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Superior Runes of Sanctuary & Abrasive Grit [merged]


Protostellar.4981

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I never cared about the might application of it that much, and unless you space your barriers perfectly its a nerf to might gen. For how my support scourge friend plays its a nerf on all fronts. Do the maths, if you apply 2 lots of barrier within 5 seconds its gone from 4 stacks for 6 seconds to 3 stacks for 8 seconds which is the breakeven point, so in the above example where your stacking barrier 3x its a loss of might.

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They did the sensible thing because that trait should have had an ICD to begin with and just because 1 class is abusing something on steroids doesn't mean the entire fucking thing should get nerfed. It's always you you you, think of the other classes. Besides that this was a literal hotfix, it doesn't have to stay this way forever. For now, you won't abuse it because that was obscene, you can admit as much.

I don't think they could simply add a minimum amount of heal for it to trigger, there is nothing else like that in the game just yet. Would just complicate it too much for the sake of not simply nerfing an OP interaction. The other option would be to change vampirism effects, but that would cause even more issues. Why? Because that would mean that this healing effect would have to be rewritten to no longer be classified as such, which in turn opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

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@Blocki.4931 The fix was not sensible as it was a broken interaction easily fixable, breaking an important trait that was not even nearly overpowered to avoid a harder but more balanced fix is never a fix. If you want to think of other classes then think of necromancers who were needlessly nerfed. As someone who no longer plays there necromancer much and even when I did I did not use that trait, I'm calling out how bad the change is because I know other players did use it and it is not fair to them.

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@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"Copperheart.9517" said:Yeah. That’s actually pretty stupid. The problem was the rune. But you know NERF NECRO is like very other patch. So not all that surprised.

Sorta seems logical on my end...Either remove the rune so 26/27 classes miss out because of the one spec or just put an ICD on that 1 spec so all 27 specs can use it without breaking the game.

We can get emotional over it sure, but it won't do much. From a logical stand point, yes you would normally go to a source of the problem but in this case it just happened to be 1/27 specs was breaking the game, logical choice in this situation is to change that outlier rather than scrap the whole project and start again.

All 27 "specs" aren't going to use it and will likely never use it. Don't kid yourself.

This isn't GW1 where wild experimentation is a viable thing.

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@Substance E.4852 said:

@"Copperheart.9517" said:Yeah. That’s actually pretty stupid. The problem was the rune. But you know NERF NECRO is like very other patch. So not all that surprised.

Sorta seems logical on my end...Either remove the rune so 26/27 classes miss out because of the one spec or just put an ICD on that 1 spec so all 27 specs can use it without breaking the game.

We can get emotional over it sure, but it won't do much. From a logical stand point, yes you would normally go to a source of the problem but in this case it just happened to be 1/27 specs was breaking the game, logical choice in this situation is to change that outlier rather than scrap the whole project and start again.

All 27 "specs" aren't going to use it and will likely never use it. Don't kid yourself.

This isn't GW1 where wild experimentation is a viable thing.

I never said it was mandatory... geez Luis that was a huge leap.

Also you must be in the top 200 because wild experimentation works well on everyone else below that mark, assuming the player isnt a dud.

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@Blocki.4931 said:They did the sensible thing because that trait should have had an ICD to begin with and just because 1 class is abusing something on steroids doesn't mean the entire kitten thing should get nerfed. It's always you you you, think of the other classes. Besides that this was a literal hotfix, it doesn't have to stay this way forever. For now, you won't abuse it because that was obscene, you can admit as much.

I don't think they could simply add a minimum amount of heal for it to trigger, there is nothing else like that in the game just yet. Would just complicate it too much for the sake of not simply nerfing an OP interaction. The other option would be to change vampirism effects, but that would cause even more issues. Why? Because that would mean that this healing effect would have to be rewritten to no longer be classified as such, which in turn opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

Or option 3 which you've ignored.

Put an ICD or another meaningful trigger on the rune just like the rest of the runes.Literally every rune, even Defender that has a strong 6th effect has an ICD. This one clearly deserves the same treatment as the lack of an ICD was proving to cause the issue, not the trait.

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@TexZero.7910 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:They did the sensible thing because that trait should have had an ICD to begin with and just because 1 class is abusing something on steroids doesn't mean the entire kitten thing should get nerfed. It's always you you you, think of the other classes. Besides that this was a literal hotfix, it doesn't have to stay this way forever. For now, you won't abuse it because that was obscene, you can admit as much.

I don't think they could simply add a minimum amount of heal for it to trigger, there is nothing else like that in the game just yet. Would just complicate it too much for the sake of not simply nerfing an OP interaction. The other option would be to change vampirism effects, but that would cause even more issues. Why? Because that would mean that this healing effect would have to be rewritten to no longer be classified as such, which in turn opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

Or option 3 which you've ignored.

Put an ICD or another meaningful trigger on the rune just like the rest of the runes.Literally every rune, even Defender that has a strong 6th effect has an ICD. This one clearly deserves the same treatment as the lack of an ICD was proving to cause the issue, not the trait.

Agreed, it was the lack of an icd on the rune that made it broken

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@Hitman.5829 said:

@Hitman.5829 said:That trait was too OP to start with.It removes conditions, it grants might, and it does all that to allies as well.

It was never OP because we dont had that frecuency to get barriers, what are you talking about?

The solution was to nerf the rune, no the trait. They buffed the might for compensation, but the condition removal stays the same.

So, remove a condition every 5 seconds, what a dumb solution...

Have you counted the number of necros in WvW?Multiply each by 5 and you get the number of allies affected by this trait.The trait was OP and it needed nerfing.

Im surprise it took anet this long to nerf this trait.

Wait so if we have that number of chronos will we have 1 day of every boon? Or if we have that many druid will we have 100k heal per second? Or that many holo to have perma cc chain the enemy zerg? Nerf?

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@ZDragon.3046 said:I called the fact that this would happen its unlikely that the rune would get removed cause its not that strong in any other portion of the game on any other profession So it makes more sense to look at the problem trait causing the fuss.They had 2 options really1: Remove the rune from pvp or the game entirely (which invalidates it without even giving it a real testing period, this wont be the only rune that causes changes)-or-2:Add a cooldown to Abrasive Grit and leave the rune alone for now and see how things go

To be fair any scourge who was using this set up with the run was using abrasive grit in a purpose that it was not intended. It was intended to be a supportive trait and the unintended function with the rune turned it into a selfish trait.

While i think 5 seconds might be a bit too high (I was more so betting on 3 seconds) Without this rune who actually ran this trait commonly and if you did how often were you really applying barrier on yourself to make use of the condition cleanse and might generation. Even if you were supporting allies with it how often do you really think you were able to dump out barrier in a realistic manner. It was likely not 2-4 times every other second.

My final thoughts are that the new icd was needed but 5 seconds is a bit to high maybe we can see a pve split that keeps it fictional respectably in the that mode. If the rune is removed then i see no reason why the change cant be reverted.

You forgot option 3: make Rune of the Sanctuary specifically not proc Abrasive Grit. Perhaps they code the rune as another source for the barrier rather than the player, keeping Abrasive Grit from proccing as the player is not applying the barrier. Perhaps they put a minimum barrier value on Abrasive Grit that is high enough to cover every single skill/trait that grants Barrier, but not Rune+Vampiric Aura. There are more ways they could have done it.

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@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"Copperheart.9517" said:Yeah. That’s actually pretty stupid. The problem was the rune. But you know NERF NECRO is like very other patch. So not all that surprised.

Sorta seems logical on my end...Either remove the rune so 26/27 classes miss out because of the one spec or just put an ICD on that 1 spec so all 27 specs can use it without breaking the game.

We can get emotional over it sure, but it won't do much. From a logical stand point, yes you would normally go to a source of the problem but in this case it just happened to be 1/27 specs was breaking the game, logical choice in this situation is to change that outlier rather than scrap the whole project and start again.

Yea emphasis on "sorta". The rune change is new. Making it's impact relatively minor if it was to change again. It doesn't seem like it was fully tested before it was put in, or they did test and shrugged. So instead of going back to properly correct that new mistake, they make changes to already working things. For a refreshed rune other classes may or may not use in the long run.

It's logical in the sense of a panic quick fix to an issue they overlooked. Unless this was all fully planned out. Unless they are dead set on this rune staying the way it is, and this necro change is them simply tying looses ends instead of scrambling to correct. This is on the lower end of logical.

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@DiabolicalHamSandwich.8756 said:

@"Copperheart.9517" said:Yeah. That’s actually pretty stupid. The problem was the rune. But you know NERF NECRO is like very other patch. So not all that surprised.

Sorta seems logical on my end...Either remove the rune so 26/27 classes miss out because of the one spec or just put an ICD on that 1 spec so all 27 specs can use it without breaking the game.

We can get emotional over it sure, but it won't do much. From a logical stand point, yes you would normally go to a source of the problem but in this case it just happened to be 1/27 specs was breaking the game, logical choice in this situation is to change that outlier rather than scrap the whole project and start again.

Yea emphasis on "sorta". The rune change is new. Making it's impact relatively minor if it was to change again. It doesn't seem like it was fully tested before it was put in, or they did test and shrugged. So instead of going back to properly correct that new mistake, they make changes to already working things. For a refreshed rune other classes may or may not use in the long run.

It's logical in the sense of a panic quick fix to an issue they overlooked. Unless this was all fully planned out. Unless they are dead set on this rune staying the way it is, and this necro change is them simply tying looses ends instead of scrambling to correct. This is on the lower end of logical.

Sure it may be on the lower end of logic as an end user but as a company who has to spend money on man power, the work involved, reorganization of priorities and so forth it starts to look like a very logical decision... Especially looking at the bigger picture, rework a rune across 3 game modes and 26 specs or simply just adjust the 1 specific spec and specific trait.

Basic stuff for business owners actually.

If you had 2 piles of bricks at a total of 50 and one pile had 45 bricks while the other had 5, if you were asked to group the bricks together would you move 45 bricks to sit with the 5 or would you move the 5 bricks to sit with the 45?Id personally move the 5 bricks but if you think its more logical to move 45 then so be it.

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By design, the rune can be applied to all classes. But its op only when it interacts with abrasive grit. When one of the two needed a tweak...

Imo if players want to continue on this, first the players need a reason why they should tweak a functioning rune for all classes, over a specific trait; of a specific class, to win this one.

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@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:They did the sensible thing because that trait should have had an ICD to begin with and just because 1 class is abusing something on steroids doesn't mean the entire kitten thing should get nerfed. It's always you you you, think of the other classes. Besides that this was a literal hotfix, it doesn't have to stay this way forever. For now, you won't abuse it because that was obscene, you can admit as much.

I don't think they could simply add a minimum amount of heal for it to trigger, there is nothing else like that in the game just yet. Would just complicate it too much for the sake of not simply nerfing an OP interaction. The other option would be to change vampirism effects, but that would cause even more issues. Why? Because that would mean that this healing effect would have to be rewritten to no longer be classified as such, which in turn opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

Or option 3 which you've ignored.

Put an ICD or another meaningful trigger on the rune just like the rest of the runes.Literally every rune, even Defender that has a strong 6th effect has an ICD. This one clearly deserves the same treatment as the lack of an ICD was proving to cause the issue, not the trait.

Agreed, it was the lack of an icd on the rune that made it broken

The rune is not broken. The interaction with that trait was.The rune with an ICD is just useless. Every regeneration or life steal would proc it and waste the barrier of that 3k heal short after.

The only thing nerfed is condition cleanse. The might uptime in a group scenario is actually higher than pre-patch. So PvE support got actually buffed...

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Anet WTF?The problem was the rune interaction with the trait, not the trait. You just killed support scourge capabilities of cleansing conditions for allies, because you made a dumb decision with a rune. Do you even consider what you're doing or no? The trait was fine before the rune,why nerf it?This proves to me once more, you don't know how trait interactions on build works. To be honest I really have lost all hope with you.The smart thing was to remove the rune temporarely see what other interactions it has with other traits then reintroduce it with a change, not the nerf the trait because you did not predict an interaction.Now is impossible to chain barriers to get condi cleanse, and let's be honest here chaining barrier wasn't a problem before and neither is now, since a scourge realistically can only chain 4 barriers at top then it basically has all on cooldown (manifest sand shade when coupled desert empowerment, sand cascade, sand flare and desert shroud).

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The problem was the rune interaction with the trait, not the trait. Anet, you just killed support scourge capabilities of cleansing conditions for allies, because you made a dumb decision with a rune. Do you even consider what you're doing or no? The trait was fine before the rune,why nerf it?This proves to me once more, you don't know how trait interactions on build works. To be honest I really have lost all hope with you.The smart thing was to remove the rune temporarely see what other interactions it has with other traits then reintroduce it with a change, not the nerf the trait because you did not predict an interaction.Now is impossible to chain barriers to get condi cleanse, and let's be honest here chaining barrier wasn't a problem before and neither is now, since a scourge realistically can only chain 4 barriers at top then it basically has all on cooldown (manifest sand shade when coupled desert empowerment, sand cascade, sand flare and desert shroud).

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