Should the amount of Condis/Boons per class be normalized?

[DonArkanio.6419]

Hey there!I was thinking more and more about the amount of effects we have in game and it's huge. Now don't get me wrong, I love that we have many to choose from. For me, the problem lies in the amount of conditions and boons each class has access too. This leads to some serious issues and very flat gameplay mechanics.Let's take for example "Shake it off!" (<-Warrior's Shout) and "Soothing Stone" (<- Revenant's Jalis' Heal)[i WILL SKIP SOME CHANGES FOR THE SAKE OF BREVITY]

CONDITIONS

Now, I'll provide some examples of adding conditions to class (or its weapons) in order to make it functional. It's because other classes already had so many conditions (or condi cleanse) that some other felt underwhelming because of it. So, let's add some condis, shall we?

Temporal Rift (Revenant Axe 5 Skill):

• 2015 - Inflicts 3 stacks of Torment
• 2017 - (add.) Inflicts 3 stacks of Confusion
• Further changes on Confusion inflicted by this skill

Signet of Shadows (Thief's Utility Skill):

• 2012 - On use inflicts 5s of Blindness to nearby enemies
• 2017 - (add.) Inflicts Weakness and 10 stacks of Vulnerability

Ghastly Breach (Scourge's Skill):

• (Under specific circumstanecs) Inflicts: Torment, Cripple, Burning, Slow and Might

Voice of Truth (Firebrand's Skill):

• Inflicts Vulnerability, Immobilize, Weakness and Blindness

Echo of Truth (Firebrand's Skill):

• Inflicts Cripple, Weakness and Blindness

Let's take for example "Shake it off!" (<-Warrior's Shout) and "Soothing Stone" (<- Revenant's Jalis' Heal).The need of flat-condi removal for the sake of "healthy" gameplay.

"Shake it off!":

• 2012 - Breaks stun,
• 2013 - (add.) Removes 2 conditions
• March 2018 - Removes 3 conditions in PvP/WvW
• July 2018 - Removes 6 conditions (2 charges (1 per 50s) in PvP WvW

"Soothing Stone":

• 2015 - Removes 3 conditions, grants 2s Retaliation for each condition removed <---- Kind of a fun mechanic
• 2018 - Removes 5 conditions (no longer split between game-modes) + 5 flat seconds of Retaliation <------ Flat gameplay

What I mean here is that these 2 skills had to adapt to the amount of conditions applied by other classes (Or themselves). Ammunition mechanic is a great idea but here, we can see that it's used to flat-cleanse a packet of condis that somoene inflicted.

BOONS

While more and more conditions are added to each classes there has to be some counterplay to it. So, what happens here is that we have tons of boons application and boon removal.

The need of boon application in order to counter the amount of conditions other apply is increasing.

Guardian:

• Hallowed Ground - applies Stability
• Contemplation of Purity - converts conditions into Boons
• "Hold the Line!" - applies Protection and Regeneration
• "Retreat!" - applies Aegis and Swiftness
• "Save Yourselves!" - grants Fury, Might, Protection, Regeneration, Resistance, Retaliation, Swiftness and Vigor
• "Stand Your Ground!" - grants Stability and Retaliation*Firebrand:
• Azure Sun - grants Vigor, Regeneration and Swiftness

Ranger (Soulbeast):Dolyak Stance (6s): Prevent movement-impeding conditions from being inflicted on you.

• grants Retaliation and Stability
• removes Immobilize, Chill, Cripple
• Breaks StunMoa Stance: Increase the duration of boons by 66%
• grants Protection, Swiftness, Fury and Regeneration

This is the kind of mechanic that makes sense in terms of skill usage but still - there are tools designed specifically for boon removal because sometiems there is no way to get through the number of boons some classes have. I'm not trying to hate on any class, just trying to make a point that this is what happens when we have so much stuff going on in single skills.

Revenant:

• Banish Enchantment - removes 2 boons from your target and applies Confusion

This is the amount of buffs and conditions that some classes have. What I'd love to know is - would you like this amount to be normalized per class? Do you think that the Condition Application/Removal and Boon Application/Removal mechanics should be updated or reworked? Share your thoughts!Thanks for your time :)

[ChillyKoti.1928]

I'll say they need to reduce boons/condition/Boon Removal and Condiyion Removal. Or maybe a big overhaul. Right now, everyone has tons of Cc, tons of boons, tons of.... Just tons if everything. lol.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't get the problem trying to solved. "flat gameplay mechanics" is pretty vague.

I don't see a problem with the variation that classes have for boons/condition application. Volume might be a concern; boons become pretty trivial if you can get them frequently and easily.

[DonArkanio.6419]

@"Obtena.7952" said:I don't get the problem trying to solved. "flat gameplay mechanics" is pretty vague.

I don't see a problem with the variation that classes have for boons/condition application. Volume might be a concern; boons become pretty trivial if you can get them frequently and easily.

What I meant by saying "flat gameplay mechanincs" are the skills that Remove/Apply huge amount of Conditions/Boons with just one click of a button. I like the concept of getting something "per condition/boon" removed or applied and I think this is a good way to go.

[Obtena.7952]

I would worry a bit about that concept ... you don't want to turn this game into micromanaging boons/conditions. Sure, it could be more interesting to do so from a gameplay perspective, but the complexity might be overwhelming or add little.

[DonArkanio.6419]

@Obtena.7952 said:I would worry a bit about that concept ... you don't want to turn this game into micromanaging boons/conditions. Sure, it could be more interesting to do so from a gameplay perspective, but the complexity might be overwhelming or add little.

I'm mostly interested in reducing the amount of stuff packed in single skills. But I get what you mean - we don't want to make it harder.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Surprised you didn't even mention Chrono or Mirage.

[starlinvf.1358]

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:I don't get the problem trying to solved. "flat gameplay mechanics" is pretty vague.

I don't see a problem with the variation that classes have for boons/condition application. Volume might be a concern; boons become pretty trivial if you can get them frequently and easily.

What I meant by saying "flat gameplay mechanincs" are the skills that Remove/Apply huge amount of Conditions/Boons with just one click of a button. I like the concept of getting something "per condition/boon" removed or applied and I think this is a good way to go.

That wouldn't work without first normalizing every boon and condition. The "Number" of stacks or types that can be applied, made equal, would only serve to widen the gap between certain powerful boons and conditions against the weaker ones. For instance, 5 stacks of bleeding is trivial, but 5 stacks of burning is substantial. 5 seconds of both alacrity and quickness is much stronger then 5 seconds of aegis and regeneration.

Its this disparity between the types that makes it difficult to balance in practice, but is otherwise essential to creating differences in the classes, without resorting to completely bespoke effects and mechanics.

Whats really broken about the system is how the game design actively focuses on specific design approaches, which only value certain strategies, for different content blocks. How PvE focuses entirely on DPS output, while allowing all incoming threats to be mitigated almost entirely through dodging or certain effects (Raids being the worst offender, despite having the most potential to demand builds be tailored to fights). PvP and WvW on the other hand reward more balanced (as in covers the most bases) builds and team comps, but each suffers from design problem in how they scale with group size. This goes hand in hand with the idea of mechanical advantages, and the level of inconsistency they can bring to a match up.

Ultimately the biggest underlying problem is how the game is heavily split between its mechanically focused components, and its statistically focused ones. They did this because they wanted something easy to trade off for build diversity... ie sacrificing damage for support or defense effects. However, when they designed the Open world, dungeons and story content, the AI's predictable behavior allowed active defense to completely negate incoming threat.... but the Mobs were rarely given enough of the right effects to threaten that. So what we ended up with is mobs which have a lopsided statistical advantage, while the player has a lopsided mechanical advantage. Its this set up that pushed players into the Zerker meta prior to HOT, as they needed to lower the TTK as much as possible to make the most out of their limited, but powerful active defense abilities.

However, when that advantage is challenged (as was the case with both Feral and Elite Mordrem), players have a very hard time compensating against them. This is why Especs are practically mandatory for HOT, because of who much better access to AOE and Control effects they have. Prior to HOT, few Enemies had any particularly strong combinations of control effects, and tended to focus mostly on high damage to be a threat. In HOT, enemy groups were explicitly designed around the idea of scaling by group composition. So while individually they are easy to deal with, when paired grouped up, or paired with certain complimenting enemies, they become vastly more dangerous. Unfortunately this was meant to work in tandem with Especs, eventually giving players an even bigger mechanical advantage that nullifies any gap that existed before. Layered on top of that is more statistical gains by way of additional damage multipliers meant to match against late game content (TD/DS/Raids) and they're use of numerical scaling (both in stats and enemy count) to act as difficulty.

The result of all of this has become a DPS arms race across all areas of the game. Where only as much skills as absolutely needed to cover the mechanical advantage is taken, and all remaining resources focused into increasing ideal damage output. Simply put.... damage is king. And until you change that paradigm, all other "problems" the game runs into converges on this singular concept. Even your suggestion is trying to normalize the damage output of all builds, thinking this type of "balance" will somehow fix the problems. But all it would accomplish is shift the focus to mechanical advantages that allow them to deliver or mitigate that damage.

While this would had been more interesting like it was in GW1, that game also had an diminishing growth curve and smaller magnitudes of numbers to play on. Narrowing the range of damage and HP pools meant a smaller disparity between skills with high investment verses low investment; while the decreasing return on investment for attribute points spent made it beneficial to round out your characters a bit, despite the more ridge class design. GW2's design directly rewards statistical gains by way of compound multiplicative growth, which means its far more beneficial to focus everything into a sub-set of complimenting stats, and covering down deficiency through other methods. Which is ironic, since this game was supposed to better support hybrid builds by way of a set of universal effects, and work under the idea of cumulative power of a build or group comp.

Theres really no "one" thing you can change in this system to resolve the issue, as the problem is systemic to allow the buildcraft to mesh with the encounter design. If we want things to be different, we need the PvE Encounters to better reflect PvP combat sensibilities. Which in turn will de-emphasize raw damage output as being the optimal PvE solution, and give more room for designing mobs with more mechanically oriented vulnerabilities and counter strategies. But thats too tall an order this late into the game's life cycle..... and most of this expectation has been shifted off to GW3, and the hope by them the MMO market will trend even further into action combat systems, and less reliance on numerical padding to do the work for them. As far ahead of the curve GW2 has is on this, its undeniably hamstrung by its decision to go with conventional stat systems, and compounded the problem by trying to balance around damage.

[MyPuppy.8970]

Some classes can't do anything without Boon, not even survive. Thus why ele was originaly a mini boon machine before everyone could perma everything.

[FaboBabo.3581]

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Surprised you didn't even mention Chrono or Mirage.

Did u read the text?

[reikken.4961]

Everything in this game is excessive. Too many boons, too much boon strip, too many conditions, too many condition cleanses, too much CC, too many stun breaks, too much burst damage, too many evades, blocks, and invulns, too much healing. Also too much visual clutter.

It's almost a good game. It's so close to greatness. But this arms race needs to be undone for it to really be good.

[DonArkanio.6419]

@reikken.4961 said:Everything in this game is excessive. Too many boons, too much boon strip, too many conditions, too many condition cleanses, too much CC, too many stun breaks, too much burst damage, too many evades, blocks, and invulns, too much healing. Also too much visual clutter.

It's almost a good game. It's so close to greatness. But this arms race needs to be undone for it to really be good.

That's what I'm thinking. In my opinion the whole concept of boons, conditions, cleanses and CCs should be simplified and reduced for the sake of clarity and overall gameplay.

[DonArkanio.6419]

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Some classes can't do anything without Boon, not even survive. Thus why ele was originaly a mini boon machine before everyone could perma everything.

True, but the solution to that should be improving the class itself, not loading it with boons which results other classes having to have boon-stripping. I think that clarity and general simplicity of debuff mechanics is key to healthy gameplay. Especially in PvP.As mentioned above - GW2 mechanics are great in theory and practice but, in my opinion, they need simplified.

[RedShark.9548]

i liked the balancing pre hot ALOT. boons werent thrown around left and right, you actually had to think about how to get them and conditions werent much of an issue (i hate conditions, i wouldnt care if they were gone completely, i despise the gameplay they enforce in pvp/wvw)

less dmg thrown around overall, blasting waterfields for example actually meant something. now its just mindless spamming.

im mostly talking about wvw.

[DonArkanio.6419]

@RedShark.9548 said:i liked the balancing pre hot ALOT. boons werent thrown around left and right, you actually had to think about how to get them and conditions werent much of an issue (i hate conditions, i wouldnt care if they were gone completely, i despise the gameplay they enforce in pvp/wvw)

less dmg thrown around overall, blasting waterfields for example actually meant something. now its just mindless spamming.

im mostly talking about wvw.

I'm happy that people are taking about these issues in various game-modes.I too think that pre-HoT situation was kind of nice for overall gameplay, but not specifically for condis. They didn't really exist back then and are a serious thing now.I'm also a fan of planning before going into the fight. Since all runes got updated yesterday, many got some Fury boons removed from them which seems nice to me. They want classes that have access to Fury to actually have adventage specifically in that aspect over classes that don't. That is a great concept for me and this is a way to go for me.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Surprised you didn't even mention Chrono or Mirage.

Did u read the text?

Yeah, neither are mentioned. Didn't you read it?