Dagger buff/rework ideas

DEATHsCLAW.1978 · November 2, 2018

with the reaper elite spec necro got GS, a melee cleave weapon, which is outperforming Dagger in about every scenario.

but if dagger was the superior dueling option, it would at least have a niche role in pvp/wvw.

I had an idea last night:what if we add a follow up attack to dark path (dark strike), which is usable for 6s after hitting dark path and also expires if enemy breaks its range treshold:

dark strike:teleport to your target, chill (3s) and daze it (1s) and gain quickness (3s) if you hitcasttime: 1/4srange: 1200damage: ~50% of gravdigger dmg

and then of course we need a huge dps boost to dagger auto or dagger#2

lemme know what u think and add other ideas

Sigmoid.7082 · November 2, 2018

Dagger doesn't need a rework it's pretty good as is. If it were to get a boost it wouldn't be anything like what you posted.

All it would need is tweeks like reductions in aftercast, with reduction in LF gain, on the auto and maybe change 3 to have a count of 2.

Nimon.7840 · November 2, 2018

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Dagger doesn't need a rework it's pretty good as is. If it were to get a boost it wouldn't be anything like what you posted.
All it would need is tweeks like reductions in aftercast, with reduction in LF gain, on the auto and maybe change 3 to have a count of 2.

I wouldn't say it's pretty good. It's decent.But it could be better.The problem right now is mainly autoattack-chain

Maybe give it allies might on 3rd attack. Or just make it hit harder/ less aftercast.In PvP scenario you almost can't use autoattacks to fight.Other professions will just punish you really hard if you stay in their face, just autoattacking.

Also I'd like to see a change to dagger 2.Like: if you siphon life while being at 100% health, heals allies for 50% of the siphoned amount.

Teratus.2859 · November 2, 2018

Tbh the only change I want to see on dagger is to restore the number of targets back to 3 in the PvE auto chain.

Only builds I use dagger on are running more tanky stats anyway so it's not so much about overall damage its more about just contributing more in things like fractals and dungeons when there are swarms of enemies to deal with.Dagger 2 is my dedicated healing skill in some builds so I run it mostly for that, be nice if if would be just a tad more useful on a mob zerg.

narcx.3570 · November 2, 2018

@"DEATHsCLAW.1978" said:with the reaper elite spec necro got GS, a melee cleave weapon, which is outperforming Dagger in about every scenario....and then of course we need a huge dps boost to dagger auto or dagger#2lemme know what u think and add other ideas

Dagger's currently the weapon with the most life-force generation, so it has a solid home with support scourge (and I guess other off-meta builds that people are rocking which revolve around spamming shroud skills as much as possible.) That's at least something...

The thing with buffing dagger's AA chain tho is that you'd have to make it so strong that it replaces Deathshroud's AA-chain plus all of the other passive stat bonuses you receive while in shroud... And if you did that, we'd be right back to where Reaper was a year and a half ago where the rotation was just Dagger auto-attack while using shroud 4 off cooldown, and then swap to Greatsword and spam Gravedigger after 50%. (And nobody wants a return to that life.)

Because when you break it down, there's not really room for another weapon in the Reaper rotation... You have to keep GS, since Gravedigger is your #1 damage source (and also all the edge lord necro's would riot if they couldn't use twilight anymore.) So between your time spent in Shroud and spent in GS, there's not really room for another aa chain--axe fills the 2nd weapon void perfectly by being able to sandwich your shroud with Ghastly Claws, which is a nice single cast damage skill. There might be a home for dagger in this role, if you were to mega buff 2 or 3, but it would have to be quite a buff, since GC--and the way it scales multiplicatively with vulnerability--is a huge source of damage (your 2nd most damaging skill.) I also don't think anet would want to balance axe out of use since they've put so much effort into gradually buffing it to be useful over the course of the past two years.

I do like your idea about giving dagger some mobility for PvP, since dagger's trait in blood historically sort of made it necro's "mobility weapon." But the problem is that a lack of mobility is supposed to be Necro's weakness... They can take some utility skills to help with this, but they have large cool downs and take up a precious utility slot. Giving scourges/reapers a "free" low-cooldown teleport could have a huge effect on balance by effectively erasing the one way to deal with them. It'd be sort of like giving thiefs an invulnerability skill or heralds a bunch of condi-cleanse.

DEATHsCLAW.1978 · November 2, 2018

@"narcx.3570" said:...Because when you break it down, there's not really room for another weapon in the Reaper rotation......I do like your idea about giving dagger some mobility for PvP, since dagger's trait in blood historically sort of made it necro's "mobility weapon." But the problem is that a lack of mobility is supposed to be Necro's weakness... They can take some utility skills to help with this, but they have large cool downs and take up a precious utility slot. Giving scourges/reapers a "free" low-cooldown teleport could have a huge effect on balance by effectively erasing the one way to deal with them. It'd be sort of like giving thiefs an invulnerability skill or heralds a bunch of condi-cleanse.

thiefs got daggerstorm haha.. (evade no invul i know but still..)

I agree with you that GS is and should be the far better pve option. although I said at beginning the role dagger could potentially fit was a duel weapon which is more pvp/wvw oriented.

the teleport I'm suggesting is not free, it requires landing dark path.. and by slotting dagger reaper needs to replace either GS (-> less groupfight potential) or axe (->no range option), both drawbacks justify an additional gapcloser in my opinionfor scourge or core nec dagger is the only close range weapon anyways and it has no other gapcloser available on weapon slots so I dont really see a big problem there..

Teratus.2859 · November 2, 2018

I'm not so sure a teleport would be best in all honesty.

When it comes to mobility I've always seen Necromancer as more of a lock down the enemy type of class over the more Mesmer, thief kind of dash and tp chasing down enemies.Maybe instead of a teleport it would fit better if a follow up strike inflicted cripple or slow.. or allowed the necro to steal a boon with priority to swiftness or superspeed.

ZDragon.3046 · November 2, 2018

All dagger needsMain hand

considerably reduce after cast from 2nd and 3rd auto chain
Possibly add life steal to 2nd or 3rd auto chain or increase raw damage of the 2nd and 3rd chain under a specific condition being met (likely if the enemy is bleeding vs if you are bleeing)
change dagger skill 3 from a boon convert tool to an execution style skill making it deal considerably more damage on hit based on your foes hp.

KrHome.1920 · November 2, 2018

Dagger only needs number tweaks and that seems what ANet is planning for the weapon as it got several number tweaks in the recent balance patches. I don't think we will see a rework because they already put a lot of balancing effort in that weapon. I think before they touch dagger mechanics they will rework focus 4 first.

The autoattack is too weak. That's the main issue. Skill 2 and 3 are decent now after they got buffed hard.

+20% damage on the autoattack would improve mh-dagger a lot. This sounds unspectacular, but it is exactly what I am missing after hundreds of hours in trying to find a viable mh-dagger build. The melee damage is just too low. ANet should not just add a flat 20% but instead reduce the aftercast to thief dagger level and add +10% raw damage.

Swadow.6213 · November 2, 2018

What dagger needs is more utility and the dumb nerf to life siphon that made it require full line of sight while channeling. It should be channelable while not looking at the target. Auto attack should have some kind of sustain attached to it other than just life force and I think life siphon should share the heal to allies

Lahmia.2193 · November 2, 2018

Auto needs more damage or something like life stealing on 2nd and 3rd chain.Life siphon needs the no LoS required to be restored and to share healing with allies (possibly via trait or baseline).Dark Pact is perfect as it is (my favourite skill in gw2 no less).

DEATHsCLAW.1978 · November 2, 2018

@Swadow.6213 said:What dagger needs is more utility and the dumb nerf to life siphon that made it require full line of sight while channeling. It should be channelable while not looking at the target. Auto attack should have some kind of sustain attached to it other than just life force and I think life siphon should share the heal to allies

yes true channeling life siphon while creating distance was so nice in dueling scenarios I miss that a lot

but do some of you guys really think a flat number increase can make dagger viable for exchanging blows in melee combat in pvp/wvw? I dont really think so.. unless they give dagger the by far hightest dps autochain in the game.. what will never happen.

in my opinion dagger needs either a hard hitting skill, a gapclose, an interrupt, weakness application, protection or quickness application to buff itself

at best some combination of the things mentioned above bc autoattacking alone wont get you far in this powercreeped meta

KrHome.1920 · November 4, 2018

The new Dagger 2 mechanic is an improvement to my playstyle. I usually chain it with Axe 2. this combo baits two dodges or otherwise is devastating. In theory it can be interrupted easily, but using it in the right moment is what I would call skillful play. It's definitely possible.

Dagger 3 is a great opening skill for a shroud combo esp. when Reaper's Onslaught is traited. For a lot of builds this combo is a guaranteed shutdown.

Talking about Reaper's Onslaught: I think Dagger 2 is now a good alternative to Blighter's Boon (mainly thanks to the reduced cast time). I never felt comfortable without Blighter's Boon as Consume Conditions has an awful long cooldown and the healing of Soul Eater is just poor.

These are pretty much the reasons why I think a damage buff + aftercast reduction to the autoattack is all MH-Dagger needs - maybe also a small life steal (500hp at base or so) on Auto 3 for Blood Magic synergy.

Kiroshima.8497 · November 5, 2018

Dagger auto needs life force on the first hit, just move some from the final part of the chain.Then, remove the silly bleed interactions on Dagger 2, and the self bleed on Dagger 3.

Dagger 2 needs to grant life force per tick, with a low start but increasing over the full channel.Dagger 3 is mostly fine. Personally, instead of corrupting, it should just remove boons and give you health/life force per boon removed (if the target has no boons, inflict bleeding on them).Dagger 4 needs to be like Torch 4, instead of a projectile. This swarm is just so inconsistent in performance it's not even funny, despite the fact that it can remove up to like 9 conditions on you. IF IT MUST remain a projectile, it needs the option to bounce to you for some kind of benefit similar to Focus 4.Dagger 5 doesn't really match with the rest of dagger's kit, but it works fine. It's kinda boring but I dunno how to change it. I guess the better thing to do would be to give it a blood magic effect from GW1 or something that works with dagger as a whole. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blood_Magic . Just pick one that isn't already in the game I guess? xD

Anchoku.8142 · November 6, 2018

Dagger's loss of importance stems from greatsword's overlap as a short range power weapon and the buffs to axe as a ranged power weapon.

Further developing MH dagger into a face-tanking sustain weapon by allowing Life Siphon to also heal one other ally in melee would be nice.

ZDragon.3046 · November 6, 2018

@Anchoku.8142 said:Dagger's loss of importance stems from greatsword's overlap as a short range power weapon and the buffs to axe as a ranged power weapon.
Further developing MH dagger into a face-tanking sustain weapon by allowing Life Siphon to also heal one other ally in melee would be nice.

Thats nice but it wont make people value dagger anymore or stop the complaints about its damage being so low. Honestly dropping a single drop of support into the weapon wont be a proper fix and will likely cause dagger to lose even more in other areas without providing any personal benefit in terms of healing or damage. Dagger becomes weaker when used alone and not something particularly needed or wanted when in a group.

Once again this is not the place to try and throw support into the kit.

RisenHowl.2419 · November 6, 2018

-Drop the on bleed effects and self bleed

-have each AA grant LF

-Let dagger2 grant 1% LF per tick or allow it to heal around the necro 240 radius

-speed the animation up on 5, it takes so long to hit that it's impossible to land on a moving target reliably

Any or all of those. No one has used dagger MH or OH seriously in years because it's slow and low damage that is easily kited

Anchoku.8142 · November 7, 2018

MH dagger needs some sort of purpose. It has been losing importance. It should have dps higher than greatsword because of its lower cleave count and, as a short range weapon, sustain and control effects are crucial.

RisenHowl.2419 · November 7, 2018

Every other class with mh dagger has a leap on the weapon, ele even has two and an immobilize.

Necros get a 1s cast time immobilize that causes self bleeding?

Why?

Teratus.2859 · November 7, 2018

@"Kiroshima.8497" said:Dagger auto needs life force on the first hit, just move some from the final part of the chain.Then, remove the silly bleed interactions on Dagger 2, and the self bleed on Dagger 3.
Dagger 2 needs to grant life force per tick, with a low start but increasing over the full channel.Dagger 3 is mostly fine. Personally, instead of corrupting, it should just remove boons and give you health/life force per boon removed (if the target has no boons, inflict bleeding on them).Dagger 4 needs to be like Torch 4, instead of a projectile. This swarm is just so inconsistent in performance it's not even funny, despite the fact that it can remove up to like 9 conditions on you. IF IT MUST remain a projectile, it needs the option to bounce to you for some kind of benefit similar to Focus 4.Dagger 5 doesn't really match with the rest of dagger's kit, but it works fine. It's kinda boring but I dunno how to change it. I guess the better thing to do would be to give it a blood magic effect from GW1 or something that works with dagger as a whole. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blood_Magic . Just pick one that isn't already in the game I guess? xD

Depends really for Dagger 5.. I use offhand Dagger exclusively as a condi weapon on Necro so it works out ok for me.the days of the Dagger Dagger Necro are long gone for me lol

Teratus.2859 · November 7, 2018

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Every other class with mh dagger has a leap on the weapon, ele even has two and an immobilize.
Necros get a 1s cast time immobilize that causes self bleeding?
Why?

To power up Life Siphon, self bleeding with Dagger 3 results in 20% more dmg and healing from Dagger 2.It also converts 2 boons into conditions which can be nice in some of the newer content where enemies tend to self buff a lot.

Necro has always had a self sacrifice element to it even going back to Gw1 where some skills require a health sacrifice.The corruption skills and traits are another good example, self casting condies to boost consume conditions or to transfer to enemies.

RisenHowl.2419 · November 7, 2018

@Teratus.2859 said:
@RisenHowl.2419 said:Every other class with mh dagger has a leap on the weapon, ele even has two and an immobilize.
Necros get a 1s cast time immobilize that causes self bleeding?
Why?

To power up Life Siphon, self bleeding with Dagger 3 results in 20% more dmg and healing from Dagger 2.It also converts 2 boons into conditions which can be nice in some of the newer content where enemies tend to self buff a lot.

Necro has always had a self sacrifice element to it even going back to Gw1 where some skills require a health sacrifice.The corruption skills and traits are another good example, self casting condies to boost consume conditions or to transfer to enemies.

The immobilize is on a higher cd and cast time than the ele equivalent , and has no leap attached.

So where's the tradeoff on Necro dagger? It's worse in every way, and causes you to bleed. If you're on a condition build to make use of the boon corrupt, the bleeding hurts even more than you gain in healing on dagger 2 @.@

Even if you transfer the bleed the damage is very subpar from a pve standpoint, and not useful from a pvp standpoint as it burns your condition clear

Teratus.2859 · November 7, 2018

@RisenHowl.2419 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:
@RisenHowl.2419 said:Every other class with mh dagger has a leap on the weapon, ele even has two and an immobilize.
Necros get a 1s cast time immobilize that causes self bleeding?
Why?

To power up Life Siphon, self bleeding with Dagger 3 results in 20% more dmg and healing from Dagger 2.It also converts 2 boons into conditions which can be nice in some of the newer content where enemies tend to self buff a lot.

Necro has always had a self sacrifice element to it even going back to Gw1 where some skills require a health sacrifice.The corruption skills and traits are another good example, self casting condies to boost consume conditions or to transfer to enemies.

The immobilize is on a higher cd and cast time than the ele equivalent , and has no leap attached.

So where's the tradeoff on Necro dagger? It's worse in every way, and causes you to bleed. If you're on a condition build to make use of the boon corrupt, the bleeding hurts even more than you gain in healing on dagger 2 @.@

Even if you transfer the bleed the damage is very subpar from a pve standpoint, and not useful from a pvp standpoint as it burns your condition clear

If you're on a condi build I don't see why you'd be running main hand dagger.. unless you were running a hybrid but even then not the best weapon choice imo.For boon corrupt you're better off with Corrupt Boon which corrupts more boons than dagger 3 does, has double the range, casts faster and has 2 uses.And you can transfer the self poison for condi dmg and heal penalty.Main Hand dagger just isn't useful for condi or hybrid builds imo.

RisenHowl.2419 · November 7, 2018

@Teratus.2859 said:
@RisenHowl.2419 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:
@RisenHowl.2419 said:Every other class with mh dagger has a leap on the weapon, ele even has two and an immobilize.
Necros get a 1s cast time immobilize that causes self bleeding?
Why?

To power up Life Siphon, self bleeding with Dagger 3 results in 20% more dmg and healing from Dagger 2.It also converts 2 boons into conditions which can be nice in some of the newer content where enemies tend to self buff a lot.

Necro has always had a self sacrifice element to it even going back to Gw1 where some skills require a health sacrifice.The corruption skills and traits are another good example, self casting condies to boost consume conditions or to transfer to enemies.

The immobilize is on a higher cd and cast time than the ele equivalent , and has no leap attached.

So where's the tradeoff on Necro dagger? It's worse in every way, and causes you to bleed. If you're on a condition build to make use of the boon corrupt, the bleeding hurts even more than you gain in healing on dagger 2 @.@

Even if you transfer the bleed the damage is very subpar from a pve standpoint, and not useful from a pvp standpoint as it burns your condition clear

If you're on a condi build I don't see why you'd be running main hand dagger.. unless you were running a hybrid but even then not the best weapon choice imo.For boon corrupt you're better off with Corrupt Boon which corrupts more boons than dagger 3 does, has double the range, casts faster and has 2 uses.And you can transfer the self poison for condi dmg and heal penalty.Main Hand dagger just isn't useful for condi or hybrid builds imo.

It isn't useful for power builds either, the damage is low, short range, and slow. I mentioned condi builds because they're the only ones who could turn the self bleed into a positive, for power builds its just stupid as it offers no advantage to applying self bleed. The skill is worse across the board than the other class' dagger gap closers

Necro has much better ways to access boon corrupt than wasting a utility slot on corrupt boon man

Teratus.2859 · November 7, 2018

@RisenHowl.2419 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:
@RisenHowl.2419 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:
@RisenHowl.2419 said:Every other class with mh dagger has a leap on the weapon, ele even has two and an immobilize.
Necros get a 1s cast time immobilize that causes self bleeding?
Why?