Rex.3516 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 It's long overdue.I'm a glass Thief, by the way, but I doubt the armour rating should matter at this stage; that's not acceptable damage for any class to output to any other class with auto attacks.I would recommend taking Soul Beast's "Sic 'em" benefits away for a start, and look into entirely revising their WvW capabilities. This is a joke in any given scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSeed.3528 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Btw, did you know it can go higher, much much higher than that? In the right situation you can pull off anywhere between 11-15k iirc. There was an older post in the ranger forums about a month or so back with a video of Quickcry doing some high dmg. Not sure how high it reaches currently since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 did some 10k autos with rang lb in pvp a while back.its a bad joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepwalker.1398 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Glass v Glass, so what's the problem?They range with Sic'em, you're melee and have Assassin's Signet with a much higher damage when combined with backstab.Maybe need to look into thief/DE and stealth first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex.3516 Posted November 1, 2018 Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 @Sleepwalker.1398 said:Glass v Glass, so what's the problem?They range with Sic'em, you're melee and have Assassin's Signet with a much higher damage when combined with backstab.Maybe need to look into thief/DE and stealth first.For the record, this was in a zerg v zerg skirmish scenario. Second of all - I am running sword / pistol daredevil, an off meta build I personally run for fun. Third - this has nothing to do with class vs class whining. Of course deadeye stealth, for example, needs nerfed as well. But that's not the point of my post. The point is right in front of your face, and you apparently missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepwalker.1398 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 @Scorp.6152 said:@Sleepwalker.1398 said:Glass v Glass, so what's the problem?They range with Sic'em, you're melee and have Assassin's Signet with a much higher damage when combined with backstab.Maybe need to look into thief/DE and stealth first.For the record, this was in a zerg v zerg skirmish scenario. Second of all - I am running sword / pistol daredevil, an off meta build I personally run for fun. Third - this has nothing to do with class vs class whining. Of course deadeye stealth, for example, needs nerfed as well. But that's not the point of my post. The point is right in front of your face, and you apparently missed it.Valid point but i thought no one wants Rangers in their zerg party :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 I see nothing wrong with that. I have seen Thieves and Mesmers do WAY more damage. And let's not even get into the red ring carpet of death. Rangers have finally been balanced enough to be somewhat useful again in WvW and now everybody wants to take that away from them again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex.3516 Posted November 1, 2018 Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 @Sleepwalker.1398 said:@Scorp.6152 said:@Sleepwalker.1398 said:Glass v Glass, so what's the problem?They range with Sic'em, you're melee and have Assassin's Signet with a much higher damage when combined with backstab.Maybe need to look into thief/DE and stealth first.For the record, this was in a zerg v zerg skirmish scenario. Second of all - I am running sword / pistol daredevil, an off meta build I personally run for fun. Third - this has nothing to do with class vs class whining. Of course deadeye stealth, for example, needs nerfed as well. But that's not the point of my post. The point is right in front of your face, and you apparently missed it.Valid point but i thought no one wants Rangers in their zerg party :)Well, yes. You would definitely be right there. But Soul Beast is arguably the most popular pug class to run, and we all know why. When something is easy and performs well, everyone plays it. Therefore it needs toned down; I'm simply trying to speed up the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 @"Scorp.6152" said:It's long overdue.I'm a glass Thief, by the way, but I doubt the armour rating should matter at this stage; that's not acceptable damage for any class to output to any other class with auto attacks.I would recommend taking Soul Beast's "Sic 'em" benefits away for a start, and look into entirely revising their WvW capabilities. This is a joke in any given scenario.I’m all for it... after they deal with the permastealth 1 shot thieves... There is also a whole lot of carp from various professions, including thief, that need work... Until then why don’t you try putting some toughness and vitality in your build, might help a bit! GL my glassy thief friend! Edit- I almost forgot! Yeah! Skills tied to auto-attacks need to be killed off hard! I totally agree it's way long overdue and completely not acceptable to be able to do 21,560k backstabs... from stealth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 @Swagger.1459 Posting a video from almost an entire year ago isn't relevant to current issues with balance. A huge amount of changes have taken place since Nov 19 2017 from a number of professions that affect that type of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riko.9214 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 They indeed do a bit too much for an attack that require 0 preparation and spends 0 resources. There are undoubtedly things that hit harder but those require preparation/resources unlike autos from extreme range.However that is unlikely A-net will do anything about it. It is one of their hand-holding classes (if not the most hand-holding of all of them) and it has to give reasonable results with low effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shagaliscious.6281 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Ranger just have so many damage modifiers it's ridiculous. Before nerfing damage to skills, they need to look at balancing those modifiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 @Riko.9214 said:They indeed do a bit too much for an attack that require 0 preparation and spends 0 resources. There are undoubtedly things that hit harder but those require preparation/resources unlike autos from extreme range.However that is unlikely A-net will do anything about it. It is one of their hand-holding classes (if not the most hand-holding of all of them) and it has to give reasonable results with low effort. The preparation is the modifiers and Sic Em and Beast Mode (although certainly not a lot of prep...). What makes it worse is these attacks hit from almost 2k range on flat ground, and even further than 2k on even slightly elevated terrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 @"Scorp.6152" said:It's long overdue.I'm a glass Thief, by the way, but I doubt the armour rating should matter at this stage; that's not acceptable damage for any class to output to any other class with auto attacks.It's WvW.Armor absolutely matters.None of the toons I play regularly in WvW take this much damage from any autoattack. All the toons I play in WvW use some kind of toughness or vitality (or both) in their stat set.While Deadeye is a little overtuned right now, your gear is undertuned.Since you say you play a "glass" toon, why are you surprised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 @Stand The Wall.6987 said:did some 10k autos with rang lb in pvp a while back.its a bad joke.Damage output balance for casuals :) they cant be punished right?How on earth would those players that cant play w/o those 10k autos be eficient, that would be the same as punish players and make them having more trouble with the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 @Swagger.1459 said:@"Scorp.6152" said:It's long overdue.I'm a glass Thief, by the way, but I doubt the armour rating should matter at this stage; that's not acceptable damage for any class to output to any other class with auto attacks.I would recommend taking Soul Beast's "Sic 'em" benefits away for a start, and look into entirely revising their WvW capabilities. This is a joke in any given scenario.I’m all for it... after they deal with the permastealth 1 shot thieves... There is also a whole lot of carp from various professions, including thief, that need work... Until then why don’t you try putting some toughness and vitality in your build, might help a bit! GL my glassy thief friend! Edit- I almost forgot! Yeah! Skills tied to auto-attacks need to be killed off hard! I totally agree it's way long overdue and completely not acceptable to be able to do 21,560k backstabs... from stealth... im ok with that damage, just remove the unbloclables form the class xD, i tend to pull shield or dome or even a reflect BAM insta dead ;D, how can u blind a stealthed player ANET SHOW ME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex.3516 Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 A lot of you are, again, missing the point. You look at this, and say, "Yeah, but THIS is OP, too!"That is not the point. If you want to lash out at another class, by all means make a new thread. I will reiterate, this is not a class vs class rant. It's a general balance topic.No class being able to output the damage a Ranger can from such a safe distance is balanced. That includes any class of similar capability. Just because I didn't list off all imbalances in this game does not mean my point is not valid.There are many things needing nerfed. We get it. But saying this is fine because something else "hits harder" is facile when you look at every objective truth, and bear in mind this was an auto attack from 2k range in the middle of a zerg. Fully contextualise that for a moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 @Scorp.6152 said:@Sleepwalker.1398 said:@Scorp.6152 said:@Sleepwalker.1398 said:Glass v Glass, so what's the problem?They range with Sic'em, you're melee and have Assassin's Signet with a much higher damage when combined with backstab.Maybe need to look into thief/DE and stealth first.For the record, this was in a zerg v zerg skirmish scenario. Second of all - I am running sword / pistol daredevil, an off meta build I personally run for fun. Third - this has nothing to do with class vs class whining. Of course deadeye stealth, for example, needs nerfed as well. But that's not the point of my post. The point is right in front of your face, and you apparently missed it.Valid point but i thought no one wants Rangers in their zerg party :)Well, yes. You would definitely be right there. But Soul Beast is arguably the most popular pug class to run, and we all know why. When something is easy and performs well, everyone plays it. Therefore it needs toned down; I'm simply trying to speed up the process.Are you even certain it was a soulbeast? As you say, it was zerg v zerg with you on a glass thief. A glass core ranger could also do 8-9k longbow autos with the right traits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 @"Scorp.6152" said:A lot of you are, again, missing the point. You look at this, and say, "Yeah, but THIS is OP, too!"That is not the point. If you want to lash out at another class, by all means make a new thread. I will reiterate, this is not a class vs class rant. It's a general balance topic.No class being able to output the damage a Ranger can from such a safe distance is balanced. That includes any class of similar capability. Just because I didn't list off all imbalances in this game does not mean my point is not valid.There are many things needing nerfed. We get it. But saying this is fine because something else "hits harder" is facile when you look at every objective truth, and bear in mind this was an auto attack from 2k range in the middle of a zerg. Fully contextualise that for a moment.Then you should also start looking at your glassy thief class if you are so concerned with "balance". You admit to running around "glassy" so expect to get smashed hard sometimes. Also, the reason you run glass so YOU can pull off huge numbers too, so it looks hypocritical of you to complain about 1 profession and not another... You run around doing glassy damage and think it's ok, yet when it happens to you it's not ok... And here you are only blaming ranger when I've seen a whole lot of profession builds pulling off crazy numbers...Will I find in your post history complaints about permastealth 1 shot thief builds and brining up ways to "balance" them? probably not right? No, however, lets point fingers at another profession and claim broken, when there are tons of things broken... And the difference between you and I are as follows.. When you get hit for a lot of damage you complain about a skill or a profession. I provide suggestions like increasing overall health in wvw, and tone down crit damage, to balance out the damage creep that has occurred over the last 2 xpacs… See the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex.3516 Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 @Shadowcat.2680 said:@Scorp.6152 said:@Sleepwalker.1398 said:@Scorp.6152 said:@Sleepwalker.1398 said:Glass v Glass, so what's the problem?They range with Sic'em, you're melee and have Assassin's Signet with a much higher damage when combined with backstab.Maybe need to look into thief/DE and stealth first.For the record, this was in a zerg v zerg skirmish scenario. Second of all - I am running sword / pistol daredevil, an off meta build I personally run for fun. Third - this has nothing to do with class vs class whining. Of course deadeye stealth, for example, needs nerfed as well. But that's not the point of my post. The point is right in front of your face, and you apparently missed it.Valid point but i thought no one wants Rangers in their zerg party :)Well, yes. You would definitely be right there. But Soul Beast is arguably the most popular pug class to run, and we all know why. When something is easy and performs well, everyone plays it. Therefore it needs toned down; I'm simply trying to speed up the process.Are you even certain it was a soulbeast? As you say, it was zerg v zerg with you on a glass thief. A glass core ranger could also do 8-9k longbow autos with the right traits.I did target them, but not long enough to confirm that, honestly. It was a quick turn of events for sure. I just seemingly remembered noticing the green aura they get before turning the camera to reposition, and bam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Ranger has had the LEAST amount of love from the Devs when it comes to WvW. Druid used to have a spot in Zergs and then Firebrand came along and outperformed it to the point of non existence. Again I tell you, Ranger is fine where it is at. It finally has a place in WvW after EVERYBODY and their mother's dog yelling at people for playing a Ranger in WvW. I can't tell you how many tells I got telling me to play a Thief or Engineer instead of Ranger as they contributed more than Ranger did. Ranger FINALLY has a role in WvW again, that of a Roamer and somewhat of a counter to Thief and Mesmer. Now you want to nerf them into oblivion once again so that they have no spot. If you don't like taking a ton of damage then start adding some armor into your build. Ranger has so much hate against it with Invuln's, Reflects, and Evades it's not even funny. To top it off we don't really even have a counter to Stealth. Sic' Em can reveal, but then DE just counters that reveal and goes right back into Stealth. We have to be able to target something to hit it, and if someone Stealths then we lose target. As so many have said and you continue to ignore, stop playing Glass Zerker Thief build so you can 1 shot people from behind while in Stealth and you won't die. Ranger is easy to counter, 1 shot Stealth Thief not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 "Sic' Em!" could stand to receive a nerf, at least for the Ranger specifically and included while merged, but not for the pet.As a long time glass Ranger, I have a few things to say though.The unblockable that Unstoppable Union provides (and to a lesser extend Signet of the Hunt) is incredibly necessary in the current state of the game. There are so many reflects and projectile destruction that it's entirely possible to have 90% of your attacks negated in medium/large scale fights. If you're floating around the fringe of a zerg trying to pick off backliners or other squishy players and you're not using unblockables believe me, it is a huge loss in potential lethality.For the longest time I was playing core Ranger because I felt having Skirmishing to buff my critical chance as well as Quick Draw to increase both my offensive and defensive potential was more valuable than the extra damage that Soulbeast offers. Unfortunately that is not the case. The unblockables and pet merged skills are incredibly valuable whether you're full glass, hybrid or boon-centric.If you're being hit for that much with an auto attack then the Ranger is full glass as well. I've hit people with similar numbers many times but, it requires a bit of preparation (albeit not much) and your target to also be very squishy. It also means said Ranger will die to a stiff breeze. Deadeye's have the same issue but the difference between the two is that one can much more easily escape from combat undetected.I do agree that the damage Soulbeast can pump out is pretty disgusting and I wouldn't be against some shaves. It's extremely easy to play and requires very little timing or effort to achieve results. That said, these are two classes that now excel at an important role in WvW and I'd hate to see either of them gutted because some people are too focused on the balance of 1v1. EDIT:Any time something is nerfed in WvW it is because it effects large scale combat. Whether that means something that has too great of an impact or something that requires a small zerg to kill it. A glass Soulbeast dies if you spit in it's general direction and it's only an issue for people it's targeting. 1v1 balance is irrelevant and anyone who's asking for balance in that area needs to let it go and accept that WvW is not the place for this. Be with friends, be with a zerg or be good at surviving alone, what ever that means for you to achieve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex.3516 Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:Ranger has had the LEAST amount of love from the Devs when it comes to WvW. Druid used to have a spot in Zergs and then Firebrand came along and outperformed it to the point of non existence. Again I tell you, Ranger is fine where it is at. It finally has a place in WvW after EVERYBODY and their mother's dog yelling at people for playing a Ranger in WvW. I can't tell you how many tells I got telling me to play a Thief or Engineer instead of Ranger as they contributed more than Ranger did. Ranger FINALLY has a role in WvW again, that of a Roamer and somewhat of a counter to Thief and Mesmer. Now you want to nerf them into oblivion once again so that they have no spot. If you don't like taking a ton of damage then start adding some armor into your build. Ranger has so much hate against it with Invuln's, Reflects, and Evades it's not even funny. To top it off we don't really even have a counter to Stealth. Sic' Em can reveal, but then DE just counters that reveal and goes right back into Stealth. We have to be able to target something to hit it, and if someone Stealths then we lose target. As so many have said and you continue to ignore, stop playing Glass Zerker Thief build so you can 1 shot people from behind while in Stealth and you won't die. Ranger is easy to counter, 1 shot Stealth Thief not so much.Do I really need to explain this further? All right. Let me break this down for you.The class does not matter. Try to engage enough with me to take your head out of that space. I could have been any "glass" class. Backline Ele, Backline Rev, anything.This has NOTHING to do with how strong or weak Thief is, nor the way I play. All it has to do with, is how much damage a Ranger can deal from safe distance to a class that does not primarily use toughness. Ele, Thief, Guardian, arguably even Revenant tend to favour vitality over toughness. Because of the excruciating condi meta we are also facing at this time. Power classes can one shot, but Scourges, Burn Firebrands, Condi Mesmers, Condi Thieves, even Condi Core Necro (which is rising from the ashes) are a prevalent thing in WvW.And, by the way, as I have already mentioned above, I run Sword/Pistol DareDevil. Which has even less one shot capability than staff five spamming Thieves. But, again, that doesn't matter. My deepest condolences to you along with all other players who have suffered the meta changes, such as tempest, bunker scrapper, and other healing classes due to firebrand being such a jack of all trades. That is a story for another post that needs looked into for the sake of diversity in our zergs. But, at the end of the day, no matter what you say my point still clearly stands. I'm not suddenly some martyr required to scream and shout about every "wrong" happening in WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex.3516 Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:"Sic' Em!" could stand to receive a nerf, at least for the Ranger specifically and included while merged, but not for the pet.As a long time glass Ranger, I have a few things to say though.The unblockable that Unstoppable Union provides (and to a lesser extend Signet of the Hunt) is incredibly necessary in the current state of the game. There are so many reflects and projectile destruction that it's entirely possible to have 90% of your attacks negated in medium/large scale fights. If you're floating around the fringe of a zerg trying to pick off backliners or other squishy players and you're not using unblockables believe me, it is a huge loss in potential lethality.For the longest time I was playing core Ranger because I felt having Skirmishing to buff my critical chance as well as Quick Draw to increase both my offensive and defensive potential was more valuable than the extra damage that Soulbeast offers. Unfortunately that is not the case. The unblockables and pet merged skills are incredibly valuable whether you're full glass, hybrid or boon-centric.If you're being hit for that much with an auto attack then the Ranger is full glass as well. I've hit people with similar numbers many times but, it requires a bit of preparation (albeit not much) and your target to also be very squishy. It also means said Ranger will die to a stiff breeze. Deadeye's have the same issue but the difference between the two is that one can much more easily escape from combat undetected.I do agree that the damage Soulbeast can pump out is pretty disgusting and I wouldn't be against some shaves. It's extremely easy to play and requires very little timing or effort to achieve results. That said, these are two classes that now excel at an important role in WvW and I'd hate to see either of them gutted because some people are too focused on the balance of 1v1. I appreciate your insight, and I agree with what you said. Considering Death's Judgement for Deadeye is innately unblockable, Ranger definitely requires similar treatment or classes like Warrior will simply destroy it. Ranger always had a specific niche that, outside Druid's healing, was difficult to place. And while it is great that Soul Beast has a place among the big dominating roaming specialisations of WvW, I believe all of them need toning down. Even after the Druid nerfs, too, if you are a capable player, you are practically unstoppable. But the same could be said of almost any class. It's simply finding that balance that's difficult, and why I feel reporting these things is important. Thank you for bringing analysis and logic to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riko.9214 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 @Turk.5460 said:@Riko.9214 said:They indeed do a bit too much for an attack that require 0 preparation and spends 0 resources. There are undoubtedly things that hit harder but those require preparation/resources unlike autos from extreme range.However that is unlikely A-net will do anything about it. It is one of their hand-holding classes (if not the most hand-holding of all of them) and it has to give reasonable results with low effort. The preparation is the modifiers and Sic Em and Beast Mode (although certainly not a lot of prep...). What makes it worse is these attacks hit from almost 2k range on flat ground, and even further than 2k on even slightly elevated terrain.You sure though? I mean by going all offence in traits they hit up to 15 K per auto or so as it was mentioned. With 7K they can as well go almost full-defence (trait-wise of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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