Superior Runes of Sanctuary & Abrasive Grit [merged]

[Protostellar.4981]

The new Superior Rune of Sanctuary works for Life Steal. Hence Scourges, through Abrasive Grit (which grants an ally a barrier and removes a condition affecting them, and grants might) combined with the rune's six-ability (gain a barrier equal to 20% of the value of incoming heals), means a scourge can now easily stack 25 Might and then continuously clean one condition per second off of themselves.https://clips.twitch.tv/YawningBelovedGazelleOSfrogThis is completely and utterly broken in any kind of competitive gameplay, in PvP and WvW.

[aspirine.6852]

Hahah yes that looks absolutely broken.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@"Protostellar.4981" said:The new Superior Rune of Sanctuary works for Life Steal. Hence Scourges, through Abrasive Grit (which grants an ally a barrier and removes a condition affecting them, and grants might) combined with the rune's six-ability (gain a barrier equal to 20% of the value of incoming heals), means a scourge can now easily stack 25 Might and then continuously clean one condition per second off of themselves.https://clips.twitch.tv/YawningBelovedGazelleOSfrogThis is completely and utterly broken in any kind of competitive gameplay, in PvP and WvW.

Faster than 1/second. It's 1/hit. Life Siphon on Dagger 2 hits 9 times in 1.75 seconds.

The best way to fix it is to make it so Vampiric and Vampiric Presence don't trigger the rune. Also making it so ressing doesn't trigger the rune.

Runes of Sanctuary already do not trigger off of the Regeneration boon, so it can certainly be coded to ignore particular sources of healing.

[santso.9201]

Only way to fix it is to add icd.

[Straegen.2938]

Grinding through the barrier on some Necros post patch has been "interesting".

[Orthonen.9470]

Yes I don't play necro but last night I was with a group doing this on my my firebrand and it was indeed broken. 1tiny heal 1 shield generated for my beloved necro buddies.The tag leading my squad on discord decided to make everyone do HotW as a result so his guild members get tokens via reward track for them.

[Hesacon.8735]

I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds like blood magic leads to 25 stacks of might in a few seconds?

Does it work with minions? If so, there might finally be a minion build that isn't terrible.

I agree that it could be oppressive in wvw, though honestly a lot of runes are until they rebalance.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"Hesacon.8735" said:I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds like blood magic leads to 25 stacks of might in a few seconds?

Does it work with minions? If so, there might finally be a minion build that isn't terrible.

I agree that it could be oppressive in wvw, though honestly a lot of runes are until they rebalance.

It works off this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abrasive_Grit

The rune 6pc ability gives you a barrier worth 20% of any incoming heal you receive. Running Blood Magic, a Necromancer's life siphon provides a heal which procs the Rune for barrier which then procs Abrasive Grit

1. Necro attack procs life siphon
2. Heal is received
3. Heal procs Rune of Sanctuary granting barrier
4. Barrier procs the Abrasive Grit trait granting a stack of might + removing 1 condition
5. Wash, Rinse and Repeat.

As you get a steady flow of heals from doing damage via life siphon, you keep procing the rune whose barrier keeps procing Abrasive Grit, stacking you with might and continuously removing conditions.

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Hesacon.8735" said:I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds like blood magic leads to 25 stacks of might in a few seconds?

Does it work with minions? If so, there might finally be a minion build that isn't terrible.

I agree that it could be oppressive in wvw, though honestly a lot of runes are until they rebalance.

It works off this:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abrasive_Grit

The rune 6pc ability gives you a barrier worth 20% of any incoming heal you receive. Running Blood Magic, a Necromancer's life siphon provides a heal which procs the Rune for barrier which then procs Abrasive Grit

1. Necro attack procs life siphon
2. Heal is received
3. Heal procs Rune of Sanctuary granting barrier
4. Barrier procs the Abrasive Grit trait granting a stack of might + removing 1 condition
5. Wash, Rinse and Repeat.

As you get a steady flow of heals from doing damage via life siphon, you keep procing the rune whose barrier keeps procing Abrasive Grit, stacking you with might and continuously removing conditions.

I absolutely love the concept of these synergy chains, but wow this needs some kind of nerf! A 1 sec ICD on either the rune effect or Abrasive Grit seems more than reasonable, would that rein it in to "effective combo" instead of just bonkers bananapants?

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Tanner Blackfeather.6509 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Hesacon.8735" said:I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds like blood magic leads to 25 stacks of might in a few seconds?

Does it work with minions? If so, there might finally be a minion build that isn't terrible.

I agree that it could be oppressive in wvw, though honestly a lot of runes are until they rebalance.

It works off this:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abrasive_Grit

The rune 6pc ability gives you a barrier worth 20% of any incoming heal you receive. Running Blood Magic, a Necromancer's life siphon provides a heal which procs the Rune for barrier which then procs Abrasive Grit

1. Necro attack procs life siphon
2. Heal is received
3. Heal procs Rune of Sanctuary granting barrier
4. Barrier procs the Abrasive Grit trait granting a stack of might + removing 1 condition
5. Wash, Rinse and Repeat.

As you get a steady flow of heals from doing damage via life siphon, you keep procing the rune whose barrier keeps procing Abrasive Grit, stacking you with might and continuously removing conditions.

I absolutely

love

the concept of these synergy chains, but

wow

this needs some kind of nerf! A 1 sec ICD on either the rune effect or Abrasive Grit seems more than reasonable, would that rein it in to "effective combo" instead of just bonkers bananapants?

As mentioned above, apparently this rune doesn't proc off of regeneration, so they could fix it to ignore the healing from life siphon as well, but they still need to address Abrasive Grit, because imagine a squad with Power Scourges running this rune, and multiple Firebrands running Signet of Courage which spits out an AoE heal every 3s; you would end up with almost the same problem - Necros running 25 stacks of might while passively cleansing a condition every 3 seconds.

[perilisk.1874]

Would be nice if they took the opportunity to make lifesteal it's own effect, rather just damage plus heal. But much more likely they'll just add a cooldown to abrasive grit.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Tanner Blackfeather.6509 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Hesacon.8735" said:I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds like blood magic leads to 25 stacks of might in a few seconds?

Does it work with minions? If so, there might finally be a minion build that isn't terrible.

I agree that it could be oppressive in wvw, though honestly a lot of runes are until they rebalance.

It works off this:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abrasive_Grit

The rune 6pc ability gives you a barrier worth 20% of any incoming heal you receive. Running Blood Magic, a Necromancer's life siphon provides a heal which procs the Rune for barrier which then procs Abrasive Grit

1. Necro attack procs life siphon
2. Heal is received
3. Heal procs Rune of Sanctuary granting barrier
4. Barrier procs the Abrasive Grit trait granting a stack of might + removing 1 condition
5. Wash, Rinse and Repeat.

As you get a steady flow of heals from doing damage via life siphon, you keep procing the rune whose barrier keeps procing Abrasive Grit, stacking you with might and continuously removing conditions.

I absolutely

love

the concept of these synergy chains, but

wow

this needs some kind of nerf! A 1 sec ICD on either the rune effect or Abrasive Grit seems more than reasonable, would that rein it in to "effective combo" instead of just bonkers bananapants?

ICD to the trait, not the rune.ICD on the trait changes nothing outside that broken interaction. It still works fine without the rune. When you add it to the rune it becomes completely pointless. Regeneration just renders the rune useless as it wastes barrier procs and you can't control incoming healing from other players.

[TexZero.7910]

@Miellyn.6847 said:ICD to the trait, not the rune.ICD on the trait changes nothing outside that broken interaction. It still works fine without the rune. When you add it to the rune it becomes completely pointless. Regeneration just renders the rune useless as it wastes barrier procs and you can't control incoming healing from other players.

I happen to disagree with this. The trait wasn't problematic before the rune existed so nerfing it doesn't address the runes innate issue.What Sanctuary needs is another conditional statement be it an ICD or stipulating Outside Healing grants barriers.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Tanner Blackfeather.6509 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Hesacon.8735" said:I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds like blood magic leads to 25 stacks of might in a few seconds?

Does it work with minions? If so, there might finally be a minion build that isn't terrible.

I agree that it could be oppressive in wvw, though honestly a lot of runes are until they rebalance.

It works off this:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abrasive_Grit

The rune 6pc ability gives you a barrier worth 20% of any incoming heal you receive. Running Blood Magic, a Necromancer's life siphon provides a heal which procs the Rune for barrier which then procs Abrasive Grit

1. Necro attack procs life siphon
2. Heal is received
3. Heal procs Rune of Sanctuary granting barrier
4. Barrier procs the Abrasive Grit trait granting a stack of might + removing 1 condition
5. Wash, Rinse and Repeat.

As you get a steady flow of heals from doing damage via life siphon, you keep procing the rune whose barrier keeps procing Abrasive Grit, stacking you with might and continuously removing conditions.

I absolutely

love

the concept of these synergy chains, but

wow

this needs some kind of nerf! A 1 sec ICD on either the rune effect or Abrasive Grit seems more than reasonable, would that rein it in to "effective combo" instead of just bonkers bananapants?

ICD to the trait, not the rune.ICD on the trait changes nothing outside that broken interaction. It still works fine without the rune. When you add it to the rune it becomes completely pointless. Regeneration just renders the rune useless as it wastes barrier procs and you can't control incoming healing from other players.

Nah. Get out of here demanding necro nerfs instead of nerfs to this rune which would be overtuned even without this interaction. Even without the life steal AG interaction Scourges did not need effectively 20% more healing from their pocket firebrands.

[mixxed.5862]

The best solution would be to prevent any barrier granted by the rune from procing Abrasive Grit. It's the interaction that's broken.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

I'm trying to get a feel for this thread. Is there a bug? Is something truly *broken?" Or, and I suspect this is more accurate, do some of you disagree with the changes? I'm asking that true bug reports be placed in the Bug Subforum, because that's where they will get the most traction on getting fixed.

If this is a feedback thread, then pardon the intrusion but a small suggestion: Please avoid the word "broken" for things that are simply, subjectively, not to your liking, that might need different stats, that could, in your opinion, use a balance review. Those are valid comments, but it would be good to allow bug fix suggestions and feedback and input to be reviewed properly. Thanks.

[Brandr Skjoldulfr.4810]

The term "broken" has been used as a way of describing incredibly unbalanced aspects of gameplay for over two decades, either for something so overpowered that nothing can compete (like the combo in this thread) or for something so underpowered that nothing you do can make it useful at all.I understand that it may come across as confusing, but when read in context it makes perfect sense. If you want to, you could change the word "Broken" in the title to "Overpowered".

[Nightshade.2570]

You know I dont want it changed because there are tons of otehr things out of control and barrier and might hardly seem like they should be the focus. however if it is nerfed which Im sure it will be, Please DO NOT penalize the necros for the rune change. The rune should be changed NOT our traitline.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

@"Brandr Skjoldulfr.4810" said:The term "broken" has been used as a way of describing incredibly unbalanced aspects of gameplay for over two decades, either for something so overpowered that nothing can compete (like the combo in this thread) or for something so underpowered that nothing you do can make it useful at all.I understand that it may come across as confusing, but when read in context it makes perfect sense. If you want to, you could change the word "Broken" in the title to "Overpowered".

I do understand using the term "broken" is an easy catchphrase for "overpowered" or "underpowered" or "unbalanced." (Anyone who's been in the industry for 20+ years sorta knows that. ;) ;) )

Sure, in context the intended use of the word can be clear, at least in most cases. But I'm looking at efficiency, and aiding people in reviewing feedback. For that purpose, it would be super helpful to use the correct term in the title, so that the right people can focus on the proper aspects of the game and not be required to dig into a thread with a "What does 'broken' mean this time? OP? UP? Unbalanced?" question in their minds.

I'm agreeing with you that using OP would be best in this instance, so I've amended the title to reflect that intention. Thanks for the helpful advice.

[meri.9187]

Necromancers with Superior Runes of Sanctuary are Broken BustedNecromancers with Superior Runes of Sanctuary are Broken Extremely ImbalancedNecromancers with Superior Runes of Sanctuary are Broken OverpoweredNecromancers with Superior Runes of Sanctuary are Broken NOT FIXED

[Jeknar.6184]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:I'm trying to get a feel for this thread. Is there a bug? Is something truly *broken?" Or, and I suspect this is more accurate, do some of you disagree with the changes? I'm asking that true bug reports be placed in the Bug Subforum, because that's where they will get the most traction on getting fixed.

If this is a feedback thread, then pardon the intrusion but a small suggestion: Please avoid the word "broken" for things that are simply, subjectively, not to your liking, that might need different stats, that could, in your opinion, use a balance review. Those are valid comments, but it would be good to allow bug fix suggestions and feedback and input to be reviewed properly. Thanks.

Hello Gaile. People been using the term broken for things that are extremely imbalanced for a while now because the interaction is considerated "Game Breaking"... I'm pretty sure that if it was a bugged interaction, people will simply call it, well, bugged.

Right now we have:Runes of Sanctuary are broken (Game breaking interaction with Abrasive Grit)Runes of Tormenting are bugged (Currently healing in every condition application instead of only tormenting)

I'm pretty sure the majority of the players will agree with these terms, although there will be people that will simply call everything broken for no reason.

[lodjur.1284]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@"Brandr Skjoldulfr.4810" said:The term "broken" has been used as a way of describing incredibly unbalanced aspects of gameplay for over two decades, either for something so overpowered that nothing can compete (like the combo in this thread) or for something so underpowered that nothing you do can make it useful at all.I understand that it may come across as confusing, but when read in context it makes perfect sense. If you want to, you could change the word "Broken" in the title to "Overpowered".

I do understand using the term "broken" is an easy catchphrase for "overpowered" or "underpowered" or "unbalanced." (Anyone who's been in the industry for 20+ years sorta knows that. ;) ;) )

Sure, in context the intended use of the word can be clear, at least in most cases. But I'm looking at efficiency, and aiding people in reviewing feedback. For that purpose, it would be super helpful to use the correct term

in the title

, so that the right people can focus on the proper aspects of the game and not be required to dig into a thread with a "What does 'broken' mean this time? OP? UP? Unbalanced?" question in their minds.

I'm agreeing with you that using OP would be best in this instance, so I've amended the title to reflect that intention. Thanks for the helpful advice.

Imo I would say broken fits better here as I assume it's an unintended and overlooked interaction. Not a bug as everything does exactly what it says it should. I would also say that overpowered doesn't quite cover it in these kinda cases as this is an overlooked interaction, not an anticipated but wrongly judged (in strength) interaction.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Looks pretty broken lol. Still have no problem killing necros quickly on soulbeasts or revs. They do have a counter (they've always had a counter), it's just that squads seem to think they need to overstack themselves with firebrands and scourges. This is actually quite easy to deal with, even for a smaller group.

The overpowered issue seems more to be the constant removal of conditions, as it's always been easy to maintain 25 stacks of might in a group. Keep in mind though just how fast conditions light people up. Remembering the volume of complaints from people in regards to just how fast someone dies when being lit up with conditions by only a couple of scourges.. is Abrasive Grit really going to cleanse faster than a mass condition bomb?

Also keep in mind, necros are highly subsceptible to ranged classes (something squads don't seem to like to run).

If something needs to change, the rune needs to change, none of the necro traits.

[perilisk.1874]

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Necromancers with Superior Runes of Sanctuary are Broken BustedNecromancers with Superior Runes of Sanctuary are Broken Extremely ImbalancedNecromancers with Superior Runes of Sanctuary are Broken OverpoweredNecromancers with Superior Runes of Sanctuary are Broken NOT FIXED

I think we need a new word for this. I suggest "hilarimba".

[perilisk.1874]

I wonder if putting a minimum barrier threshold to trigger abrasive grit is the right fix?

Most legitimate sources of scourge barrier (class skills and punishment skills) will put out a reasonable amount even on 0 healing power. It's an e-spec, so we don't have worry about breaking leveling characters with lower numbers. The barrier being applied with Sanc is 20% of each heal, and the problem heals (from lifesteal attacks) are individually pretty small as well. A 200 point threshold or so would probably fix it? It should cover most any barrier from actual scourge mechanics, plus any from the rune that are triggered by heals of 1000 of more.