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@"Gop.8713" said:Right! What you are saying is that once the amount of ap available (to everyone) exceeds the amount required for all of the unique rewards on the ap track, the problem will be solved. It's my solution exactly.

First that's not your solution. Second, there is no problem to solve. Exceeding the amount required for all the unique rewards is something that is already happening, as new achievements are added to the game. How do you know the game won't reach 80k achievement points while the current cap for unique rewards is only at 60k? I mean do you have evidence that the game will die before it allows its players to get the last unique reward? If so please share.

If they never remove unique rewards, the problem will never be solved.

I'm not sure what you are on about here. The answer is just above. Without removing the unique rewards, the amount of AP that the game provides can exceed the number required to earn the final reward. There is no need to remove the unique rewards as there is no problem.

So now the question to be asked is when should unique rewards be removed?

Never is the correct answer. We've already established that all players have access to all the unique rewards so there is no reason to remove them. You are forgetting that the question of removing unique rewards requires the DEATH of the game before enough achievements are added for all players to acquire all the rewards. Since you simply don't know if that will be the case, there is no reason to remove the unique rewards in the first place.

Again, if you have evidence to suggest that the game is gonna die soon, please share.

So you're saying your error was in assuming my reference to 'lost ap' had to do with the actual ap rather than the rewards they unlocked. I am still not sure how you made that error given that my solution only deals with the rewards and not the ap, but I am pleased that you gave me this opportunity to correct your misunderstanding . . .

I made no error. Your reference was about lost AP and since we've established that you can get all the achievement rewards it means your reference is about the LOST AP as a number and that alone. There is no misunderstanding here, only you twisting words, you clearly stated that you care about the missing AP, not about the rewards. I responded to your clear sentence. Missing AP and your "solution" are irrelevant to each other.

They can't tho . . .

They can, we've already established that. Don't go back to square one now.

My entire solution deals only with the unique rewards. The lost ap explains the why of so many players being forever behind in unlocking their unique rewards. I had explained this several times prior to this, and have several times since. I was hoping here that a concise explanation might get through where a detailed explanation did not. Apparently that hope was in vain, but again I appreciate your granting me the opportunity to correct your misunderstanding . . .

Again, there is no misunderstanding on my part. Your solution isn't required, as we've established that all players have access to all rewards. Then you complained about the lost AP as a completely separate issue, don't try to combine them now. Your solution and your complaint about lacking AP are separate. I responded to your desire to have lost AP back alone because you presented that sentence alone.

And hopefully now it is clear to you how your initial error was compounded by your second. Attributing motivations to someone else is never a good idea. If you want to know, ask, but there's really no advantage in knowing. An idea is sound or not regardless of the motive behind putting it forth . . .

Again, there was no initial error. Your motivation in the phrase was clear, you want the missing AP, not the unique rewards. If you think your motivation is any different then use different words. You clearly stated that the players will be missing AP, I responded to that. You misunderstood what you yourself typed.

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@Gop.8713 said:

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@Gop.8713 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.They can't tho . . .

They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

Actually no I can't, since you enjoy not addressing what other people said. Literally NOTHING you wrote addressed the points I made. You even admit your idea is imperfect but it's the best you came up with. I'm going one further: your idea is imperfect and addresses an issue which is not an issue at all to begin with but has a high chance of negatively impacting a lot of players. Others have gone on explaining why it's not an issue, I just don't care to continue this circle debate and I doubt the developers will in any way change their approach of the last 8 years on a subject matter as this.

You keep assuming maximum available AP is fixed or of significant amount of importance to a big enough part of the players base. Simple answer: you are wrong.

As mentioned earlier, if you are affected by this lack of access to season 1 AP (as am I), sorry for you, but you don't make up a significant amount of the player base.

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@"Gop.8713" said:They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

So again your issue isn't with the unique rewards but exclusively with that little number associated with your account.Funny when I said that you called it a "misunderstanding", but now you make it rather obvious.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:Right! What you are saying is that once the amount of ap available (to everyone) exceeds the amount required for all of the unique rewards on the ap track, the problem will be solved. It's my solution exactly.

First that's not your solution.It really is . . .Second, there is no problem to solve.You just described it as a problem to be solved . . .Exceeding the amount required for all the unique rewards is something that is already happening, as new achievements are added to the game.See? It's 'happening', as in, hasn't happened yet. You're just hoping. If there wasn't a problem, you wouldn't need the amount available to everyone to exceed any set amount, it could just stop at any time. What you're saying is that there is a problem, but it will solve itself if anet introduces enough ap in the future and they remove unique rewards in the portion of the track not yet revealed . . .How do you know the game won't reach 80k achievement points while the current cap for unique rewards is only at 60k?You're doing it again here. You're saying "see, imagine this possible time in the future when they problem would no longer exist'. If the problem didn't exist now, you would not need to hypothesize . . .I mean do you have evidence that the game will die before it allows its players to get the last unique reward? If so please share.Do you have evidence that the missing ap is not blocking players from unique rewards right now? I'll give you a hint, you don't :)

If they never remove unique rewards, the problem will never be solved.

I'm not sure what you are on about here. The answer is just above. Without removing the unique rewards, the amount of AP that the game provides can exceed the number required to earn the final reward. There is no need to remove the unique rewards as there is no problem.This is just a straight misunderstanding of word use then. The track has always included unique rewards, just as it has always included gem rewards, gold rewards, etc. If, in future portions of the track, no unique rewards exist, then unique rewards will have been removed from the track at that point. Your argument actually hinges on this eventual removal, and ofc the continued introducing of more ap thereafter. Note that this is not when I would think it best to remove the rewards, I think it should be done sooner. But it would be removal either way . . .

So now the question to be asked is when should unique rewards be removed?

Never is the correct answer.Then players will be forever locked out of some of those rewards. This actually wouldn't be a problem if not for the missing ap from lost content . . .We've already established that all players have access to all the unique rewardsexcept they don't. You're hoping that they will someday, which requires the rewards to be removed and ap to continue to increase to some amount past that point, to compensate for the missing ap . . .so there is no reason to remove them. You are forgetting that the question of removing unique rewards requires the DEATH of the game before enough achievements are added for all players to acquire all the rewards. Since you simply don't know if that will be the case, there is no reason to remove the unique rewards in the first place.I actually agreed that this future removal and continued introduction of ap would solve the problem, like two pages ago actually :pI just don't think it's a good of a solution as removing the rewards earlier . . .Again, if you have evidence to suggest that the game is gonna die soon, please share.Would that be wise? Wouldn't it be one of those self-fulfilling prophecy things . . ?

So you're saying your error was in assuming my reference to 'lost ap' had to do with the actual ap rather than the rewards they unlocked. I am still not sure how you made that error given that my solution only deals with the rewards and not the ap, but I am pleased that you gave me this opportunity to correct your misunderstanding . . .

I made no error. Your reference was about lost AP and since we've established that you can get all the achievement rewards it means your reference is about the LOST AP as a number and that alone. There is no misunderstanding here, only you twisting words, you clearly stated that you care about the missing AP, not about the rewards. I responded to your clear sentence. Missing AP and your "solution" are irrelevant to each other.This is just absurd, and that's really saying something at this point. You're actually claiming to know my mind better than I do. Consider for yourself why I would mention missing ap in any context other than how it affects unique rewards, if by your own admission missing ap has nothing to do with my solution to the problem . . .

They can't tho . . .

They can, we've already established that. Don't go back to square one now.I'm not sure we've ever left square one tbh. What you are trying to say is 'could' as in 'might be possible one day'. I'm talking about a problem that actually exists today, and would continue to exist in the future day you are referring to, unless the unique rewards are removed from the track . . .

My entire solution deals only with the unique rewards. The lost ap explains the why of so many players being forever behind in unlocking their unique rewards. I had explained this several times prior to this, and have several times since. I was hoping here that a concise explanation might get through where a detailed explanation did not. Apparently that hope was in vain, but again I appreciate your granting me the opportunity to correct your misunderstanding . . .

Again, there is no misunderstanding on my part. Your solution isn't required, as we've established that all players have access to all rewards. Then you complained about the lost AP as a completely separate issue, don't try to combine them now. Your solution and your complaint about lacking AP are separate. I responded to your desire to have lost AP back alone because you presented that sentence alone.No, I presented it in reply to your suggestion that someone being 6k (your example) short of current rewards is irrelevant bc they would eventually reach current rewards as long as enough new ap is introduced. My point was that after another 6k ap was introduced, they would still be 6k short of what would then be current rewards, i.e. they would never recover the ap to catch up to current rewards. I actually specifically pointed out earlier in a reply to another poster why I thought trying to introduce make-up ap was an inferior solution to mine . . .

And hopefully now it is clear to you how your initial error was compounded by your second. Attributing motivations to someone else is never a good idea. If you want to know, ask, but there's really no advantage in knowing. An idea is sound or not regardless of the motive behind putting it forth . . .

Again, there was no initial error. Your motivation in the phrase was clear, you want the missing AP, not the unique rewards. If you think your motivation is any different then use different words. You clearly stated that the players will be missing AP, I responded to that.I've explained it twice now. But this isn't just something that will benefit you here if you can come around. It would be like a life lesson at this point . . .You misunderstood what you yourself typed.This should go in someone's sig. Not mine, bc that would be mean, but some impartial third party really deserves to have this . . .

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.They can't tho . . .

They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

Actually no I can't, since you enjoy not addressing what other people said. Literally NOTHING you wrote addressed the points I made.:(Your point:@Cyninja.2954 said:One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.My reply:@Gop.8713 said:I never said I wanted anet to spend the resources to reintroduce the old content. My point is that removing the unique rewards from the track eliminates part of the cost of not being able to restore the content, and this solution appeals to me precisely bc it has no dev cost . . .How is that not responsive . . ?@Cyninja.2954 said:You even admit your idea is imperfect but it's the best you came up with. I'm going one further: your idea is imperfect and addresses an issue which is not an issue at all to begin with but has a high chance of negatively impacting a lot of players.I'd be interested in hearing more about potential negative impacts . . .Others have gone on explaining why it's not an issue,They haven't actually. They best anyone has done is explain why they don't care about it, which isn't the same thing . . .I just don't care to continue this circle debate and I doubt the developers will in any way change their approach of the last 8 years on a subject matter as this.Yes I don't really expect anything to change either. I would like for someone to try to come up with a better solution than mine instead of just pretending the problem doesn't exist, however . . .You keep assuming maximum available AP is fixed or of significant amount of importance to a big enough part of the players base. Simple answer: you are wrong.I have not made either of those assumptions. I have said that the amount of lost ap is fixed, which isn't an assumption, and I have very specifically stated that I have no way of knowing how important this is to anyone. I actually specifically said that I didn't think it was a huge deal, and was only worth considering due to the low dev cost . . .As mentioned earlier, if you are affected by this lack of access to season 1 AP (as am I), sorry for you, but you don't make up a significant amount of the player base.We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gop.8713 said:They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

So again your issue isn't with the unique rewards but exclusively with that little number associated with your account.Funny when I said that you called it a "misunderstanding", but now you make it rather obvious.

?

@maddoctor.2738 said:I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game,@Gop.8713 said:They can't tho . . .@Cyninja.2954 said:They can.@Gop.8713 said:They can't.This might be helpful. Where, in your mind, did that exchange stop being about the rewards you mention and start being about ap, which isn't mentioned . . ?

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@"Gop.8713" said:It really is . . .

Your solution is to remove unique rewards. I said that all unique rewards are available to all players, how is it the same?

You just described it as a problem to be solved . . .

With the rather large condition of the game being dead first. But it's not dead.

See? It's 'happening', as in, hasn't happened yet.

That's how an infinite supply of something works.

You're doing it again here. You're saying "see, imagine this possible time in the future when they problem would no longer exist'. If the problem didn't exist now, you would not need to hypothesize . . .

It's not a problem that exists now because AP are still being added. When they stop, and considering the state of the game when they do, it might become a problem.

Do you have evidence that the missing ap is not blocking players from unique rewards right now? I'll give you a hint, you don't :)

That's irrelevant. Do you have evidence that new AP won't be added to the game that will allow those players to get the unique rewards they are missing? I'll give you a hint, you don't :)

This is just a straight misunderstanding of word use then. The track has always included unique rewards, just as it has always included gem rewards, gold rewards, etc. If, in future portions of the track, no unique rewards exist, then unique rewards will have been removed from the track at that point. Your argument actually hinges on this eventual removal, and ofc the continued introducing of more ap thereafter. Note that this is not when I would think it best to remove the rewards, I think it should be done sooner. But it would be removal either way . . .

That assumes that there is something beyond the 60k. Since we'll reach 60k in about 6.4 years it's premature to discuss that possibility.

Then players will be forever locked out of some of those rewards. This actually wouldn't be a problem if not for the missing ap from lost content . . .

No they won't be locked out of the rewards. They will finish the AP added to the game, it's still an active and alive game after all.

except they don't. You're hoping that they will someday, which requires the rewards to be removed and ap to continue to increase to some amount past that point, to compensate for the missing ap . . .

It doesn't require for the rewards to be removed and I'm not hoping anything. Again, if you have evidence that the game is gonna die soon, please share. I'm making the assumption that the game's death is far in the future, unless proven otherwise.

I actually agreed that this future removal and continued introduction of ap would solve the problem, like two pages ago actually :p

There was no future removal suggestion though so I'm not sure what or who you agreed with. Continued introduction of AP yes, it's something that already happens

This is just absurd, and that's really saying something at this point. You're actually claiming to know my mind better than I do. Consider for yourself why I would mention missing ap in any context other than how it affects unique rewards, if by your own admission missing ap has nothing to do with my solution to the problem . . .

I wonder that too. But you did mention it, you clearly stated that "They will still be missing the AP", which has nothing to do with unique rewards.

I'm not sure we've ever left square one tbh. What you are trying to say is 'could' as in 'might be possible one day'. I'm talking about a problem that actually exists today, and would continue to exist in the future day you are referring to, unless the unique rewards are removed from the track . . .

I think the problem here is that you fail to accept the fact that players have access to all the rewards. You are talking about a problem that doesn't exist today but will appear in the very far future. It's confusing that you propose a solution to something that might not be a problem in the first place and will appear in 6.4 years from now. Not only it's not a problem now, but it might not even be a problem then, it's a very specific set of parameters that will make this a problem in the very far future and you propose a "solution" for it now. Why?

No, I presented it in reply to your suggestion that someone being 6k (your example) short of current rewards is irrelevant bc they would eventually reach current rewards as long as enough new ap is introduced. My point was that after another 6k ap was introduced, they would still be 6k short of what would then be current rewards, i.e. they would never recover the ap to catch up to current rewards. I actually specifically pointed out earlier in a reply to another poster why I thought trying to introduce make-up ap was an inferior solution to mine . . .

I didnt' suggest anything, I spoke what is happening with achievements. Someone with 6k will reach all the rewards as new AP are being introduced. Your point was that they would still be missing the numbers (not the rewards, they will get there as you yourself just said) meaning you only cared about that number and not the rewards. Which is what confuses you and clouds your reasoning ever since.

This should go in someone's sig. Not mine, bc that would be mean, but some impartial third party really deserves to have this . . .

Well it's what you are doing. Typing something then putting words in other's posts coming out of nowhere.

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@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.They can't tho . . .

They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

Actually no I can't, since you enjoy not addressing what other people said. Literally NOTHING you wrote addressed the points I made.:(Your point:@Cyninja.2954 said:One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.My reply:@Gop.8713 said:I never said I wanted anet to spend the resources to reintroduce the old content. My point is that removing the unique rewards from the track eliminates part of the cost of not being able to restore the content, and this solution appeals to me precisely bc it has no dev cost . . .How is that not responsive . . ?@Cyninja.2954 said:You even admit your idea is imperfect but it's the best you came up with. I'm going one further: your idea is imperfect and addresses an issue which is not an issue at all to begin with but has a high chance of negatively impacting a lot of players.I'd be interested in hearing more about potential negative impacts . . .

This was already answered in this thread, you just selectively decided to omit the answer. Unique rewards behind AP are loyalty rewards for players who engage in gathering AP. You pretending like players would love to have these unique rewards removed is ignorant. Nor is it even healthy for the game. Feel free to ignore this answer though, just like the one last time.

@Gop.8713 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Others have gone on explaining why it's not an issue,They haven't actually. They best anyone has done is explain why they don't care about it, which isn't the same thing . . .I just don't care to continue this circle debate and I doubt the developers will in any way change their approach of the last 8 years on a subject matter as this.Yes I don't really expect anything to change either. I would like for someone to try to come up with a better solution than mine instead of just pretending the problem doesn't exist, however . . .You keep assuming maximum available AP is fixed or of significant amount of importance to a big enough part of the players base. Simple answer: you are wrong.I have not made either of those assumptions. I have said that the amount of lost ap is fixed, which isn't an assumption, and I have very specifically stated that I have no way of knowing how important this is to anyone. I actually specifically said that I didn't think it was a huge deal, and was only worth considering due to the low dev cost . . .

The AP is not fixed as long as new achievements get added into the game. Feel free to look at this issue from a singular point in time. That's short sighted and never a good idea for balance suggestions. AP are NOT fixed. They are in constant increase currently while the game is in development.

@Gop.8713 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:As mentioned earlier, if you are affected by this lack of access to season 1 AP (as am I), sorry for you, but you don't make up a significant amount of the player base.We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

This is where we both disagree. I don't think a large portion of the player base is affected by this, nor do I think any part of the player base significant enough even cares, as long as new achievements get added into the game.

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@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

So again your issue isn't with the unique rewards but exclusively with that little number associated with your account.Funny when I said that you called it a "misunderstanding", but now you make it rather obvious.This might be helpful. Where, in your mind, did that exchange stop being about the rewards you mention and start being about ap, which isn't mentioned . . ?

I quoted a different part when responding though. You are still fixated on the number of AP you, or others that missed S1, currently have. Since every player has access to and will acquire all possible rewards, the only reason to be as fixated about what you "can" and not what "you will" get is because you care about your current points. That requires some hardcore achievement caring right there. I didn't know anyone would be so obsessed with that number.

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@Gop.8713 said:We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

To burst your bubble right there. 10% of the players of this game have above 2878 Achievement Points. 90% are under that. Meaning that missing 5.8k AP from festivals + S1 affects such a tiny minority that is not even worth considering.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:It really is . . .

Your solution is to remove unique rewards. I said that all unique rewards are available to all players, how is it the same?You said that all unique rewards are available to all players, which isn't true. You've also said that as long as new cheeves are introduced, all players will eventually be able to unlock all unique rewards, so long as the introduction of unique rewards stops before the amount of ap available catches up enough to cover the gap created by the lost ap. This is the same thing as my solution, it just takes a lot longer. You're saying the problem will never exist as long as the rewards end before the ap catches up, I'm saying that since that hasn't happened, the problem exists now . . .

You just described it as a problem to be solved . . .

With the rather large condition of the game being dead first. But it's not dead.

See? It's 'happening', as in, hasn't happened yet.

That's how an infinite supply of something works.Well, first off the supply isn't infinite, but I get your point. My point is that the 'infinite' supply only catches up to the deficit if the unique rewards are removed at some point. At that point the supply would eventually become sufficient to unlock all rewards (even though the deficit would remain, it would be meaningless. See what I mean? It's about the rewards, not the ap) . . .

You're doing it again here. You're saying "see, imagine this possible time in the future when they problem would no longer exist'. If the problem didn't exist now, you would not need to hypothesize . . .

It's not a problem that exists now because AP are still being added. When they stop, and considering the state of the game when they do, it might become a problem.And what's really amazing is it doesn't even matter that you have no reason to believe ap will continue while unique rewards will not. It's like you're saying that since there is a theoretical future which could solve an existing problem, the problem does not in fact exist. This does not follow . . .

Do you have evidence that the missing ap is not blocking players from unique rewards right now? I'll give you a hint, you don't :)

That's irrelevant.Well, it's pretty much my entire point so if you'd like to dispute it, it can't really be irrelevant ;pDo you have evidence that new AP won't be added to the game that will allow those players to get the unique rewards they are missing? I'll give you a hint, you don't :)Nor do I have any evidence that the unique rewards will one day stop being introduced. The difference is that I do have evidence that players are being blocked from unique rewards right now, you do not have evidence that players will be granted access to all unique rewards at some time in the future. You're just hoping, again . . .

This is just a straight misunderstanding of word use then. The track has always included unique rewards, just as it has always included gem rewards, gold rewards, etc. If, in future portions of the track, no unique rewards exist, then unique rewards will have been removed from the track at that point. Your argument actually hinges on this eventual removal, and ofc the continued introducing of more ap thereafter. Note that this is not when I would think it best to remove the rewards, I think it should be done sooner. But it would be removal either way . . .

That assumes that there is something beyond the 60k. Since we'll reach 60k in about 6.4 years it's premature to discuss that possibility.Well, i mean, it was your idea. I'm in favor of an earlier removal . . .

Then players will be forever locked out of some of those rewards. This actually wouldn't be a problem if not for the missing ap from lost content . . .

No they won't be locked out of the rewards. They will finish the AP added to the game, it's still an active and alive game after all.I'm curious as to why you have this faith in the continued introduction of ap, but not in the continued introduction of rewards . . ?

except they don't. You're hoping that they will someday, which requires the rewards to be removed and ap to continue to increase to some amount past that point, to compensate for the missing ap . . .

It doesn't require for the rewards to be removed and I'm not hoping anything. Again, if you have evidence that the game is gonna die soon, please share. I'm making the assumption that the game's death is far in the future, unless proven otherwise.And so you're assuming that ap will continue to be introduced, but not rewards. Again I must ask why . . .

I actually agreed that this future removal and continued introduction of ap would solve the problem, like two pages ago actually :p

There was no future removal suggestion though so I'm not sure what or who you agreed with. Continued introduction of AP yes, it's something that already happensOkay, so what I'm saying is that the ap only helps if the rewards are eventually removed. If both ap and rewards continue to be introduced, we're in the same place we are now, just further along the line . . .

This is just absurd, and that's really saying something at this point. You're actually claiming to know my mind better than I do. Consider for yourself why I would mention missing ap in any context other than how it affects unique rewards, if by your own admission missing ap has nothing to do with my solution to the problem . . .

I wonder that too. But you did mention it, you clearly stated that "They will still be missing the AP", which has nothing to do with unique rewards.AP is actually how the rewards are unlocked. So if you now have X ap, and Y ap is lost to you, you would have received X+Y's rewards at this point if not for the missing ap. When some Z ap greater than Y is introduced in the future, you would then have unlocked X+Y+Z's rewards, not just X+Z's, if not for the missing ap. The missing ap never goes away, and goes directly to which rewards would be unlocked. Its value is not intrinsic, its value is in unlocking the rewards . . .

I'm not sure we've ever left square one tbh. What you are trying to say is 'could' as in 'might be possible one day'. I'm talking about a problem that actually exists today, and would continue to exist in the future day you are referring to, unless the unique rewards are removed from the track . . .

I think the problem here is that you fail to accept the fact that players have access to all the rewards.While I think the problem is that you fail to accept that they don't. The difference is that the fact that they don't is provable . . .You are talking about a problem that doesn't exist today but will appear in the very far future.No, I'm talking about a problem that does exist today but could disappear in the very far future . . .It's confusing that you propose a solution to something that might not be a problem in the first place and will appear in 6.4 years from now. Not only it's not a problem now, but it might not even be a problem then, it's a very specific set of parameters that will make this a problem in the very far future and you propose a "solution" for it now. Why?Bc it exists now, and the fact that a very specific set of parameters could make it go away at some point in the future doesn't really help in the present moment . . .

No, I presented it in reply to your suggestion that someone being 6k (your example) short of current rewards is irrelevant bc they would eventually reach current rewards as long as enough new ap is introduced. My point was that after another 6k ap was introduced, they would still be 6k short of what would then be current rewards, i.e. they would never recover the ap to catch up to current rewards. I actually specifically pointed out earlier in a reply to another poster why I thought trying to introduce make-up ap was an inferior solution to mine . . .

I didnt' suggest anything, I spoke what is happening with achievements. Someone with 6k will reach all the rewards as new AP are being introduced.And if 6k ap is lost to them right now, how much of that ap would not still be lost to them at that point . . ?Your point was that they would still be missing the numbers (not the rewards, they will get there as you yourself just said)Only if the rewards stop. I said that if they are 6k behind rn, then in another 6k of cheeves they would be caught up to the rewards they would have unlocked rn, but another 6k of cheeves would have also been unlocked by that point. I believe you said something about the rewards we currently know about stopping at 60k. Is the current max available plus 6k more or less than 60k . . ?meaning you only cared about that number and not the rewards. Which is what confuses you and clouds your reasoning ever since.Nope, still don't care, haven't cared at any point. I don't even know the numbers, I'm just using yours bc if I didn't it would be one more thing for you to argue about . . .

This should go in someone's sig. Not mine, bc that would be mean, but some impartial third party really deserves to have this . . .

Well it's what you are doing. Typing something then putting words in other's posts coming out of nowhere.Actually I'm correcting your misunderstandings while you insist on clinging to them . . .

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.They can't tho . . .

They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

Actually no I can't, since you enjoy not addressing what other people said. Literally NOTHING you wrote addressed the points I made.:(Your point:@Cyninja.2954 said:One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.My reply:@Gop.8713 said:I never said I wanted anet to spend the resources to reintroduce the old content. My point is that removing the unique rewards from the track eliminates part of the cost of not being able to restore the content, and this solution appeals to me precisely bc it has no dev cost . . .How is that not responsive . . ?@Cyninja.2954 said:You even admit your idea is imperfect but it's the best you came up with. I'm going one further: your idea is imperfect and addresses an issue which is not an issue at all to begin with but has a high chance of negatively impacting a lot of players.I'd be interested in hearing more about potential negative impacts . . .

This was already answered in this thread, you just selectively decided to omit the answer. Unique rewards behind AP are loyalty rewards for players who engage in gathering AP. You pretending like players would love to have these unique rewards removed is ignorant. Nor is it even healthy for the game. Feel free to ignore this answer though, just like the one last time.I do remember that, but since I considered it resolved I didn't know it was what you were referring to. AP rewards are not loyalty rewards, but if that is the issue then the solution could dovetail nicely with my solution to the problem with the lost AP. After the unique rewards are removed from the AP track, they could be introduced into birthday gifts, which are loyalty rewards. Problem solved :)

@Gop.8713 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Others have gone on explaining why it's not an issue,They haven't actually. They best anyone has done is explain why they don't care about it, which isn't the same thing . . .I just don't care to continue this circle debate and I doubt the developers will in any way change their approach of the last 8 years on a subject matter as this.Yes I don't really expect anything to change either. I would like for someone to try to come up with a better solution than mine instead of just pretending the problem doesn't exist, however . . .You keep assuming maximum available AP is fixed or of significant amount of importance to a big enough part of the players base. Simple answer: you are wrong.I have not made either of those assumptions. I have said that the amount of lost ap is fixed, which isn't an assumption, and I have very specifically stated that I have no way of knowing how important this is to anyone. I actually specifically said that I didn't think it was a huge deal, and was only worth considering due to the low dev cost . . .

The AP is not fixed as long as new achievements get added into the game. Feel free to look at this issue from a singular point in time. That's short sighted and never a good idea for balance suggestions. AP are NOT fixed. They are in constant increase currently while the game is in development.Yes, you are correct, AP is not fixed, but the lost ap is. If X ap is lost to you rn, it will continue to be lost to you at any point you choose in the future. Unless it is somehow reintroduced in some way, but I thought we both agreed that wasn't a good idea . . ?

@Gop.8713 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:As mentioned earlier, if you are affected by this lack of access to season 1 AP (as am I), sorry for you, but you don't make up a significant amount of the player base.We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

This is where we both disagree. I don't think a large portion of the player base is affected by this, nor do I think any part of the player base significant enough even cares, as long as new achievements get added into the game.I think you're just using 'affected' differently. If a player is missing ap from the lost content, they are affected. So unless you do not believe that a large portion of the player base was not around for LS1, you would have to agree that a large portion of the player base is affected. It doesn't matter how much they care about it. I think we agree that it is not a major concern to many, if any, players, and I'm only considering a solution bc it is low cost . . .@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

So again your issue isn't with the unique rewards but exclusively with that little number associated with your account.Funny when I said that you called it a "misunderstanding", but now you make it rather obvious.This might be helpful. Where, in your mind, did that exchange stop being about the rewards you mention and start being about ap, which isn't mentioned . . ?

I quoted a different part when responding though.I thought I was pretty careful in tracing that conversation, but if you feel you can find something I missed I can try to find why you became confused there for you instead . . .You are still fixated on the number of AP you, or others that missed S1, currently have.No, I'm fixated on how that amount blocks their access to unique rewards, and will continue to do so until the amount of ap available exceeds the available unique rewards by enough to eclipse the gap . . .Since every player has access to and will acquire all possible rewards,Both untrue. "All possible rewards" don't even exist yet, and very few players even bother to acquire the ones they do have access to . . .the only reason to be as fixated about what you "can" and not what "you will" get is because you care about your current points.Or if I cared about, say, for example -- and this is just total blue sky thinking here so bear with me -- the rewards that I currently have access to, rather than the rewards I might have access to in the future . . .That requires some hardcore achievement caring right there. I didn't know anyone would be so obsessed with that number.Oh I'm sure they exist. Probably just don't frequent the forums. There was that one guy earlier in the thread who had a bunch I think . . .@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gop.8713 said:We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

To burst your bubble right there. 10% of the players of this game have above 2878 Achievement Points. 90% are under that. Meaning that missing 5.8k AP from festivals + S1 affects such a tiny minority that is not even worth considering.

Just completely ignoring that your data is totally bogus for a moment, consider that's seven unique rewards locked behind that missing ap for that player at 2878. And when that player gets another 122, one of those unique rewards gets unlocked (yay :) ) but then, another 200 ap after that they are blocked from another reward until they get another 800 ap. And so it goes, unless and until the rewards stop, and they can finally catch up . . .

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@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.They can't tho . . .

They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

Actually no I can't, since you enjoy not addressing what other people said. Literally NOTHING you wrote addressed the points I made.:(Your point:@Cyninja.2954 said:One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.My reply:@Gop.8713 said:I never said I wanted anet to spend the resources to reintroduce the old content. My point is that removing the unique rewards from the track eliminates part of the cost of not being able to restore the content, and this solution appeals to me precisely bc it has no dev cost . . .How is that not responsive . . ?@Cyninja.2954 said:You even admit your idea is imperfect but it's the best you came up with. I'm going one further: your idea is imperfect and addresses an issue which is not an issue at all to begin with but has a high chance of negatively impacting a lot of players.I'd be interested in hearing more about potential negative impacts . . .

This was already answered in this thread, you just selectively decided to omit the answer. Unique rewards behind AP are loyalty rewards for players who engage in gathering AP. You pretending like players would love to have these unique rewards removed is ignorant. Nor is it even healthy for the game. Feel free to ignore this answer though, just like the one last time.I do remember that, but since I considered it resolved I didn't know it was what you were referring to. AP rewards are not loyalty rewards, but if that is the issue then the solution could dovetail nicely with my solution to the problem with the lost AP. After the unique rewards are removed from the AP track, they could be introduced into birthday gifts, which are loyalty rewards. Problem solved :)

Well I see AP rewards as loyalty rewards. You can decide not to. Given they are in part granted for time sensitive events on a regular basis, we can both decide the other is incorrect.

Again, your "solution" might sound great to you, to me personally it's terrible. I actually enjoy looking forward to what I might get with continued AP gain, even at a vastly reduced speed right now since I am quite capped. I'd assume there will be some other players in the same boat as me. Not to mention that birthday gifts are even worse a mechanic than AP as far as reward exclusivity goes.

Given you need a very good reason to change the status quo, even if the status quo is not ideal, I still fail to see your argument as meeting this requirement.

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Others have gone on explaining why it's not an issue,They haven't actually. They best anyone has done is explain why they don't care about it, which isn't the same thing . . .I just don't care to continue this circle debate and I doubt the developers will in any way change their approach of the last 8 years on a subject matter as this.Yes I don't really expect anything to change either. I would like for someone to try to come up with a better solution than mine instead of just pretending the problem doesn't exist, however . . .You keep assuming maximum available AP is fixed or of significant amount of importance to a big enough part of the players base. Simple answer: you are wrong.I have not made either of those assumptions. I have said that the amount of lost ap is fixed, which isn't an assumption, and I have very specifically stated that I have no way of knowing how important this is to anyone. I actually specifically said that I didn't think it was a huge deal, and was only worth considering due to the low dev cost . . .

The AP is not fixed as long as new achievements get added into the game. Feel free to look at this issue from a singular point in time. That's short sighted and never a good idea for balance suggestions. AP are NOT fixed. They are in constant increase currently while the game is in development.Yes, you are correct, AP is not fixed, but the lost ap is. If X ap is lost to you rn, it will continue to be lost to you at any point you choose in the future. Unless it is somehow reintroduced in some way, but I thought we both agreed that wasn't a good idea . . ?

Which does not matter if AP are not fixed UNTIL no new AP are introduced. Once that happens, you can revisit this issue. Until then, you are looking at this issue from a singular point in time, while most people disagreeing are looking at the bigger picture.

I said reintroducing the AP was a bad idea from a resource stand point versus simply adding new AP. You have your own definition for why it might be bad or not bad, I really wouldn't know given you've been jumping around wildly in this thread by now.

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:As mentioned earlier, if you are affected by this lack of access to season 1 AP (as am I), sorry for you, but you don't make up a significant amount of the player base.We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

This is where we both disagree. I don't think a large portion of the player base is affected by this, nor do I think any part of the player base significant enough even cares, as long as new achievements get added into the game.I think you're just using 'affected' differently. If a player is missing ap from the lost content, they are affected.

That is incorrect. They are affected IF they care about it and/or are at their AP cap. Otherwise they are not affected from a stand point of necessity of change or "fixing" or even caring. I used the word in context of how important this is to change and addressing this issue. Obviously everyone who is missing these AP is affected, but it would be retarded to assume or approach this issue from that perspective.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.They can't tho . . .

They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

Actually no I can't, since you enjoy not addressing what other people said. Literally NOTHING you wrote addressed the points I made.:(Your point:@Cyninja.2954 said:One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.My reply:@Gop.8713 said:I never said I wanted anet to spend the resources to reintroduce the old content. My point is that removing the unique rewards from the track eliminates part of the cost of not being able to restore the content, and this solution appeals to me precisely bc it has no dev cost . . .How is that not responsive . . ?@Cyninja.2954 said:You even admit your idea is imperfect but it's the best you came up with. I'm going one further: your idea is imperfect and addresses an issue which is not an issue at all to begin with but has a high chance of negatively impacting a lot of players.I'd be interested in hearing more about potential negative impacts . . .

This was already answered in this thread, you just selectively decided to omit the answer. Unique rewards behind AP are loyalty rewards for players who engage in gathering AP. You pretending like players would love to have these unique rewards removed is ignorant. Nor is it even healthy for the game. Feel free to ignore this answer though, just like the one last time.I do remember that, but since I considered it resolved I didn't know it was what you were referring to. AP rewards are not loyalty rewards, but if that is the issue then the solution could dovetail nicely with my solution to the problem with the lost AP. After the unique rewards are removed from the AP track, they could be introduced into birthday gifts, which are loyalty rewards. Problem solved :)

Well I see AP rewards as loyalty rewards. You can decide not to. Given they are in part granted for time sensitive events on a regular basis, we can both decide the other is incorrect.That's fair enough. I see loyalty rewards as rewards granted for being a long term player, such as birthday rewards, or for committing to the game in some way, like pre-purchasing, or purchasing before before part goes f2p, for example. And that's the broadest definition I could consider. Rewards for doing time sensitive events on a regular basis are rewards for doing the events . . .Again, your "solution" might sound great to you, to me personally it's terrible. I actually enjoy looking forward to what I might get with continued AP gain, even at a vastly reduced speed right now since I am quite capped. I'd assume there will be some other players in the same boat as me. Not to mention that birthday gifts are even worse a mechanic than AP as far as reward exclusivity goes.It wasn't really my solution though, it was a solution to another person's problem, which was that they wanted more loyalty rewards. If that person now decides they don't like the idea of loyalty rewards so much after all, we can just keep trying to find a better solution. Note that exclusivity is not the problem we're trying to solve here, inequity is . . .Given you need a very good reason to change the status quo, even if the status quo is not ideal, I still fail to see your argument as meeting this requirement.Inequity is more compelling to me. Ppl are different . . .

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Others have gone on explaining why it's not an issue,They haven't actually. They best anyone has done is explain why they don't care about it, which isn't the same thing . . .I just don't care to continue this circle debate and I doubt the developers will in any way change their approach of the last 8 years on a subject matter as this.Yes I don't really expect anything to change either. I would like for someone to try to come up with a better solution than mine instead of just pretending the problem doesn't exist, however . . .You keep assuming maximum available AP is fixed or of significant amount of importance to a big enough part of the players base. Simple answer: you are wrong.I have not made either of those assumptions. I have said that the amount of lost ap is fixed, which isn't an assumption, and I have very specifically stated that I have no way of knowing how important this is to anyone. I actually specifically said that I didn't think it was a huge deal, and was only worth considering due to the low dev cost . . .

The AP is not fixed as long as new achievements get added into the game. Feel free to look at this issue from a singular point in time. That's short sighted and never a good idea for balance suggestions. AP are NOT fixed. They are in constant increase currently while the game is in development.Yes, you are correct, AP is not fixed, but the lost ap is. If X ap is lost to you rn, it will continue to be lost to you at any point you choose in the future. Unless it is somehow reintroduced in some way, but I thought we both agreed that wasn't a good idea . . ?

Which does not matter if AP are not fixed UNTIL no new AP are introduced. Once that happens, you can revisit this issue. Until then, you are looking at this issue from a singular point in time, while most people disagreeing are looking at the bigger picture.This position just does not make any sense of any kind to me. The problem is affecting players right now. In this moment. Now is when the problem is occurring. The problem will continue to occur at every moment in time from now until the amount of ap available in the game exceeds the amount required to unlock all unique rewards plus enough to cover the gap created by the lost ap. Without any other action, the time when the problem could disappear by itself under a certain set of circumstances is very very distant . . .

I said reintroducing the AP was a bad idea from a resource stand point versus simply adding new AP. You have your own definition for why it might be bad or not bad, I really wouldn't know given you've been jumping around wildly in this thread by now.Well I certainly won't apologize for carefully and individually replying to the concerns of everyone who expressed an interest in my idea, I am sorry if it was too much for you to keep up with. It's certainly understandable . . .

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:As mentioned earlier, if you are affected by this lack of access to season 1 AP (as am I), sorry for you, but you don't make up a significant amount of the player base.We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

This is where we both disagree. I don't think a large portion of the player base is affected by this, nor do I think any part of the player base significant enough even cares, as long as new achievements get added into the game.I think you're just using 'affected' differently. If a player is missing ap from the lost content, they are affected.

That is incorrect. They are affected IF they care about it and/or are at their AP cap. Otherwise they are not affected from a stand point of necessity of change or "fixing" or even caring. I used the word in context of how important this is to change and addressing this issue. Obviously everyone who is missing these AP is affected, but it would be kitten to assume or approach this issue from that perspective.In other words what I said was exactly correct, you just don't consider affected players important until they are aware of how they are affected and care enough about it to meet some threshold. I disagree. Fixing problems ppl don't know they have is one of the most satisfying sorts of aid . . .
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@Gop.8713 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:That is incorrect. They are affected IF they care about it and/or are at their AP cap. Otherwise they are not affected from a stand point of necessity of change or "fixing" or even caring. I used the word in context of how important this is to change and addressing this issue. Obviously everyone who is missing these AP is affected, but it would be kitten to assume or approach this issue from that perspective.In other words what I said was exactly correct, you just don't consider affected players important until they are aware of how they are affected and care enough about it to meet some threshold. I disagree. Fixing problems ppl don't know they have is one of the most satisfying sorts of aid . . .

Exactly, and in a world where resources are finite and decision must be made how to spend those, I'll stick with my decision to focus on issues which affect players in a noticeable way. This is not such an issue.

Once the game is in maintenance mode AND players start caring about not being able to reach the maximum AP and rewards due to lack of new AP sources, then is the time for you to shine. Until then, take a more realistic and reasonable approach to this issue. Or not, your choice.

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@Gop.8713 said:You said that all unique rewards are available to all players, which isn't true.

As explained numerous times it is true. I'm not sure how this discussion reached this point and you still contest something like this. Is the game dead? No. Does the game add more achievement points? Yes. How exactly is a player blocked from achievement rewards?

You've also said that as long as new cheeves are introduced, all players will eventually be able to unlock all unique rewards

See above. Yes, all players will unlock all rewards, which is why it's confusing that this is till a point of contention.

so long as the introduction of unique rewards stops before the amount of ap available catches up enough to cover the gap created by the lost ap.

The introduction of unique rewards tops at 60k although that's a data mined limit and not a set one. It all depends on how long Arenanet wants this game to run for. They don't know how long it run for (nobody does) which is why trying to deal with the unique rewards without an end in sight is pointless.

Well, first off the supply isn't infinite, but I get your point.

It is an infinite supply until the game dies. At that point it will become finite, at the moment there is no end in sight.

And what's really amazing is it doesn't even matter that you have no reason to believe ap will continue while unique rewards will not. It's like you're saying that since there is a theoretical future which could solve an existing problem, the problem does not in fact exist. This does not follow . . .

The problem doesn't exist because all achievement rewards are still available to all players. I don't believe that unique rewards will stop, as I don't believe the achievement rewards have an actual cap, but there is a currently set cap at 60k, which is almost 6 years from now to reach. I'm quite positive not even the president of Arenanet knows what kind of unique rewards they will add in 6 years, or how many achievements they will introduce to the game by that point. The question is if the problem exists now, and it doesn't because the flow of achievements hasn't stopped.

Nor do I have any evidence that the unique rewards will one day stop being introduced.

You mean they will add unique rewards that they know nobody will reach? Or that they will specifically add some rewards designed to be out of reach by the exact amount of AP missing from season 1? That would be really pathetic low blow from the developers, so I'm confident they won't do that.

I'm curious as to why you have this faith in the continued introduction of ap, but not in the continued introduction of rewards . . ?

See point above. I'm curious why you believe they will add a reward that is impossible to acquire unless you've played Season 1

And so you're assuming that ap will continue to be introduced, but not rewards. Again I must ask why . . .

See point above.

Okay, so what I'm saying is that the ap only helps if the rewards are eventually removed. If both ap and rewards continue to be introduced, we're in the same place we are now, just further along the line . . .

And I'll redirect you to the point above.

While I think the problem is that you fail to accept that they don't. The difference is that the fact that they don't is provable . . .

This is back to the top at first point.

No, I'm talking about a problem that does exist today but could disappear in the very far future . . .

The problem doesn't exist today, there is nothing to solve.

Bc it exists now, and the fact that a very specific set of parameters could make it go away at some point in the future doesn't really help in the present moment . . .

It doesn't exist now, it will only exist if a very particular set of parameters is introduced in the game. Namely the addition of a unique reward that can only be obtained by players who played Season 1 and the game is dead and doesn't provide any more AP. Until then it's a fictional problem.

And if 6k ap is lost to them right now, how much of that ap would not still be lost to them at that point . . ?

That's irrelevant, as long as the game lives, more AP will appear (see first point above)

Only if the rewards stop. I said that if they are 6k behind rn, then in another 6k of cheeves they would be caught up to the rewards they would have unlocked rn, but another 6k of cheeves would have also been unlocked by that point. I believe you said something about the rewards we currently know about stopping at 60k. Is the current max available plus 6k more or less than 60k . . ?

The rewards as we know them stop at 45k to be exact as there is no unique reward there. 60k is the data mined maximum for the titles. The actual cap is anyone's guess as we haven't reached that point in time yet.

Nope, still don't care, haven't cared at any point. I don't even know the numbers, I'm just using yours bc if I didn't it would be one more thing for you to argue about . . .

Since you don't care about rewards, because they are all available to you, the reasonable explanation for talking about missing AP is the number. That's the logical conclusion, but if you still dispute point 1 above (top of the post) I guess in your world it's something different.

Actually I'm correcting your misunderstandings while you insist on clinging to them . . .

That's what I'm doing.

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@"Gop.8713" said:I thought I was pretty careful in tracing that conversation, but if you feel you can find something I missed I can try to find why you became confused there for you instead

As explained numerous times achievement rewards are available to everyone. You care about missing AP. It's 1+1

No, I'm fixated on how that amount blocks their access to unique rewards, and will continue to do so until the amount of ap available exceeds the available unique rewards by enough to eclipse the gap . . .

It doesn't block access, last I checked the game is still alive and kicking.

Both untrue. "All possible rewards" don't even exist yet, and very few players even bother to acquire the ones they do have access to . . .

All possible rewards are available to all players, even those that do not exist. Even if few players bother with them, that doesn't mean they are excluded, they can get them if they try. The key word is available.

Or if I cared about, say, for example -- and this is just total blue sky thinking here so bear with me -- the rewards that I currently have access to, rather than the rewards I might have access to in the future . . .

Which is irrelevant given how the game is still alive. If you are talking about a "I want it now" mentality then that's not healthy to be honest.

Oh I'm sure they exist. Probably just don't frequent the forums. There was that one guy earlier in the thread who had a bunch I think . . .

Having loads of AP and obsessing over missing some are two different things.

Just completely ignoring that your data is totally bogus for a moment

The data is from the official leaderboards, it shows just how much this community cares about achievement points. You assume that if the S1 achievements were even available, those players would have them (they wouldn't), meaning your entire argument about the missing AP is pointless.

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@Gop.8713 said:They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .So? No player in the game can get all of those unique rewards. No player ever could. There always have been rewards beyond players' reach - because that's the very idea of this reward track.Remember, last reward we know of is at 60k AP, which is way beyond what is currently available. With the emphasis on currently.As long as you will work hard, and Anet will keep releasing new AP, you will eventually be able to reach any specific reward that you don't have at the moment. Yes, some will reach those rewards later, but that's because they either didn't work as hard, or started later.

You however want to deprive the hardest and most veteran players of rewards, simply because you think you should be able to get to them faster than they did, but you can't. Seriously, anyone starting now is 7 years behind, and wanting that to suddenly go away, or, lacking that, to deprive the older players of the advantages of their longer play simply so you could be at the same level is not going to happen.You might as well ask Anet to remove from players all the rewards from past dailies/daily logins,, or the precursor drops from the initial Southsun event, just because someone starting now will never be able to get those back.

Inequity is more compelling to meThat inequity is a result of players not playing for the same amount of time. The only way to remove that kind of inequity is to do a total player wipe every time the game gets a new player. Although, considering that not everyone's playing time and schedule is the same, even that would not be enough. Perhaps the better idea would be to either prevent everyone from playing, or have all the rewards (of any kind) just accumulate automatically regardless if you're playing or not (and given retroactively to every new player as well).Although that does seem to me to be neither fun nor healthy.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:That is incorrect. They are affected IF they care about it and/or are at their AP cap. Otherwise they are not affected from a stand point of necessity of change or "fixing" or even caring. I used the word in context of how important this is to change and addressing this issue. Obviously everyone who is missing these AP is affected, but it would be kitten to assume or approach this issue from that perspective.In other words what I said was exactly correct, you just don't consider affected players important until they are aware of how they are affected and care enough about it to meet some threshold. I disagree. Fixing problems ppl don't know they have is one of the most satisfying sorts of aid . . .

Exactly, and in a world where resources are finite and decision must be made how to spend those, I'll stick with my decision to focus on issues which affect players in a noticeable way. This is not such an issue.Which is why I keep pointing to the low dev costs every time you bring this up . . .Once the game is in maintenance mode AND players start caring about not being able to reach the maximum AP and rewards due to lack of new AP sources, then is the time for you to shine. Until then, take a more realistic and reasonable approach to this issue. Or not, your choice.Well once we're in maintenance mode, that would mean unique rewards will have been removed from the track. Presumably all of those festival cheeves that take 20+ years to repeat before you max out would cover the gap at that point. But my question remains, why wait . . ?

@Gop.8713 said:You said that all unique rewards are available to all players, which isn't true.

As explained numerous times it is true. I'm not sure how this discussion reached this point and you still contest something like this. Is the game dead? No. Does the game add more achievement points? Yes. How exactly is a player blocked from achievement rewards?Bc the present and the future are different things . . .

You've also said that as long as new cheeves are introduced, all players will eventually be able to unlock all unique rewards

See above. Yes, all players will unlock all rewards, which is why it's confusing that this is till a point of contention.See above. Yes, the future and the present are different . . .

so long as the introduction of unique rewards stops before the amount of ap available catches up enough to cover the gap created by the lost ap.

The introduction of unique rewards tops at 60k although that's a data mined limit and not a set one. It all depends on how long Arenanet wants this game to run for. They don't know how long it run for (nobody does) which is why trying to deal with the unique rewards without an end in sight is pointless.So shall we get back to the present, immediate problem then? Or will you continue to rely on some indefinite future to solve the problem . . ?

Well, first off the supply isn't infinite, but I get your point.

It is an infinite supply until the game dies. At that point it will become finite, at the moment there is no end in sight.Infinity doesn't have an 'until'. That's not the way infinity works . . .

And what's really amazing is it doesn't even matter that you have no reason to believe ap will continue while unique rewards will not. It's like you're saying that since there is a theoretical future which could solve an existing problem, the problem does not in fact exist. This does not follow . . .

The problem doesn't exist because all achievement rewards are still available to all players.Up to a limited, finite amount, which has been reduced by the lost content . . .I don't believe that unique rewards will stop, as I don't believe the achievement rewards have an actual cap,Then you don't believe the problem will ever be solved. I disagree, I think both unique rewards and ap will stop, and I think the ap at that point will be sufficient to surpass the unique rewards. But I don't see the point in waiting . . .but there is a currently set cap at 60k, which is almost 6 years from now to reach.So your solution is to wait six years and see if the problem fixes itself. I prefer a more active approach . . .So if I'm quite positive not even the president of Arenanet knows what kind of unique rewards they will add in 6 years, or how many achievements they will introduce to the game by that point. The question is if the problem exists now, and it doesn't because the flow of achievements hasn't stopped.It has actually, you're just confident it will start again, as am I. But again, that's no reason not to rectify the existing problem . . .

Nor do I have any evidence that the unique rewards will one day stop being introduced.

You mean they will add unique rewards that they know nobody will reach?I'm pretty sure they already have tbh . . .Or that they will specifically add some rewards designed to be out of reach by the exact amount of AP missing from season 1? That would be really pathetic low blow from the developers, so I'm confident they won't do that.I'm confident we could fix the problem right now. Let's . . .

I'm curious as to why you have this faith in the continued introduction of ap, but not in the continued introduction of rewards . . ?

See point above. I'm curious why you believe they will add a reward that is impossible to acquire unless you've played Season 1Again I'm going to use your numbers here to avoid giving you additional facts to dispute. Your position is that anet has a current model for how much ap will be introduced into the game over the next six years? Look back over the last six years and try to figure out if that is reasonable . . .

And so you're assuming that ap will continue to be introduced, but not rewards. Again I must ask why . . .

See point above.So you're not saying that there will come a point where unique rewards are removed from the track but ap continues, but rather that anet has a planned end date for the game and is anticipating, six years out, how they will balance that ap against the rewards currently announced/datamined, ending the game in such a way that ap will exceed those rewards, but not by enough to extend the track into a stretch with no unique rewards . . ?

Okay, so what I'm saying is that the ap only helps if the rewards are eventually removed. If both ap and rewards continue to be introduced, we're in the same place we are now, just further along the line . . .

And I'll redirect you to the point above.I might have been helpful, then, to just make one reply instead of breaking it into four parts each referencing the first . . ?

While I think the problem is that you fail to accept that they don't. The difference is that the fact that they don't is provable . . .

This is back to the top at first point.Right, your failing to distinguish a present problem, existing in the current moment, with a potential future where they problem would have been solved. Try to focus on the present problem . . .

No, I'm talking about a problem that does exist today but could disappear in the very far future . . .

The problem doesn't exist today, there is nothing to solve.Tell me where to meet up, I want to see that uncontrollabe achiever title . . .

Bc it exists now, and the fact that a very specific set of parameters could make it go away at some point in the future doesn't really help in the present moment . . .

It doesn't exist now, it will only exist if a very particular set of parameters is introduced in the game. Namely the addition of a unique reward that can only be obtained by players who played Season 1 and the game is dead and doesn't provide any more AP.Which is where we are right now. There are rewards available -- at this present moment, the current time, the time in which we are existing -- in the game that cannot be unlocked unless you have access to the lost ap. We both agree that in the future more ap is likely to be release that will change the current unavailable reward into some other unavailable reward, but that does not solve the problem . . .Until then it's a fictional problem.I was pleased to disabuse you of this misperception . . .

And if 6k ap is lost to them right now, how much of that ap would not still be lost to them at that point . . ?

That's irrelevant, as long as the game lives, more AP will appear (see first point above)Again, we are in agreement that if the unique rewards are removed at some point in the future, the problem will be resolved. Try to focus on the problem that currently exists right now please. The one described in the comment you refused to address here . . .

Only if the rewards stop. I said that if they are 6k behind rn, then in another 6k of cheeves they would be caught up to the rewards they would have unlocked rn, but another 6k of cheeves would have also been unlocked by that point. I believe you said something about the rewards we currently know about stopping at 60k. Is the current max available plus 6k more or less than 60k . . ?

The rewards as we know them stop at 45k to be exact as there is no unique reward there. 60k is the data mined maximum for the titles. The actual cap is anyone's guess as we haven't reached that point in time yet.So you agree that the future is uncertain. Let's address the immediate, current problem then . . ?

Nope, still don't care, haven't cared at any point. I don't even know the numbers, I'm just using yours bc if I didn't it would be one more thing for you to argue about . . .

Since you don't care about rewards, because they are all available to you, the reasonable explanation for talking about missing AP is the number.So now you're saying I have the uncontrollable achiever title? I don't think that's correct, but I'll check . . .That's the logical conclusion, but if you still dispute point 1 above (top of the post) I guess in your world it's something different.Yes, very. Let's try a simple yes or no. Are the present and the future the same thing . . ?

Actually I'm correcting your misunderstandings while you insist on clinging to them . . .

That's what I'm doing.And I appreciate it. Please provide the information requested above about how the present and the future are the same thing and I currently have access to all rewards despite there not existing any way to unlock them at the current moment . . .@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gop.8713 said:I thought I was pretty careful in tracing that conversation, but if you feel you can find something I missed I can try to find why you became confused there for you instead

As explained numerous times achievement rewards are available to everyone. You care about missing AP. It's 1+1You're now arguing that you do not need ap to unlock rewards? You seem to have tied yourself into a fairly intricate knot here . . .

No, I'm fixated on how that amount blocks their access to unique rewards, and will continue to do so until the amount of ap available exceeds the available unique rewards by enough to eclipse the gap . . .

It doesn't block access, last I checked the game is still alive and kicking.Alive, kicking, and missing ap due to lost content, barring access to rewards at this current time . . .

Both untrue. "All possible rewards" don't even exist yet, and very few players even bother to acquire the ones they do have access to . . .

All possible rewards are available to all players, even those that do not exist. Even if few players bother with them, that doesn't mean they are excluded, they can get them if they try. The key word is available.Okay, now I'm way more interested in meeting up to see all the rewards that don't exist. Forget about that uncontrollable achiever thing . . .

Or if I cared about, say, for example -- and this is just total blue sky thinking here so bear with me -- the rewards that I currently have access to, rather than the rewards I might have access to in the future . . .

Which is irrelevant given how the game is still alive. If you are talking about a "I want it now" mentality then that's not healthy to be honest.If you were unable to log into the game right now, but you could be assured that you would be able to at some point six years hence, would you identify that as a problem or not so much . . ?

Oh I'm sure they exist. Probably just don't frequent the forums. There was that one guy earlier in the thread who had a bunch I think . . .

Having loads of AP and obsessing over missing some are two different things.And happily we're discussing neither. Shall we get back to addressing how we can repair the consequences of the lost content in the present . . ?

Just completely ignoring that your data is totally bogus for a moment

The data is from the official leaderboards, it shows just how much this community cares about achievement points.You said 'players'. The leaderboards only track main accounts?You assume that if the S1 achievements were even available, those players would have them (they wouldn't), meaning your entire argument about the missing AP is pointless.I think what it may mean is that you know you're wrong but you've dug yourself a hole so deep you declined to address the facts presented. Come into the light. It's nice over here, green grass and good times . . .@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gop.8713 said:They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .So?
No
player in the game can get all of those unique rewards. No player ever could. There always have been rewards beyond players' reach - because that's the very idea of this reward track.Remember, last reward we know of is at 60k AP, which is way beyond what is currently available. With the emphasis on
currently
.Oh dear god please explain this to the other dude . . .As long as you will work hard, and Anet will keep releasing new AP, you will eventually be able to reach any specific reward that you don't have
at the moment
. Yes, some will reach those rewards later, but that's because they either didn't work as hard, or
started
later.Or bc there is content lost to the game. That's the part we're trying to fix. Don't lose sight of it . . .You however want to deprive the hardest and most veteran players of rewards,No, I said we could put them in birthday gifts, as an example. There are probably better ideas out there. See if you can come up with some . . .simply because
you think you should be able to get to them faster than they did, but you can't
.Except it doesn't really have anything to do with me? As I mentioned earlier, if I had a personal investment in this I wouldn't trust myself to be impartial . . .Seriously, anyone starting now
is
7 years behind,Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .and wanting that to suddenly go away, or, lacking that, to deprive the older players of the advantages of their longer play simply so you could be at the same level is not going to happen.I think this may be the key to all the resistance. I think there may be players who feel like having been around for longer or played more or done different things means that the game somehow belongs more to them than to other 'lesser' players. And as one of the players who would fall more in the first category, I could see someone developing that perspective. But in order to keep the game alive and vibrant, players in the second category are far more important . . .You might as well ask Anet to remove from players all the rewards from past dailies/daily logins,, or the precursor drops from the initial Southsun event, just because someone starting now will never be able to get those back.They actually can get daily ap back, have been able to ever since it got capped (sadly). Nothing else you mention has created a gap in ongoing content . . .Inequity is more compelling to meThat inequity is a result of players not playing for the same amount of time.No, there are players who have played since beta that are affected by this. It is a result of content being lost . . .The only way to remove that kind of inequity is to do a total player wipe every time the game gets a new player. Although, considering that not everyone's playing time and schedule is the same, even that would not be enough. Perhaps the better idea would be to either prevent everyone from playing, or have
all
the rewards (of any kind) just accumulate automatically regardless if you're playing or not (and given retroactively to every new player as well).Although that does seem to me to be neither fun nor healthy.So don't do that? Instead, focus on how we might best correct the consequences of the lost content. I asked you to present some ideas, and you have not done so. So, unfortunately, my idea remains the best available . . .
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How did this become an argument about removing achievement rewards?

Achievement Points are cool, they allow you to get a point of recognition for doing something beyond what the regular goal is. EG. Killing a boss without getting hit by certain abilities, etc.You are rewarded for doing more than the bare minimum.Which is why I cannot agree that it should somehow be linked to loyalty. That's what character birthday's are for.

Achievements are about rewarding you for going out of your way to do something extra.Which is why I cannot understand why doing dailies can reward you so many points per day. I get that it has a cap, but first off that cap is still fairly high and at the end of the day you are still getting 10AP for bare minimum really because you log in, you see some activities and there is a good chance that you were going to do most of those things anyway, maybe just on different maps or whatever.It doesn't take much extra out of you to do your dailies.

Achievement Points are that which you generally have to go out of your way to do and it just seems as if you are not rewarded enough for the time you might put into them, especially based on individuals skill levels.

And so what if the LWS1 AP is only a small amount missing, it is still missing when it never should have been and it is part of a bigger picture that LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience. That isn't fair.

Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.

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@Gop.8713 said:If you were unable to log into the game right now, but you could be assured that you would be able to at some point six years hence, would you identify that as a problem or not so much . . ?No. I would accept as a matter of course that i would not be able to catch up in all things to all the players that did play the game for all of those 6 years.I definitely would not expect the game to ensure those players didn't gain anything until i get back, nor would i expect the game to send me a copy of everything they have gained in the time i was gone, so i wouldn't feel like i am missing something.

@Gop.8713 said:They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .So?
No
player in the game can get all of those unique rewards. No player ever could. There always have been rewards beyond players' reach - because that's the very idea of this reward track.Remember, last reward we know of is at 60k AP, which is way beyond what is currently available. With the emphasis on
currently
.Oh dear god please explain this to the other dude . . .Oh, i think he does understand it. It's
you
that seem to be missing that the whole point of this reward track is that there are always supposed to be rewards in front of you. No matter how much APs you have, and whether you are at the current cap or not.As long as the game is still alive and new APs are still introduced, there should
never
be a moment when you could even theoretically get
all
AP reward track rewards. That would remove most of the reason behind the very existence of this reward track.

As long as you will work hard, and Anet will keep releasing new AP, you will eventually be able to reach any specific reward that you don't have
at the moment
. Yes, some will reach those rewards later, but that's because they either didn't work as hard, or
started
later.Or bc there is content lost to the game. That's the part we're trying to fix. Don't lose sight of it . . .Nope. If they were playing then and took effort to do those achievements, those wouldn't be lost to them. If they are lost to them, then they either started later, or didn't put an effort then.If you start several years later, you
should
expect to be several years behind. If you put less effort than others, you
should
expect to be behind.

You however want to deprive the hardest and most veteran players of rewards,No, I said we could put them in birthday gifts, as an example. There are probably better ideas out there. See if you can come up with some . . .Okay, answer then: how would the fact that someone starting now would need to wait 7 years to get a reward some people got last summer be different than him needing to wait a year or two of LS chapters to be able to get to the point veteran players are at with AP?Or, differently: someone worked hard for the last 7 years to get to certain AP level today. According to your idea, they should get rewarded exactly the same as someone that created a character at day one, went missing for 7 years, and came back yesterday. Just because you think that the second person should not need to work for the next 7 years, but should get rewarded immediately. How exactly do you consider it fair?

simply because
you think you should be able to get to them faster than they did, but you can't
.Except it doesn't really have anything to do with me? As I mentioned earlier, if I had a personal investment in this I wouldn't trust myself to be impartial . . .Okay, so you personally have no problem with it. You are just acting in defence of some anegdotal players you don't really even know exist or care about all of this.Or, perhaps, you are not so impartial as you think.(by the way, how much of those APs are you personally missing? Since you are impartial, i assume you have all of them, right?)

Seriously, anyone starting now
is
7 years behind,Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .No, we haven't actually established that. Remember, that lack of those APs affect only those that do care about them - and, specifically, those that are willing and capable of putting a lot of effort into obtaining those, to the level where they cannot supplement this lack with APs from other sources anymore. Those players in general are a minority in this game. A
tiny
minority.I mean, we're talking about less than 6k AP. Getting 6k Ap is trivial if you put just a little bit of effort - and yet a huge majority of players don't even have that much. Players that aren't willing to put an effort into getting even 6k AP out of those currently available should not concern themselves with those missing APs. After all, if those APs weren't missing, they wouldn't have obtained them anyway, because it would require way, way more effort than they've put into all the APs they've got so far.

Inequity is more compelling to meThat inequity is a result of players not playing for the same amount of time.No, there are players who have played since beta that are affected by this. It is a result of content being lost . . .No, if they have actually
played
since beta, as much as people that did get those achieves, they wouldn't be missing them. If they are missing them, they either weren't actually playing then, or they were playing, but
weren't interested
.

The only way to remove that kind of inequity is to do a total player wipe every time the game gets a new player. Although, considering that not everyone's playing time and schedule is the same, even that would not be enough. Perhaps the better idea would be to either prevent everyone from playing, or have
all
the rewards (of any kind) just accumulate automatically regardless if you're playing or not (and given retroactively to every new player as well).Although that does seem to me to be neither fun nor healthy.So don't do that? Instead, focus on how we might best correct the consequences of the lost content. I asked you to present some ideas, and you have not done so. So, unfortunately, my idea remains the best available . . .It is "the best available" only because any actually working and satisfying solution would require a lot of effort on Anet's part. Your idea may be simple and easy to implement, but it simply isn't
good
. Just like my idea of a total player wipe.

Mind you, if you were really interested in fixing the problem of lost content, the only satisfying solution would be reintroducing LS1. Instead you're talking about removing rewards from AP track, which has absolutely nothing to do with that, and still leaves that lost content lost.Which suggests, that LS1 is not what you are truly concerned about. The thing that irks you, and the "problem" you are so eager to correct seemt so only be the situation where players that have played more and/or longer will be able to reach certain rewards faster than those that played shorter/less.It's not the lost LS1 that you care about. It's only the rewards.

Personally, i'd really love for Anet to rework LS1 and bring it back in some form. I'm just realistic enough to realize that it definitely wouldn't be an easy (or cheap) project. I am also missing quite a number of those APs from that time - but i never even though that, because i didn't feel like putting enough effort then, i should now feel entitled to ask Anet to either "give them back" to me, or to halt the progress of those that did put more effort than me then until i'll catch up. Nor do i understand why you think it would be okay, or why are you trying to represent me (and people like me) when i don't remember ever asking that of you.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gop.8713 said:If you were unable to log into the game right now, but you could be assured that you would be able to at some point six years hence, would you identify that as a problem or not so much . . ?No. I would accept as a matter of course that i would not be able to catch up in all things to all the players that did play the game for all of those 6 years.I definitely would not expect the game to ensure those players didn't gain anything until i get back, nor would i expect the game to send me a copy of everything they have gained in the time i was gone, so i wouldn't feel like i am missing something.This is a disingenuous reply that demonstrates your insincerity in addressing the issue. No one who plays the game would be indifferent to being locked out of the game for six years. I am disappointed that you chose to reply, but not address the issue . . .

@Gop.8713 said:They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .So?
No
player in the game can get all of those unique rewards. No player ever could. There always have been rewards beyond players' reach - because that's the very idea of this reward track.Remember, last reward we know of is at 60k AP, which is way beyond what is currently available. With the emphasis on
currently
.Oh dear god please explain this to the other dude . . .Oh, i think he does understand it.I think he does too. But like you above, he refuses to admit it bc in doing so he would be forced to acknowledge the problem that exists in the game today due to this lost content we are discussing . . .It's
you
that seem to be missing that the whole point of this reward track is that there are always supposed to be rewards in front of you. No matter how much APs you have, and whether you are at the current cap or not.This is actually intrinsic to the problem we are trying to solve. Your belief that there will always be rewards in front of you means that the gap created by the missing ap due to the lost content will never be closed. Those affected now will ever be effected, making a solution more valuable, not less . . .As long as the game is still alive and new APs are still introduced, there should
never
be a moment when you could even theoretically get
all
AP reward track rewards. That would remove most of the reason behind the very existence of this reward track.But in every moment, there will always be awards you would have access to if this content had not been lost due to a technical limitation. What is your aversion to addressing that problem? Or perhaps more to the point, what is your aversion to anyone else addressing it either . . ?As long as you will work hard, and Anet will keep releasing new AP, you will eventually be able to reach any specific reward that you don't have
at the moment
. Yes, some will reach those rewards later, but that's because they either didn't work as hard, or
started
later.Or bc there is content lost to the game. That's the part we're trying to fix. Don't lose sight of it . . .Nope. If they were playing then and took effort to do those achievements, those wouldn't be lost to them. If they are lost to them, then they either started later, or didn't put an effort then.If you start several years later, you
should
expect to be several years behind. If you put less effort than others, you
should
expect to be behind.It is your position then that players who started after LS2 do not have access to it? I can prove otherwise, but I'm afraid it wouldn't do any good :/You however want to deprive the hardest and most veteran players of rewards,No, I said we could put them in birthday gifts, as an example. There are probably better ideas out there. See if you can come up with some . . .Okay, answer then: how would the fact that someone starting now would need to wait 7 years to get a reward some people got last summer be different than him needing to wait a year or two of LS chapters to be able to get to the point veteran players are at with AP?Or, differently: someone worked hard for the last 7 years to get to certain AP level today. According to your idea, they should get rewarded exactly the same as someone that created a character at day one, went missing for 7 years, and came back yesterday. Just because you think that the second person should not need to work for the next 7 years, but should get rewarded immediately. How exactly do you consider it fair?The fact that the lost content was lost unintentionally is the key. Anet would prefer for that content to still be available, as they have mentioned numerous times, most recently in the message from the content design lead of Feb 3, specifically noting that they would like to avoid that same mistake in the future . . .Something undesirable happened in the past and it has consequences in the present. Why would you not want to address them . . ?simply because
you think you should be able to get to them faster than they did, but you can't
.Except it doesn't really have anything to do with me? As I mentioned earlier, if I had a personal investment in this I wouldn't trust myself to be impartial . . .Okay, so you personally have no problem with it. You are just acting in defence of some anegdotal players you don't really even know exist or care about all of this.Or, perhaps, you are not so impartial as you think.(by the way, how much of those APs are you personally missing? Since you are impartial, i assume you have all of them, right?)Nope, I'm missing all of them. But I'm also missing a great deal of easily attainable ap. Bc ap isn't very impt to me. Which is what makes me impartial . . .Now, perhaps you can explain how the ap of a particular player affects how ap is missing from the game due to lost content, that loss being unintended and regrettable to the point that developers of the game are still focused on the error six years later. Oh, that's right, it doesn't. Probably why you wanted to talk about me instead of the problem I guess, huh . . ?Seriously, anyone starting now
is
7 years behind,Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .No, we haven't actually established that. Remember, that lack of those APs affect only those that do care about themUntrue . . .
  • and, specifically, those that are willing and capable of putting a lot of effort into obtaining those, to the level where they cannot supplement this lack with APs from other sources anymore. Those players in general are a minority in this game. A
    tiny
    minority.You do not need to have exhausted all sources of ap to feel the absence of the missing ap. It affects you all along the way, at every moment . . .I mean, we're talking about less than 6k AP. Getting 6k Ap is trivial if you put just a little bit of effort - and yet a huge majority of players don't even have that much. Players that aren't willing to put an effort into getting even 6k AP out of those currently available should not concern themselves with those missing APs. After all, if those APs weren't missing, they wouldn't have obtained them anyway, because it would require way, way more effort than they've put into all the APs they've got so far.They would be available to them though. They would have had to go out of their way not to gather at least some of them . . .Inequity is more compelling to meThat inequity is a result of players not playing for the same amount of time.No, there are players who have played since beta that are affected by this. It is a result of content being lost . . .No, if they have actually
    played
    since beta, as much as people that did get those achieves, they wouldn't be missing them. If they are missing them, they either weren't actually playing then, or they were playing, but
    weren't interested
    .And then the content was lost. I'm missing a lot of ap, as I've mentioned. This is bc, as I've also mentioned, I use ap primarily as a guide to new content. When I do not need new content, I pretty much ignore ap. If all the content in the game I haven't done yet disappeared, I would be affected by that. The fact that I hadn't gotten around to it yet doesn't change that reality. I regret that it doesn't fit your narrative :/The only way to remove that kind of inequity is to do a total player wipe every time the game gets a new player. Although, considering that not everyone's playing time and schedule is the same, even that would not be enough. Perhaps the better idea would be to either prevent everyone from playing, or have
    all
    the rewards (of any kind) just accumulate automatically regardless if you're playing or not (and given retroactively to every new player as well).Although that does seem to me to be neither fun nor healthy.So don't do that? Instead, focus on how we might best correct the consequences of the lost content. I asked you to present some ideas, and you have not done so. So, unfortunately, my idea remains the best available . . .It is "the best available" only because any actually working and satisfying solution would require a lot of effort on Anet's part. Your idea may be simple and easy to implement, but it simply isn't
    good
    . Just like my idea of a total player wipe.So how could it be improved? It's low cost, addresses an issue affecting a large majority of accounts, at a cost to a small number of players, which can be mitigated. What other steps could we take to improve the situation . . ?Mind you, if you were really interested in fixing the problem of lost content, the only satisfying solution would be reintroducing LS1. Instead you're talking about removing rewards from AP track, which has absolutely nothing to do with that, and still leaves that lost content
    lost
    .Which suggests, that LS1 is not what you are truly concerned about. The thing that irks you, and the "problem" you are so eager to correct seemt so only be the situation where players that have played more and/or longer will be able to reach certain rewards faster than those that played shorter/less.It's not the lost LS1 that you care about. It's only the
    rewards
    .I would love them to reintroduce LS1. But my understanding is that it is either impossible or difficult/expensive to the point that it is practically impossible. I think what confuses you is that accepting that LS1 is lost doesn't cause me to just throw up my hands, turn away and pretend there weren't problems created by that loss. As mentioned, several times, I like this idea bc it solves some of the problems created by the loss at a low cost. It is a good . . .If I, or anyone else, can come up with some ideas about how to brind LS1 back without any substantial cost, that would be great too . . .Personally, i'd really love for Anet to rework LS1 and bring it back in some form. I'm just realistic enough to realize that it definitely wouldn't be an easy (or cheap) project. I am also missing quite a number of those APs from that time - but i never even though that, because i didn't feel like putting enough effort then, i should now feel entitled to ask Anet to either "give them back" to me, or to halt the progress of those that
    did
    put more effort than me then until i'll catch up. Nor do i understand why you think it would be okay, or why are you trying to represent me (and people like me) when i don't remember ever asking that of you.I would imagine the same reason you feel entitled to make judgments about everyone else in the game. It's the only way to make decisions. You have to look at a situation and try to figure out what the best solution is overall. You can't just look at your own situation and say "this is best for me, therefore it's the best thing . . "
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@hellsqueen.3045 said:How did this become an argument about removing achievement rewards?

Someone obsessed with rewards started derailing the thread with multi-quote posts, that's how.

Which is why I cannot understand why doing dailies can reward you so many points per day.

They streamlined the system, that's why. In the old system you could get 1 AP for each daily completed, with a maximum of 12 (or was it 14), PVP and WVW dailies were counted separately. In order to get 10 AP you had to do 10 achievements, comparable to the 3 you must do today. And to get all points you had to go to PVP and WVW as well. Dailies are now too rewarding but they couldn't reduce their AP rewards, those doing dailies would be upset their daily intake of AP was severed (there was already an outrage because the max was 10, less than before) and the new dailies take only 3 steps to complete in order to make dailies faster, and more rewarding for players that have little play time. Understand that it's an updated system and not a new one.

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@"Gop.8713" said:Bc the present and the future are different things . . .

Not really important when discussing a system that provides future rewards.

So shall we get back to the present, immediate problem then? Or will you continue to rely on some indefinite future to solve the problem . . ?

There is no problem in the present. I will continue to rely on the future so as the problem doesn't even appear. I already outlined the set conditions that will make this problem of yours appear in the future.

Infinity doesn't have an 'until'. That's not the way infinity works . . .

If it was finite we'd have a cap, since there is no cap it's infinite. Unless you know the limit then do tell.

Then you don't believe the problem will ever be solved.

There is no problem to solve.

So your solution is to wait six years and see if the problem fixes itself. I prefer a more active approach . . .

I prefer to wait six years to see IF the problem even appears first. I prefer fixing problems when they exist, not take steps to "fix" them before they even appear.

But again, that's no reason not to rectify the existing problem . . .

Because there is no existing problem.

I'm pretty sure they already have tbh . . .

Really? Did the game stop adding achievements and I don't know about it? There is no reward you cannot get.

I'm confident we could fix the problem right now. Let's . . .

There is no problem so nothing to fix.

I'm curious as to why you have this faith in the continued introduction of ap, but not in the continued introduction of rewards . . ?

See point above. I'm curious why you believe they will add a reward that is impossible to acquire unless you've played Season 1Again I'm going to use your numbers here to avoid giving you additional facts to dispute. Your position is that anet has a current model for how much ap will be introduced into the game over the next six years? Look back over the last six years and try to figure out if that is reasonable . . .

You didn't provide any facts so far, you are actually the one disputing facts and it's getting tiring.Is there a reward that you can acquire only if you've played Season 1? No, because all the rewards are available to all players.

So you're not saying that there will come a point where unique rewards are removed from the track but ap continues, but rather that anet has a planned end date for the game and is anticipating, six years out, how they will balance that ap against the rewards currently announced/datamined, ending the game in such a way that ap will exceed those rewards, but not by enough to extend the track into a stretch with no unique rewards . . ?

There is no plan. There is no point to have a plan anticipating the end of a game. It's still going strong.

Right, your failing to distinguish a present problem, existing in the current moment, with a potential future where they problem would have been solved. Try to focus on the present problem . . .

There is no problem at present and it doesn't exist at the current moment. It's only an imaginary problem came up only by you alone.

Tell me where to meet up, I want to see that uncontrollabe achiever title . . .

Is the game dead? No. You will see it in due time.

Which is where we are right now. There are rewards available -- at this present moment, the current time, the time in which we are existing -- in the game that cannot be unlocked unless you have access to the lost ap.

Irrelevant. The game isn't dead so there is no present problem.

We both agree that in the future more ap is likely to be release that will change the current unavailable reward into some other unavailable reward, but that does not solve the problem . . .

There is future AP likely to release that will make all rewards available. There is no problem to solve.

I was pleased to disabuse you of this misperception . . .

You did nothing of the sort. You haven't provided any evidence of this problem existing. Which is hilarious considering you've been posting so much and you haven't proven that your problem exist yet!

Again, we are in agreement that if the unique rewards are removed at some point in the future, the problem will be resolved.

No.

Try to focus on the problem that currently exists right now please. The one described in the comment you refused to address here . . .

There is no problem that exists now. You haven't provided any shred of evidence that it does.

So you agree that the future is uncertain. Let's address the immediate, current problem then . . ?

There is no immediate, current, problem.

So now you're saying I have the uncontrollable achiever title? I don't think that's correct, but I'll check . . .

That's irrelevant.

Yes, very. Let's try a simple yes or no. Are the present and the future the same thing . . ?

Irrelevant. Achievement rewards are about the future, not the present. Not all their rewards being available at any given present time is irrelevant.

And I appreciate it. Please provide the information requested above about how the present and the future are the same thing and I currently have access to all rewards despite there not existing any way to unlock them at the current moment . . .

Please provide any information that this problem of yours exists.You do have access to all the rewards at the given time. You need the AP, that will come in time, to get them.

You're now arguing that you do not need ap to unlock rewards? You seem to have tied yourself into a fairly intricate knot here . . .

You don't need specific AP to unlock rewards. Or isn't that obvious?

Alive, kicking, and missing ap due to lost content, barring access to rewards at this current time . . .

Which is irrelevant and not a problem.

Okay, now I'm way more interested in meeting up to see all the rewards that don't exist. Forget about that uncontrollable achiever thing . . .

You will see them once more achievements are added to the game.

If you were unable to log into the game right now, but you could be assured that you would be able to at some point six years hence, would you identify that as a problem or not so much . . ?

We'll see in six years.

And happily we're discussing neither. Shall we get back to addressing how we can repair the consequences of the lost content in the present . . ?

There are no consequences of the lost content regarding achievement rewards, other consequences yes. You are the one that derailed the thread towards something that doesn't exist. And the OP of the thread politely asked to return to the topic at hand. But I doubt you will be able to do that.

You said 'players'. The leaderboards only track main accounts?

And? A player having multiple accounts that have low AP totals is irrelevant. The amount of accounts with high enough AP totals is what counts. And it's fairly low.

You assume that if the S1 achievements were even available, those players would have them (they wouldn't), meaning your entire argument about the missing AP is pointless.I think what it may mean is that you know you're wrong but you've dug yourself a hole so deep you declined to address the facts presented. Come into the light. It's nice over here, green grass and good times . . .

I'm not sure how this answers the question. Since the vast majority of players has less points even than the Season 1 achievements (disregarding festivals) talking about those points is rather meaningless.

I'm waiting for a good explanation of this problem of yours, the facts show that there is no problem yet you continue talking about it. What is it exactly?

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