Superior Runes of Sanctuary & Abrasive Grit [merged]

[Sephrim.5472]

When you are healed, you gain a barrier equal to 5% of your health. 5 second cooldown.

Fixed.

[santso.9201]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Will this change fix the crazy barrier uptime? Saw a 20 person guild grp in wvw last night all running this rune and everyone had barrier 100% of the time

No

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@santso.9201 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Will this change fix the crazy barrier uptime? Saw a 20 person guild grp in wvw last night all running this rune and everyone had barrier 100% of the time

No

Well then, it surely was a stupid change.

[santso.9201]

Thats why icd needs to Be in rune.

[Nimon.7840]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:I agree with all the other broken stuff you mentioned but they are mainly related to solo/small scale WvW roaming and sadly we are in the minority. It isn't a major concern like PvE or large Zerg fights in WvW or on point fights in PvP. I wish we were given more thought and priority though when it comes to balancing but unfortunately WvW is a multifaceted game mode that isn't easy to balance. They should have given us a new elite spec that is more focused on solo/small scale which would have made balancing better instead of another aoe slow sluggish short ranged Scourge.

Well we can't really blame ANet for giving us an e-spec that was supposed to be oriented toward support. The necromancer badly needed some support, it's just that nobody thought that ANet would give us unorthodox support. We can't blame ANet either for giving scourge some damage because we were sure that whatever support they give us it would be wasted without damage on top of it.

The only thing that can be blamed is their lack of foresight when they release things. Be it some of the e-specs mechanisms or some runesets, they definitely suffer from a huge lack of foresight which might be prevented by testing change on test servers before implementing them. Even releasing patch note before they implement the change might help them prevent such situations thanks to players feedback.

The scourge have a monopole on some mechanisms that make him "mandatory" in very specific niches. Outside of that he is below average at best, changes that make him weaker don't change the fact that they got the monopole of the mechanisms. Abrasive grit nerf make support scourge weaker in it's main role but don't change the fact that he got it's monopoly which mean more scourges will be needed for the same effect.

It's beyond me to see something balanced nerfed for the sake of something new due to unforseen interaction. How could it not be forseen?

The problem about this nerf is also:In good zergs or guildgroups you will always have 25might while fighting.Also you have firebrand supports to heal you and cleanse conditions like crazy.So both effects of abrasive grit are negated.Also you have to trade in bloodmagic on one necro in each group, which will result in him doing less damage, than the other necros. As well as loosing damage stats by choosing this rune over a berserkers rune or something else.

And next, if your firebrand sux, and is too bad to cleanse conditions, he will also fail to give proper stability.And if you get caught in a cc-chain, even this "op"interaction doesn't help you one bit.

And then there's something else: there's skillsplit. Why didn't they just need the interaction in spvp and wvw then.It's already easy to do almost everything solo as a necromancer in open world pve. The interaction wouldn't have changed anything

[moonboi.1764]

@santso.9201 said:Thats why icd needs to Be in rune.

Exactly. Further goes to show that I find it hard to believe they tested it before release and still missed the complete point and knee jerked a fix. All of which ignores the problem because well reasons.

[Nimon.7840]

And next: why didn't get defenders rune, rune of speed and rune of vampirism get nerfed?

They are definetly considered op as well.

If you wanna play ball-zerg. You have to play rune of speed.If you are already winning a fight. Vampirism lets you win even more. No comeback anymore money

And did you see warriors with that broken defenders rune?

Running into zergs with invuln, dropping and getting auto invuln procced, uses block and gets out with 100% health.

That's pretty dumb

[Catchyfx.5768]

LoL they really did this :D Necrohate izrealOne question: it is Internal CD or how it will work? You get barier and its on CD or how?

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Nimon.7840" said:The problem about this nerf is also:In good zergs or guildgroups you will always have 25might while fighting.Also you have firebrand supports to heal you and cleanse conditions like crazy.So both effects of abrasive grit are negated.Also you have to trade in bloodmagic on one necro in each group, which will result in him doing less damage, than the other necros. As well as loosing damage stats by choosing this rune over a berserkers rune or something else.

And next, if your firebrand sux, and is too bad to cleanse conditions, he will also fail to give proper stability.And if you get caught in a cc-chain, even this "op"interaction doesn't help you one bit.

And then there's something else: there's skillsplit. Why didn't they just need the interaction in spvp and wvw then.It's already easy to do almost everything solo as a necromancer in open world pve. The interaction wouldn't have changed anything

My point is more that you'll still need scourge in high quantity for boon corruption and barrier in it's niche (yes WvW zerg) for everything else, the change to abrasive grit just make the specialization weaker for no reason.

Also the issue here is not skillsplit or the scourge being weak against CC or whatever, the issue is the rune effect. Nothing more nothing less. This rune effect lead to broken interaction with many skill/traits and not only the necromancer's one. Professions with high sustain will be able to stack barrier like crazy which will introduce a new wave of complaint about bunkers builds. They will then nerf sustain on bunker build which will make other builds even weaker leading players playing those other builds even more sour.

This runeset effect is just stupid and bound to create issues there is no point in nerfing perfectly balanced traits for the sake of this runeset effect when he is the root of the issue. Come on, the majority of the runesets 6th effects have huge cool down making them barely usefull and here they nerf a profession for a runset effect that is bound to be a pain in the a** of the balance team due to the fact that it doesn't have any CD.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1) scourge was not “under performing” it’s been meta since pof

2) sanctuary itself isn’t OP. The only thing that needs fixing is barrier on resurrection, which even then doesn’t seem that broken to me since thier is so much cleave in the game.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:1) scourge was not “under performing” it’s been meta since pof

Scourge is weak individually but stack very well in numbers. It's only meta because it stack well and bring on a much needed boon hate in an environment where boons became mainstream.

2) sanctuary itself isn’t OP. The only thing that needs fixing is barrier on resurrection, which even then doesn’t seem that broken to me since thier is so much cleave in the game.

Sanctuary is bound to create issues with other professions as well, there is no point in acting like it won't. The issue of the runeset was neither the cleanse nor the might stacking of the scourge, players acknowledged the issue because scourges were able to facetank other players which mean that the issue was the sustain, the fact that it's "bunkerish". Any profession with high sustain will make this runeset OP as hell.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:Now is impossible to chain barriers to get condi cleanse, and let's be honest here chaining barrier wasn't a problem before and neither is now, since a scourge realistically can only chain 4 barriers at top then it basically has all on cooldown (manifest sand shade when coupled desert empowerment, sand cascade, sand flare and desert shroud).

Have to agree here. No question the interaction of the rune with Scourge was stupid overpowered, but the resulting fix was simply to nerf one of Scourge's main utilities for WvW and to an extent PvE.

So that's Renegade and Scourge that have both been screwed over by this rune/sigil overhaul. Anyone else?

[Catchyfx.5768]

you just call it nerf...we necros we call it thuesday :D expected. If any other rune will cause a troble here is plenty room to "fix" -> #Necro

ICD on rune

[ZDragon.3046]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:I called the fact that this would happen its unlikely that the rune would get removed cause its not that strong in any other portion of the game on any other profession So it makes more sense to look at the problem trait causing the fuss.They had 2 options really1: Remove the rune from pvp or the game entirely (which invalidates it without even giving it a real testing period, this wont be the only rune that causes changes)-or-2:Add a cooldown to Abrasive Grit and leave the rune alone for now and see how things go

To be fair any scourge who was using this set up with the run was using abrasive grit in a purpose that it was not intended. It was intended to be a supportive trait and the unintended function with the rune turned it into a selfish trait.

While i think 5 seconds might be a bit too high (I was more so betting on 3 seconds) Without this rune who actually ran this trait commonly and if you did how often were you really applying barrier on yourself to make use of the condition cleanse and might generation. Even if you were supporting allies with it how often do you really think you were able to dump out barrier in a realistic manner. It was likely not 2-4 times every other second.

My final thoughts are that the new icd was needed but 5 seconds is a bit to high maybe we can see a pve split that keeps it fictional respectably in the that mode. If the rune is removed then i see no reason why the change cant be reverted.

You forgot option 3: make Rune of the Sanctuary specifically not proc Abrasive Grit. Perhaps they code the rune as another source for the barrier rather than the player, keeping Abrasive Grit from proccing as the player is not applying the barrier. Perhaps they put a minimum barrier value on Abrasive Grit that is high enough to cover every single skill/trait that grants Barrier, but not Rune+Vampiric Aura. There are more ways they could have done it.

You do realize how ridiculous that sounds right considering we dont see any other numeric value trait that works like that with barrier that would have to be 100% new code and thats not something you do in a HoT fix. For now options 1 and 2 were the only options that make sense.

[Nimon.7840]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:I called the fact that this would happen its unlikely that the rune would get removed cause its not that strong in any other portion of the game on any other profession So it makes more sense to look at the problem trait causing the fuss.They had 2 options really1: Remove the rune from pvp or the game entirely (which invalidates it without even giving it a real testing period, this wont be the only rune that causes changes)-or-2:Add a cooldown to Abrasive Grit and leave the rune alone for now and see how things go

To be fair any scourge who was using this set up with the run was using abrasive grit in a purpose that it was not intended. It was intended to be a supportive trait and the unintended function with the rune turned it into a selfish trait.

While i think 5 seconds might be a bit too high (I was more so betting on 3 seconds) Without this rune who actually ran this trait commonly and if you did how often were you really applying barrier on yourself to make use of the condition cleanse and might generation. Even if you were supporting allies with it how often do you really think you were able to dump out barrier in a realistic manner. It was likely not 2-4 times every other second.

My final thoughts are that the new icd was needed but 5 seconds is a bit to high maybe we can see a pve split that keeps it fictional respectably in the that mode. If the rune is removed then i see no reason why the change cant be reverted.

You forgot option 3: make Rune of the Sanctuary specifically not proc Abrasive Grit. Perhaps they code the rune as another source for the barrier rather than the player, keeping Abrasive Grit from proccing as the player is not applying the barrier. Perhaps they put a minimum barrier value on Abrasive Grit that is high enough to cover every single skill/trait that grants Barrier, but not Rune+Vampiric Aura. There are more ways they could have done it.

You do realize how ridiculous that sounds right considering we dont see any other numeric value trait that works like that with barrier that would have to be 100% new code and thats not something you do in a HoT fix. For now options 1 and 2 were the only options that make sense.

The problem I have with this. It should have never come to this interaction.This just shows, minimal knowledge of their own game

[ZDragon.3046]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:I called the fact that this would happen its unlikely that the rune would get removed cause its not that strong in any other portion of the game on any other profession So it makes more sense to look at the problem trait causing the fuss.They had 2 options really1: Remove the rune from pvp or the game entirely (which invalidates it without even giving it a real testing period, this wont be the only rune that causes changes)-or-2:Add a cooldown to Abrasive Grit and leave the rune alone for now and see how things go

To be fair any scourge who was using this set up with the run was using abrasive grit in a purpose that it was not intended. It was intended to be a supportive trait and the unintended function with the rune turned it into a selfish trait.

While i think 5 seconds might be a bit too high (I was more so betting on 3 seconds) Without this rune who actually ran this trait commonly and if you did how often were you really applying barrier on yourself to make use of the condition cleanse and might generation. Even if you were supporting allies with it how often do you really think you were able to dump out barrier in a realistic manner. It was likely not 2-4 times every other second.

My final thoughts are that the new icd was needed but 5 seconds is a bit to high maybe we can see a pve split that keeps it fictional respectably in the that mode. If the rune is removed then i see no reason why the change cant be reverted.

The foolish optimist in me hopes that they only made this change due to it taking longer to change the rune, and they will revert Abrasive Grit once they finish implementing the change.

All im saying is that it was totally ironic that scourges were using a rune to proc what should have been a supportive trait selfishly then when the trait gets bumped to be more in line but still usable (when many were not even using it before more than likely) people lash out about it.... like what..... excuse me. Even if you did use the trait before this rune no way you were popping it more than 1 once every 3-5 seconds anyways unless you were in those panic barrier spaz moments where you use your heal followed by desert shroud right away. I mean come on now... this is a all a bit silly.

If the rune goes away or gets change i see no issue with abrasive grit returning to its old self with no icd i would be all for it.

On a personal note, I always knew if I popped a barrier or 3 I would remove a condition or 3.

To be fair a while it is a helpful trait in removing conditions from yourself it was never intended to be used for selfish removal. Necro has soooooo many other options for getting rid of and clensing condi. To hinge the idea this trait getting a icd is that bad is simply comical. I think 5 seconds is too high to be honest 3 seconds would have been more reasonable. But generally if something is over exploited it gets pushed harder as hot fix than it would with balance change.

In fact I the only place i feel its impacted the most is in pve and maybe wvw where most scourges might use it for its intended purpose of cleansing condi's on allies not themselves.

[biczkowski.2961]

lol, amateur hour game design

[Stand The Wall.6987]

adding my voice to the chorus. the runes the problem, but judging by the way anet is so "in tune" with its game its possible this is here to stay at least for a little while. don't wanna make any rash decisions like fix broke stuff immediately.

[Lahmia.2193]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:I called the fact that this would happen its unlikely that the rune would get removed cause its not that strong in any other portion of the game on any other profession So it makes more sense to look at the problem trait causing the fuss.They had 2 options really1: Remove the rune from pvp or the game entirely (which invalidates it without even giving it a real testing period, this wont be the only rune that causes changes)-or-2:Add a cooldown to Abrasive Grit and leave the rune alone for now and see how things go

To be fair any scourge who was using this set up with the run was using abrasive grit in a purpose that it was not intended. It was intended to be a supportive trait and the unintended function with the rune turned it into a selfish trait.

While i think 5 seconds might be a bit too high (I was more so betting on 3 seconds) Without this rune who actually ran this trait commonly and if you did how often were you really applying barrier on yourself to make use of the condition cleanse and might generation. Even if you were supporting allies with it how often do you really think you were able to dump out barrier in a realistic manner. It was likely not 2-4 times every other second.

My final thoughts are that the new icd was needed but 5 seconds is a bit to high maybe we can see a pve split that keeps it fictional respectably in the that mode. If the rune is removed then i see no reason why the change cant be reverted.

The foolish optimist in me hopes that they only made this change due to it taking longer to change the rune, and they will revert Abrasive Grit once they finish implementing the change.

All im saying is that it was totally ironic that scourges were using a rune to proc what should have been a supportive trait selfishly then when the trait gets bumped to be more in line but still usable (when many were not even using it before more than likely) people lash out about it.... like what..... excuse me. Even if you did use the trait before this rune no way you were popping it more than 1 once every 3-5 seconds anyways unless you were in those panic barrier spaz moments where you use your heal followed by desert shroud right away. I mean come on now... this is a all a bit silly.

If the rune goes away or gets change i see no issue with abrasive grit returning to its old self with no icd i would be all for it.

On a personal note, I always knew if I popped a barrier or 3 I would remove a condition or 3.

To be fair a while it is a helpful trait in removing conditions from yourself it was never intended to be used for selfish removal. Necro has soooooo many other options for getting rid of and clensing condi. To hinge the idea this trait getting a icd is that bad is simply comical. I think 5 seconds is too high to be honest 3 seconds would have been more reasonable. But generally if something is over exploited it gets pushed harder as hot fix than it would with balance change.

In fact I the only place i feel its impacted the most is in pve and maybe wvw where most scourges might use it for its intended purpose of cleansing condi's on allies not themselves.

Then you'll be interested to know I play wvw almost exclusively.

[ZDragon.3046]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@Aslakh.3072 said:@ZDragon.3046 You do realise i was common for people to place a shade, use sand cascade and use sand shroud within 3 seconds to barrier themselves and clear conditions after taking damage and conditions. This isn't niche, people did run sand cascade before now and it is a significant nerf to its condition clearing capabilities which to many was the main draw of the trait.

Agreed. Previously we had the flexibility to manage our barriers according to the number of condis that needed clearing. We could choose to clear one or multiple in a couple of seconds. Now we can only clear one or two every 5 seconds.

Once again if you hinge all your self condi clearing on what should be a supportive trait more for your allies on necro of all professions then thats a build problem personally in my perspective. I simply cant feel sorry for the idea that "I cant use it selfishly as often anymore." It was never meant to be your main personal condi cleanser to start with.I already said 5 seconds might be a bit much but to be fair keep in mind a few things

This is an adept traitThis trait is meant for supporting allies and based on its text it shouldn't work on you at all to start with (but the game allows things like this across all professions )You have other condition management options on necormancer all over the place.This trait was hurt the mostly for its supportive capabilities (and thats what pains me a bit more) I dont feel bad that you cant spam it on yourself as often when it was never meant to be a self sustaining trait to start with.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:I called the fact that this would happen its unlikely that the rune would get removed cause its not that strong in any other portion of the game on any other profession So it makes more sense to look at the problem trait causing the fuss.They had 2 options really1: Remove the rune from pvp or the game entirely (which invalidates it without even giving it a real testing period, this wont be the only rune that causes changes)-or-2:Add a cooldown to Abrasive Grit and leave the rune alone for now and see how things go

To be fair any scourge who was using this set up with the run was using abrasive grit in a purpose that it was not intended. It was intended to be a supportive trait and the unintended function with the rune turned it into a selfish trait.

While i think 5 seconds might be a bit too high (I was more so betting on 3 seconds) Without this rune who actually ran this trait commonly and if you did how often were you really applying barrier on yourself to make use of the condition cleanse and might generation. Even if you were supporting allies with it how often do you really think you were able to dump out barrier in a realistic manner. It was likely not 2-4 times every other second.

My final thoughts are that the new icd was needed but 5 seconds is a bit to high maybe we can see a pve split that keeps it fictional respectably in the that mode. If the rune is removed then i see no reason why the change cant be reverted.

The foolish optimist in me hopes that they only made this change due to it taking longer to change the rune, and they will revert Abrasive Grit once they finish implementing the change.

All im saying is that it was totally ironic that scourges were using a rune to proc what should have been a supportive trait selfishly then when the trait gets bumped to be more in line but still usable (when many were not even using it before more than likely) people lash out about it.... like what..... excuse me. Even if you did use the trait before this rune no way you were popping it more than 1 once every 3-5 seconds anyways unless you were in those panic barrier spaz moments where you use your heal followed by desert shroud right away. I mean come on now... this is a all a bit silly.

If the rune goes away or gets change i see no issue with abrasive grit returning to its old self with no icd i would be all for it.

On a personal note, I always knew if I popped a barrier or 3 I would remove a condition or 3.

To be fair a while it is a helpful trait in removing conditions from yourself it was never intended to be used for selfish removal. Necro has soooooo many other options for getting rid of and clensing condi. To hinge the idea this trait getting a icd is that bad is simply comical. I think 5 seconds is too high to be honest 3 seconds would have been more reasonable. But generally if something is over exploited it gets pushed harder as hot fix than it would with balance change.

In fact I the only place i feel its impacted the most is in pve and maybe wvw where most scourges might use it for its intended purpose of cleansing condi's on allies not themselves.

Then you'll be interested to know I play wvw almost exclusively.

Fair enough (im sorry your support power got hit) but im not sorry that personal sustain took a hit along side it when it was not meant to be a personal sustain tool to start withI suspect this change wont be the only one though that comes off these new runes. Scourge was just one of the first things brought into the light. There is still a balance change to come after this so I say hold your hopes for that and see what comes of it.

[Nimon.7840]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@Aslakh.3072 said:@ZDragon.3046 You do realise i was common for people to place a shade, use sand cascade and use sand shroud within 3 seconds to barrier themselves and clear conditions after taking damage and conditions. This isn't niche, people did run sand cascade before now and it is a significant nerf to its condition clearing capabilities which to many was the main draw of the trait.

Agreed. Previously we had the flexibility to manage our barriers according to the number of condis that needed clearing. We could choose to clear one or multiple in a couple of seconds. Now we can only clear one or two every 5 seconds.

Once again if you hinge all your self condi clearing on what should be a supportive trait more for your allies on necro of all professions then thats a build problem personally in my perspective. I simply cant feel sorry for the idea that "I cant use it selfishly as often anymore." It was never meant to be your main personal condi cleanser to start with.I already said 5 seconds might be a bit much but to be fair keep in mind a few things

This is an adept traitThis trait is meant for supporting allies and based on its text it shouldn't work on you at all to start with (but the game allows things like this across all professions )You have other condition management options on necormancer all over the place.This trait was hurt the mostly for its supportive capabilities (and thats what pains me a bit more) I dont feel bad that you cant spam it on yourself as often when it was never meant to be a self sustaining trait to start with.

Maybe. But necro doesn't have many barrier applications.Most of the times its exactly 2.And also putting an icd on the trait that makes barriers good is pretty bad.In PvP you will almost always use f1+3 together to block big boss hits. -> nerfedIn pvps you used them to try cleanse damaging conditions for you and your allies. In wvw its not even mostly taken because it cleanses, but because you can have barrier when engaging while also giving your group might. -> nerfed

To have those 2 skills back up infight, then the Condi clear was a nice addition, if you got bombed, you could use f3 + healskill, to provide party support, both together. Now that's not worth anymore

[Anchoku.8142]

While the nerf to on-demand condi cleanse is substantial, I can see how the dev's would want some sort of CD tied to the trait. Every skill or proc should have a limit to frequency of use. The rune just brought it to their attention.

The "compensation" of might was the value they felt was appropriate.

[mortrialus.3062]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Copperheart.9517 said:Yeah. That’s actually pretty stupid. The problem was the rune. But you know NERF NECRO is like very other patch. So not all that surprised.

Sorta seems logical on my end...Either remove the rune so 26/27 classes miss out because of the one spec or just put an ICD on that 1 spec so all 27 specs can use it without breaking the game.

We can get emotional over it sure, but it won't do much. From a logical stand point, yes you would normally go to a source of the problem but in this case it just happened to be 1/27 specs was breaking the game, logical choice in this situation is to change that outlier rather than scrap the whole project and start again.

One more unused rune tossed onto the pile is nothing. It was useless Monday and life went on. If it was useless today life would go on. The ruin is still stupid OP btw, not just with scourge but with a variety of builds aa well as anytime you can guaruntee a support is healing you.

[Nimon.7840]

@"Anchoku.8142" said:While the nerf to on-demand condi cleanse is substantial, I can see how the dev's would want some sort of CD tied to the trait. Every skill or proc should have a limit to frequency of use. The rune just brought it to their attention.

The "compensation" of might was the value they felt was appropriate.

Then you have to put a lot of icds on a lot of traits. That's not how they will do it.