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Why is Ele bad?


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I have my complaints as well. From the PVE perspective.

Staff ele has been a particular point of contention for me. First, the rotation is convoluted and weird. The staff auto attacks are all just utterly terrible, so to do good damage the ele needs to bounce between conjures to fill the dead space in the rotation. Second, Staff ele is the only power build with a ramp up time. This makes it pretty bad for burst, and for killing anything lower than elites. In fractals, the boss usually phases before I can complete a full rotation. Third, a lot of the attacks are RNG. Sometimes lightning storm gives you its blessing, other times it just whiffs. Fourth, a lot of the attacks have long cast times. This leaves staff ele vulnerable for their duration, and also makes it hard to do damage in dodge heavy fights. Fifth, all of the support skills are effectively locked away behind bad attunements. Overall, this makes staff ele convoluted, clunky, frail, and fickle. When things go right, all you do is damage, and every single utility skill has to be dedicated to doing damage.

Sword/dagger ele is a bit better in that regard, since it doesn't have ramp-up and the auto attacks do much more damage. But, it suffers from it's own problems. The short range gets the ele killed, and the defensive skills are locked behind water/earth. If there's some area denial effect going on, the sword ele will be forced to just sit there and do nothing. Sword ele also has cleave problems, since the air skills only hit 1 target. Ring of Fire and Fire Grab are notoriously clunky, sometimes refusing to be queued up or get interrupted mid cast.

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@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

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Ele is UP since 3 years.Other classes can choose between damage and life.Ele NEEDS all stats because of smallest health in the game. You can not choose between more damage or more life / more armor. You NEED all of them.

There are some things for Ele.[ Buff health ] at least to medium level.Or better for the balance.Make ALL classes Medium life - so necro , warrior have to set some points in life too.

[ Buff Barrier ] Ele needs at least 1000 barrier for attunement switching[ Buff cooldowns ] IF i have to stack might over and over for mediocre success than give me MORE firefields / explo finisher.

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Sword lack of skills to stick/target enemies, and range.We have air #2 but what the point with 15sec cd ( First WTF, a Skill #2 with 15c cd) and nothing else. #2 fire is strong but easy to dodge and still low range leap, #2 earth applies Cripple but you're immobilized + low range. #2 water is useless if you don't combo in it.Dual attacks have too long cast time, actually I'd prefered they didn't up the dmg but low the Cast. Dual attacks water/air water/earth have really bad tracking, they miss half the time if enemies move a bit.In roaming I change often for Dagger, because of leap/mobility and range, strong hit dual attacks with more range and radius, I won't say it's "better" or "stronger" but against players who know a bit how to counter melee weaver, dagger offers more utilities.

But it could be ok. IMO the worst this class are not the weapon skills and swap but the utility skills : half of them are useless everywhere, the other half can't sustain you or DPS properly. Look at stances, kitten barriers, or kitten heals with ICD or an attunement CD refresh Vs War stances (Vigor stab, invu, resistance, full lifebar heal...) or soulbeast stances (protection regen fury +66% boon duration; cleanse 2 condi every sec, poison on every hit without icd...) it's BAD.Won't talk about conjured weapons, after so many nerfs even in Pve they are pretty negligible, or Glyphs : I don't even know the effect I didn't use one since 2015 except the storm.And so few traits that up or use lesser version of utility skills.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

That not a good thing though and why its not working every time they try to re-balance the class. They also had combo fields that added a lot of quality to the class but its all been made worthless due to power creep. There a lot more going on that is destroying the ele class.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

That not a good thing though and why its not working every time they try to re-balance the class. They also had combo fields that added a lot of quality to the class but its all been made worthless due to power creep. There a lot more going on that is destroying the ele class.

I keep telling you, yet you choose not to listen. Nerf everything back down and all that becomes relevant again, as in all ele needs if for everyone to get nerfed.

Before Blackbeard shows up with his 15,000 word thesis of masterful ele, yes there's inconsistencies in the traits and they can be a bit better but on the whole ele is in a decent spot if the ridiculous power creep is addressed.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

That not a good thing though and why its not working every time they try to re-balance the class. They also had combo fields that added a lot of quality to the class but its all been made worthless due to power creep. There a lot more going on that is destroying the ele class.

I keep telling you, yet you choose not to listen. Nerf everything back down and all that becomes relevant again, as in all ele needs if for everyone to get nerfed.

Before Blackbeard shows up with his 15,000 word thesis of masterful ele, yes there's inconsistencies in the traits and they can be a bit better but on the whole ele is in a decent spot if the ridiculous power creep is addressed.

And every one even the devs. (by there action) are telling you there never going to be any major nerfs to any classes even ele. Buff and asking for buffs for ele on the ele forms is the only way and asking for nerfs for other classes on the ele forms is out right crazy way of asking devs to fixing the ele class.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

That not a good thing though and why its not working every time they try to re-balance the class. They also had combo fields that added a lot of quality to the class but its all been made worthless due to power creep. There a lot more going on that is destroying the ele class.

I keep telling you, yet you choose not to listen. Nerf everything back down and all that becomes relevant again, as in all ele needs if for everyone to get nerfed.

Before Blackbeard shows up with his 15,000 word thesis of masterful ele, yes there's inconsistencies in the traits and they can be a bit better but on the whole ele is in a decent spot if the ridiculous power creep is addressed.

And every one even the devs. (by there action) are telling you there never going to be any major nerfs to any classes even ele. Buff and asking for buffs for ele on the ele forms is the only way and asking for nerfs for other classes on the ele forms is out right crazy way of asking devs to fixing the ele class.

Yeah and how's that keep buffing been working out? WvW servers getting merged because populations plummeted. PvP population decimated. PvE population? Not a clue but maps seem more empty now though we have more maps so /shrug.

I ask for nerfs on WvW and PvP forums, here's one from Engineer forum: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/61083/on-power-creep-example-holosmith#latest

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@apharma.3741 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

That not a good thing though and why its not working every time they try to re-balance the class. They also had combo fields that added a lot of quality to the class but its all been made worthless due to power creep. There a lot more going on that is destroying the ele class.

I keep telling you, yet you choose not to listen. Nerf everything back down and all that becomes relevant again, as in all ele needs if for everyone to get nerfed.

Before Blackbeard shows up with his 15,000 word thesis of masterful ele, yes there's inconsistencies in the traits and they can be a bit better but on the whole ele is in a decent spot if the ridiculous power creep is addressed.

And every one even the devs. (by there action) are telling you there never going to be any major nerfs to any classes even ele. Buff and asking for buffs for ele on the ele forms is the only way and asking for nerfs for other classes on the ele forms is out right crazy way of asking devs to fixing the ele class.

Yeah and how's that keep buffing been working out? WvW servers getting merged because populations plummeted. PvP population decimated. PvE population? Not a clue but maps seem more empty now though we have more maps so /shrug.

I ask for nerfs on WvW and PvP forums, here's one from Engineer forum:

If ppl who agree with my point of view but not the means to get to a real objective in a real world way is not with it then its impossible to make any real change. Devs will not read any thing here of a meaningful level as there is no ele dev. I am talking to ele players. If you want to talk about nerfing classes to fix ele go to that classes forms and say it there OR talk about such things in more gen. views on the main forms where they fit.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

That not a good thing though and why its not working every time they try to re-balance the class. They also had combo fields that added a lot of quality to the class but its all been made worthless due to power creep. There a lot more going on that is destroying the ele class.

I keep telling you, yet you choose not to listen. Nerf everything back down and all that becomes relevant again, as in all ele needs if for everyone to get nerfed.

Before Blackbeard shows up with his 15,000 word thesis of masterful ele, yes there's inconsistencies in the traits and they can be a bit better but on the whole ele is in a decent spot if the ridiculous power creep is addressed.

And every one even the devs. (by there action) are telling you there never going to be any major nerfs to any classes even ele. Buff and asking for buffs for ele on the ele forms is the only way and asking for nerfs for other classes on the ele forms is out right crazy way of asking devs to fixing the ele class.

Yeah and how's that keep buffing been working out? WvW servers getting merged because populations plummeted. PvP population decimated. PvE population? Not a clue but maps seem more empty now though we have more maps so /shrug.

I ask for nerfs on WvW and PvP forums, here's one from Engineer forum:

If ppl who agree with my point of view but not the means to get to a real objective in a real world way is not with it then its impossible to make any real change. Devs will not read any thing here of a meaningful level as there is no ele dev. I am talking to ele players. If you want to talk about nerfing classes to fix ele go to that classes forms and say it there OR talk about such things in more gen. views on the main forms where they fit.

My view that ele is (mostly) fine and that the issue is with other classes so don't buff ele is perfectly valid to be in the ele forum. If you do not agree and feel that my comment belongs in another area please inform a moderator who will diligently move it.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

That not a good thing though and why its not working every time they try to re-balance the class. They also had combo fields that added a lot of quality to the class but its all been made worthless due to power creep. There a lot more going on that is destroying the ele class.

I keep telling you, yet you choose not to listen. Nerf everything back down and all that becomes relevant again, as in all ele needs if for everyone to get nerfed.

Before Blackbeard shows up with his 15,000 word thesis of masterful ele, yes there's inconsistencies in the traits and they can be a bit better but on the whole ele is in a decent spot if the ridiculous power creep is addressed.

And every one even the devs. (by there action) are telling you there never going to be any major nerfs to any classes even ele. Buff and asking for buffs for ele on the ele forms is the only way and asking for nerfs for other classes on the ele forms is out right crazy way of asking devs to fixing the ele class.

Yeah and how's that keep buffing been working out? WvW servers getting merged because populations plummeted. PvP population decimated. PvE population? Not a clue but maps seem more empty now though we have more maps so /shrug.

I ask for nerfs on WvW and PvP forums, here's one from Engineer forum:

If ppl who agree with my point of view but not the means to get to a real objective in a real world way is not with it then its impossible to make any real change. Devs will not read any thing here of a meaningful level as there is no ele dev. I am talking to ele players. If you want to talk about nerfing classes to fix ele go to that classes forms and say it there OR talk about such things in more gen. views on the main forms where they fit.

My view that ele is (mostly) fine and that the issue is with other classes so don't buff ele is perfectly valid to be in the ele forum. If you do not agree and feel that my comment belongs in another area please inform a moderator who will diligently move it.

Right only ele post get this treatment.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

That not a good thing though and why its not working every time they try to re-balance the class. They also had combo fields that added a lot of quality to the class but its all been made worthless due to power creep. There a lot more going on that is destroying the ele class.

I keep telling you, yet you choose not to listen. Nerf everything back down and all that becomes relevant again, as in all ele needs if for everyone to get nerfed.

Before Blackbeard shows up with his 15,000 word thesis of masterful ele, yes there's inconsistencies in the traits and they can be a bit better but on the whole ele is in a decent spot if the ridiculous power creep is addressed.

Nerfing everything is a non-starter, so he has every reason not to listen. Suggesting that others get nerfs to make Elementalist better doesn't lead to a constructive discussion since it is never going to happen (it would set an extremely bad precedent for the game). Besides, Elementalist players shouldn't want that anyway. If Elementalist players started pushing for nerfs to everyone else and it actually did happen you would effectively turn the entire game against you. Other players from other professions will not want their power curbed just to make Elementalist players happy. The end result would, more than likely, mean that in PvP and WvW Elementalist becomes the first target in any match with people focusing down on them just to make them pay. Sure the profession might be stronger but having 3 to 5 players making sure you don't get to do anything in a match would soon make the profession unfun. You would also run the risk of people auto kicking Elementalist players from PvE content in order to make them pay.

Since nerfing everyone else would be counterproductive there really isn't much use in discussing it as a solution. I get how some people hate power creep but nerfing all of the professions in order to address it will do more long-term damage to the game than the power creep itself.

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@Dace.8173 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

That not a good thing though and why its not working every time they try to re-balance the class. They also had combo fields that added a lot of quality to the class but its all been made worthless due to power creep. There a lot more going on that is destroying the ele class.

I keep telling you, yet you choose not to listen. Nerf everything back down and all that becomes relevant again, as in all ele needs if for everyone to get nerfed.

Before Blackbeard shows up with his 15,000 word thesis of masterful ele, yes there's inconsistencies in the traits and they can be a bit better but on the whole ele is in a decent spot if the ridiculous power creep is addressed.

Nerfing everything is a non-starter, so he has every reason not to listen. Suggesting that others get nerfs to make Elementalist better doesn't lead to a constructive discussion since it is never going to happen (it would set an extremely bad precedent for the game). Besides, Elementalist players shouldn't want that anyway. If Elementalist players started pushing for nerfs to everyone else and it actually did happen you would effectively turn the entire game against you. Other players from other professions will not want their power curbed just to make Elementalist players happy. The end result would, more than likely, mean that in PvP and WvW Elementalist becomes the first target in any match with people focusing down on them just to make them pay. Sure the profession might be stronger but having 3 to 5 players making sure you don't get to do anything in a match would soon make the profession unfun. You would also run the risk of people auto kicking Elementalist players from PvE content in order to make them pay.

Since nerfing everyone else would be counterproductive there really isn't much use in discussing it as a solution. I get how some people hate power creep but nerfing all of the professions in order to address it will do more long-term damage to the game than the power creep itself.

This what he said is true.Let us focus on getting improvements to weaver and its lockout problems of the spec.

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@Axl.8924 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

That not a good thing though and why its not working every time they try to re-balance the class. They also had combo fields that added a lot of quality to the class but its all been made worthless due to power creep. There a lot more going on that is destroying the ele class.

I keep telling you, yet you choose not to listen. Nerf everything back down and all that becomes relevant again, as in all ele needs if for everyone to get nerfed.

Before Blackbeard shows up with his 15,000 word thesis of masterful ele, yes there's inconsistencies in the traits and they can be a bit better but on the whole ele is in a decent spot if the ridiculous power creep is addressed.

Nerfing everything is a non-starter, so he has every reason not to listen. Suggesting that others get nerfs to make Elementalist better doesn't lead to a constructive discussion since it is never going to happen (it would set an extremely bad precedent for the game). Besides, Elementalist players shouldn't want that anyway. If Elementalist players started pushing for nerfs to everyone else and it actually did happen you would effectively turn the entire game against you. Other players from other professions will not want their power curbed just to make Elementalist players happy. The end result would, more than likely, mean that in PvP and WvW Elementalist becomes the first target in any match with people focusing down on them just to make them pay. Sure the profession might be stronger but having 3 to 5 players making sure you don't get to do anything in a match would soon make the profession unfun. You would also run the risk of people auto kicking Elementalist players from PvE content in order to make them pay.

Since nerfing everyone else would be counterproductive there really isn't much use in discussing it as a solution. I get how some people hate power creep but nerfing all of the professions in order to address it will do more long-term damage to the game than the power creep itself.

This what he said is true.Let us focus on getting improvements to weaver and its lockout problems of the spec.

You don't fix power creep with power creep. You see threads on PvP and WvW forums all the time complaining at how the games got worse to play since HoT and PoF. Buff weaver and you just create more people that play the game less and less as they look at their game play becoming face roll and choose to play something else.

Don't forget that if Firebrand was to get disabled for whatever reason the second best support spec by a mile is still tempest.

Edit: OK to explain it for the scores of people that don't get it.

We are currently in a meta where damage is so high support is borderline worthless, that's not just my opinion, here it is from an ex ESL player who understands the game more than most of you in the thread.https://www.twitch.tv/roms_hut/clip/IcyOutstandingYamStinkyCheese

So just buff weaver 4Head!

OK so you made weaver compete and face roll but we still have tempest and core being terrible and all support is bad.

Just buff support 4Head!

Yeah so that means buffing firebrand which is already unequivocally the best support because it has aegis to prevent hits, stab to prevent CC spam, ally stunbreaks, heals, condition clears, resistance and projectile mitigation.

What about all the other supports? Well tempest would need a big buff, yay power creep, while most other classes would need such a high buff that I don't know where you would even begin without making them completely unkillable. Remember what happens when we buff chrono? Yeah chrono bunker THAT WAS FUN! Remember what happens when we buff druid? Yeah best single node holder in the game.

Just buff the support aspect but not survivability 4Head!

That doesn't work so well, in a damage meta support needs 2 things: 1. to survive under focus and 2. to enable allies to survive more or increase their ability to get kills.

Considering we're in a damage meta where it's too high and 2v1 you can't hold for any length unless your opponents are very bad the second option of increasing ability to kill is out of the window. This leaves them helping others live longer which usually enables them to live longer leading to chrono bunker and druid.

Where as if you nerf the damage of 8 classes and the support of 1 class you can bring it all much more into line without risking chrono bunkers, insane druid and without having to power creep the support of 9 classes and the damage of 1.

Sure some people might have to start thinking about skill usage again instead of spam spammily spam but is that a bad thing?

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@apharma.3741 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

That not a good thing though and why its not working every time they try to re-balance the class. They also had combo fields that added a lot of quality to the class but its all been made worthless due to power creep. There a lot more going on that is destroying the ele class.

I keep telling you, yet you choose not to listen. Nerf everything back down and all that becomes relevant again, as in all ele needs if for everyone to get nerfed.

Before Blackbeard shows up with his 15,000 word thesis of masterful ele, yes there's inconsistencies in the traits and they can be a bit better but on the whole ele is in a decent spot if the ridiculous power creep is addressed.

Nerfing everything is a non-starter, so he has every reason not to listen. Suggesting that others get nerfs to make Elementalist better doesn't lead to a constructive discussion since it is never going to happen (it would set an extremely bad precedent for the game). Besides, Elementalist players shouldn't want that anyway. If Elementalist players started pushing for nerfs to everyone else and it actually did happen you would effectively turn the entire game against you. Other players from other professions will not want their power curbed just to make Elementalist players happy. The end result would, more than likely, mean that in PvP and WvW Elementalist becomes the first target in any match with people focusing down on them just to make them pay. Sure the profession might be stronger but having 3 to 5 players making sure you don't get to do anything in a match would soon make the profession unfun. You would also run the risk of people auto kicking Elementalist players from PvE content in order to make them pay.

Since nerfing everyone else would be counterproductive there really isn't much use in discussing it as a solution. I get how some people hate power creep but nerfing all of the professions in order to address it will do more long-term damage to the game than the power creep itself.

This what he said is true.Let us focus on getting improvements to weaver and its lockout problems of the spec.

You don't fix power creep with power creep. You see threads on PvP and WvW forums all the time complaining at how the games got worse to play since HoT and PoF. Buff weaver and you just create more people that play the game less and less as they look at their game play becoming face roll and choose to play something else.

Don't forget that if Firebrand was to get disabled for whatever reason the second best support spec by a mile is still tempest.

You also do not fix power creep with game wide nerfs to everyone, more so if you are trying to nerf people back to pre-HoT days. You would see more complaining if everyone was nerfed to their pre-expansion power levels. Stroll on over to the Necromancer forums and read some of their threads on the nerf to Abrasive Grit. They are extremely mad over that simple nerf. Do you realize how angry they would be if their entire profession, Core, Reaper, and Scourge, was nerfed just to make Elementalist players happy? They are tired of having their profession nerfed to suit the needs of other players. Now, take that anger and magnify it eightfold. Yeah, some folks hate power creep but you are not going to see game wide acceptance of a complete nerf to everything.

People would REALLY hate Elementalist for that. It would also destroy people's confidence in the game for good. Folks wouldn't see the point of buying any future expansions because people will complain about the power level of the new Elites until everything was nerfed again. Nerf everything and you'll see people play the game less and less as they start to think that their favorite profession will get screwed over to suit the whims of other players.

Simply put, game wide nerfs to fix Elementalist is just a horrible bad (and selfish) idea. You can address power creep without having to do that and insisting on nerfs does nothing more than produce unproductive discussions, as it is extremely unlikely that ANet would go down that road (they are smart enough to know how damaging it would be to their game). If you really want to help Elementalist or address power creep, then people need to start offering ANet ideas that they may actually do. If you really want to help Elementalist it is time to come up with creative fixes to the profession's problems. Nerfs solve nothing. Don't believe me? Then go read the threads in the Necromancer forum and see for yourself just how negatively received nerfs are.

Let's discuss real solutions that might actually have a chance of being implemented.

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Ele needs a redesign to give the class a proper mechanic and purpose, but it can be done with tweaks and adjustments without making it a faceroll class with one button to rule them all. What really puts ele behind is result/investment ratio. In a perfect balance scenario it should be equal to 1 on any spec of the game. That's when personnal skill starts to matter. Of course that's hard to quantify, depending on build/roles/class interaction, but it should be clear when a spec is obviously busted with too much package.

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@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:Ele is mostly fine in PvE. Its a little clunky, and not really worth the effort if you care about raiding efficiency outside of top-tier (the damage is hard to land and you often end up doing less than 2 button specs like dps thief).

In PvP it is completely worthless. The healing spec (tempest) is almost a free kill and isn't even half as good as a bad firebrand. The dps spec (fresh air) has no effective defense vs. all the ports, the superspeed isn't effective vs. nowadays specs, the burst is MUCH lower than other burst (with longer between bursts), and it doesn't have any tools to deal with all of the blocks/evades other specs have. The bruiser spec (sword weaver) is probably the "best ele spec", and, at best, it can force a stalemate on a point then lose when +1'd, while having less mobility, less team support, and less damage than other bruisers.

Idk about WvW.

WvW staff weaver can drop some insane damage on an area with meteor, lava font, pyroclastic blast and plasma blast with fire autos....however they have long casts/travel so mileage will vary. Also thieves can pretty much (and will) one shot you with vault + steal for 21k so RIP having to cast meteor.

Sword weaver with focus works OK with marauder and lightning rod build, it's not any better than a holo, druid, soulbeast, condi mirage, scourge, firbrand....ok so it's kinda meh but the good thing about WvW is if you can find your backside with 1 hand you're already going to stomp 50% of people you see.

What tends to happen is the weaver is doing good dmg but its only dmg that dps readers are going to like its missing effects that make dmg stick on ppl in wvw (soft cc boon strip and condis) with out that its more for show only.

As for any thing that not staff it only works in low player fights or you will find your self getting randomly one shot by a rev.

Maybe for you but it's very clear to me, my commander, and the enemy players when they're hit with 7k meteors and go down in 2 hits. Just like it's very telling that they're never gonna rez those players because they have 8-10k ticking damage from 1 ele on those downs. Ele has always done incredible damage in WvW if it can get the casts off, except during tempest era, the biggest issue has always been that they can easily be taken out by a FP due to the casts. As damage from HoT increased FP damage (though they became absent due to pirate ship and infinite boon melee ball metas) it meant it got harder and harder and after PoF it's very difficult to get those casts and be in the right position especially with the plethora of corrupts and chill around.

Ofc you use things that aren't staff in low man fights, you wouldn't use a hammer to screw a nail would you?

Edit: What ele needs and has always needed since PoF hit was nerfing of other classes, and maybe a tune up of the cast/aftercasts.

That great and all but ele not the only class doing things like that and its only doing hits like that at the high end of things vs other glass classes. Dmg like that is fun to wach but its often meanless with out the ability to trigger an added effect. In a way you need a one two hit not just a one hit you need as a dmg class a means to make that dmg important.

The lack of dmg is not a problem on ele it never realty has its the lack of every thing else. Ele dmg at best is for show not for use.

To sum it up why ele is bad is because its a quantity over quality class. This is fine for pve but bad for pvp and for what ever reason pve is part of ele pvp balancing.

Bolded: Yeah, this has been since launch, you know why? It has 4 attunements and so 20 weapon skills by default, no other class boasts that number except possible engineer with more kits than anyone would ever want to use. So yes they do have to be lacking some of that extra 2 for 1 duality that some skills on other classes have had. Mind you if ANet keep buffing the way it does ele won't be that way for long and the game will be all the worse for it.

That not a good thing though and why its not working every time they try to re-balance the class. They also had combo fields that added a lot of quality to the class but its all been made worthless due to power creep. There a lot more going on that is destroying the ele class.

I keep telling you, yet you choose not to listen. Nerf everything back down and all that becomes relevant again, as in all ele needs if for everyone to get nerfed.

Before Blackbeard shows up with his 15,000 word thesis of masterful ele, yes there's inconsistencies in the traits and they can be a bit better but on the whole ele is in a decent spot if the ridiculous power creep is addressed.

Nerfing everything is a non-starter, so he has every reason not to listen. Suggesting that others get nerfs to make Elementalist better doesn't lead to a constructive discussion since it is never going to happen (it would set an extremely bad precedent for the game). Besides, Elementalist players shouldn't want that anyway. If Elementalist players started pushing for nerfs to everyone else and it actually did happen you would effectively turn the entire game against you. Other players from other professions will not want their power curbed just to make Elementalist players happy. The end result would, more than likely, mean that in PvP and WvW Elementalist becomes the first target in any match with people focusing down on them just to make them pay. Sure the profession might be stronger but having 3 to 5 players making sure you don't get to do anything in a match would soon make the profession unfun. You would also run the risk of people auto kicking Elementalist players from PvE content in order to make them pay.

Since nerfing everyone else would be counterproductive there really isn't much use in discussing it as a solution. I get how some people hate power creep but nerfing all of the professions in order to address it will do more long-term damage to the game than the power creep itself.

This what he said is true.Let us focus on getting improvements to weaver and its lockout problems of the spec.

You don't fix power creep with power creep. You see threads on PvP and WvW forums all the time complaining at how the games got worse to play since HoT and PoF. Buff weaver and you just create more people that play the game less and less as they look at their game play becoming face roll and choose to play something else.

Don't forget that if Firebrand was to get disabled for whatever reason the second best support spec by a mile is still tempest.

You also do not fix power creep with game wide nerfs to everyone, more so if you are trying to nerf people back to pre-HoT days. You would see more complaining if everyone was nerfed to their pre-expansion power levels. Stroll on over to the Necromancer forums and read some of their threads on the nerf to Abrasive Grit. They are extremely mad over that simple nerf. Do you realize how angry they would be if their entire profession, Core, Reaper, and Scourge, was nerfed just to make Elementalist players happy? They are tired of having their profession nerfed to suit the needs of other players. Now, take that anger and magnify it eightfold. Yeah, some folks hate power creep but you are not going to see game wide acceptance of a complete nerf to everything.

People would
REALLY
hate Elementalist for that. It would also destroy people's confidence in the game for good. Folks wouldn't see the point of buying any future expansions because people will complain about the power level of the new Elites until everything was nerfed again. Nerf everything and you'll see people play the game less and less as they start to think that their favorite profession will get screwed over to suit the whims of other players.

Simply put, game wide nerfs to fix Elementalist is just a horrible bad (and selfish) idea. You can address power creep without having to do that and insisting on nerfs does nothing more than produce unproductive discussions, as it is extremely unlikely that ANet would go down that road (they are smart enough to know how damaging it would be to their game). If you really want to help Elementalist or address power creep, then people need to start offering ANet ideas that they may actually do. If you really want to help Elementalist it is time to come up with creative fixes to the profession's problems. Nerfs solve nothing. Don't believe me? Then go read the threads in the Necromancer forum and see for yourself just how negatively received nerfs are.

Let's discuss real solutions that might actually have a chance of being implemented.

Nerfing would def make a lot of people angry, and it might create further imbalances, creating a situation more dire where you have more excuses to auto kick people who don't meet the dps threshold and further class elitism in both pve pvp and WVW.

I don't think it would necessarily fix the flaws either that elementalist has.

Some of the flaws the class has could be improved QOL that we could collectively ask for, like we have for tempest, and to me I think it would be far better use of energy to ask what is wrong with elementalist, and go from there.

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