Improving 2 Way Communication with Balance Team Devs

MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 · November 3, 2018

With regards to QoL changes and even bigger systemic changes like the Alliance system, there seems to be better 2 way communication occurring between those teams and the community. I remember at one point especially with regards to QoL they even had polls for people to vote on what they wanted the team to work, what concerns they had etc.

I tend to see many polls, posts and threads about balance, but hardly ever see that kind of 2 way communication occurring between the community and the balance team devs. I realize that the devs play the game but so does the community at large. People are obviously making these threads because they have concerns and ideas about how to fix those problems. Every so often we get these balance patches that seem to be these changes that no one asked for or that people dont know why they changed it, only to have it randomly answered in a thread.

Has Gaile the communications manager and anyone within the balance team sat down to try and think of some ideas to improve this 2 way communication? Just floating around some ideas, could there be biweekly or monthly polls/community events where people are asked to vote on their concerns with regards to balance whether it be too much damage, or too much turtling, too much dodge or too much stealth, or anything along those lines. Could the balance team developers reply to those polls and go ok, we will work on those concerns first and foremost, talk about those ideas in an open setting and receive feedback as they test out those possible solutions?

Again the keyword being 2 way communication, its getting feedback from the community, then implementing the change, then getting more feedback etc. You are actively engaging the concerns of the community, you are responding by saying we hear you, here is what we think and here is what we are trying, what do you think? What worries me is that a small group of people can keep making balance changes but without feedback from the community that plays and supports the game, you are going to keep losing support slowly but surely over time as people move on. But if you can actively engage that community, provide that feedback, show them that you are working on their concerns, I imagine they will appreciate it.

Just my 2 cents!

JoEWas.1409 · November 3, 2018

People have pointed out exploits for years now, some still in. ANet's answer for skill balance, go post something in class forums, the balance team monitors that more. As far as alliances, its on their terms. Should by now have come to your attention that wvw is free money for them right now when people buy gems to move. Not everybody in game farms the now inflated gold/gems value. Hence how Gaile's fastest response to a wvw post involved a money transaction for free rank that was posted by a regular.....input whatever you want here.....but quickly retracted the quick response by playing it off to being curious. It was a path down revenue. Alliances will bring less revenue to them over time because transfers during Guild Selection process is in their terms going to basically be free when worlds are randomly generated if you dont decide to transfer in the middle period.

Notice, how more focus is on the cash cow PvE side of GW2. WvWers still need to do some content and buy gemstore things if they want fashion wars. We have got our WvW sets of armor and WvW sets of weapons along with a decent but huge backpack legendary.

Jski.6180 · November 3, 2018

@"JoEWas.1409" said:People have pointed out exploits for years now, some still in. ANet's answer for skill balance, go post something in class forums, the balance team monitors that more. As far as alliances, its on their terms. Should by now have come to your attention that wvw is free money for them right now when people buy gems to move. Not everybody in game farms the now inflated gold/gems value. Hence how Gaile's fastest response to a wvw post involved a money transaction for free rank that was posted by a regular.....input whatever you want here.....but quickly retracted the quick response by playing it off to being curious. It was a path down revenue. Alliances will bring less revenue to them over time because transfers during Guild Selection process is in their terms going to basically be free when worlds are randomly generated if you dont decide to transfer in the middle period.
Notice, how more focus is on the cash cow PvE side of GW2. WvWers still need to do some content and buy gemstore things if they want fashion wars. We have got our WvW sets of armor and WvW sets of weapons along with a decent but huge backpack legendary.

But they only post on what seems to be the "liked" classes forums. You can find non balance devs having no post on the "un-liked" class forms well over a year. Its so bad that only expansion MADE the devs post on the "un-liked" class forms with no real back and forward.

There is a real problem with the devs having classes they want to work on and classes they do not and its very well know by every one in gw2. Communication and the lack of is only an symptom of it.

By asking any one to post on the class forms is to ask them to scream into the void or to simply hid there point of view. Its so bad that i could talk about a "un-liked" class here and this will be moved your only allowed to talk about the "liked" classes out side of the class forms.

GDchiaScrub.3241 · November 3, 2018

This probably comes from a good place OP, but it is impractical. You should never expect ANET to reply to every player's query. Especially the devs that are trying to implement their vision (notice I didn't say the player's vision). This isn't to say ANET doesn't read some things. Unfortunately, more often than not, forums devolve into bickering fests when it comes to 'balance.' As for suggestions for features or content, it is my opinion most of them tend to be out of scope. I don't really support two communication because I don't want the Devs wasting their time browsing the forums only to see C minus posts on average. Perhaps there are a few diamonds here and there, but that is where Gaile (or others) can sift through the mess to find them.

Similar sentiment from a designer. Although I do not like Rust myself:

"Players are useful at conveying a mood and a feeling," Newman said. "They're not game designers, their ideas generally involve making it so they can win at the game more.

"Paying $20 for a game in early access gets you a copy of the game," Newman said, echoing the sentiment of another designer, The Long Dark's Raphael van Lierop from this year's GDC. "It doesn't buy you a chair at the head of the designers' table." - Gary Newman

Gaile Gray.6029 · November 10, 2018

TO the OP: In answer to the question, yes, we definitely have discussed communications on several levels and through several means. You may be aware that in August we held an ArenaNet Forum Chat with members of the Systems Team. (WvW being part of Systems, as I'm sure you're aware.) There was a lot of activity during that chat -- I think there could have been more. So when I see "let's think of new ideas" well, the AFC is a new idea, and I'm happy to try to schedule another one in the future.

I want to point to the post above by @GDchiaScrub.3241 . There is a lot of wisdom in that post, and some interesting industry observations, too.

Oh and @"JoEWas.1409" -- got a link? I don't "try to pass things off" so I'd like to know the source of your misimpression so I can clarify whatever it was I said for you.

subversiontwo.7501 · November 10, 2018

@Gaile, that was three months ago, I'm not sure if that is an interval to be proud of. Same as how the last communicated update, here, on the one big thing almost everyone on these forums are just waiting for came five months ago.

@GD, It may be a question of different generations of players but in the MMO-genre, if you look back at the first wave of established tripple-A games, what players expected was active co-development through discourse over the company's platforms (before the days of communication platforms held by player-groups or other companies being able to compete with those held in-house). Much of the work done by communications employees back then had to do with acting a liaison between the players and the developers both by engaging in discussion and serving that information line by themselves but also by allocating employees to engage when necessary (on a daily- to weekly basis).

So while I can certainly understand that developers (or community management) can't act on every player's whim, companies within the MMO genre used to be better at engaging with the discourse the players created. It isn't that difficult to tell good quality discussion from poor quality, at least not if you engage in it on the regular. That's sifting you referred to. This new deal represented by Gary Newman's comments is actually a far more recent development where interest from publishers and investors took over the genre and the players began to be looked upon less as community and more of consumers (which is why the crowd-funding style of development took off in its stead). If you look back at that first generation again you can see why Newman's comments are nothing but utter drivel and only from a business perspective, not a development or product perspective. There are alot of big name developers at early MMO studios like Blizzard or CCP who started off as high-profile players interested in things like balance, mechanics and development.

Assuming that your community is not capable of understanding the inner workings of game design or are incapable of being objective when talking about a game they love, is both a poor disguise to hide insecurities about yourself and your product behind and a rather misanthropic view of your own players.

I'm not saying that Arenanet has to take that approach of hiring players, but they could certainly take a page off those early wave games when it comes to development (or balance) and community interaction. It's not like Reddit has to be their premier platform for community interaction, at least not for things like balance discussion because that has very little to do with PR and marketing and rather letting the community better help out with the product.

Anyway, interesting thread. Good OP.

DeceiverX.8361 · November 10, 2018

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what anyone says.

It comes down to what gets done.

We know they read these boards. Obscure topics and bug reports get responses pretty often in every subsection. It's unreasonable to suggest they spend extra time/non-working hours being forced to read what's 90% drivel due to special interest and bias, and it's unproductive to go through a big process of community interaction and so on if it takes away from man-hours improving the product itself.

I say this just because many good suggestions to endemic problems have been regurgitated over and over to the point that it's hard to believe anyone who's been here a while could have missed them by now.

The vision of the game has radically and very obviously changed, and its effects are very obviously visible on the respective game modes. I don't think it's even remotely possible that it's a lack of awareness.

At this point, just give me the specific rationale for changes in the patch notes - it demonstrates priorities and where disagreements may be, and let the changes themselves speak for what gets the attention of feedback.

JoEWas.1409 · November 10, 2018

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:
Oh and @"JoEWas.1409" -- got a link? I don't "try to pass things off" so I'd like to know the source of your misimpression so I can clarify whatever it was I said for you.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/276990

Closing of that post was stated directly from you in your last words, end of story, and we were suppose to take it on faith that the quick response to a notorious troll by you had no implications of revenue generation which was the title "Allow Us To Purchase WxP in the Gemstore". Strider's post seemed pretty heartfelt about the situation too.

Thedenofsin.7340 · November 10, 2018

I'm confused. Is the OP asking for more communication, or the ability to exert more player-based control in the decisions on development?

Thedenofsin.7340 · November 10, 2018

In my opinion, the communication meets my expectations. While it could be improved, I don't know if it would necessarily improve my enjoyment of the game. In fact, I could see how it could easily make me enjoy the game less by giving a false sense of control over the development of the game.

oOStaticOo.9467 · November 10, 2018

There is player based desire to make a game work they way they want it to work. Then there is Development and Company design and vision. Those two very rarely ever meet eye to eye. Development can try to adjust the vision of the game to better suit players in hopes of trying to retain as many players as they can, but overall their intentions and design of the game is just that. Theirs. THEY made a game and WE get to play it. If you want a game to play exactly the way you want it to play, then I suggest you code your own game and market it. Making suggestions is all fine and dandy, but don't expect them to listen to every suggestion made and implement them. After all, they had a vision in mind when they started this game as to how it will be played and where it will go. Now they are trying to keep to that vision while we keep trying to derail them from it.

Astralporing.1957 · November 10, 2018

@Thedenofsin.7340 said:In my opinion, the communication meets my expectations. While it could be improved, I don't know if it would necessarily improve my enjoyment of the game. In fact, I could see how it could easily make me enjoy the game less by giving a false sense of control over the development of the game.

Me on the other hand, i'd rather hear devs at least explain reasons behind some of their balance choices. You know, the way they did it in GW1.

It can't be that hard, can it. It's not like they don't think they have good reasons for making those changes, after all.

At this moment however, the communication is practically non-existing. We're talking to the air, and devs don't talk at all. My expectations, even at their lowest, are at least a bit higher than that.

joneirikb.7506 · November 10, 2018

Hmm, on the whole I think I'd like to see some more feedback on what ANet is working on, what they're thinking about, reasons for doing things etc. This could be as simple as a monthly list of bullet points posted on the forums. It could give us some sense of progress/flow, and act as a way to direct our discussions to those topics, so could also be a way for dev's to get feedback on a topic they're curious about etc.

I prefer that dev's have their own vision, and sticks to it. Players never know what they really want, and makes for horrible back-seat-drivers. As such, I'm not really for "co-development" with players and developers per say, but the above idea could allow dev's to ask players to discuss ideas around things they're working on, and pick up on ideas they think would fit within their vision.

Swagger.1459 · November 10, 2018

@JoEWas.1409 said:
@Gaile Gray.6029 said:
Oh and @JoEWas.1409 -- got a link? I don't "try to pass things off" so I'd like to know the source of your misimpression so I can clarify whatever it was I said for you.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/276990

Closing of that post was stated directly from you in your last words, end of story, and we were suppose to take it on faith that the quick response to a notorious troll by you had no implications of revenue generation which was the title "Allow Us To Purchase WxP in the Gemstore". Strider's post seemed pretty heartfelt about the situation too.

I don’t care if I get an infraction for what I’m going to write, but I’m going to defend Gaile here... and will gladly take one for the team.

You called the poster of that thread a “regular”. That “regular” had a clear habit of making questionable intent threads, many of which seemed like they were trying to be the “funny” guy or gal... Most readers saw it, and Gaile was nice enough to give that person the benefit of the doubt despite past posting habits...

I don’t know what your issue is, but you’re directing it at the wrong Anet employee, and wrong company for that matter... Gaile has always been the nicest, the most professional and the most helpful person on these forums... And has gone way above and beyond to bridge the gap between players and devs.

Also, Anet has been more than fair with their business model and no monthly fee to play design... Tons of free content updates, and optional and non pay to win items on the gem store... The team also gave a path to obtain all gems for FREE through gold to gem conversions... And it’s laughable if you think server transfers play some big role in monthly revenue...

Again, I don’t know what your real issue is, but you’re coming off as petty and unreasonable in this thread.

GDchiaScrub.3241 · November 10, 2018

@subversiontwo.7501 said:@GD, It may be a question of different generations of players but in the MMO-genre, if you look back at the first wave of established tripple-A games, what players expected was active co-development through discourse over the company's platforms (before the days of communication platforms held by player-groups or other companies being able to compete with those held in-house). Much of the work done by communications employees back then had to do with acting a liaison between the players and the developers both by engaging in discussion and serving that information line by themselves but also by allocating employees to engage when necessary (on a daily- to weekly basis).
So while I can certainly understand that developers (or community management) can't act on every player's whim, companies within the MMO genre used to be better at engaging with the discourse the players created. It isn't that difficult to tell good quality discussion from poor quality, at least not if you engage in it on the regular. That's sifting you referred to. This new deal represented by Gary Newman's comments is actually a far more recent development where interest from publishers and investors took over the genre and the players began to be looked upon less as community and more of consumers (which is why the crowd-funding style of development took off in its stead). If you look back at that first generation again you can see why Newman's comments are nothing but utter drivel and only from a business perspective, not a development or product perspective. There are alot of big name developers at early MMO studios like Blizzard or CCP who started off as high-profile players interested in things like balance, mechanics and development.
Assuming that your community is not capable of understanding the inner workings of game design or are incapable of being objective when talking about a game they love, is both a poor disguise to hide insecurities about yourself and your product behind and a rather misanthropic view of your own players.
I'm not saying that Arenanet has to take that approach of hiring players, but they could certainly take a page off those early wave games when it comes to development (or balance) and community interaction. It's not like Reddit has to be their premier platform for community interaction, at least not for things like balance discussion because that has very little to do with PR and marketing and rather letting the community better help out with the product.

I don't think this came across to me the way you wanted it to. Considering it felt like a rant I will hide my response within a spoiler since I feel it detracts from the spirit of the thread.

! "First wave" of triple A games is far too loose, and non-specific to me. For example, the first wave of MMOs that I had anecdotal experience with would be around Everquest(1999), while you go onto cite Blizzard (WoW presumably, 2004), and CCP (Eve Online presumably, 2003). The four year gap in between those extremes is significant for video games. In my above post I refer to things easily gathered within these very forums (although I can cite examples by request), but you mention work done on other games without citation I can reasonably follow. Furthermore, Gary Newman represents that idea of a player to developer that you mention (more so he comes from the modding scene of Half Life 2, and its Source Engine). I disagree that investors or publishers pulled his strings as you appeared to have correlated to. Next, is that crowdfunding is no more virtuous than traditional investment methods for games. Rust itself became a meme for using "Early Access" as an unorthodox method to get their game into the hands of players sooner so the developers could hear player opinions as they continue work. We can, of course, find crowdfunding for video games that have fallen through, or successfully delivered a game. We can also find examples of that spectrum for investor and publisher driven games as well. That is besides the point. We now have more options for paying the bills for potential games, and that is exciting for any game developer. It also comes with specific challenges (like appeasing with crowdfunding awards that aren't too costly for the effort).!! There is also a misinterpretation from Garry Newman's interview. It comes from a psychology perspective more so than it does from a business one. He was more interested in the potential player interactions when forced into certain aesthetic (male or female in this case). If it was a business one he might have allowed player agency, and made a character customization to be more inclusive. I need to reiterate I do not like Rust, but I also dislike this narrow focus on this game mechanic inspired by psychology. It runs the risk of translating over to the player poorly. Take Prey, while there were undertones of psychology from beginning to end most game reviewers on youtube never delved into, and usually talked about what was readily available to the player: game mechanics. It should also be noted that anticipation for Prey 2 may have tainted reviews. Only
mentioned the psychology, and they weren't reviewing the game for customers. Even if I find Gary Newman's specific decision too exclusive, his observation can have some merit. The irony of bringing up Blizzard
is interesting, and goes against some negative views of 'investors.' Customers expressed their negative opinions, and the stocks mirrored the sentiment. That isn't to say the investors were fans in the same way, but may have recognized customer dissatisfaction. The lesson to be learned however is more simple: don't berate your customers. Something I highly respect ANET for, given their recent sacrifice in regards to former employees (I will probably be infracted for bringing this up). This isn't the same as listen to every customer, but rather needing to find balance. Gaile has done an excellent job by bringing teams forward for discussion as she stated above. Something I don't recall early MMO development doing (but we're talking about trying to remember things 10+ years ago). So I'm glad they aren't taking too many pages from past companies that are now gone (much like SoE in regards to Everquest). Lastly, I'm glad you feel an issue with
, since it is probably better to balance it out with a spectrum of opinions.

TLDR: It was a rant that lacked exact references for me to agree upon, but I will make this more clear. Give your opinion, and do not take the quote as a desire to silence discussion. I don't like, nor care for Gary Newman's desire for psychological interactions with his limiting game mechanic. That can be true at the same time of his observation retaining merit. Gaile has provided opportunities for discussion that I haven't personally seen from my experience with Everquest (1999), so I'm happy she isn't copying every page they used.

Express your mood or feeling on the topic (this is very important, and I'm not seeking to undermine conversation)
Be specific and support it with screenshots or video or context descriptions. Especially if it is a bug in order to replicate (although there is a ticket system for this)
Suggest an example, but with the understanding that ANET isn't obligated to respond to every idea (which you appear to agree with).

I don't think we would disagree with seeking to balance the romantic interpretation of game design, and the pragmatic necessities needed to implement a vision. To reiterate my observation: forum goers can miss details for one or more of the list above that often derails threads into oblivion. Such mistakes lend themselves to making two-way communication directly with developers more cumbersome (which is where Gaile and crew steps in to remedy).

XenesisII.1540 · November 10, 2018

The wvw section has always suffered from lack of communication, nothing new.The spvp section has 9 anet replies to threads on page 1.The wvw section has 1 anet reply on page 1 and it's in this thread.Page 2 has 3 new'ish anet replies, 1 in regards to balancing of winds of disenchantment from Irenio.Mckenna hasn't posted since Feb 2, 2018, super busy for 9 months, or secretly gone like the previous wvw lead devs.

Speaking of the arenanet forum chat, no big changes are expected for wvw in the future other than alliances, they are working on some more special events and minor changes to game play, nothing else to talk about. Wvw needed it's version of Ben Phongluangtham a long time ago, but a lot less productive discussions in wvw section these days anyways, so why bother either way.

Mr Godlike.6098 · November 10, 2018

@Jski.6180

Let's name elephant in the room - elementalist sub forum.

subversiontwo.7501 · November 10, 2018

@"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:I don't think this came across to me the way you wanted it to.Well, based on your response, I would presume that too.

I'd say there are two things of importance: What I said is in direct context to the original post or this thread, nothing else, and the references I made are rather specific to the points I argued but I may have too hastily assumed they were well enough known today to be taken as gospel. Let me clear those bits up, other than that I do not have much more to add than what I have already said.

I mentioned Blizzard because it is rather well known that Blizzard employees played Everquest and recruited well- versed and spoken Everquest players to design WoW. That is important because that is the counterpoint to claiming that players are "not game designers" or do not have the objective appreciation of their game to look at it from a perspective that is good for the game rather than "how they win". That reference is handy but the situation is far from unique. Newman's comments have a distinct consumer perspective that's why he mentions not getting a seat at a designer table for paying for the game in contrast to how people have been given seats at designer tables for playing and writing about games on forums like this one.

That is in part why I mentioned CCP because they are rather well known for recruiting alot of players or for running metrics on their playerbase pointing to their typical player being a 30-something professional, but EVE is also rather well known as the last surviving "real" (assuming other games, like WoW, are adapting more) early-wave MMO with everything that comes with that and that is important too. For example, having dedicated forums for "WvW politics" which used to be considered part of the games in the genre's early years (even considered half the game at times) but is categorically banned here or having dedicated forums and staff for balance- and game mechanics discussion which also ties into this specific topic and thread.

Jski.6180 · November 10, 2018

@Mr Godlike.6098 said:@Jski.6180
Let's name elephant in the room - elementalist sub forum.

Well i guess tempest running dev i had in mind but there also thf devs ranger devs the non meta classes dev that are effectually getting kicked from pug groups in wvw because of just how bad balancing is in wvw and the level of toxic community is creating.

JoEWas.1409 · November 10, 2018

@Swagger.1459 said:

Announcing to the world you a taking one for the team like I am some big target. Lol.

Okay lets start by reading Xenesisll post a few up...did you? Its rather good about ANets attention to WvW.

This starts off with a complete lack of communications to WvW community. How long did ANet keep under wraps how population was determined? How long was the community up in arms about balance? How many times has the community requested information to get the cold shoulder? Not like they are pouring out info with some sparing QA parts where they ultimately pick and choose what they want to respond to, and before the wvw questions were rare. Like Fluffy questioning Diablo Immortal. You can tell the presenters were not prepped for that question.

So backtrack during silent times WvWers wanted responses or acknowledgements with few and far between, we get an immediate response post from the community manager on a post about buying WxP through gemstores. How many people buy gems with money? Please provide me those transactions. How many people are actually using the transffering with gold? Again assumtions without numbers. The community is also assuming that ANets quiet nature to how much money transactions result in transfers, which its their right they don't have to answer. But yes, JL is a downright troll and I have got the mod hammer faster for a JL post for calling them out, didnt need to announce it to the world like you felt the need to. Took the time out, whatever.

And was I attacking their business model? No. I support this company with 100$ worth of gems a month, why? I like the game more than you think. And with some disposable income I happily budgetted in purchasing gems. If I feel the need to stop support I can put that in my pocket and go about my life. It has been far better and lasting than others recently, and since the last major MMOs i got involved with FFIX and WoW, and playing GW1, its nice to not have to pay a monthly subscription though I now chose to in my own right.

So you are entitled to your opinions and im entitled to mine. And unless you are wearing rose tinted glasses, there have been lots of post in the past for community engagement for WvW and PvP. Which they do in random spurts.

So go ahead and announce to the world again you are going to take one for, I dont know who's team. Mods have the option to silence me on the forums, ANet has the option to silence me on the forums. But until they do I will mock portions where I want, as you are free to comment and post were you please.

SloRules.3560 · November 10, 2018

@Swagger.1459 said:
@JoEWas.1409 said:
@Gaile Gray.6029 said:
Oh and @JoEWas.1409 -- got a link? I don't "try to pass things off" so I'd like to know the source of your misimpression so I can clarify whatever it was I said for you.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/276990

Closing of that post was stated directly from you in your last words, end of story, and we were suppose to take it on faith that the quick response to a notorious troll by you had no implications of revenue generation which was the title "Allow Us To Purchase WxP in the Gemstore". Strider's post seemed pretty heartfelt about the situation too.

I don’t care if I get an infraction for what I’m going to write, but I’m going to defend Gaile here... and will gladly take one for the team.

You called the poster of that thread a “regular”. That “regular” had a clear habit of making questionable intent threads, many of which seemed like they were trying to be the “funny” guy or gal... Most readers saw it, and Gaile was nice enough to give that person the benefit of the doubt despite past posting habits...

I don’t know what your issue is, but you’re directing it at the wrong Anet employee, and wrong company for that matter... Gaile has always been the nicest, the most professional and the most helpful person on these forums... And has gone way above and beyond to bridge the gap between players and devs.

Also, Anet has been more than fair with their business model and no monthly fee to play design... Tons of free content updates, and optional and non pay to win items on the gem store... The team also gave a path to obtain all gems for FREE through gold to gem conversions... And it’s laughable if you think server transfers play some big role in monthly revenue...

Again, I don’t know what your real issue is, but you’re coming off as petty and unreasonable in this thread.

What free upgrades? You are on WvW section, remember? All those updates are meaningless (rewards, linking, map,....... all are just bad). Gameplay is still exactly the same as at release.... Well, some would argue it's worse, due to powercreep.

GDchiaScrub.3241 · November 10, 2018

@subversiontwo.7501 said:
@"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:I don't think this came across to me the way you wanted it to.Well, based on your response, I would presume that too.

I'd say there are two things of importance:

What I said is in direct context to the original post or this thread, nothing else, and the references I made are rather specific to the points I argued but I may have too hastily assumed they were well enough known today to be taken as gospel. Let me clear those bits up, other than that I do not have much more to add than what I have already said.

I mentioned Blizzard because it is rather well known that Blizzard employees played Everquest and recruited well- versed and spoken Everquest players to design WoW. That is important because that is the counterpoint to claiming that players are "not game designers" or do not have the objective appreciation of their game to look at it from a perspective that is good for the game rather than "how they win". That reference is handy but the situation is far from unique. Newman's comments have a distinct consumer perspective that's why he mentions not getting a seat at a designer table for paying for the game in contrast to how people have been given seats at designer tables for playing and writing about games on forums like this one.

That is in part why I mentioned CCP because they are rather well known for recruiting alot of players or for running metrics on their playerbase pointing to their typical player being a 30-something professional, but EVE is also rather well known as the last surviving "real" (assuming other games, like WoW, are adapting more) early-wave MMO with everything that comes with that and that is important too. For example, having dedicated forums for "WvW politics" which used to be considered part of the games in the genre's early years (even considered half the game at times) but is categorically banned here or having dedicated forums and staff for balance- and game mechanics discussion which also ties into this specific topic and thread.

That clarifies part of it, but I'm still unclear what pages ANET are suppose to take away from your post. Maybe the hint at recruiting more players directly (as stated in the previous response that comes with its own

)? As for increasing intervals of communication like AFC? No more than a month, and I am fine with three months. Things do need to settle. Not saying the actual development would be completed in a single month, which means a particular AFC might have little to say like, "We're working on it." If it was differing design teams (to my knowledge it is) I can see one month AFCs being suitable, but no less than a month.

! Assuming "WvW Politics" are "matchup threads," then I agree with ANET's stance on that. Unless you can change my mind by presenting possible reasons a developer would need to see them return. WvW wasn't built around politics that you might hear about on EVE in reference of losing a space ship with estimated physical value. Regardless of ANET's stance, the players adapted by creating their own spaces like other forums or discord. You are welcome to quote whatever is useful you might find from there.!! I can see why one might take offence to Newman's statement of "players are not game designers" since it can come off as a blanket statement. He could have been more accurate and saying "most players are not game designers," but that still doesn't disprove his observations, and what he notices from his game's community. Now, if he was speaking candidly (it could be hard to tell the tone with transcripts of interviews) then I would suggest taking it literally. We both would probably agree it takes more than $20 Dollars, writing well on the forums, and passion for one game to become of designer. At some point, people will develop the skills necessary and become Creative Director of World of Warcraft (I can't speak for anyone hired by EVE, but I will assume you are correct). Obiously on the other side, companies don't recruit most players. I don't think that's what we wish to debate.!! Could Gary have chosen to correct himself? Perhaps. Do I like his design philosophy of adding social experiments to Rust? No, I still don't care for Rust. Should ANET listen to players? Sure, but it takes effort to sift out opinions that are applicable (or utilizing Gaile and crew). Should ANET respond? They can, but it isn't necessary every single time. Their actions would be more valuable, since words only get so far (the Gary Newman article even mentions the fears of over hyping upcoming things...see Alliances). I'm not saying we should ignore players because they aren't designers. I have laid out what players can do in hopes of increasing their chances of being heard in those three steps. Simply put: voice your opinion in a coherent manner, and don't expect attention immediately or directly. Take what you will from the quote, and my suggestions. It is up to you to increase your chances of being heard when forming a thread or reply.

Swagger.1459 · November 10, 2018

@JoEWas.1409 said:
@Swagger.1459 said:

Announcing to the world you a taking one for the team like I am some big target. Lol.

Okay lets start by reading Xenesisll post a few up...did you? Its rather good about ANets attention to WvW.

This starts off with a complete lack of communications to WvW community. How long did ANet keep under wraps how population was determined? How long was the community up in arms about balance? How many times has the community requested information to get the cold shoulder? Not like they are pouring out info with some sparing QA parts where they ultimately pick and choose what they want to respond to, and before the wvw questions were rare. Like Fluffy questioning Diablo Immortal. You can tell the presenters were not prepped for that question.

So backtrack during silent times WvWers wanted responses or acknowledgements with few and far between, we get an immediate response post from the community manager on a post about buying WxP through gemstores. How many people buy gems with money? Please provide me those transactions. How many people are actually using the transffering with gold? Again assumtions without numbers. The community is also assuming that ANets quiet nature to how much money transactions result in transfers, which its their right they don't have to answer. But yes, JL is a downright troll and I have got the mod hammer faster for a JL post for calling them out, didnt need to announce it to the world like you felt the need to. Took the time out, whatever.

And was I attacking their business model? No. I support this company with 100$ worth of gems a month, why? I like the game more than you think. And with some disposable income I happily budgetted in purchasing gems. If I feel the need to stop support I can put that in my pocket and go about my life. It has been far better and lasting than others recently, and since the last major MMOs i got involved with FFIX and WoW, and playing GW1, its nice to not have to pay a monthly subscription though I now chose to in my own right.

So you are entitled to your opinions and im entitled to mine. And unless you are wearing rose tinted glasses, there have been lots of post in the past for community engagement for WvW and PvP. Which they do in random spurts.

So go ahead and announce to the world again you are going to take one for, I dont know who's team. Mods have the option to silence me on the forums, ANet has the option to silence me on the forums. But until they do I will mock portions where I want, as you are free to comment and post were you please.

I understand the state of wvw pretty clearly. You are more than welcome to look at my post history on the subject of wvw and professions and balance.

The difference between you and I is about how we communicate. You come off as petty and bitter period. At least I make an effort to address issues, and come up with solutions, not just whine and dev bash.

Edit- And a community member started this thread in hopes to improve communication between devs and player to help make wvw better, and you just swoop in with unnecessary complaints... Players with your attitude are why the devs have a rule to be extra careful when interacting with the community. Meanwhile, at least some of us try make a real effort to open up constructive dialog with the devs.

And this is my last post in this thread. You should think before you post because all your doing is making it harder for sincere players to interact with the devs.

Deaths.9165 · November 10, 2018

@Swagger.1459 said:
@JoEWas.1409 said:
@Swagger.1459 said: