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Stealth Rework 2.0


Swagger.1459

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I like the idea and it does indeed need more polish.

How about a permanent concentration check (your concentration stats vs. the invisible person's) that only shows orange dots in a radius? The higher it is versus theirs, the more more times it updates as to where the dots are. It can also have a chance to "critically check" to make them target-able.Radius of checks are dependent on class + concentration value.Only the stealth caster's concentration value matters against these checks.Moving/using skills greatly decreases your chance to check. You have to stand still for a certain amount of time to maximize it.

Although the whole idea would make the tactic of veil/mass invis pushes irrelevant. I'm out of ideas on to balance this. Maybe make those skills immune to this? Or perhaps the maximum achievable concentration value would make it immune to checks? That would make some very specialized mesmer builds mandatory in ZvZ fights.

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I think req concentration as others have said is a bit crippling for many builds but I do like where you're going with stealth perception.

Maybe instead of a stat handling this it could be worked into the WvW Rank abilities instead.The more points invested into it the harder you are to spot and the easier it is to see others with less points invested.Or maybe some traits could be reworked in WvW such as Rangers Spotter which aside from granting a precision bonus also grants you a 5-10% chance to reveal a stealthed player when applied.

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@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:Everyone needs to stop trying to overcomplicate the solutions to stealth and just go with a simple fix if you want to ever see anything.

People are just too lazy to adapt builds to counter the thing thats killing them.Like i saw someone else say in another thread he doesnt want to waste a utility Just to counter De while he does have acces to counter it.Its like playing vs a condi build on warr and you dont want to use featherfoot or berserk util to counter the condi spamm.People dont want to adapt and think they should be able to counter every class and every spec on the build they currently run.DE can be countered by alot of classes if only they throw in reveal and learn when to use it.

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@Caedmon.6798 said:

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:Everyone needs to stop trying to overcomplicate the solutions to stealth and

People are just too lazy to adapt builds to counter the thing thats killing them.Like i saw someone else say in another thread he doesnt want to waste a utility Just to counter De while he does have acces to counter it.Its like playing vs a condi build on warr and you dont want to use featherfoot or berserk util to counter the condi spamm.People dont want to adapt and think they should be able to counter every class and every spec on the build they currently run.DE can be countered by alot of classes if only they throw in reveal and learn when to use it.

I think you need to learn about DE before you make comments like this... The community is not stupid.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Meld

“Remove revealed and stealth yourself.

Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.Maximum Count: 2Count Recharge: 45s”

Not every profession has reveal. DE can cleanse Revealed 2 times so it can be pointless to try unless it’s a team effort to reveal...

Edit- And before you call people “lazy” again, just realize that it’s you not putting in the effort to learn about the game...

Path of Fire was released 9/22/17...

My thread from 9/15/17

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/1521/shadow-meld-making-stealth-mechanics-even-worse

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@Swagger.1459 said:In addition to increasing boon duration, Concentration could be a stat that provides a player Stealth “perception”....

... and in addition with high concentration your character will ignore aegis (or blocks in general), dodges and protection. Maybe there can even be a Neo/Matrix mode (with 100% concentration) where the character can activate slow motion, stop projectiles, fly, revive other players (ok nvm the last one...)...

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:Everyone needs to stop trying to overcomplicate the solutions to stealth and

People are just too lazy to adapt builds to counter the thing thats killing them.Like i saw someone else say in another thread he doesnt want to waste a utility Just to counter De while he does have acces to counter it.Its like playing vs a condi build on warr and you dont want to use featherfoot or berserk util to counter the condi spamm.People dont want to adapt and think they should be able to counter every class and every spec on the build they currently run.DE can be countered by alot of classes if only they throw in reveal and learn when to use it.

I think you need to learn about DE before you make comments like this... The community is not stupid.

“Remove revealed and stealth yourself.

Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.Maximum Count: 2Count Recharge: 45s”

Not every profession has reveal. DE can cleanse Revealed 2 times so it can be pointless to try unless it’s a team effort to reveal...

Edit- And before you call people “lazy” again, just realize that it’s you not putting in the effort to learn about the game...

Path of Fire was released 9/22/17...

My thread from 9/15/17

I play DE myself.I do think its lazy if people that Do have the tools to counter choose not to do so because they have to waste another utility for it.I also didnt say Every class has reveal.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

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@Caedmon.6798 said:

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:Everyone needs to stop trying to overcomplicate the solutions to stealth and

People are just too lazy to adapt builds to counter the thing thats killing them.Like i saw someone else say in another thread he doesnt want to waste a utility Just to counter De while he does have acces to counter it.Its like playing vs a condi build on warr and you dont want to use featherfoot or berserk util to counter the condi spamm.People dont want to adapt and think they should be able to counter every class and every spec on the build they currently run.DE can be countered by alot of classes if only they throw in reveal and learn when to use it.

I think you need to learn about DE before you make comments like this... The community is not stupid.

“Remove revealed and stealth yourself.

Stealth (3s): Currently invisible. Ends if you deal damage.Maximum Count: 2Count Recharge: 45s”

Not every profession has reveal. DE can cleanse Revealed 2 times so it can be pointless to try unless it’s a team effort to reveal...

Edit- And before you call people “lazy” again, just realize that it’s you not putting in the effort to learn about the game...

Path of Fire was released 9/22/17...

My thread from 9/15/17

I play DE myself.I do think its lazy if people that Do have the tools to counter choose not to do so because they have to waste another utility for it.I also didnt say Every class has reveal.

Sorry, but players aren’t being “lazy”, it just certain players, like you, don’t care about balance and would prefer to keep their crutches.

This topic is bigger than DE anyway, it’s about stealth as a whole, and it’s about stealth reworks that are more developed for wvw and spvp modes.

I honestly don’t care about thief defenders of stealth here, that profession has the absolute best mobility and positioning skills in the game, and thief can be extremely successful with minimal stealth use due to mobility and high damage output... Getting revealed on thief is easy to deal with, you just bail... and can bail easily.

Again, you may not care about having balanced mechanics, but some of us do.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:So basicly, concentration make you squint harder to see stealth.

That actually makes sense.

Lol basically...

In game terms is could be explained as... “Concentration enhances your senses to be able to detect and perceive invisible foes...” or whatever.

wouldnt the thief with concentration also be better at stealthing so you wouldnt see him if you tried? basically 100% concentraion on both = normal stealth?

No, then the thief can simply see other thieves. It shouldnt negate other peoples conc.

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  • 11 months later...

Doesn't need any rework at this time.

Community already voted on which classes are the most overturned.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87656/which-pof-profession-would-you-nerf

I've linked this before. There are always groups of players that hate thieves. But most people think that other classes are far more unbalanced.

@"Swagger.1459"Your rework ideas don't provide suitable compensation for what you're taking away from thief. You wish to nerf stealth into the ground which is fine if that's what you want. But what are you giving in return? 20% damage reduction is laughable. I'm assuming this is a mistake and you'll rectify it by providing other examples of more damage invulns for thief. Or perhaps more protection up time? 20% damage reduction is not a fair exchange when the class has 11k base hp, with a weapon that relies on hitting a target from behind, which would become 100% impossible with your "rework".

Or are you implying that the class that received 5% of community votes in a thread asking which PoF class needs a nerf is in fact the most overpowered class? And that the other 95% of the community who didn't vote DE are wrong? Or perhaps 95% Of those voters are all thief players?

A rework implies a change that doesn't Nerf the class but changes the way it functions. You're thread is not a stealth rework. Its a plz nerf thief into the ground thread.

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I'm not really sure if the stealth mechanics need to be reworked overall just because a boring elite spec was introduced. I'd rather see the elite spec reworked to have another theme. With the exception of things like countering reveals or how certain builds can stack stealth the stealth-reveal mechanics themselves in GW2 are rather enjoyable and tends to work pretty fine. The issues with stealth is almost always limited to specific Thief builds and then it is more a question of figuring out what they are supposed to do instead since they also almost always are very dependent upon that kind of stealth. Daredevil was a nice addition to the Thief class whereas Deadeye was problem-ridden from the get-go, it's just a bad theme for PvP.

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@"Doug.4930" said:Doesn't need any rework at this time.

Community already voted on which classes are the most overturned.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87656/which-pof-profession-would-you-nerf

I've linked this before. There are always groups of players that hate thieves. But most people think that other classes are far more unbalanced.

@"Swagger.1459"Your rework ideas don't provide suitable compensation for what you're taking away from thief. You wish to nerf stealth into the ground which is fine if that's what you want. But what are you giving in return? 20% damage reduction is laughable. I'm assuming this is a mistake and you'll rectify it by providing other examples of more damage invulns for thief. Or perhaps more protection up time? 20% damage reduction is not a fair exchange when the class has 11k base hp, with a weapon that relies on hitting a target from behind, which would become 100% impossible with your "rework".

Or are you implying that the class that received 5% of community votes in a thread asking which PoF class needs a nerf is in fact the most overpowered class? And that the other 95% of the community who didn't vote DE are wrong? Or perhaps 95% Of those voters are all thief players?

A rework implies a change that doesn't Nerf the class but changes the way it functions. You're thread is not a stealth rework. Its a plz nerf thief into the ground thread.

Let me break this down for you....

Thief can sit in stealth prior to attacking.

Thief can port in, or range with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth_Attack

Thief is now in-combat and revealed. Whatever Stealth skill used keeps on ticking to provide a damage mitigation "cloak" for the duration.

Thief needs to run, then they use their toolbox of skills that lets them run away easily.

Yes, Thief starts with BASE 11k HP, and so does Ele and Guardian. It's not like gear with Vitality doesn't exist, or the plethora of runes, sigils, foods and infusions.. that provide Vitality either.

Thief has the top mobility and positioning skills in the game, along with the plethora of evades. And those are their strongest defenses and damage mitigation skills.

…. Seriously, those who have been playing long enough know there is no "poor thief". Yup, Thief team based builds suck by comparison, but let's not qq about the fighting prowess here, because some of us aren't that naïve. And a Stealth change affects all Stealth skills, not just on Thief.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Doug.4930" said:Doesn't need any rework at this time.

Community already voted on which classes are the most overturned.

I've linked this before. There are always groups of players that hate thieves. But most people think that other classes are far more unbalanced.

@Swagger.1459Your rework ideas don't provide suitable compensation for what you're taking away from thief. You wish to nerf stealth into the ground which is fine if that's what you want. But what are you giving in return? 20% damage reduction is laughable. I'm assuming this is a mistake and you'll rectify it by providing other examples of more damage invulns for thief. Or perhaps more protection up time? 20% damage reduction is not a fair exchange when the class has 11k base hp, with a weapon that relies on hitting a target from behind, which would become 100% impossible with your "rework".

Or are you implying that the class that received 5% of community votes in a thread asking which PoF class needs a nerf is in fact the most overpowered class? And that the other 95% of the community who didn't vote DE are wrong? Or perhaps 95% Of those voters are all thief players?

A rework implies a change that doesn't Nerf the class but changes the way it functions. You're thread is not a stealth rework. Its a plz nerf thief into the ground thread.

Let me break this down for you....

Thief can sit in stealth prior to attacking.

Thief can port in, or range with

Thief is now in-combat and revealed. Whatever Stealth skill used keeps on ticking to provide a damage mitigation "cloak" for the duration.

Thief needs to run, then they use their toolbox of skills that lets them run away easily.

Yes, Thief starts with BASE 11k HP, and so does Ele and Guardian. It's not like gear with Vitality doesn't exist, or the plethora of runes, sigils, foods and infusions.. that provide Vitality either.

Thief has the top mobility and positioning skills in the game, along with the plethora of evades. And those are their strongest defenses and damage mitigation skills.

…. Seriously, those who have been playing long enough know there is no "poor thief". Yup, Thief team based builds suck by comparison, but let's not qq about the fighting prowess here, because some of us aren't that naïve. And a Stealth change affects all Stealth skills, not just on Thief.

And yet they only received 7 out of 118 votes: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87656/which-pof-profession-would-you-nerfCare to explain why that is?

EDIT: I don't hope to convince you, I'm just linking this thread so If an anet dev reads posts like yours, they are constantly directed to a polling thread that shows what the majority of players really think about thief. People that hate thief make a lot of noise. But are the minority. Your thread will be buried like all the others that lack substance and reasoning, and simply aim to nerf the class they hate fighting.

@Turk.5460 said:I'm sorry you dislike Thieves so much, OP.

What he said.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

Give them bigger base hp, invuls, blocks, stab, resistance, retal, the works. That is what will probably happen. Gutting stealth will undoubtedly buff it in another direction that will make people scream endlessly into pillows lol.

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I already build with damage reduction plus DR from revealed and it really only buys me a second or two to scramble out of a pile of circles, I need more in return for giving up my position, likely having to dedicate and consistently use utility slots to close distance with Quickeness to land Stealth attacks, and then hope I've hit some passable damage threshold to maybe hurt someone If I've somehow got close enough.

You can limit my stealth stack duration before cutting off my use of Stealth Attacks at something like 4-6 seconds maybe and I'd still be fine with using long duration stealth for masked travel only. This idea just feels like saying, 'you thieves go ahead and fuck up your builds to maybe have chance to kill us when there's not a whole squad around but give us more so we can leave our builds alone'.

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@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

Give them bigger base hp, invuls, blocks, stab, resistance, retal, the works. That is what will probably happen. Gutting stealth will undoubtedly buff it in another direction that will make people scream endlessly into pillows lol.

Id take all of that over freak'n getting nuked from no where.

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@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Just remove stealth and give thieves and messmers compensation for it with something different. Stealth has always been a horrible mechanic plagued by the fact ontop of stealth the classes in question get other cool toys to play with ontop of stealth.

Give them bigger base hp, invuls, blocks, stab, resistance, retal, the works. That is what will probably happen. Gutting stealth will undoubtedly buff it in another direction that will make people scream endlessly into pillows lol.

Sorry, but the proposal doesn’t involve “gutting stealth”. It makes stealth mechanic more balanced, have more counter play and provides damage mitigation buffs too.

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