condition builds require way more skill than cheesy power burst ones

[malisivo.5264]

Wow, here we go again. Are we really going to defend the effectiveness of Condi vs. Power? Folks, you do realize that the OP has a point here. Perhaps using Condi Mirage for his argument doesn't do him any favors, but he does have a point that Power builds do not require combos to land in order for them to be effective and to be more effective than Condi builds.

Case in point, the difference between Ranger greatsword and dagger. Autoattack on GS, hefty damage, and depending on the runes and amulets you use, can do up to 3-5k damage. From a single hit. Autoattack chain on Dagger, while applies three different Condis, not all are damaging Condis and can be cleared. Base damage on Dagger is significantly lower to off-set the amount of Condis it can land on an opponent. But, the point is that it can be cleared. Not to mention, the cancer spam that is Maul and if you successfully land the daze on GS 5, it's replenished. And it can hit multiple enemies within a small radius. But that is a discussion for another time.

Another example is Ranger longbow and shortbow. Have you ever wondered why people hate using shortbow in PVP? Despite its utility (evade, immob and cripple, stun), it just doesn't deal damage quickly enough to down an opponent. Its AA can stack bleeding pretty high, but once again, it can be cleared. Traits in Skirmishing are absolutely needed to make its bleeds dangerous enough for the opponent to worry about cleansing it. Otherwise, shortbow is hardly ever a worry in PVP. Longbow, on the other hand, coupled with Quickening Zephyr and a healthy dose of One Wolf pack, can down an opponent within four seconds or less. Yes, it can blocked or dodged, but now opponents have wasted their blocks and dodges only to be knocked back, Autoattacked, and barraged. Now, my point here is that Longbow can deal enough damage without using Quickening Zephyr and One Wolf Pack, but with the two skills, it is nearly unstoppable.

Now, for any Condi weapon to be viable, it needs to have specific runes and amulets in place that will increase the damage of the Condis and the base damage of the weapons. Power weapons don't need that. No one can argue that power weapons need combos to win fights. Because their base damage can defeat Condi damage at any time of the day.

What people complain about is Condi burst, which Condi Mirages excel at. But, not all classes have access to Condi burst and definitely not as many Condis as Mirages do. Multiple stacks of multiple conditions cannot function as Damage Over Time, which is what Condi is supposed to be. What should be nerfed is the burst, not the conditions themselves (though I would take another look at confusion and torment, like what the fudgenuts are those). And I think that's what most players fail to realize.

Well, if you reached the end of my rant, thank you for taking the time to read it. I'd give you a cookie, but unfortunately, I've eaten them all.

[jportell.2197]

@malisivo.5264 said:Wow, here we go again. Are we really going to defend the effectiveness of Condi vs. Power? Folks, you do realize that the OP has a point here. Perhaps using Condi Mirage for his argument doesn't do him any favors, but he does have a point that Power builds do not require combos to land in order for them to be effective and to be more effective than Condi builds.

Case in point, the difference between Ranger greatsword and dagger. Autoattack on GS, hefty damage, and depending on the runes and amulets you use, can do up to 3-5k damage. From a single hit. Autoattack chain on Dagger, while applies three different Condis, not all are damaging Condis and can be cleared. Base damage on Dagger is significantly lower to off-set the amount of Condis it can land on an opponent. But, the point is that it can be cleared. Not to mention, the cancer spam that is Maul and if you successfully land the daze on GS 5, it's replenished. And it can hit multiple enemies within a small radius. But that is a discussion for another time.

Another example is Ranger longbow and shortbow. Have you ever wondered why people hate using shortbow in PVP? Despite its utility (evade, immob and cripple, stun), it just doesn't deal damage quickly enough to down an opponent. Its AA can stack bleeding pretty high, but once again, it can be cleared. Traits in Skirmishing are absolutely needed to make its bleeds dangerous enough for the opponent to worry about cleansing it. Otherwise, shortbow is hardly ever a worry in PVP. Longbow, on the other hand, coupled with Quickening Zephyr and a healthy dose of One Wolf pack, can down an opponent within four seconds or less. Yes, it can blocked or dodged, but now opponents have wasted their blocks and dodges only to be knocked back, Autoattacked, and barraged. Now, my point here is that Longbow can deal enough damage without using Quickening Zephyr and One Wolf Pack, but with the two skills, it is nearly unstoppable.

Now, for any Condi weapon to be viable, it needs to have specific runes and amulets in place that will increase the damage of the Condis and the base damage of the weapons. Power weapons don't need that. No one can argue that power weapons need combos to win fights. Because their base damage can defeat Condi damage at any time of the day.

What people complain about is Condi burst, which Condi Mirages excel at. But, not all classes have access to Condi burst and definitely not as many Condis as Mirages do. Multiple stacks of multiple conditions cannot function as Damage Over Time, which is what Condi is supposed to be. What should be nerfed is the burst, not the conditions themselves (though I would take another look at confusion and torment, like what the fudgenuts are those). And I think that's what most players fail to realize.

Well, if you reached the end of my rant, thank you for taking the time to read it. I'd give you a cookie, but unfortunately, I've eaten them all.

What's funny is I have literally had players stow weapons and stand there after they take a condi burst from me on my mirage. It barely tickles them. And almost all conditions from a mirage are a pretty short duration. Confusion especially is something like 4 seconds at its longest in PvP.

If you're in a 1v1 with a mirage and don't dodge their burst. Stow weapons and stand for 2-3 seconds. And you'll be fine.

So many people just spam through their skill bar trying to lock down the mirage. If they stopped for a few seconds they'd be fine.

[incisorr.9502]

@"Alatar.7364" said:Can't believe what I just endured reading.Do you realize that by those deceptions, half-truths and alibism you are using to defend something you love, something that everybody knows (and proven) to be totally broken, you are hurting the game? You are intentionaly damaging the community by desperately trying to keep something that is so unhealthy.I am gonna go ahead and guess this is all because you main Condi Mirage and you can't put up with the fact that most people already figured out there is almost no skill involved and you simply freaked out when you faced that reality.I originally made a long post adressing enterity of your Post but I realized there is so so so so much wrong with your post with so much personal bias in it, that I canceled it as it would be totally pointless arguing.

You're saying i post half - truths? How about some facts then

In top 20 of the last season there are only 3 (three) condi players , one of which plays duo and plays the minimum number of games just to sit at #1 and is a scourge, then there's a mesmer (me) and another scourge unless he played reaper at some point. If condi was so good then people would play it but nobody at high elo does. In the majority of the games im the only condi player in rankedin unranked it's the same xcept there are occasionally other mirages who probably read the forum and read people with ludicrous and aggressive opinions that are completely baseless such as yours so they thought mirage must be so broken and then they decide to try it and i 1v2 them easily while they have another legendary player with them who i even struggle to 1v1 against but whether i 1v1 a legendary soulbeast or a soulbeast + a not-very-good mirage it's pretty much the same cause the mirage dies for free to me and then i'll need a healing rotation perhaps to stabilize my cooldowns to reset the fight vs the other player

not-very-good mirages are among the easiest to kill people for me

so you're telling me i'm ruining the game and damaging the community but you're literally posting bs out of thin air and out of your ass while i'm posting with experience that you can look up right now in game yourself. I can name you all the players (based on account names) and what classes they play in case you don't know them and if mirage was so "braindead and broken" people would play it because the majority of people reroll to whats op and play whats op and don't stick to a class out of loyalty (like some do, like i have done for the most part in all games i've played)

I don't even do wvw but condi builds arent even a thing in wvw just cause condi is so easily countered because your teammates can cleanse your conditions(ppl literally play POWER scourge, lmao) but they can't cleanse 20k unblockable thief stealth attacks from 1500 range or a guard 1shotting you with judge combo or a revenant or even a darn warrior doing 8k dmg counter into 8k arcing slice lmao btw, oh yeah or my personal favorite a soulbeast doing 18k dmg with worldly impact with marauder amulet (not even zerker) while having 23k+ hp with perma protection uptime (which also reduces condi damage) ayyyYy half-truths btw

and again, i mentioned this earlier - why does every ignorant player overlook the fact that condi builds also run 2k power so it's not just condi its literally a hybrid build..?

im runnin 35% crit rate with fury uptime (so 55%) with 2k power and you're going to come here with full ignorance and say its a condi build when i get 7k scepter confusing images alone on some people (combine it with shatters and autos and counters it gets even higher)

[Alatar.7364]

@incisorr.9502 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:Can't believe what I just endured reading.Do you realize that by those deceptions, half-truths and alibism you are using to defend something you love, something that everybody knows (and proven) to be totally broken, you are hurting the game? You are intentionaly damaging the community by desperately trying to keep something that is so unhealthy.I am gonna go ahead and guess this is all because you main Condi Mirage and you can't put up with the fact that most people already figured out there is almost no skill involved and you simply freaked out when you faced that reality.I originally made a long post adressing enterity of your Post but I realized there is so so so so much wrong with your post with so much personal bias in it, that I canceled it as it would be totally pointless arguing.

You're saying i post half - truths? How about some facts then

In top 20 of the last season there are only 3 (three) condi players , one of which plays duo and plays the minimum number of games just to sit at #1 and is a scourge, then there's a mesmer (me) and another scourge unless he played reaper at some point. If condi was so good then people would play it but nobody at high elo does. In the majority of the games im the only condi player in rankedin unranked it's the same xcept there are occasionally other mirages who probably read the forum and read people with ludicrous and aggressive opinions that are completely baseless such as yours so they thought mirage must be so broken and then they decide to try it and i 1v2 them easily while they have another legendary player with them who i even struggle to 1v1 against but whether i 1v1 a legendary soulbeast or a soulbeast + a not-very-good mirage it's pretty much the same cause the mirage dies for free to me and then i'll need a healing rotation perhaps to stabilize my cooldowns to reset the fight vs the other player

not-very-good mirages are among the easiest to kill people for me

so you're telling me i'm ruining the game and damaging the community but you're literally posting bs out of thin air and out of your kitten while i'm posting with experience that you can look up right now in game yourself. I can name you all the players (based on account names) and what classes they play in case you don't know them and if mirage was so "braindead and broken" people would play it because the majority of people reroll to whats op and play whats op and don't stick to a class out of loyalty (like some do, like i have done for the most part in all games i've played)

I don't even do wvw but condi builds arent even a thing in wvw just cause condi is so easily countered because your teammates can cleanse your conditions(ppl literally play POWER scourge, lmao) but they can't cleanse 20k unblockable thief stealth attacks from 1500 range or a guard 1shotting you with judge combo or a revenant or even a darn warrior doing 8k dmg counter into 8k arcing slice lmao btw, oh yeah or my personal favorite a soulbeast doing 18k dmg with worldly impact with marauder amulet (not even zerker) while having 23k+ hp with perma protection uptime (which also reduces condi damage) ayyyYy half-truths btw

and again, i mentioned this earlier - why does every ignorant player overlook the fact that condi builds also run 2k power so it's not just condi its literally a hybrid build..?

im runnin 35% crit rate with fury uptime (so 55%) with 2k power and you're going to come here with full ignorance and say its a condi build when i get 7k scepter confusing images alone on some people (combine it with shatters and autos and counters it gets even higher)

1) I am talking Condi Mirage, not Condi in general, because I could smell by miles away that your post is based purely about your cries of "Mirage not as OP as it was so now I can see how little I actually achieved".2) Historically speaking LBs never represented whether profession is OP or not, not to mention Condi Mirage is not there because it carries players in solo, but for duo players choose better comps and those are the ones that are in LB. Also, players in LB use to keep their post with Mirage when theirs not Duo on, even though it's not their main which alone speaks for how little effort it requires.3) Hybrids are even worse, you got both Condi and Direct on very high level while having the same defense as normal direct. While with Condi only, you can happily have two defensive stats or one major defensive with major condi, so difficult, huh.4) It seems to me that you are trying to pretend there are so few Condi Mirages, that's a new worse lie I've ever heard. I never have less than two and never had even during season, nor did any single of the people I know or spoke with.

[Abazigal.3679]

Totally wrong. You have to consider a few things :

• Full burst builds ( i'm talking about builds such as zerker thief or old 100b war) are usually totally speced in order to land a big spike that will down the target in 3-5 seconds, which means they will generally have literraly 0 defense
• Condition builds mostly can do multi jobs at same time , i.e hold point, have sustain, and have huge damage thanks to condi
• There are many passive/traits that will prevent the full burst to down the player. Note that there isn't a single passive that will prevent you from dying to conditions.

Right now, this isn't a skill question, but it's really hard to play a full burst build in this meta, whereas probably any average joe can expect good results running a condition build. You get the proof of this where a lot of players who have no idea how to play capture points managed to climb with scourge or mirage.

[tinyreborn.1938]

@Abazigal.3679 said:Totally wrong. You have to consider a few things :

• Condition builds mostly can do multi jobs at same time , i.e hold point, have sustain, and have huge damage thanks to condi

Right now, this isn't a skill question, but it's really hard to play a full burst build in this meta, whereas probably any average joe can expect good results running a condition build. You get the proof of this where a lot of players who have no idea how to play capture points managed to climb with scourge or mirage.

Im confused . If you claim condi builds to be absurdly OP doing million things at once. Why among condi builds viable only scourge(with pocket firebrand) and mirage?Where all those broken condi soulbeasts ,berserkers etc?

• There are many passive/traits that will prevent the full burst to down the player. Note that there isn't a single passive that will prevent you from dying to conditions.You mean only endure pain and reflexes? Elixir working for both damage types. Passive transmute, shrug it off , cleansing fire automatically remove conditions . Death prevention traits work on both damage types.
• Full burst builds ( i'm talking about builds such as zerker thief or old 100b war) are usually totally speced in order to land a big spike that will down the target in 3-5 seconds, which means they will generally have literraly 0 defenseWhat builds you talking about ? Now we have holos/soulbeasts/spb that basically bunkers with zerk damage (quotted one guy after he returned to the game after a break xD)

[Master Ketsu.4569]

I'm 95% sure at this point that incisorr is a troll account.

[whoknocks.4935]

@malisivo.5264 said:Wow, here we go again. Are we really going to defend the effectiveness of Condi vs. Power? Folks, you do realize that the OP has a point here. Perhaps using Condi Mirage for his argument doesn't do him any favors, but he does have a point that Power builds do not require combos to land in order for them to be effective and to be more effective than Condi builds.

Case in point, the difference between Ranger greatsword and dagger. Autoattack on GS, hefty damage, and depending on the runes and amulets you use, can do up to 3-5k damage. From a single hit. Autoattack chain on Dagger, while applies three different Condis, not all are damaging Condis and can be cleared. Base damage on Dagger is significantly lower to off-set the amount of Condis it can land on an opponent. But, the point is that it can be cleared. Not to mention, the cancer spam that is Maul and if you successfully land the daze on GS 5, it's replenished. And it can hit multiple enemies within a small radius. But that is a discussion for another time.

Another example is Ranger longbow and shortbow. Have you ever wondered why people hate using shortbow in PVP? Despite its utility (evade, immob and cripple, stun), it just doesn't deal damage quickly enough to down an opponent. Its AA can stack bleeding pretty high, but once again, it can be cleared. Traits in Skirmishing are absolutely needed to make its bleeds dangerous enough for the opponent to worry about cleansing it. Otherwise, shortbow is hardly ever a worry in PVP. Longbow, on the other hand, coupled with Quickening Zephyr and a healthy dose of One Wolf pack, can down an opponent within four seconds or less. Yes, it can blocked or dodged, but now opponents have wasted their blocks and dodges only to be knocked back, Autoattacked, and barraged. Now, my point here is that Longbow can deal enough damage without using Quickening Zephyr and One Wolf Pack, but with the two skills, it is nearly unstoppable.

Now, for any Condi weapon to be viable, it needs to have specific runes and amulets in place that will increase the damage of the Condis and the base damage of the weapons. Power weapons don't need that. No one can argue that power weapons need combos to win fights. Because their base damage can defeat Condi damage at any time of the day.

What people complain about is Condi burst, which Condi Mirages excel at. But, not all classes have access to Condi burst and definitely not as many Condis as Mirages do. Multiple stacks of multiple conditions cannot function as Damage Over Time, which is what Condi is supposed to be. What should be nerfed is the burst, not the conditions themselves (though I would take another look at confusion and torment, like what the fudgenuts are those). And I think that's what most players fail to realize.

Well, if you reached the end of my rant, thank you for taking the time to read it. I'd give you a cookie, but unfortunately, I've eaten them all.

Most of the times the condi burst comes from pressing keys while having 20 stacks or plus confusion.And it's the same when an holo use holo#5 and CC you because you don't dodge and he melts you immediately one second later, or if you fail to dodge bull's charge and get punished.You can avoid being condi bursted using blocks, evades, or dodging at the right time.Bad players are not used to it in low leagues, they panic and random dodge and get punished.

Trust me if you face a noob mirage he won't be able to kill you if you are a better player and know dodges, instead in many cases a pretty bad average holo can still have great chances at killing you.I fought an holo in wvw he managed to use 5 damn elixir s during a single fight and recover back up, if that is not being carried I dunno what is it xD

You have no idea how many players i encounter in wvw even using good build and high rank who random dodge if i use axe mirage autoattack at 900 or plus range, it's a melee attack and they see the purple animation and waste 1 or 2 dodges random, and they get punished immediately after because i land my shatters and axe2 no problem.

Timing the condi burst on good opponent is way harder than timing power damage.Opposite rule, it's easier to apply a condi burst to a noob or bad player more than power burst.

For example a bad player facing a scourge will die always in 1vs1, if you are a good player even with zero condi cleanses you can 100-0 a scourge avoiding shades dodging out of it, avoiding the elite, blocking at the right time, and immediately stunbreak when you get CC.

I don't necessarily think condi is more skill based than power, they are both equal.But even when people were crying about condi fiesta pvp, there was only scourge and mirage, some random condi thief too, but power always been predominant over condi, they were talking like every single profession were condi... condi spellbreaker, condi firebrand, condi ranger, condi core guard...

[Stand The Wall.6987]

some condi builds are cheese just like some power builds are easy to get results with. it really comes down to build+skill vs. build+skill.

[whoknocks.4935]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:some condi builds are cheese just like some power builds are easy to get results with. it really comes down to build+skill vs. build+skill.

Why a build which works it's cheese?

[tinyreborn.1938]

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:some condi builds are cheese just like some power builds are easy to get results with. it really comes down to build+skill vs. build+skill.

Why a build which works it's cheese?

Because if you land full confusion combo people (bad ones) self destruct 100-0 instead of use 'cleanse everything' button or stop using skills ? But they come to forum to create 1 million threads about it

[incisorr.9502]

@Abazigal.3679 said:Right now, this isn't a skill question, but it's really hard to play a full burst build in this meta, whereas probably any average joe can expect good results running a condition build. You get the proof of this where a lot of players who have no idea how to play capture points managed to climb with scourge or mirage.

where are those climbers with scourge and mirage?

didn't i literally just tell you there is only one scourge and one mirage in top 20

what are you people even smoking lmao, the other 17 people play power builds and prolly 10 of them have ferocity in the build as well (cus 1 is the duo+guy)

why is this forum so full of trolls

[viquing.8254]

@Abazigal.3679 said:

• Full burst builds ( i'm talking about builds such as zerker thief or old 100b war) are usually totally speced in order to land a big spike that will down the target in 3-5 seconds, which means they will generally have literraly 0 defense

which means they will generally have literraly 0 defense

which means they will generally have literraly 0 defense

which means they will generally have literraly 0 defensewhich means they ........

Cough cough....Hopefully you talk about old builds because actually every direct damage meta build have High damage and pretty good defense too. :)

That said, about the discussion :

let's make small comparision in here, shall we?

Boons directly affecting incoming power damage:Protection: -33% incoming power damageAegis: completely block next hit (reduces power damage to 0, unless lul unblockable)

Boons directly affecting incoming condi damage:Resistance (ignore all condis)

Debuffs directly affecting outgoing power damage:weaknessblind

Debuffs directly affecting outgoing condi damage:none.

and that's on global level without even delving into profession specific gimmicks like full counter nullifying power damage to nothing for a hit....As @whoknocks.4935 said :

Aegis affect condi application same way than power application.Same for blind.Same for full counter.

The list is more like :Boon :condi : resistance.power : protection.

Condi :power : weakness.

Aaaannnd condi can be evaded the same way as power sources and can be clean (and there is way more clean than weakness application.)

And finally, there's condi mirage, who can apply a HUGE amount of stacks of VARIOUS conditions (like 10-15 stacks of confusion, 10-15 bleed, 10-15 torment and 3-6 burning, depending on a build). All 4 at the same time.Where is this op button who put all 4 at the same time ?

something that everybody knows (and proven) to be totally brokenIt's more than every casuals don't want to run condiclear and evade condi attacks. (Btw I don't care they died as much versus power or condi.)

[incisorr.9502]

(most of these ppl duoed to top 20 which is "cheating" but i won't mention it except for the "condi players")1 - scourge , mostly plays duos and didn't spam ranked (which makes it easier to climb cus the more u do the lower your rating will get cus the game tries to lower your win rate cus that's how all ranked systems are usually made)2- HOLO (and the meta holo build is the perfect example why power is OP - the fact that a build with 16k max hp can get to be meta WITH ZERO CONDITION REMOVAL (except forge removal which is just 2 condis, get real, that's not a real removal) just goes to show how broken power/ferocity scaling is. You do so much dmg with these cheesy builds you just kill your enemy before they can even react for the most part and if it doesnt work you just die cus cheesy 0 condi removal/sustainable fighting power)3 - revenant/thief as far as im aware4- warrior5- firebrand6- firebrand7 -deadeye8- firebrand9 -druid/trolling10- reaper11- core guard for the most part as far as im aware12 - mesmer - not even playing the meta mesmer build which is what most people identify mesmer with because that build is incredibly flawed and bad and heavily relies on shatters which are easily countered, doesn't excel at many things while my build is mostly team fight focused which basically makes me like a scourge that can roam and can 1v1 and has some counters but also hard-counters some enemies. That's my "role". Not even the traditional mesmer role13 - firebrand14 - can't remember who this guy is w/o seeing his char15 - revenant / soulbeast as far as im aware16 - he used to play necro i dont know what hes playing now17 - warrior18 - scourge as far as im aware, not sure if he played smt else and if he duoed19 - revenant20 - holo

condi so overpowered to climb hurr,durr. I only skimmed thru the rest of the names till top 50 cause "rating system" doesn't really prove skill or no skill and i only saw 2 other mirages and i didn't pay much attention but you get the point.

the point is that you can't say that a class/stereotype with less than 5-10% playrate is overpowered. I also gave you other facts like how easy it is to counter conditions and how they actually let you play the game since you don't instantly die unlike power which can result in a random 1shot spike where you can't do anything

How delusional does someone have to be to say that power builds with 90% playrate are harder and weaker than 10% playrate condi ones lmao. There hasn't been a single game in the history of the internet in which people have intentionally not picked overpowered stuff. See few months ago when mirage was overpowered (I do agree it was OP before the many nerfs) there were way more mirage players and that was an indication, now there are barely any players and again that's an indication

It's essentially just power creep, they felt pressured to add better and more things so they added better power skills (full counter, soulbeast's insane stats, holomancer, deadeye etc) and they also added better conditions (mirage, scourge) but at the same time they added better condition removal and even buffed older ones by as much as 50-100% value (like for example ele's cleansing flames, even if ele is garbage im just using it as an example went from 3 to 5) and they also added firebrand but they didn't add any new buff or way to reduce the incoming physical dmg

so they buffed phys dmg, condi dmg, condi removal but not protection uptime (xcept for soulbeast) or blocks or even iframes (sure weaver gets a bit extra iframes and so does mirage but it's not as many as you need, plus iframe doesnt matter when you get oneshot from stealth or from a teleport through a wall)

this isn't even argument, logic is on my side, facts are on my argument's side and in game results and examples literally all support what i'm saying. It's pretty much a statement. On top of all that almost all the condi removal in teh game is shared, even necro converts condis to boons, hell even MESMER's POWER CLEANSE MANTRA REMOVES CONDITIONS FOR ALLIES!!!!(FOR ALLIES). You can literally get help with condi removal from your entire team

what they need to do is nerf how out of control power has gotten (just wait till you see a high elo rev, deadeye,core guard,reaper or even mesmer) and perhaps add new amulets that somewhat favor condition more and maybe then we'll get more diversity and new condi builds that actually work(there are no 560 power amulets for example and you can do a lot of stuff and add all kinds of variations around it) and overall all the amulets are way more favorable for power builds

btw to address this

And finally, there's condi mirage, who can apply a HUGE amount of stacks of VARIOUS conditions (like 10-15 stacks of confusion, 10-15 bleed, 10-15 torment and 3-6 burning, depending on a build). All 4 at the same time.

cool, my condi removal gets rid of 3 at a time and is instant and i can cast it twice so it sounds like i can remove all of his burst in 0,3 seconds and then he has 0 skills leftimagine if he were a deadeye and hit me with death's judgement for 18k dmg. I'd have 3k hp left and nothing would "remove " his dmg as easily as condi removal gets rid of torment/confusion

edit: oh and as for weakness being a power counter - no

weakness doesn't activate on crit hits and power builds run high crit ratecondi builds however do no damage without going 1000 power but you don't go full crit rate and on top of that condi builds rely on dodges to apply their condi (mesmer and thief for example , if daredevil) so weakness actually counters condi harder than it counters power cause you dont crit as often so you get lower damage more often and you also lose your stamina regen and if you don't believe me that a condi build without 1000 power amulet does no damage then feel free to try playing deadshot amulet mirage against good players (with condi removal in their builds) see how far you get. You literally won't make a dent

[Sampson.2403]

@jportell.2197 said:

@malisivo.5264 said:Wow, here we go again. Are we really going to defend the effectiveness of Condi vs. Power? Folks, you do realize that the OP has a point here. Perhaps using Condi Mirage for his argument doesn't do him any favors, but he does have a point that Power builds do not require combos to land in order for them to be effective and to be more effective than Condi builds.

Case in point, the difference between Ranger greatsword and dagger. Autoattack on GS, hefty damage, and depending on the runes and amulets you use, can do up to 3-5k damage. From a single hit. Autoattack chain on Dagger, while applies three different Condis, not all are damaging Condis and can be cleared. Base damage on Dagger is significantly lower to off-set the amount of Condis it can land on an opponent. But, the point is that

it can be cleared

. Not to mention, the cancer spam that is Maul and if you successfully land the daze on GS 5, it's replenished. And it can hit multiple enemies within a small radius. But that is a discussion for another time.

Another example is Ranger longbow and shortbow. Have you ever wondered why people hate using shortbow in PVP? Despite its utility (evade, immob and cripple, stun), it just doesn't deal damage quickly enough to down an opponent. Its AA can stack bleeding pretty high, but once again, it can be cleared. Traits in Skirmishing are absolutely

needed

to make its bleeds dangerous enough for the opponent to worry about cleansing it. Otherwise, shortbow is hardly ever a worry in PVP. Longbow, on the other hand, coupled with Quickening Zephyr and a healthy dose of One Wolf pack, can down an opponent within four seconds or less. Yes, it can blocked or dodged, but now opponents have wasted their blocks and dodges only to be knocked back, Autoattacked, and barraged. Now, my point here is that Longbow can deal enough damage without using Quickening Zephyr and One Wolf Pack, but with the two skills, it is nearly unstoppable.

Now, for any Condi weapon to be viable, it needs to have specific runes and amulets in place that will increase the damage of the Condis

and

the base damage of the weapons. Power weapons don't need that. No one can argue that power weapons

need

combos to win fights. Because their base damage can defeat Condi damage at any time of the day.

What people complain about is

Condi burst

, which Condi Mirages excel at. But, not all classes have access to Condi burst and definitely not as many Condis as Mirages do. Multiple stacks of multiple conditions cannot function as

Damage Over Time

, which is what Condi is supposed to be. What should be nerfed

is the burst

, not the conditions themselves (though I would take another look at confusion and torment, like what the fudgenuts are those). And I think that's what most players fail to realize.

Well, if you reached the end of my rant, thank you for taking the time to read it. I'd give you a cookie, but unfortunately, I've eaten them all.

What's funny is I have literally had players stow weapons and stand there after they take a condi burst from me on my mirage. It barely tickles them. And almost all conditions from a mirage are a pretty short duration. Confusion especially is something like 4 seconds at its longest in PvP.

If you're in a 1v1 with a mirage and don't dodge their burst. Stow weapons and stand for 2-3 seconds. And you'll be fine.

So many people just spam through their skill bar trying to lock down the mirage. If they stopped for a few seconds they'd be fine.

Exactly. I'll bet everyone that complains about condi mirage doesn't have a stow weapon hotkey and probably runs during torment.

If you're struggling against condi mirage just make it a point to focus on stowing weapon and not moving when you are inflicted by confusion & torrment. It feels unnatural and clunky to fight this way at first, just gotta practice it.

Then the next thing to learn vs condi mirage is when to clear condis vs waiting them out and when to try and land damage and limiting blowing offensive cooldowns into mirage cloak, distortion and blurred frenzy. This really just boils down to timing and counting the condi mirages cooldowns/vigor.

Obviously everything that ive written is much harder for a less experienced pvper to do than a good pvper which is why condi mirage typically smashes noobs and gets so many forum complaints.

[Sampson.2403]

@"incisorr.9502" said:

(most of these ppl duoed to top 20 which is "cheating" but i won't mention it except for the "condi players")1 - scourge , mostly plays duos and didn't spam ranked (which makes it easier to climb cus the more u do the lower your rating will get cus the game tries to lower your win rate cus that's how all ranked systems are usually made)2- HOLO (and the meta holo build is the perfect example why power is OP - the fact that a build with 16k max hp can get to be meta WITH ZERO CONDITION REMOVAL (except forge removal which is just 2 condis, get real, that's not a real removal) just goes to show how broken power/ferocity scaling is. You do so much dmg with these cheesy builds you just kill your enemy before they can even react for the most part and if it doesnt work you just die cus cheesy 0 condi removal/sustainable fighting power)3 - revenant/thief as far as im aware4- warrior5- firebrand6- firebrand7 -deadeye8- firebrand9 -druid/trolling10- reaper11- core guard for the most part as far as im aware12 - mesmer - not even playing the meta mesmer build which is what most people identify mesmer with because that build is incredibly flawed and bad and heavily relies on shatters which are easily countered, doesn't excel at many things while my build is mostly team fight focused which basically makes me like a scourge that can roam and can 1v1 and has some counters but also hard-counters some enemies. That's my "role". Not even the traditional mesmer role13 - firebrand14 - can't remember who this guy is w/o seeing his char15 - revenant / soulbeast as far as im aware16 - he used to play necro i dont know what hes playing now17 - warrior18 - scourge as far as im aware, not sure if he played smt else and if he duoed19 - revenant20 - holo

condi so overpowered to climb hurr,durr. I only skimmed thru the rest of the names till top 50 cause "rating system" doesn't really prove skill or no skill and i only saw 2 other mirages and i didn't pay much attention but you get the point.

the point is that you can't say that a class/stereotype with less than 5-10% playrate is overpowered. I also gave you other facts like how easy it is to counter conditions and how they actually let you play the game since you don't instantly die unlike power which can result in a random 1shot spike where you can't do anything

How delusional does someone have to be to say that power builds with 90% playrate are harder and weaker than 10% playrate condi ones lmao. There hasn't been a single game in the history of the internet in which people have intentionally not picked overpowered stuff. See few months ago when mirage was overpowered (I do agree it was OP before the many nerfs) there were way more mirage players and that was an indication, now there are barely any players and again that's an indication

It's essentially just power creep, they felt pressured to add better and more things so they added better power skills (full counter, soulbeast's insane stats, holomancer, deadeye etc) and they also added better conditions (mirage, scourge) but at the same time they added better condition removal and even buffed older ones by as much as 50-100% value (like for example ele's cleansing flames, even if ele is garbage im just using it as an example went from 3 to 5) and they also added firebrand but they didn't add any new buff or way to reduce the incoming physical dmg

so they buffed phys dmg, condi dmg, condi removal but not protection uptime (xcept for soulbeast) or blocks or even iframes (sure weaver gets a bit extra iframes and so does mirage but it's not as many as you need, plus iframe doesnt matter when you get oneshot from stealth or from a teleport through a wall)

this isn't even argument, logic is on my side, facts are on my argument's side and in game results and examples literally all support what i'm saying. It's pretty much a statement. On top of all that almost all the condi removal in teh game is shared, even necro converts condis to boons, hell even MESMER's POWER CLEANSE MANTRA REMOVES CONDITIONS FOR ALLIES!!!!(FOR ALLIES). You can literally get help with condi removal from your entire team

what they need to do is nerf how out of control power has gotten (just wait till you see a high elo rev, deadeye,core guard,reaper or even mesmer) and perhaps add new amulets that somewhat favor condition more and maybe then we'll get more diversity and new condi builds that actually work(there are no 560 power amulets for example and you can do a lot of stuff and add all kinds of variations around it) and overall all the amulets are way more favorable for power builds

btw to address this

And finally, there's condi mirage, who can apply a HUGE amount of stacks of VARIOUS conditions (like 10-15 stacks of confusion, 10-15 bleed, 10-15 torment and 3-6 burning, depending on a build). All 4 at the same time.

cool, my condi removal gets rid of 3 at a time and is instant and i can cast it twice so it sounds like i can remove all of his burst in 0,3 seconds and then he has 0 skills leftimagine if he were a deadeye and hit me with death's judgement for 18k dmg. I'd have 3k hp left and nothing would "remove " his dmg as easily as condi removal gets rid of torment/confusion

edit: oh and as for weakness being a power counter - no

weakness doesn't activate on crit hits and power builds run high crit ratecondi builds however do no damage without going 1000 power but you don't go full crit rate and on top of that condi builds rely on dodges to apply their condi (mesmer and thief for example , if daredevil) so weakness actually counters condi harder than it counters power cause you dont crit as often so you get lower damage more often and you also lose your stamina regen and if you don't believe me that a condi build without 1000 power amulet does no damage then feel free to try playing deadshot amulet mirage against good players (with condi removal in their builds) see how far you get. You literally won't make a dent

Lol at all the people who called you a troll and said you were full of kitten then you posted proof that your ranked top 20 and you defined the classes that the other 19 play and just rained epic logic on all of it.

This is a great example of how you pwn it on the forums.

OOF ya non believers just got pwned hard.

[Celestia.9128]

Yeah but, I want mirage as free kill tho, so I gotta call for more nerf.

[Tiah.3091]

@"incisorr.9502" said:btw to address this

cool, my condi removal gets rid of 3 at a time and is instant and i can cast it twice so it sounds like i can remove all of his burst in 0,3 seconds and then he has 0 skills left

Well, the thing is, is that you have to run ACTUAL condi removal ability for that.Not some utility "which ALSO removes condies, WHILE doing something ELSE".Like Arcane Thievery, for example.

I.E., most people will take a "weak cleanse + some other utility"-type spell over a "dedicated and reliable cleanse"-type spell.

My point is that in lower ranks people either run weak cleanses or no cleanses at all.That's why condi builds (and especially condi mirages) wreak havoc there.Condi mirage is OP in lower ranks - in short.

And your opinion on the matter is well known: "low rating games do not matter, only top100 does".Which basically means "100 people are more important, than 5000".

Which is bullshit, in my opinion.

[viquing.8254]

@"Tiah.3091" said:And your opinion on the matter is well known: "low rating games do not matter, only top100 does".Which basically means "100 people are more important, than 5000".The exact sentence is : people who use 100% of their class potential are more important talking about balance than 5000 with exotic builds who don't use full potential of their tools.Then it's no more kitten.

[Tiah.3091]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"Tiah.3091" said:And your opinion on the matter is well known: "low rating games do not matter, only top100 does".Which basically means "100 people are more important, than 5000".The exact sentence is : people who use 100% of their class potential are more important talking about balance than 5000 with exotic builds who don't use full potential of their tools.Then it's no more kitten.

Eh.. that would be somewhat true and logical sentence, at least in a context of condi cleanse. But the truth is, is that you do not really need THAT much of condi cleanse in general, unless you are going to fight a condi mirage. Where you need MULTIPLE charges of at least 3 condi cleanse, INSTANT and 100% RELIABLE. Because condi-bomb of 10 torment and 10-15 confusion doesn't last long, but it hits hard.Which is exactly where mantra of resolve comes in handy.Otherwise it's very questionable choice and has absolutely nothing to do with "use 100% of their class potential". It instead pretty much as "exotic" as it can be for a non-support build (which Incisorr said he isn't).

@"tinyreborn.1938" said:Thats hilariously dumb argument 'I'm bad, thus all those classes I cant win against, must be nerfed" xD

I play mirage main, lol.Sometimes condi-hybrid mirage. And I don't have a problem winning against a condi mirage. At least it's by a LIGHT YEAR easier, than against high platinum spellbreaker, holo or boon soulbeast.Yet I still think it's somewhat unbalanced. To much less extent, than other builds out there, but still.

[Simonoly.4352]

Mechanically, most condi builds on most classes play identically to power variants. The only real difference being when the bulk of the damage actually occurs.

Conclusion: everything in GW2 is easy to play.

[Tiah.3091]

@"tinyreborn.1938" said:

didnt like his own argument about selling virginity of certain places ,probably sold ...

Also,I'm perfectly fine with my own argument from another thread.

If I recall correctly, you stated, that my build was trash, and I'm therefore also trash as a player. Which I won't deny, as I only play for 2 months, and I try to get better.

But yet I sincerely think, that build diversity is what making this game precious.If I'm able to come up with a build, which I think is super fun to play -- I will play it. And I don't really care, if I'm handicapping myself by 100-200 rating by doing that.

Some people do care, therefore they play the most effective and broken powerfull build there is. Like boon holo, boonbeast, or spb.

Some people actually find these builds fun. Some don't and only play it to achieve rating. And thats exactly why I came up with this analogy of selling the "virginity of certain places for another 100 rating".

I didn't mean ALL the players with high rating, nor did I mean ALL the players who play meta builds.

And yet you STILL took the offence personally. Not sure why, but I have a couple of guesses.

(and I'm not even sure you are high rated, at least you're certainly not in top 250)

[tinyreborn.1938]

@Tiah.3091 said:@"tinyreborn.1938" said:

didnt like his own argument about selling virginity of certain places ,probably sold ...

Also,I'm perfectly fine with my own argument from another thread.

If I recall correctly, you stated, that my build was trash, and I'm therefore also trash as a player. Which I won't deny, as I only play for 2 months, and I try to get better.

But yet I sincerely think, that

build diversity is what making this game precious.

If I'm able to come up with a build, which I think is super fun to play -- I will play it. And I don't really care, if I'm handicapping myself by 100-200 rating by doing that.

Some people do care, therefore they play the most effective and

broken

powerfull build there is. Like boon holo, boonbeast, or spb.

Some people actually find these builds fun. Some don't and only play it to achieve rating. And thats exactly why I came up with this analogy of selling the "virginity of certain places for another 100 rating".

I didn't mean ALL the players with high rating, nor did I mean ALL the players who play meta builds.

And yet you STILL took the offence personally. Not sure why, but I have a couple of guesses.

(and I'm not even sure you are high rated, at least you're certainly not in top 250)

I havent said you are trash player right away , I said build is . Your arguments and your own announcement about your rating led to it . I even explained why ,but could point out your statement doesnt go well with your posted video . Even there your statement about x3 interrupt at once wasnt confirmed , unless you meant downedstate which attacks cant be interrupted for real but count as one. Even on your video you cant land sword ambush being meleeA no I didnt take it personally dw.Its just ridiculous how mad you become because I mentioned your rating xD . I was more offended by nonsense you talk back to me , you can find it in your thread

[Megametzler.5729]

Play condi ele and you will never be called OP again!

You are still going to get flamed though for not being able to carry hard enough. :lol:

On a side node: Weakness applies to all hits since 2013.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

You dodge power burst you're safe for the next couple dozen seconds.

You cleanse condis you're struck with another batch immediately after.