which was also instated solely to deal with SA as a means of counterplay.

Daredevil's Bounding Dodger (Leap finisher) also made for similar problems with OH pistol - you can't interrupt/prevent the dodge/stealth. But it still took a big blow to damage if running SA.

Problem is, SA isn't the problem - it's Deadeye. The counterplay was systematically removed from a very strong defensive traitline, and all of its damage losses were negated. There becomes no weakness to camping stealth unless in sPvP where you can't capture points. Open-field WvW/strict combat, though... those downsides don't exist.

It's why when I designed my version of the Deadeye, I made Stakeout a perma-stealth skill that broke stealth/inflicted revealed when any movement/skill was used. Lots of counterplay - the same types as SA's old weaknesses, and why my version of the rifle had little burst opportunity as well, as to prevent exploitation. It became a neat way to fool people by using something like a delayed teleport (like SB5 or Fakeout Bolt while the projectile was mid-air) to swap into rifle and cast to pseudo-reset, or just to lay in waiting for someone unsuspecting to run by to engage on - but nothing more.

Silent Scope needs to go entirely, bottom line. That at least brings back some degree of the counterplay problem (Meld is still an issue because it's on ammo), but it doesn't solve the part where people will continue to play stealth-camping one-shot builds. SA is fair in core, so I'd argue it's DE needing to be reworked from the ground up.

Unfortunately, anything short of what I proposed on the high level (and a lot of the details/specifics of what I said is out-dated with other changes they've made to Core and Daredevil), is going to have playstyle problems. The entire notion of a stealthy sniper for the thief is flawed and impossible to balance because its foundation explicitly prohibits it. Unless they intend to rework the entirety of core thief, DE will remain broken from a fun perspective, unless re-done on the concept-level.

[babazhook.6805]

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:Silent scope is problematic because it has zero counterplay. A good DE will maintain long range, and there's really nothing you can do about it since you can't prevent a dodge. With the ability to cleanse Revealed, it's guaranteed stealth.

Part of what made SA have counterplay and be remotely balanced was that BP+HS could be interrupted by a ton of different skills and was immobile/suspect to AoE damage, and it provided really poor offensive capabilities since it sacrificed out CS or another damage-oriented traitline. What was once a build that followed the principle of "death by a thousand cuts" (or really, just a few well-played burst combos), but still had counterplay opportunities, has seen both of those weaknesses removed by Silent Scope (interruptable stealth, fixed/punishable location), and the Malice System - particularly MBS which gives more damage than literally all offensive trait lines combined and optimized for damage, and rivals the damage bonuses given by DA+CS on 5 Malice rather than 7, and with M7, has way more baseline stats from the might and so on.

SA was balanced around camping in stealth but having the ability to be denied said stealth (interruption for D/P) or being vulnerable by being nearby (CnD) or on a fixed position as mentioned, and also to be balanced around periods of time where the traitline literally did nothing while Revealed. With such reliable stealth and chaining of stealth, it's nigh impossible to justify SA being as strong as it is, since it's otherwise permanent. And even post-attack, DE also removes the periods of time when SA is ineffective by being able to remove the Revealed debuff, which was also instated solely to deal with SA as a means of counterplay.

Daredevil's Bounding Dodger (Leap finisher) also made for similar problems with OH pistol - you can't interrupt/prevent the dodge/stealth. But it still took a big blow to damage if running SA.

Problem is, SA isn't the problem - it's Deadeye. The counterplay was systematically removed from a very strong defensive traitline, and all of its damage losses were negated. There becomes no weakness to camping stealth unless in sPvP where you can't capture points. Open-field WvW/strict combat, though... those downsides don't exist.

It's why when I designed my version of the Deadeye, I made Stakeout a perma-stealth skill that broke stealth/inflicted revealed when any movement/skill was used. Lots of counterplay - the same types as SA's old weaknesses, and why my version of the rifle had little burst opportunity as well, as to prevent exploitation. It became a neat way to fool people by using something like a delayed teleport (like SB5 or Fakeout Bolt while the projectile was mid-air) to swap into rifle and cast to pseudo-reset, or just to lay in waiting for someone unsuspecting to run by to engage on - but nothing more.

Silent Scope needs to go entirely, bottom line. That at least brings back some degree of the counterplay problem (Meld is still an issue because it's on ammo), but it doesn't solve the part where people will continue to play stealth-camping one-shot builds. SA is fair in core, so I'd argue it's DE needing to be reworked from the ground up.

Unfortunately, anything short of what I proposed on the high level (and a lot of the details/specifics of what I said is out-dated with other changes they've made to Core and Daredevil), is going to have playstyle problems. The entire notion of a stealthy sniper for the thief is flawed and impossible to balance because its foundation explicitly prohibits it. Unless they intend to rework the entirety of core thief, DE will remain broken from a fun perspective, unless re-done on the concept-level.

DE is more then Just Rifle. The weaponsets other than rifle that SPEC DE are fine and have excellent balance even if they heavy on stealth. Deadeye is not a problem. Rifle DE maybe and I think should be addressed by making it harder to stack stealth. This does not necessarily mean removing stealth on dodge. It means making consecutive uses of stealth more onerous.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:Silent scope is problematic because it has zero counterplay. A good DE will maintain long range, and there's really nothing you can do about it since you can't prevent a dodge. With the ability to cleanse Revealed, it's guaranteed stealth.

Part of what made SA have counterplay and be remotely balanced was that BP+HS could be interrupted by a ton of different skills and was immobile/suspect to AoE damage, and it provided really poor offensive capabilities since it sacrificed out CS or another damage-oriented traitline. What was once a build that followed the principle of "death by a thousand cuts" (or really, just a few well-played burst combos), but still had counterplay opportunities, has seen both of those weaknesses removed by Silent Scope (interruptable stealth, fixed/punishable location), and the Malice System - particularly MBS which gives more damage than literally all offensive trait lines combined and optimized for damage, and rivals the damage bonuses given by DA+CS on 5 Malice rather than 7, and with M7, has way more baseline stats from the might and so on.

SA was balanced around camping in stealth but having the ability to be denied said stealth (interruption for D/P) or being vulnerable by being nearby (CnD) or on a fixed position as mentioned, and also to be balanced around periods of time where the traitline literally did nothing while Revealed. With such reliable stealth and chaining of stealth, it's nigh impossible to justify SA being as strong as it is, since it's otherwise permanent. And even post-attack, DE also removes the periods of time when SA is ineffective by being able to remove the Revealed debuff, which was also instated solely to deal with SA as a means of counterplay.

Daredevil's Bounding Dodger (Leap finisher) also made for similar problems with OH pistol - you can't interrupt/prevent the dodge/stealth. But it still took a big blow to damage if running SA.

Problem is, SA isn't the problem - it's Deadeye. The counterplay was systematically removed from a very strong defensive traitline, and all of its damage losses were negated. There becomes no weakness to camping stealth unless in sPvP where you can't capture points. Open-field WvW/strict combat, though... those downsides don't exist.

It's why when I designed my version of the Deadeye, I made Stakeout a perma-stealth skill that broke stealth/inflicted revealed when any movement/skill was used. Lots of counterplay - the same types as SA's old weaknesses, and why my version of the rifle had little burst opportunity as well, as to prevent exploitation. It became a neat way to fool people by using something like a delayed teleport (like SB5 or Fakeout Bolt while the projectile was mid-air) to swap into rifle and cast to pseudo-reset, or just to lay in waiting for someone unsuspecting to run by to engage on - but nothing more.

Silent Scope needs to go entirely, bottom line. That at least brings back some degree of the counterplay problem (Meld is still an issue because it's on ammo), but it doesn't solve the part where people will continue to play stealth-camping one-shot builds. SA is fair in core, so I'd argue it's DE needing to be reworked from the ground up.

Unfortunately, anything short of what I proposed on the high level (and a lot of the details/specifics of what I said is out-dated with other changes they've made to Core and Daredevil), is going to have playstyle problems. The entire notion of a stealthy sniper for the thief is flawed and impossible to balance because its foundation explicitly prohibits it. Unless they intend to rework the entirety of core thief, DE will remain broken from a fun perspective, unless re-done on the concept-level.

DE is more then Just Rifle. The weaponsets other than rifle that SPEC DE are fine and have excellent balance even if they heavy on stealth. Deadeye is not a problem. Rifle DE maybe and I think should be addressed by making it harder to stack stealth. This does not necessarily mean removing stealth on dodge. It means making consecutive uses of stealth more onerous.

@ DecieverX; I get where you're coming from, that's why I suggested something that only affects silent scope and not SA this time. Ideally I'd like to find a solution where it's still possible to stealth on rifle, but it also has some form of counterplay or buildup to it, or just a straight rework to SA that rewards entering stealth but not camping in it. I know it's more likely that ANet will implement a simple solution than a full rework of a traitline tho, hence the low hanging fruit optisteal@ Babazhook; I agree, a lot of the other sets are fine, even rifle without SA is fine as is. As I said, I'd personally rather see a fix to SA as it's a systematic problem at this point, but it's easier to just change DE. Having stealth on dodge remain but consume 1 malice per dodge is another option, that way people can't use it for permastealth and maintain max malice for a spike, but that might be more annoying than I think.

I guess my goals are to create a situation where the rifle deadeye can be seen coming when out of stealth. Mesmer and holo spikes from stealth are balanced in a way as if you're observant you'll see them stealthing and know a spike is incoming, deadeye lacks that extra information entirely. Since every other set is fine with DE, either silent scope or SA needs to be altered. Can't think of another way round it.

[kash.9213]

I float around different size fights in WvW a lot. I haven't felt at a huge loss not using dodge to stealth much lately, even without Meld, but I think I might have a hard time with my build if SA were altered with too drastically. I would have to think about how hard not having dodge to stealth would hit raiding, fractals, spvp, and all that though.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@kash.9213 said:I float around different size fights in WvW a lot. I haven't felt at a huge loss not using dodge to stealth much lately, even without Meld, but I think I might have a hard time with my build if SA were altered with too drastically. I would have to think about how hard not having dodge to stealth would hit raiding, fractals, spvp, and all that though.

This is why I was suggesting that dodge to stealth still is a thing, just only when you're over a certain number of malice stacks. So it would require a target and a couple of attacks, but the pew pew dodge DJ pew pew rotation is otherwise unaffected.

If it's a bad idea it's a bad idea, fair enough. I'm just trying to think outside the box a little is all.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:Silent scope is problematic because it has zero counterplay. A good DE will maintain long range, and there's really nothing you can do about it since you can't prevent a dodge. With the ability to cleanse Revealed, it's guaranteed stealth.

Part of what made SA have counterplay and be remotely balanced was that BP+HS could be interrupted by a ton of different skills and was immobile/suspect to AoE damage, and it provided really poor offensive capabilities since it sacrificed out CS or another damage-oriented traitline. What was once a build that followed the principle of "death by a thousand cuts" (or really, just a few well-played burst combos), but still had counterplay opportunities, has seen both of those weaknesses removed by Silent Scope (interruptable stealth, fixed/punishable location), and the Malice System - particularly MBS which gives more damage than literally all offensive trait lines combined and optimized for damage, and rivals the damage bonuses given by DA+CS on 5 Malice rather than 7, and with M7, has way more baseline stats from the might and so on.

SA was balanced around camping in stealth but having the ability to be denied said stealth (interruption for D/P) or being vulnerable by being nearby (CnD) or on a fixed position as mentioned, and also to be balanced around periods of time where the traitline literally did nothing while Revealed. With such reliable stealth and chaining of stealth, it's nigh impossible to justify SA being as strong as it is, since it's otherwise permanent. And even post-attack, DE also removes the periods of time when SA is ineffective by being able to remove the Revealed debuff, which was also instated solely to deal with SA as a means of counterplay.

Daredevil's Bounding Dodger (Leap finisher) also made for similar problems with OH pistol - you can't interrupt/prevent the dodge/stealth. But it still took a big blow to damage if running SA.

Problem is, SA isn't the problem - it's Deadeye. The counterplay was systematically removed from a very strong defensive traitline, and all of its damage losses were negated. There becomes no weakness to camping stealth unless in sPvP where you can't capture points. Open-field WvW/strict combat, though... those downsides don't exist.

It's why when I designed my version of the Deadeye, I made Stakeout a perma-stealth skill that broke stealth/inflicted revealed when any movement/skill was used. Lots of counterplay - the same types as SA's old weaknesses, and why my version of the rifle had little burst opportunity as well, as to prevent exploitation. It became a neat way to fool people by using something like a delayed teleport (like SB5 or Fakeout Bolt while the projectile was mid-air) to swap into rifle and cast to pseudo-reset, or just to lay in waiting for someone unsuspecting to run by to engage on - but nothing more.

Silent Scope needs to go entirely, bottom line. That at least brings back some degree of the counterplay problem (Meld is still an issue because it's on ammo), but it doesn't solve the part where people will continue to play stealth-camping one-shot builds. SA is fair in core, so I'd argue it's DE needing to be reworked from the ground up.

Unfortunately, anything short of what I proposed on the high level (and a lot of the details/specifics of what I said is out-dated with other changes they've made to Core and Daredevil), is going to have playstyle problems. The entire notion of a stealthy sniper for the thief is flawed and impossible to balance because its foundation explicitly prohibits it. Unless they intend to rework the entirety of core thief, DE will remain broken from a fun perspective, unless re-done on the concept-level.

DE is more then Just Rifle. The weaponsets other than rifle that SPEC DE are fine and have excellent balance even if they heavy on stealth. Deadeye is not a problem. Rifle DE maybe and I think should be addressed by making it harder to stack stealth. This does not necessarily mean removing stealth on dodge. It means making consecutive uses of stealth more onerous.

DE is more than just rifle, but what makes DE oppressive is Silent Scope and MBS. Rifle on its own isn't that intimidating without Silent Scope, and neither is MH dagger without MBS. SA and camping stealth is the culprit as far as playstyle is concerned, which is nothing new and something I've condemned for years. But numerically and the overall success of DE is driven by its major buffs to SScope and MBS since neither have real counterplay and negate the drawbacks to SA.

@Jugglemonkey.8741

I speak strictly on levels of power here. SA being reworked is something I've been requesting since basically this game launched. Anyone who's been around here long enough can tell you that I've always been outspoken against permastealth as a concept, and especially against how SA is a bad traitline unless you sit in stealth. I'm a big proponent of interactive play/visual tells which GW2 was built on, and recognize the importance of information in PvP games; permastealth as a whole kind of negates this.

[Caedmon.6798]

"I guess my goals are to create a situation where the rifle deadeye can be seen coming when out of stealth"

They Can be seen coming out of stealth since dj has a clear animation by showing an orange line going from him to you Before the hit,they also reveal themselves before the hit plus it has a very distinctive sound.Besides most people are able to dodge it fine unless they run out of dodges,most people do see or hear it coming.

[kash.9213]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@kash.9213 said:I float around different size fights in WvW a lot. I haven't felt at a huge loss not using dodge to stealth much lately, even without Meld, but I think I might have a hard time with my build if SA were altered with too drastically. I would have to think about how hard not having dodge to stealth would hit raiding, fractals, spvp, and all that though.

This is why I was suggesting that dodge to stealth still is a thing, just only when you're over a certain number of malice stacks. So it would require a target and a couple of attacks, but the pew pew dodge DJ pew pew rotation is otherwise unaffected.

If it's a bad idea it's a bad idea, fair enough. I'm just trying to think outside the box a little is all.

I don't think it's a bad idea, I get enough stealth spread out at the cost of some Initiative but it's not bad. I just don't know enough about game modes like raiding and all that to know what they're in need of.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@kash.9213 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@kash.9213 said:I float around different size fights in WvW a lot. I haven't felt at a huge loss not using dodge to stealth much lately, even without Meld, but I think I might have a hard time with my build if SA were altered with too drastically. I would have to think about how hard not having dodge to stealth would hit raiding, fractals, spvp, and all that though.

This is why I was suggesting that dodge to stealth still is a thing, just only when you're over a certain number of malice stacks. So it would require a target and a couple of attacks, but the pew pew dodge DJ pew pew rotation is otherwise unaffected.

If it's a bad idea it's a bad idea, fair enough. I'm just trying to think outside the box a little is all.

I don't think it's a bad idea, I get enough stealth spread out at the cost of some Initiative but it's not bad. I just don't know enough about game modes like raiding and all that to know what they're in need of.

Sustained stealth doesn't matter in PvE where DPS is the only thing that matters; it's half the reason D/D is utilized - it's faster to make the backstab and costs less initiative (the other half being CnD damage).

It used to somewhat matter for skipping dungeons but I don't think ANet has considered dungeons for anything in the past three years.

They could removed sustained stealth from the game and the only people it'd really affect is WvW players.