Thief trap revealed and marked debuff from target painter/target painter trap redundancy

[DemonSeed.3528]

Since the new marked debuff and target painting etc, there is no longer any need to put a reveal on thief traps. The reveal should be removed since it is redundant.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Can someone at Anet please chime in? It has total counterplay now, can we get rid of the redundancy?

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Revealed should not come from the Thief's skills for any reason. I've said this many time over the years. Tone deaf ArenaNet don't care.

[Warkind.6745]

Remove reveal from the traps as in remove the physical damage component to bring back ghost thief? Lol, please no.

[DemonSeed.3528]

@Warkind.6745 said:Remove reveal from the traps as in remove the physical damage component to bring back ghost thief? Lol, please no.

There are traps/tricks to deal with it already - it now has an additional counter which means that the other one has to be removed for redundancy, there is no reason it needs to exist any longer. Ghost trapper thief is easily countered with the painter trap/trick, and besides, people taking traps aren't always going to be running perma stealth builds necessarily.

[Warkind.6745]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Warkind.6745 said:Remove reveal from the traps as in remove the physical damage component to bring back ghost thief? Lol, please no.

There are traps/tricks to deal with it already - it now has an additional counter which means that the other one has to be removed for redundancy, there is no reason it needs to exist any longer. Ghost trapper thief is easily countered with the painter trap/trick, and besides, people taking traps aren't always going to be running perma stealth builds necessarily.

I wouldn't really build the revival of ghost thieves on the back of clunky tricks that you won't get the opportunity to set up in a fight. Just like someone shouldn't be allowed to pull off a power burst without being revealed, they shouldn't be allowed to load someone up with a condi bomb and stay stealthed.

[DemonSeed.3528]

It's not bringing back ghost trapper thieves, it's making traps more useful. In fact, maybe they could use a buff instead if you're afraid of no reveals.

[Warkind.6745]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:It's not bringing back ghost trapper thieves, it's making traps more useful. In fact, maybe they could use a buff instead if you're afraid of no reveals.

Yes, but it's making traps more useful by removing the reason people stopped playing ghost thief. Which would encourage people to go back to playing ghost thief (thus bringing back ghost thief).

[DemonSeed.3528]

Except there is already double the amount of counters on it, there is no use for that. You are not looking at the bigger picture, there already existed counterplay - now there is a trap & a trick too, so there is no reason it needs a reveal on trigger anymore. The trap & tricks already render the reveal on trigger obsolete. That is an additional 2 ways, there does not need to be 3 when the 2 gets the job done. Are you saying that ghost thiefs are a problem with the new traps & tricks that we currently have? That makes no sense.

[Warkind.6745]

Ghost thieves aren't a problem because traps reveal you when you use them. If the target painter or previous stealth disrupt worked as an effective counter to stealth, people wouldn't be worried about deadeyes.

The reality of the situation is that the trap can only be used once (as thieves we can disengage pretty easily if we trigger it) and makes you vulnerable to burst while you set it up. Saying it's a realistic counter to stealth outside of five people laying down a trap grid is ridiculous.

[DemonSeed.3528]

How many ghost trapper thieves or trapper thieves (not using perma) have you come across since they put reveal on trap trigger? Now how many have you seen since after the new target painter trap/trick? Thief traps don't get used as much as you think they do. In fact 99.9% of the time I dare say you will rarely come across any thief using traps whether with a stealth build or not since the changes from before and recent. There are some who use traps, but not exclusively, maybe shadow trap, but how many of those have you come across? Seriously, like almost none. Taking reveal off the trap is not going to unbalance anything as there are perfect counters already in place. You're making it seem as if every thief who uses a trap is using it for a perma stealth build.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

Just take out stealth from game and give teef same amount of invu , gozilla dmg combined with hulk substain and unlimited boons like the other (so called not cheese) classes so that we can win fights on equal skill lvl.

[Warkind.6745]

You don't come across ghost thieves anymore because the build is now non-existent, and that's a good thing. I never said that traps are widely used or that traps are only used by perma stealth thieves; I'll try to sum up my argument as simply as possible.

No damage, physical or condition based, should be applied without revealing the person dealing it. WvW traps are not and have never been an efficient counter to stealth.

Ghost thief was out of circulation long before the target painter was released, because it was a cheesy and unbalanced build that got nerfed. As soon as traps lacked that easy kill potential they lost their flavor for most people. That doesn't mean they're bad or weak. Just because you can't faceroll people from stealth with them doesn't mean they're useless.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Many classes have reveal skills, even tether skills gained access to revealed on May 16th, 2017. Are you saying together with all of these things combined (tether, reveal skills, target trap, target painter trick) it is still not enough? Are traps going to be that much more unbalanced? I fail to see how. Again I will reiterate the point that it isn't necessarily used in conjunction with perma stealth builds because they can't. How are you going to faceroll people from stealth? Show me a working trap build that uses at least 2-3 traps with accompanying gameplay. Show me a trapper build that isn't bad or weak in its current iteration. Show me one that doesn't use trapper runes too. If that cannot be demonstrated with a wide variety of different enemies, I won't be able to understand your point of view about them not being bad or weak and my point still stands.

[DeceiverX.8361]

You generally can't cast a tether skill without an existing target. The entire point of ghost trapper was to never leave stealth.

The reason traps aren't used is because the traps themselves suck on thief; they were only ever used solely because it was allowable damage without being revealed and also increased sustained stealth uptime at no cost via trapper runes. It has almost nothing to do with the state of stealth or reveal otherwise. Traps won't be made good by buffing stealth unless they're given zero counterplay like before.

[DemonSeed.3528]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:You generally can't cast a tether skill without an existing target. The entire point of ghost trapper was to never leave stealth.

The reason traps aren't used is because the traps themselves suck on thief; they were only ever used solely because it was allowable damage without being revealed and also increased sustained stealth uptime at no cost via trapper runes. It has almost nothing to do with the state of stealth or reveal otherwise. Traps won't be made good by buffing stealth unless they're given zero counterplay like before.

There is actually an alternative and a golden opportunity here - Anet can remove and replace traps with another utility skillset and specialization traits that are more useful for all 3 game modes. It would be something fresh and (hopefully) more useful thing that has no stealth involvement.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:You generally can't cast a tether skill without an existing target. The entire point of ghost trapper was to never leave stealth.

The reason traps aren't used is because the traps themselves suck on thief; they were only ever used solely because it was allowable damage without being revealed and also increased sustained stealth uptime at no cost via trapper runes. It has almost nothing to do with the state of stealth or reveal otherwise. Traps won't be made good by buffing stealth unless they're given zero counterplay like before.

There is actually an alternative and a golden opportunity here - Anet can remove and replace traps with another utility skillset and specialization traits that are more useful for all 3 game modes. It would be something fresh and (hopefully) more useful thing that has no stealth involvement.

Be realistic here. That ain't happening.

D/D has needed a rework on only one skills for the past six years to make the kit usable. Not to mention ANet will see it as a wasted effort when they could just ship the newly-created skills as part of the next elite spec and profit from half the work, since nobody uses traps anyways and never has outside of one specific build.