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@"hellsqueen.3045" said:LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience. That isn't fair.

Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

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@"Gop.8713" said:This is a disingenuous reply that demonstrates your insincerity in addressing the issue. No one who plays the game would be indifferent to being locked out of the game for six years. I am disappointed that you chose to reply, but not address the issue . . ....what? I mean, if you didn't play the game for 6 years, then it's a problem on your side, not on game's side. Perhaps you were truly unable, but perhaps you simply weren;t interested. The game really shouldn't care either way - it should primarily concern itself with the people that do play.

It's
you
that seem to be missing that the whole point of this reward track is that there are always supposed to be rewards in front of you. No matter how much APs you have, and whether you are at the current cap or not.This is actually intrinsic to the problem we are trying to solve. Your belief that there will always be rewards in front of you means that the gap created by the missing ap due to the lost content will never be closed. Those affected now will ever be effected, making a solution more valuable, not less . . .Yes, those that started to run later, or run slower will not be able to catch up to those in the lead, unless those people stop on their own. I don't see a problem with that, as it is really
not
a race, and everyone will get to each checkpoint on the way at their own pace anyway. I certainly do not see a reason why the people in the lead have to be stopped in order for those that started late to catch up.

As long as the game is still alive and new APs are still introduced, there should
never
be a moment when you could even theoretically get
all
AP reward track rewards. That would remove most of the reason behind the very existence of this reward track.But in every moment, there will always be awards you would have access to if this content had not been lost due to a technical limitation.No, there would be a reward i would have access to
if only i started playing earlier, or put more effort in it in the past
. That's not the same. And it's not like i won't have access to that reward - i will get to it eventually, if i'll keep putting effort into it.Notice, by the way, that's true to people missing ANY AP, not only those frol LS1.At this moment there's definitely an award that you would have access to if only you raided more, or played SPvP/WvW more, or......but you
didn't
.

What is your aversion to addressing that problem?The fact that i'm still not persuaded that the problem exists, but very certain that your proposed "solution" actually accomplishes nothing positive whatsoever (and causes some problems of its own).

Or perhaps more to the point, what is your aversion to anyone else addressing it either . . ?I am not. It's just that you're not addressing the problem, but simply creating a new one.

It is your position then that players who started after LS2 do not have access to it? I can prove otherwise, but I'm afraid it wouldn't do any good :/No, but then your problem is
not
about people not having access to LS1. That is a very valid problem, and well worth discussion about, but you keep concentrating on something else completely.

You however want to deprive the hardest and most veteran players of rewards,No, I said we could put them in birthday gifts, as an example. There are probably better ideas out there. See if you can come up with some . . .Okay, answer then: how would the fact that someone starting now would need to wait 7 years to get a reward some people got last summer be different than him needing to wait a year or two of LS chapters to be able to get to the point veteran players are at with AP?Or, differently: someone worked hard for the last 7 years to get to certain AP level today. According to your idea, they should get rewarded exactly the same as someone that created a character at day one, went missing for 7 years, and came back yesterday. Just because you think that the second person should not need to work for the next 7 years, but should get rewarded immediately. How exactly do you consider it fair?The fact that the lost content was lost unintentionally is the key.It wasn't lost
unintentionally
. It was specifically designed that way. It
was
a mistake, but at that time it was very much intentional.

Anet would prefer for that content to still be available, as they have mentioned numerous times, most recently in the message from the content design lead of Feb 3, specifically noting that they would like to avoid that same mistake in the future . . .Again, you are not addressing the problem of missing LS1 at all. You are addressing the "problem" of some of the most hardworking veteran players having access to rewards you don't have access to
yet
. The content you speak of would still be unavailable.

Something undesirable happened in the past and it has consequences in the present. Why would you not want to address them . . ?I would.
You
on the other hand seem to be fixated on something else completely.

Now, perhaps you can explain how the ap of a particular player affects how ap is missing from the game due to lost content, that loss being unintended and regrettable to the point that developers of the game are still focused on the error six years later.Again, it wasn't the loss of
AP
that was regrettable, but the loss of the
story
. And, like i already said, it wasn't really unintended either - they very much intended for the story to be transient then. They've just changed their minds later on.

Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .No, we haven't actually established that. Remember, that lack of those APs affect only those that do care about themUntrue . . .If someone doesn't care they don't have more APs accessible, then the loss of those APs doesn't affect them.
  • and, specifically, those that are willing and capable of putting a lot of effort into obtaining those, to the level where they cannot supplement this lack with APs from other sources anymore. Those players in general are a minority in this game. A
    tiny
    minority.You do not need to have exhausted all sources of ap to feel the absence of the missing ap. It affects you all along the way, at every moment . . .Yes, you don't. But if you didn't even try to go for
    easily attainable
    APs, then you are not affected by not having access to one more source you would have ignored anyway.

I mean, we're talking about less than 6k AP. Getting 6k Ap is trivial if you put just a little bit of effort - and yet a huge majority of players don't even have that much. Players that aren't willing to put an effort into getting even 6k AP out of those currently available should not concern themselves with those missing APs. After all, if those APs weren't missing, they wouldn't have obtained them anyway, because it would require way, way more effort than they've put into all the APs they've got so far.They would be available to them though. They would have had to go out of their way not to gather at least some of them . . .But would they care? I mean, if the majority of players cared about APs, the AP distribution among the player population would look completely different from what it is now.If LS1 ap was still available, perhaps the average AP would go up by like 50 points at best.

And then the content was lost.Yes. And your "solution" changes absolutely nothing about it - the content (LS1) would still be lost.

So don't do that? Instead, focus on how we might best correct the consequences of the lost content. I asked you to present some ideas, and you have not done so. So, unfortunately, my idea remains the best available . . .And yet that "best" idea still solves nothing., as LS1 would still be lost.By the way, i did present an idea. Player wipe. It is as easy and cheap as yours, and it accomplishes about as much as yours. And I don't see what makes your "solution" any better.

It is "the best available" only because any actually working and satisfying solution would require a lot of effort on Anet's part. Your idea may be simple and easy to implement, but it simply isn't
good
. Just like my idea of a total player wipe.So how could it be improved?It would have to be completely scrapped for that.It's low costTrue. Unfortunately that's its only good quality.Hint: i don't buy things only because they are cheap. If i did that, i would end up with a ton of trash i would have no need of.

, addresses an issue affecting a large majority of accounts, at a cost to a small number of players, which can be mitigated.On the contrary, it does leave the core issue (missing LS1) completely untouched. It solves nothing, while causing additional problems. You are perfectly willing to dismantle the whole AP rewards system in order to solve an issue that affects maybe a handful of players, while leaving the real problem completely untouched.

I just don't see how you can "improve" on that without changing absolutely everything about this "solution".

Mind you, if you were really interested in fixing the problem of lost content, the only satisfying solution would be reintroducing LS1. Instead you're talking about removing rewards from AP track, which has absolutely nothing to do with that, and still leaves that lost content
lost
.Which suggests, that LS1 is not what you are truly concerned about. The thing that irks you, and the "problem" you are so eager to correct seemt so only be the situation where players that have played more and/or longer will be able to reach certain rewards faster than those that played shorter/less.It's not the lost LS1 that you care about. It's only the
rewards
.I would love them to reintroduce LS1. But my understanding is that it is either impossible or difficult/expensive to the point that it is practically impossible. I think what confuses you is that accepting that LS1 is lost doesn't cause me to just throw up my hands, turn away and pretend there weren't problems created by that loss. As mentioned, several times, I like this idea bc it solves some of the problems created by the loss at a low cost. It is a good . . .Except the "problem" of missing APs is not a problem at all, because in reality it doesn't deprive anyone of anything. At best it might delay some rewards for a small number of players. And this "low cost" you speak of is a complete destruction of a system that so far was working mostly fine, and is generally positively received by the population.

You have to look at a situation and try to figure out what the best solution is overall. You can't just look at your own situation and say "this is best for me, therefore it's the best thing . . "Oh, i did look at the situation, and that's
exactly
why i think that your "solution" is just bad for everyone.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:Bc the present and the future are different things . . .

Not really important when discussing a system that provides future rewards.But of crucial significance when discussing a present problem . . .

So shall we get back to the present, immediate problem then? Or will you continue to rely on some indefinite future to solve the problem . . ?

There is no problem in the present. I will continue to rely on the future so as the problem doesn't even appear. I already outlined the set conditions that will make this problem of yours appear in the future.You described how the future will solve the problem that exists in the present if we wait long enough. I would prefer not to wait . . .

Infinity doesn't have an 'until'. That's not the way infinity works . . .

If it was finite we'd have a cap, since there is no cap it's infinite. Unless you know the limit then do tell.So we've discovered another word you're not using correctly. It makes it difficult to communicate . . .

Then you don't believe the problem will ever be solved.

There is no problem to solve.Pls read thread . . .

So your solution is to wait six years and see if the problem fixes itself. I prefer a more active approach . . .

I prefer to wait six years to see IF the problem even appears first. I prefer fixing problems when they exist, not take steps to "fix" them before they even appear.Get back to me then pls, I will continue to suggest solutions to problems in the interim . . .

But again, that's no reason not to rectify the existing problem . . .

Because there is no existing problem.Pls show me how to select the rewards that would have been unlocked by the ap missing from the lost content at this time. I cannot find them in my UI. An oversight on my part I am certain . . .

I'm pretty sure they already have tbh . . .

Really? Did the game stop adding achievements and I don't know about it? There is no reward you cannot get.Yes. Should resume up next release though, I would think . . .

I'm confident we could fix the problem right now. Let's . . .

There is no problem so nothing to fix.Again, I'm sure it's just an oversight on my part. Pls describe how I can select those rewards. I'm at my UI rn, just tabbed over . . .

I'm curious as to why you have this faith in the continued introduction of ap, but not in the continued introduction of rewards . . ?

See point above. I'm curious why you believe they will add a reward that is impossible to acquire unless you've played Season 1Again I'm going to use your numbers here to avoid giving you additional facts to dispute. Your position is that anet has a current model for how much ap will be introduced into the game over the next six years? Look back over the last six years and try to figure out if that is reasonable . . .

You didn't provide any facts so far, you are actually the one disputing facts and it's getting tiring.Is there a reward that you can acquire only if you've played Season 1? No, because all the rewards are available to all players.Yes, lots. Seven in that example you chose to ignore earlier . . .

So you're not saying that there will come a point where unique rewards are removed from the track but ap continues, but rather that anet has a planned end date for the game and is anticipating, six years out, how they will balance that ap against the rewards currently announced/datamined, ending the game in such a way that ap will exceed those rewards, but not by enough to extend the track into a stretch with no unique rewards . . ?

There is no plan. There is no point to have a plan anticipating the end of a game. It's still going strong.So you acknowledge not only that you have no solution for the existing problem, but that your faith in a future when the problem would resolve itself is unfounded, a mere hope . . .

Right, your failing to distinguish a present problem, existing in the current moment, with a potential future where they problem would have been solved. Try to focus on the present problem . . .

There is no problem at present and it doesn't exist at the current moment. It's only an imaginary problem came up only by you alone.Pls provide the info requested . . .

Tell me where to meet up, I want to see that uncontrollabe achiever title . . .

Is the game dead? No. You will see it in due time.Thank you. I thought I'd lost you. Now that you can distinguish the present from the future, pls address the present concern . . .

Which is where we are right now. There are rewards available -- at this present moment, the current time, the time in which we are existing -- in the game that cannot be unlocked unless you have access to the lost ap.

Irrelevant. The game isn't dead so there is no present problem.Irrelevant to you perhaps, not irrelevant to the topic at hand . . .

We both agree that in the future more ap is likely to be release that will change the current unavailable reward into some other unavailable reward, but that does not solve the problem . . .

There is future AP likely to release that will make all rewards available. There is no problem to solve.And we've lost you again. The future is not the present. Pls address present concerns with present solutions . . .

I was pleased to disabuse you of this misperception . . .

You did nothing of the sort. You haven't provided any evidence of this problem existing. Which is hilarious considering you've been posting so much and you haven't proven that your problem exist yet!Your inability to distinguish the present from the future is at fault there, I'm afraid. It's my sincere hope that your understanding of time improves at some point in the future, as it is your predominant problem in the present . . .

Again, we are in agreement that if the unique rewards are removed at some point in the future, the problem will be resolved.

No.Pls explain how the problem could be resolved without the removal of the unique rewards. Use any specific example you like . . .

Try to focus on the problem that currently exists right now please. The one described in the comment you refused to address here . . .

There is no problem that exists now. You haven't provided any shred of evidence that it does.It requires only the ability to count. Can you demonstrate this ability . . ?

So you agree that the future is uncertain. Let's address the immediate, current problem then . . ?

There is no immediate, current, problem.The rewards that would be unlocked at the immediate, current moment are less than they would be for many players due to content lost to a technical limitation. That is a current problem. Your solution to that current problem is that if we wait for more ap to be introduced, those rewards will be unlocked at that future time. What you willfully ignore is that ofc more unavailable rewards will have been unlocked at that point. Ignoring something is not the same thing as it not existing . . .

So now you're saying I have the uncontrollable achiever title? I don't think that's correct, but I'll check . . .

That's irrelevant.Only if you are uninterested in reality . . .

Yes, very. Let's try a simple yes or no. Are the present and the future the same thing . . ?

Irrelevant. Achievement rewards are about the future, not the present. Not all their rewards being available at any given present time is irrelevant.So I don't have any achievement rewards in the present. Again, I can prove that is not true, but you do not find reality persuasive, so I'm at a loss . . .

And I appreciate it. Please provide the information requested above about how the present and the future are the same thing and I currently have access to all rewards despite there not existing any way to unlock them at the current moment . . .

Please provide any information that this problem of yours exists.Done. Pls read thread and reply in a reality-based manner. Ty . . .You do have access to all the rewards at the given time. You need the AP, that will come in time, to get them.Correct! Now apply this distinction you have learned about the present and the future to the present, rather than the future . . .

You're now arguing that you do not need ap to unlock rewards? You seem to have tied yourself into a fairly intricate knot here . . .

You don't need specific AP to unlock rewards. Or isn't that obvious?Lost ap cannot be covered by subsequently introduced ap, as each ap is only attainable once . . .

Alive, kicking, and missing ap due to lost content, barring access to rewards at this current time . . .

Which is irrelevant and not a problem.Actually it's the exact problem. A problem you cannot address without acknowledging your errors, which you have not yet learned to do, thus the knot . . .

Okay, now I'm way more interested in meeting up to see all the rewards that don't exist. Forget about that uncontrollable achiever thing . . .

You will see them once more achievements are added to the game.Okay, I take it back, you did admit your error. Thank you again. Now address the problem . . .

If you were unable to log into the game right now, but you could be assured that you would be able to at some point six years hence, would you identify that as a problem or not so much . . ?

We'll see in six years.We'll miss you in the interim . . .

And happily we're discussing neither. Shall we get back to addressing how we can repair the consequences of the lost content in the present . . ?

There are no consequences of the lost content regarding achievement rewards, other consequences yes. You are the one that derailed the thread towards something that doesn't exist. And the OP of the thread politely asked to return to the topic at hand. But I doubt you will be able to do that.Every player who does not have the lost ap is further behind on the track than they would be at the current moment. There are many ways to address that. I chose to offer a solution. You choose to pretend that isn't true. As poor as my solution may be, it is still preferable to ignoring the reality of the situation . . .

You said 'players'. The leaderboards only track main accounts?

And? A player having multiple accounts that have low AP totals is irrelevant. The amount of accounts with high enough AP totals is what counts. And it's fairly low.That word you keep using. I do not think it means what you think it means . . .

You assume that if the S1 achievements were even available, those players would have them (they wouldn't), meaning your entire argument about the missing AP is pointless.I think what it may mean is that you know you're wrong but you've dug yourself a hole so deep you declined to address the facts presented. Come into the light. It's nice over here, green grass and good times . . .

I'm not sure how this answers the question. Since the vast majority of players has less points even than the Season 1 achievements (disregarding festivals) talking about those points is rather meaningless.Assuming X and Y are both positive integers, X+Y is always greater than X. It's math . . .I'm waiting for a good explanation of this problem of yours, the facts show that there is no problem yet you continue talking about it. What is it exactly?Content was lost. Consequences ensued. Solutions were posed. You put your head in the sand . . .@Rasimir.6239 said:

@"hellsqueen.3045" said:LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience.
That isn't fair.

Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

That is very well described, thank you. Now, given that we all agree that the experiment failed, and that repairing the failure is cost-prohibitive, why would you not want to mitigate the damage of the failure . . ?

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:This is a disingenuous reply that demonstrates your insincerity in addressing the issue. No one who plays the game would be indifferent to being locked out of the game for six years. I am disappointed that you chose to reply, but not address the issue . . ....what? I mean, if you didn't play the game for 6 years, then it's a problem on your side, not on game's side. Perhaps you were truly unable, but perhaps you simply weren;t interested. The game really shouldn't care either way - it should primarily concern itself with the people that
do
play.I found it difficult to believe that someone so indifferent to the game that they claimed they wouldn't care whether they could log in for the next six years would bother posting on the game's forum . . .

It's
you
that seem to be missing that the whole point of this reward track is that there are always supposed to be rewards in front of you. No matter how much APs you have, and whether you are at the current cap or not.This is actually intrinsic to the problem we are trying to solve. Your belief that there will always be rewards in front of you means that the gap created by the missing ap due to the lost content will never be closed. Those affected now will ever be effected, making a solution more valuable, not less . . .Yes, those that started to run later, or run slower will not be able to catch up to those in the lead, unless those people stop on their own. I don't see a problem with that, as it is really
not
a race, and everyone will get to each checkpoint on the way at their own pace anyway. I certainly do not see a reason why the people in the lead have to be stopped in order for those that started late to catch up.And how would you address the shortcut that was closed after some players ran through, to use your analogy? There are runners that are farther behind than they would be, if the tracks designers had not been forced to close that portion of the track against their will . . .As long as the game is still alive and new APs are still introduced, there should
never
be a moment when you could even theoretically get
all
AP reward track rewards. That would remove most of the reason behind the very existence of this reward track.But in every moment, there will always be awards you would have access to if this content had not been lost due to a technical limitation.No, there would be a reward i would have access to
if only i started playing earlier, or put more effort in it in the past
. That's not the same. And it's not like i won't have access to that reward - i will get to it eventually, if i'll keep putting effort into it.You'll have to do more to explain this to me. Are you saying the content is not missing, or that it's missing intentionally, or that you agree it's missing due to a technical limitation, but you just don't care about how that affects other players? Bc I already let you know two pages ago that if that was your attitude, I could accept and disagree with it. You don't need to justify it . . .Notice, by the way, that's true to people missing ANY AP, not only those frol LS1.At this moment there's definitely an award that you would have access to if only you raided more, or played SPvP/WvW more, or......but you
didn't
.What you're ignoring here is that the ap you're describing is still available in the game. I can still pursue it. Even if LS1 had been designed as a jump start for early adopters I would agree with your point. Don't confuse missing ap due to lost content with ap that a player has available but has chosen not to pursue or even ap that anet has intentionally removed from the game . . .What is your aversion to addressing that problem?The fact that i'm still not persuaded that the problem exists, but very certain that your proposed "solution" actually accomplishes nothing positive whatsoever (and causes some problems of its own).The existence of the problem rests on three basic tenets. There is ap that was once available, and is no longer. This is due to a limitation that the game's designers recognize as an error. That missing ap cannot, at present, be recovered. Which of those three tenets do you disagree with? To say 'the problem doesn't exist', you must disbelieve one of those three statements, which are all three provably true. What I think you're trying to say is that you just don't care about the effects of the problem, which is not at all the same thing . . .Or perhaps more to the point, what is your aversion to anyone else addressing it either . . ?I am not. It's just that you're not addressing the problem, but simply creating a new one.That's flattering, but I was actually not involved with any the facts presented in any of the three statements above . . .It is your position then that players who started after LS2 do not have access to it? I can prove otherwise, but I'm afraid it wouldn't do any good :/No, but then your problem is
not
about people not having access to LS1. That is a very valid problem, and well worth discussion about, but you keep concentrating on something else completely.That's because as others have explained, we can't do anything about missing LS1. We can only address the consequences . . .

You however want to deprive the hardest and most veteran players of rewards,No, I said we could put them in birthday gifts, as an example. There are probably better ideas out there. See if you can come up with some . . .Okay, answer then: how would the fact that someone starting now would need to wait 7 years to get a reward some people got last summer be different than him needing to wait a year or two of LS chapters to be able to get to the point veteran players are at with AP?Or, differently: someone worked hard for the last 7 years to get to certain AP level today. According to your idea, they should get rewarded exactly the same as someone that created a character at day one, went missing for 7 years, and came back yesterday. Just because you think that the second person should not need to work for the next 7 years, but should get rewarded immediately. How exactly do you consider it fair?The fact that the lost content was lost unintentionally is the key.It wasn't lost
unintentionally
. It was specifically designed that way. It
was
a mistake, but at that time it was very much intentional.Okay, great. If your objection is to my word choice, I have no problem shifting to 'mistake'. Let's address the consequences of the mistake then . . .Anet would prefer for that content to still be available, as they have mentioned numerous times, most recently in the message from the content design lead of Feb 3, specifically noting that they would like to avoid that same mistake in the future . . .Again, you are not addressing the problem of missing LS1 at all. You are addressing the "problem" of some of the most hardworking veteran players having access to rewards you don't have access to
yet
. The content you speak of would still be unavailable.I'm addressing the consequences of the problem of missing LS1. Ignoring the fact that LS1 being lost is the cause of the problem would't affect the solution, but it would be sort of odd . . .Something undesirable happened in the past and it has consequences in the present. Why would you not want to address them . . ?I would.
You
on the other hand seem to be fixated on something else completely.Now, perhaps you can explain how the ap of a particular player affects how ap is missing from the game due to lost content, that loss being unintended and regrettable to the point that developers of the game are still focused on the error six years later.Again, it wasn't the loss of
AP
that was regrettable, but the loss of the
story
. And, like i already said, it wasn't really unintended either - they very much intended for the story to be transient then. They've just changed their minds later on.So what I understand you to be saying at this point is that you see losing the content as a mistake, and that you agree we should try to address the consequences of the mistake, but that the lost rewards are not one of those consequences. To which I again would remind you that I'm okay with your having that attitude towards other players in the game. Please try to understand that I do not share that apathy . . .Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .No, we haven't actually established that. Remember, that lack of those APs affect only those that do care about themUntrue . . .If someone doesn't care they don't have more APs accessible, then the loss of those APs doesn't affect them.It does affect them, they just don't care. It's semantic at this point . . .
  • and, specifically, those that are willing and capable of putting a lot of effort into obtaining those, to the level where they cannot supplement this lack with APs from other sources anymore. Those players in general are a minority in this game. A
    tiny
    minority.You do not need to have exhausted all sources of ap to feel the absence of the missing ap. It affects you all along the way, at every moment . . .Yes, you don't. But if you didn't even try to go for
    easily attainable
    APs, then you are not affected by not having access to one more source you would have ignored anyway.I don't understand how you can believe this. It is your position that any ap you do not have now is ap you have ignored and therefore you would not be affected if it was removed from the game? That could only be true of someone who obsessively pursues every ap at the moment of release . . .I mean, we're talking about less than 6k AP. Getting 6k Ap is trivial if you put just a little bit of effort - and yet a huge majority of players don't even have that much. Players that aren't willing to put an effort into getting even 6k AP out of those currently available should not concern themselves with those missing APs. After all, if those APs weren't missing, they wouldn't have obtained them anyway, because it would require way, way more effort than they've put into all the APs they've got so far.They would be available to them though. They would have had to go out of their way not to gather at least some of them . . .But would they care? I mean, if the majority of players cared about APs, the AP distribution among the player population would look completely different from what it is now.If LS1 ap was still available, perhaps the average AP would go up by like 50 points at best.Great! So you agree the problem exists, but you don't think it's worth addressing, even with a low cost solution. As I said two pages ago, I'm fine with your believing that. I just disagree . . .And then the content was lost.Yes. And your "solution" changes absolutely nothing about it - the content (LS1) would still be lost.But I address a consequence of that loss . . .So don't do that? Instead, focus on how we might best correct the consequences of the lost content. I asked you to present some ideas, and you have not done so. So, unfortunately, my idea remains the best available . . .And yet that "best" idea still solves nothing., as LS1 would still be lost.But it would address one of the consequences. Note that the post you quoted did not mention addressing the lost content, but its consequences. I accept that the content is lost . . .By the way, i did present an idea. Player wipe. It is as easy and cheap as yours, and it accomplishes about as much as yours. And I don't see what makes your "solution" any better.I apologize. I did not realize that was a serious suggestion as you yourself pointed out how much worse your idea was when you introduced it. My solution seems better bc it takes a lot less effort, removes nothing from the game, doesn't discount anyone's existing progress along the ap track and allows for what limited consequences it does have to be mitigated . . .It is "the best available" only because any actually working and satisfying solution would require a lot of effort on Anet's part. Your idea may be simple and easy to implement, but it simply isn't
    good
    . Just like my idea of a total player wipe.So how could it be improved?It would have to be completely scrapped for that.What would you replace it with . . ?It's low costTrue. Unfortunately that's its only good quality.Hint: i don't buy things only because they are cheap. If i did that, i would end up with a ton of trash i would have no need of.It solves the problem. That's another good quality. You don't recognize that quality bc even though you have acknowledged the problem, you don't believe it's a problem worth solving. If you'd rather sit in a pile of trash than accept my cheap trash bag, to use your example, I can accept that as your choice, but it doesn't mean I won't keep offering the bag . . ., addresses an issue affecting a large majority of accounts, at a cost to a small number of players, which can be mitigated.On the contrary, it does leave the core issue (missing LS1) completely untouched. It solves nothing, while causing additional problems. You are perfectly willing to dismantle the whole AP rewards system in order to solve an issue that affects maybe a handful of players, while leaving the real problem completely untouched.We can't do anything about LS1 being lost. I accept that. I do not accept that as a reason to ignore the consequences of the loss. Also, I'm assuming it was hyperbole but ofc my solution does not dismantle ap rewards. It only removes the unique rewards and leaves the repeating rewards, like any other track . . .I just don't see how you can "improve" on that without changing absolutely everything about this "solution".So give it a shot. Change something. If you disagree that it's better than a total player wipe, how is the player wipe better . . ?Mind you, if you were really interested in fixing the problem of lost content, the only satisfying solution would be reintroducing LS1. Instead you're talking about removing rewards from AP track, which has absolutely nothing to do with that, and still leaves that lost content
    lost
    .Which suggests, that LS1 is not what you are truly concerned about. The thing that irks you, and the "problem" you are so eager to correct seemt so only be the situation where players that have played more and/or longer will be able to reach certain rewards faster than those that played shorter/less.It's not the lost LS1 that you care about. It's only the
    rewards
    .I would love them to reintroduce LS1. But my understanding is that it is either impossible or difficult/expensive to the point that it is practically impossible. I think what confuses you is that accepting that LS1 is lost doesn't cause me to just throw up my hands, turn away and pretend there weren't problems created by that loss. As mentioned, several times, I like this idea bc it solves some of the problems created by the loss at a low cost. It is a good . . .Except the "problem" of missing APs is not a problem at all, because in reality it doesn't deprive anyone of anything.It does . . .At best it might delay some rewards for a small number of players.And after that delay, they find themselves in the same position they are now, missing just as many rewards farther along the track, until the rewards are removed . . .And this "low cost" you speak of is a complete destruction of a system that so far was working mostly fine, and is generally positively received by the population.Again, it destroys nothing . . .You have to look at a situation and try to figure out what the best solution is overall. You can't just look at your own situation and say "this is best for me, therefore it's the best thing . . "Oh, i did look at the situation, and that's
    exactly
    why i think that your "solution" is just bad for everyone.But you know it's not bad for everyone . . .
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@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:This is a disingenuous reply that demonstrates your insincerity in addressing the issue. No one who plays the game would be indifferent to being locked out of the game for six years. I am disappointed that you chose to reply, but not address the issue . . ....what? I mean, if you didn't play the game for 6 years, then it's a problem on your side, not on game's side. Perhaps you were truly unable, but perhaps you simply weren;t interested. The game really shouldn't care either way - it should primarily concern itself with the people that
do
play.I found it difficult to believe that someone so indifferent to the game that they claimed they wouldn't care whether they could log in for the next six years would bother posting on the game's forum . . ....you know, i have no idea what you're even talking about here.

And how would you address the shortcut that was closed after some players ran through, to use your analogy? There are runners that are farther behind than they would be, if the tracks designers had not been forced to close that portion of the track against their will . . .As it has been explained to you, designers hadn't been "forced to close that portion of the track against their will". It was a path that was
supposed
to be open only for a short while. It was designed that way. And so, everyone that used it, did it as they were meant to do. And now you're suggesting to punish them for it. By removing rewards they honestly worked for.

You'll have to do more to explain this to me. Are you saying the content is not missing, or that it's missing intentionally, or that you agree it's missing due to a technical limitation, but you just don't care about how that affects other players? Bc I already let you know two pages ago that if that was your attitude, I could accept and disagree with it. You don't need to justify it . . .I mean, that, for example, someone that has 6k AP, has no access to rewards from reward track from AP 6500 and above. There's absolutely no difference whether he doesn't have more AP because he didn't do LS1, or because he wasn't doing WvW, playing SPvP, raids, or skipped some later LS seasons.At any given moment, you don't have access to some rewards not because of some "technical limitations", but because you have not enough AP for them (yet). And, in case of 99.9% of players, that is not due to some "technical limitations", but simply because the player in question simply didn't get the APs that were available for them.

Notice, by the way, that's true to people missing ANY AP, not only those frol LSAt this moment there's definitely an award that you would have access to if only you raided more, or played SPvP/WvW more, or......but you
didn't
.What you're ignoring here is that the ap you're describing is still available in the game. I can still pursue it.Yes, you can. But you didn't. Don't blame that on LS1.Even if LS1 had been designed as a jump start for early adopters I would agree with your point. Don't confuse missing ap due to lost content with ap that a player has available but has chosen not to pursue or even ap that anet has intentionally removed from the game . . ....but LS1 AP
is
an AP to which access was intentionally removed from the game.

What is your aversion to addressing that problem?The fact that i'm still not persuaded that the problem exists, but very certain that your proposed "solution" actually accomplishes nothing positive whatsoever (and causes some problems of its own).The existence of the problem rests on three basic tenets. There is ap that was once available, and is no longer. This is due to a limitation that the game's designers recognize as an error. That missing ap cannot, at present, be recovered. Which of those three tenets do you disagree with?Second and third.Game designers indeed recognize as an error their decision to make LS1 transient and non-repeatable, but that is about the
story
of LS1. I don't believe they said even once anything about the APs from that time - and they definitely did not say anything like that about missing APs from initial holiday events. In fact, their treatment of holidays make me believe that having the original APs available again was never an important point to them (because, unlike with LS1, they could easily have done that when they redesigned current holiday events' achievements, and yet they didn't).And the third tenet you base your argument on, while technically true, is still faulty. Yes, those specific APs cannot be "recovered" - but you
can
replace them with new ones.Say, something prevented a player from doing dailies, and thus they didn't earn their 2 gold for today. That gold is lost, and cannot be recovered. They are now 2 gold behind someone that was able to login today. That's not a reason however to demand that everything that costs 2 gold more than this player currently has should be removed from vendors for everyone. Remember, tomorrow there will be another day, another daily, and another option to gain 2 gold from them.

To say 'the problem doesn't exist', you must disbelieve one of those three statements, which are all three provably true.I actually disbelieve one, consider another inconsequential, and consider the whole problem to be blown way out of proportions, only taking attention away from what's really important - the lack of LS1
storyline
.

What I think you're trying to say is that you just don't care about the effects of the problem, which is not at all the same thing . . .Yes, i don't think the ones you are concentrating on are important enough to warrant the nuclear option you're proposing.

Or perhaps more to the point, what is your aversion to anyone else addressing it either . . ?I am not. It's just that you're not addressing the problem, but simply creating a new one.That's flattering, but I was actually not involved with any the facts presented in any of the three statements above . . .First, those "facts" are highly debatable, second, they are not the problem. Again, the problem is missing LS 1
story
. You are not addressing that one, you are simply creating new problems in order to address something that does not need addressing.

The fact that the lost content was lost unintentionally is the key.It wasn't lost
unintentionally
. It was specifically designed that way. It
was
a mistake, but at that time it was very much intentional.Okay, great. If your objection is to my word choice, I have no problem shifting to 'mistake'. Let's address the consequences of the mistake then . . .The important consequences of the mistake are that the LS1 story is missing. The things you speak of are at best a minor nuisance, and only to a limited number of people - they are not a big problem however, and certainly not to a playerbase as a whole.

Anet would prefer for that content to still be available, as they have mentioned numerous times, most recently in the message from the content design lead of Feb 3, specifically noting that they would like to avoid that same mistake in the future . . .Again, you are not addressing the problem of missing LS1 at all. You are addressing the "problem" of some of the most hardworking veteran players having access to rewards you don't have access to
yet
. The content you speak of would still be unavailable.I'm addressing the consequences of the problem of missing LSno because the consequences (the ones that matter) would still remain unadressed.

So what I understand you to be saying at this point is that you see losing the content as a mistake, and that you agree we should try to address the consequences of the mistake, but that the lost rewards are not one of those consequences.Yes. Especially since, as it has been explained to you time and time again, the rewards are not lost. Merely delayed. And only for a very, very small number of people.

To which I again would remind you that I'm okay with your having that attitude towards other players in the game. Please try to understand that I do not share that apathyIt's not apathy. I'm just way more realistic about the scope of the "problem" you bring up than you are. And so i see that it is way, way smaller than you make it to be. Smaller than the problems your "solution" would cause.

Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .No, we haven't actually established that. Remember, that lack of those APs affect only those that do care about themUntrue . . .If someone doesn't care they don't have more APs accessible, then the loss of those APs doesn't affect them.It does affect them, they just don't care. It's semantic at this point . . .It may be semantic, but it is an important distinction, because it impacts how big the problem is. If a shop on the other side of town gets suddenly closed, it may be a problem, but it's not something that affects people that weren't going to buy anything in it in the first place.
  • and, specifically, those that are willing and capable of putting a lot of effort into obtaining those, to the level where they cannot supplement this lack with APs from other sources anymore. Those players in general are a minority in this game. A
    tiny
    minority.You do not need to have exhausted all sources of ap to feel the absence of the missing ap. It affects you all along the way, at every moment . . .Yes, you don't. But if you didn't even try to go for
    easily attainable
    APs, then you are not affected by not having access to one more source you would have ignored anyway.I don't understand how you can believe this. It is your position that any ap you do not have now is ap you have ignored and therefore you would not be affected if it was removed from the game? That could only be true of someone who obsessively pursues every ap at the moment of release . . .No, I believe that if you are not interested in something, you will not be affected if that something you're not interested in goes missing (see my shop example above). Someone that obsessively pursues every AP available is the exact opposite of that, and the kind of person that
    would
    be affected. It's just there's only a handful of such players in this game. And frankly most of those people would probably
    not
    be glad if one of the reasons why they are obsessively pursue every AP possible (unique rewards from AP track) would get removed.So, basically, your "fix" does not help anyone.

Great! So you agree the problem exists, but you don't think it's worth addressing, even with a low cost solution. As I said two pages ago, I'm fine with your believing that. I just disagree . . .Remember, the "low cost" you speak of is only in developer workload. What you ignore is the other cost of that solution, which would come from consequences of removing rewards from reward track. And
that
cost would not be low.

And then the content was lost.Yes. And your "solution" changes absolutely nothing about it - the content (LS1) would still be lost.But I address a consequence of that loss . . .In a way that would not help anyone, but would create a lot of negative consequences of its own.

So how could it be improved?It would have to be completely scrapped for that.What would you replace it with . . ?Any solution that would actually work. Yours does not.

, addresses an issue affecting a large majority of accounts, at a cost to a small number of players, which can be mitigated.On the contrary, it does leave the core issue (missing LS1) completely untouched. It solves nothing, while causing additional problems. You are perfectly willing to dismantle the whole AP rewards system in order to solve an issue that affects maybe a handful of players, while leaving the real problem completely untouched.We can't do anything about LS1 being lost. I accept that. I do not accept that as a reason to ignore the consequences of the loss. Also, I'm assuming it was hyperbole but ofc my solution does not dismantle ap rewards. It only removes the unique rewards and leaves the repeating rewards, like any other track . . .Most people do not care for the repeating rewards from that track at all (there have been a lot of threads about how people consider those trash). People grind AP not for those, but specifically for the unique ones. Without them, the whole reward track loses most of its meaning.

Except the "problem" of missing APs is not a problem at all, because in reality it doesn't deprive anyone of anything.It does . . .How? Show me a specific reward, and a specific player that is deprived of that reward due to not being able to do LS1 for APs. And i will show you how you are mistaken about your basic assumption.

At best it might delay some rewards for a small number of players.And after that delay, they find themselves in the same position they are now, missing just as many rewards farther along the trackAs every single player in the game, including those that did get most/all of LS1 APs. Remember, that every time the highest AP players get close to getting the last unique reward, Anet introduces new ones just behind their reach.When hellfire/radiant leg and chest pieces got introduced to AP track, noone could obtain even one of those sets, much less both. When someone obtained both, backpacks got introduced - and as far as i know noone can get both of those still.It is an infinite rewards track, that is its whole idea.So, yeah, every single player "misses" some rewards from the track. And every single player can obtain those rewards, if they only continue playing and putting effort into obtaining them.

And this "low cost" you speak of is a complete destruction of a system that so far was working mostly fine, and is generally positively received by the population.Again, it destroys nothing . . .See above - you want to destriy the core idea behind the AP track, and the main reason why people are pursuing APs. You are trying to nuke a city to get at a fly you find personally annoying.

You have to look at a situation and try to figure out what the best solution is overall. You can't just look at your own situation and say "this is best for me, therefore it's the best thing . . "Oh, i did look at the situation, and that's
exactly
why i think that your "solution" is just bad for everyone.But you know it's not bad for everyone . . .Okay, i'll give you that - it's not bad for everyone, only for some. It is however not
good
for anyone either.(and before you content that, please show me a person this would help, and explain how it would help that person).
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@Rasimir.6239 said:

@"hellsqueen.3045" said:LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience.
That isn't fair.

Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

It doesn't matter that LWS1 was "an experiment". After the experiment concluded, they should have been thinking of ways to include it because at the end of the day no players who joined after that period of time know the full story of the game which is unacceptable in a game where story is a pretty key aspect of it.

You can say experiment all you want, you can say it was live and you had to be there and it was in the moment.But that just isn't an acceptable excuse as to why that aspect of story is missing for players today.

The unique loot for new players to earn. Gone.The achieves. Gone.The Story. Gone.

You think some cut scene after you finish the core story is good enough?I can tell you it's not. I barely know anything about Scarlett after watching it.I know LITERALLY nothing about how I met Dragon's Watch members, their back story.I still don't 100% know anything about that period of time.

It's not fun to finish the story and jump into the next only to discover you don't know the whole plot for a story experience.There is no excuse. Moving ahead without coming up with a solution was a bad one.

Look at the new Kralkatorrik portals on a bunch of the maps right?Where do they take you?They take you to their own world, not part of the regular map.They are proving to us that you can be in instanced separate little realities with live events with a whole server of people, which could surely be used to put the LWS1 live events and fights into.They could put the entrances on the maps those things used to be on and even put them on a timer so people could jump into those maps periodically and once they left the area when the experience finished, they get rewarded.

Like we have the technology to do it.Shouldn't a full play experience matter for new players?

And the story instances, well you can still see old Lion's Arch in core story scenes so the updated map clearly doesn't matter for accessing the cut scenes

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@"Gop.8713" said:So we've discovered another word you're not using correctly. It makes it difficult to communicate . . .

infiniteadjective1.limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate."the infinite mercy of God"

Care to share with us the extent and the size of the achievement point total? Please measure/calculate it and present us the upper limit of the achievement points.

Pls read thread . . .

Take your suggestion and read it yourself. This thread isn't about achievement rewards, you derailed it towards that.

You can find the OP here:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60816/achievement-point-discussion/p1

and the OP's plea to return to the topic:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1159230/#Comment_1159230

Pls show me how to select the rewards that would have been unlocked by the ap missing from the lost content at this time. I cannot find them in my UI. An oversight on my part I am certain . . .

Pls show me evidence that Episode 3 of the Icebrood Saga won't add any new achievement points. Also, have you completed all other achievement points that the game offers?

Every player who does not have the lost ap is further behind on the track than they would be at the current moment.

Everyone will get the rewards, unless you provide the evidence requested above, so your problem is with the AP number. Gotcha, I thought you said earlier that it wasn't and you don't care about it.

Content was lost. Consequences ensued. Solutions were posed. You put your head in the sand . . .

The only players that will be affected by the loss of AP (as a number, rewards are always available to everyone) are those that already finished all other achievements in the game. According to the leaderboards, no player has every single achievement completed yet (but are very close) so the loss of AP by the loss of content isn't affecting anyone at the present. A player cannot complain that they are missing old AP at the same time as 90% of the game's accounts have less than 2.8k AP. They have approximately 35k achievement points available to them to go get. Complaining about missing AP before first obtaining all others is meaningless.

I was meaning to ask this sooner, do you like that Raids have unique Legendary Armor tied to them? This is a yes/no question and no need to derail the thread further with that. Because there was someone in the easy mode threads on the Raid forums who loved multiple quotes, derailing threads and proposing problems that do not exist.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:This is a disingenuous reply that demonstrates your insincerity in addressing the issue. No one who plays the game would be indifferent to being locked out of the game for six years. I am disappointed that you chose to reply, but not address the issue . . ....what? I mean, if you didn't play the game for 6 years, then it's a problem on your side, not on game's side. Perhaps you were truly unable, but perhaps you simply weren;t interested. The game really shouldn't care either way - it should primarily concern itself with the people that
do
play.I found it difficult to believe that someone so indifferent to the game that they claimed they wouldn't care whether they could log in for the next six years would bother posting on the game's forum . . ....you know, i have no idea what you're even talking about here.I asked if you would be bothered by not being able to log in to the game for six years and you said no. I find that implausible . . .And how would you address the shortcut that was closed after some players ran through, to use your analogy? There are runners that are farther behind than they would be, if the tracks designers had not been forced to close that portion of the track against their will . . .As it has been explained to you, designers hadn't been "forced to close that portion of the track against their will". It was a path that was
supposed
to be open only for a short while. It was designed that way. And so, everyone that used it, did it as they were meant to do. And now you're suggesting to punish them for it. By removing rewards they honestly worked for.And the track designers now recognize that as a mistake, yes. I'm happy to adjust to your verbage, the problem remains the same. Also no, I'm not suggesting that any unlocked rewards be removed, only rewards that haven't been unlocked yet, to compensate for the mistake . . .You'll have to do more to explain this to me. Are you saying the content is not missing, or that it's missing intentionally, or that you agree it's missing due to a technical limitation, but you just don't care about how that affects other players? Bc I already let you know two pages ago that if that was your attitude, I could accept and disagree with it. You don't need to justify it . . .I mean, that, for example, someone that has 6k AP, has no access to rewards from reward track from AP 6500 and above. There's absolutely no difference whether he doesn't have more AP because he didn't do LS1, or because he wasn't doing WvW, playing SPvP, raids, or skipped some later LS seasons.At any given moment, you don't have access to some rewards not because of some "technical limitations", but because you have not enough AP for them (yet). And, in case of 99.9% of players, that is not due to some "technical limitations", but simply because the player in question simply didn't get the APs that were available for them.Then that is where you are confused. I'm speaking of the difference between ap a player hasn't done yet, which is still available to them, and the mistakenly lost ap from LS1, which will never be available to them, that they could choose to do now otherwise. Which affects everyone who hasn't done it . . .

Notice, by the way, that's true to people missing ANY AP, not only those frol LSAt this moment there's definitely an award that you would have access to if only you raided more, or played SPvP/WvW more, or......but you
didn't
.What you're ignoring here is that the ap you're describing is still available in the game. I can still pursue it.Yes, you can. But you didn't. Don't blame that on LS1.I wasn't? It's "haven't", not "didn't". You were conflating ap that is still in the game (raiding, pvp, wvw) with ap that is lost from LS1. 'Didn't' only applies to the lost ap. It's apples and oranges . . .Even if LS1 had been designed as a jump start for early adopters I would agree with your point. Don't confuse missing ap due to lost content with ap that a player has available but has chosen not to pursue or even ap that anet has intentionally removed from the game . . ....but LS1 AP
is
an AP to which access was intentionally removed from the game.I thought we had settled on mistakenly? If you're saying the intent was to give early players a jump start that would change things, as I've already mentioned. But I'd need some evidence of that intent. All the evidence we have points in the other direction . . .

What is your aversion to addressing that problem?The fact that i'm still not persuaded that the problem exists, but very certain that your proposed "solution" actually accomplishes nothing positive whatsoever (and causes some problems of its own).The existence of the problem rests on three basic tenets. There is ap that was once available, and is no longer. This is due to a limitation that the game's designers recognize as an error. That missing ap cannot, at present, be recovered. Which of those three tenets do you disagree with?Second and third.Game designers indeed recognize as an error their decision to make LS1 transient and non-repeatable, but that is about the
story
of LS1. I don't believe they said even once anything about the APs from that time - and they definitely did not say anything like that about missing APs from initial holiday events. In fact, their treatment of holidays make me believe that having the original APs available again was never an important point to them (because, unlike with LS1, they could easily have done that when they redesigned current holiday events' achievements, and yet they didn't).This sounds interesting. Share more about this additional missing ap . . .And the third tenet you base your argument on, while technically true, is still faulty. Yes, those specific APs cannot be "recovered" - but you
can
replace them with new ones.'Technically true'. Lol. So what you're saying is it's true, but you don't like it, so you're going to act like it's not true :pSay, something prevented a player from doing dailies, and thus they didn't earn their 2 gold for today. That gold is lost, and cannot be recovered. They are now 2 gold behind someone that was able to login today. That's not a reason however to demand that everything that costs 2 gold more than this player currently has should be removed from vendors for everyone. Remember, tomorrow there will be another day, another daily, and another option to gain 2 gold from them.Was their inability to log in today the consequence of a design error . . ?To say 'the problem doesn't exist', you must disbelieve one of those three statements, which are all three provably true.I actually disbelieve one, consider another inconsequential, and consider the whole problem to be blown way out of proportions, only taking attention away from what's really important - the lack of LS1
storyline
.I'm not sure how it could be blown out of proportion. I've always maintained it was a small problem with an easy solution . . .What I think you're trying to say is that you just don't care about the effects of the problem, which is not at all the same thing . . .Yes, i don't think the ones you are concentrating on are important enough to warrant the nuclear option you're proposing.I really do believe that you're exaggerating the consequences of the solution posed, but if you recognize the problem and feel the cure is worse than the disease I'm fine with your having an opinion I disagree with. I've only argued with you when you insisted the problem didn't exist . . .Or perhaps more to the point, what is your aversion to anyone else addressing it either . . ?I am not. It's just that you're not addressing the problem, but simply creating a new one.That's flattering, but I was actually not involved with any the facts presented in any of the three statements above . . .First, those "facts" are highly debatable, second, they are not the problem. Again, the problem is missing LS 1
story
. You are not addressing that one, you are simply creating new problems in order to address something that does not need addressing.The problem I'm addressing is one of the consequences of losing LS1, since bringing LS1 back is beyond our hopes, as I understand it. Ofc I would prefer to have LS1 treated just like all the other living stories. It's just not possible . . .The fact that the lost content was lost unintentionally is the key.It wasn't lost
unintentionally
. It was specifically designed that way. It
was
a mistake, but at that time it was very much intentional.Okay, great. If your objection is to my word choice, I have no problem shifting to 'mistake'. Let's address the consequences of the mistake then . . .The important consequences of the mistake are that the LS1 story is missing. The things you speak of are at best a minor nuisance, and only to a limited number of people - they are not a big problem however, and certainly not to a playerbase as a whole.We disagree here, but that's fine. At least you've stopped pretending the problem doesn't exist . . .Anet would prefer for that content to still be available, as they have mentioned numerous times, most recently in the message from the content design lead of Feb 3, specifically noting that they would like to avoid that same mistake in the future . . .Again, you are not addressing the problem of missing LS1 at all. You are addressing the "problem" of some of the most hardworking veteran players having access to rewards you don't have access to
yet
. The content you speak of would still be unavailable.I'm addressing the consequences of the problem of missing LSno because the consequences (the ones that matter) would still remain unadressed.Only bc we can't do anything about those. It's still worth doing what we can . . .So what I understand you to be saying at this point is that you see losing the content as a mistake, and that you agree we should try to address the consequences of the mistake, but that the lost rewards are not one of those consequences.Yes. Especially since, as it has been explained to you time and time again, the rewards are not lost. Merely delayed. And only for a very, very small number of people.This is not true, as I have also explained time and again. I feel like I need a graph . . .To which I again would remind you that I'm okay with your having that attitude towards other players in the game. Please try to understand that I do not share that apathyIt's not apathy. I'm just way more realistic about the scope of the "problem" you bring up than you are. And so i see that it is way, way smaller than you make it to be. Smaller than the problems your "solution" would cause.So you agree the problem exists, and we disagree as to its scope and the consequences of the proposed solution. If you look back, you'll see this is significant progress. If you had been able to adopt this perspective from the start it could have just been left at that. You could have used all this energy to develop a better solution . . .

Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .No, we haven't actually established that. Remember, that lack of those APs affect only those that do care about themUntrue . . .If someone doesn't care they don't have more APs accessible, then the loss of those APs doesn't affect them.It does affect them, they just don't care. It's semantic at this point . . .It may be semantic, but it is an important distinction, because it impacts how big the problem is. If a shop on the other side of town gets suddenly closed, it may be a problem, but it's not something that affects people that weren't going to buy anything in it in the first place.I think it goes more to how important it is than how large it is. It is a very large, but fairly minor problem, with a proposed solution with even smaller consequences . . .
  • and, specifically, those that are willing and capable of putting a lot of effort into obtaining those, to the level where they cannot supplement this lack with APs from other sources anymore. Those players in general are a minority in this game. A
    tiny
    minority.You do not need to have exhausted all sources of ap to feel the absence of the missing ap. It affects you all along the way, at every moment . . .Yes, you don't. But if you didn't even try to go for
    easily attainable
    APs, then you are not affected by not having access to one more source you would have ignored anyway.I don't understand how you can believe this. It is your position that any ap you do not have now is ap you have ignored and therefore you would not be affected if it was removed from the game? That could only be true of someone who obsessively pursues every ap at the moment of release . . .No, I believe that if you are not interested in something, you will not be affected if that something you're not interested in goes missing (see my shop example above). Someone that obsessively pursues every AP available is the exact opposite of that, and the kind of person that
    would
    be affected. It's just there's only a handful of such players in this game. And frankly most of those people would probably
    not
    be glad if one of the reasons why they are obsessively pursue every AP possible (unique rewards from AP track) would get removed.But can you not understand that the vast majority of players in the game have ap that is available, that they have not acquired yet, that they are interested in? You yourself point that out here, that only a very small portion of the player base feels otherwise . . .So, basically, your "fix" does not help anyone.It would help all those ppl. Pretty close to everyone . . .Great! So you agree the problem exists, but you don't think it's worth addressing, even with a low cost solution. As I said two pages ago, I'm fine with your believing that. I just disagree . . .Remember, the "low cost" you speak of is only in developer workload. What you ignore is the other cost of that solution, which would come from consequences of removing rewards from reward track. And
    that
    cost would not be low.It could be low. It depends on how it's implemented . . .And then the content was lost.Yes. And your "solution" changes absolutely nothing about it - the content (LS1) would still be lost.But I address a consequence of that loss . . .In a way that would not help anyone, but would create a lot of negative consequences of its own.In a way that would help almost everyone, and with consequences that could be easily mitigated . . .So how could it be improved?It would have to be completely scrapped for that.What would you replace it with . . ?Any solution that would actually work. Yours does not.Pick one . . ., addresses an issue affecting a large majority of accounts, at a cost to a small number of players, which can be mitigated.On the contrary, it does leave the core issue (missing LS1) completely untouched. It solves nothing, while causing additional problems. You are perfectly willing to dismantle the whole AP rewards system in order to solve an issue that affects maybe a handful of players, while leaving the real problem completely untouched.We can't do anything about LS1 being lost. I accept that. I do not accept that as a reason to ignore the consequences of the loss. Also, I'm assuming it was hyperbole but ofc my solution does not dismantle ap rewards. It only removes the unique rewards and leaves the repeating rewards, like any other track . . .Most people do not care for the repeating rewards from that track at all (there have been a lot of threads about how people consider those trash). People grind AP not for those, but specifically for the unique ones. Without them, the whole reward track loses most of its meaning.If that were true, I would see it as another strong reason to remove the unique rewards . . .Except the "problem" of missing APs is not a problem at all, because in reality it doesn't deprive anyone of anything.It does . . .How? Show me a specific reward, and a specific player that is deprived of that reward due to not being able to do LS1 for APs. And i will show you how you are mistaken about your basic assumption.I don't know the specific numbers for all this, but I'll try to give you the same example I gave the other guy. I'll use 6k as the missing ap number bc that's what the other guy is using, I have no idea how accurate it is. But it's just an example, it works with any number really. Let's say someone to whom LS1 is lost is at 30k and just unlocked their first chest piece (I checked these rewards on the wiki, I'm assuming they are correct but I do not know for a fact, it's okay, it's just an example, I'm sure they're close enough). If they had access to LS1, they would have some additional ap, up to another 6k. That's the second chest piece, the second leg piece, four weapon skins and a title, again according to the wiki. The coutnerargument that has been posed is that once another 6k of rewards is released into the game they will get those rewards anyway, which is true. But at that point the same player will be missing both backguards, four more skins and another title. It goes on this way until the rewards are removed . . .At best it might delay some rewards for a small number of players.And after that delay, they find themselves in the same position they are now, missing just as many rewards farther along the trackAs every single player in the game, including those that did get most/all of LS1 APs. Remember, that every time the highest AP players get close to getting the last unique reward, Anet introduces new ones just behind their reach.When hellfire/radiant leg and chest pieces got introduced to AP track, noone could obtain even one of those sets, much less both. When someone obtained both, backpacks got introduced - and as far as i know noone can get both of those still.It is an infinite rewards track, that is its whole idea.So, yeah, every single player "misses" some rewards from the track. And every single player can obtain those rewards, if they only continue playing and putting effort into obtaining them.But most players are missing ap from the mistakenly lost content, which means there are awards they should have access to, but don't . . .And this "low cost" you speak of is a complete destruction of a system that so far was working mostly fine, and is generally positively received by the population.Again, it destroys nothing . . .See above - you want to destriy the core idea behind the AP track, and the main reason why people are pursuing APs. You are trying to nuke a city to get at a fly you find personally annoying.That is wild exaggeration. The effects could be very small, if handled properly . . .You have to look at a situation and try to figure out what the best solution is overall. You can't just look at your own situation and say "this is best for me, therefore it's the best thing . . "Oh, i did look at the situation, and that's
    exactly
    why i think that your "solution" is just bad for everyone.But you know it's not bad for everyone . . .Okay, i'll give you that - it's not bad for everyone, only for some. It is however not
    good
    for anyone either.(and before you content that, please show me a person this would help, and explain how it would help that person).It would help everyone that was missing the ap, like the player in the example above . . .

@Gop.8713 said:So we've discovered another word you're not using correctly. It makes it difficult to communicate . . .

infiniteadjective1.limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate."the infinite mercy of God"

Care to share with us the extent and the size of the achievement point total? Please measure/calculate it and present us the upper limit of the achievement points.Oh I am so not going to spend my time doing that. But the data is there if you are so inclined. It's somewhere in the low forties atm, from what I understand . . .

Pls read thread . . .

Take your suggestion and read it yourself. This thread isn't about achievement rewards, you derailed it towards that.

You can find the OP here:

and the OP's plea to return to the topic:
It's okay, I wouldn't want to read it either if I was you :)

Pls show me how to select the rewards that would have been unlocked by the ap missing from the lost content at this time. I cannot find them in my UI. An oversight on my part I am certain . . .

Pls show me evidence that Episode 3 of the Icebrood Saga won't add any new achievement points. Also, have you completed all other achievement points that the game offers?Has ep3 been released? If not, it is not in the game, it is a planned, future release. See earlier examples to understand how gathering new cheeves does not affect the missing total . . .

Every player who does not have the lost ap is further behind on the track than they would be at the current moment.

Everyone will get the rewards, unless you provide the evidence requested above, so your problem is with the AP number. Gotcha, I thought you said earlier that it wasn't and you don't care about it.Evidence provided, pleased to correct, look forward to your reply. Okay, I was just being polite on that last bit I admit . . .

Content was lost. Consequences ensued. Solutions were posed. You put your head in the sand . . .

The only players that will be affected by the loss of AP (as a number, rewards are always available to everyone) are those that already finished all other achievements in the game. According to the leaderboards, no player has every single achievement completed yet (but are very close) so the loss of AP by the loss of content isn't affecting anyone at the present. A player cannot complain that they are missing old AP at the same time as 90% of the game's accounts have less than 2.8k AP. They have approximately 35k achievement points available to them to go get. Complaining about missing AP before first obtaining all others is meaningless.Attempting to distract from the rewards the missing ap is depriving players of atm by talking about the total number of ap is not helpful . . .I was meaning to ask this sooner, do you like that Raids have unique Legendary Armor tied to them? This is a yes/no question and no need to derail the thread further with that. Because there was someone in the easy mode threads on the Raid forums who loved multiple quotes, derailing threads and proposing problems that do not exist.Was it you . . ?

If raids were lost to us due to a design mistake and someone proposed a way to reintroduce the unique rewards I would probably be in favor of it. It's not really an apples to apples comparison though, since the armor is a reward for the content, it doesn't affect anything outside of itself. I'd be more concerned about all the players affected by the opportunity to acquire that raid ap, since presumably the unique rewards on the ap track would still be in place at that point . . .

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@"Gop.8713" said:Oh I am so not going to spend my time doing that. But the data is there if you are so inclined. It's somewhere in the low forties atm, from what I understand . . .

You mean it will be in the low forties when Episode 3 is released? Or in 6 years from now? Please show us your data to support that theory.

It's okay, I wouldn't want to read it either if I was you :)

So you admit you don't care about the thread topic being discussed. Good to know.

Has ep3 been released? If not, it is not in the game, it is a planned, future release. See earlier examples to understand how gathering new cheeves does not affect the missing total . . .

You didn't really answer the question. How do you know Episode 3 won't have any achievements? There is loads of AP out there for you to earn those rewards regardless of those missing ones. Once you have all of those achievements you can post back.

Evidence provided, pleased to correct, look forward to your reply. Okay, I was just being polite on that last bit I admit . . .

I see no evidence there. Post a link next time that clearly shows the developer intention of not providing achievements in Episode 3, because I don't see any.

Attempting to distract from the rewards the missing ap is depriving players of atm by talking about the total number of ap is not helpful . . .

The missing AP isn't depriving any players from rewards. You assume that the AP "missing" will have been finished by the players. That's false, given the low average AP total of the players of this game. Meaning even if those AP were still available, players wouldn't have them unlocked in the first place. Derailing the thread isn't helpful either.

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Just stop feeding the troll.

Even topic creator has asked this topic return to the original intent:

  • reintroduce AP missed from season 1
  • never intended to argue removal of unique AP rewards, that's a different posters personal goal (or just his personal pet peeve)

@hellsqueen.3045 said:How did this become an argument about removing achievement rewards?

Achievement Points are cool, they allow you to get a point of recognition for doing something beyond what the regular goal is. EG. Killing a boss without getting hit by certain abilities, etc.You are rewarded for doing more than the bare minimum.Which is why I cannot agree that it should somehow be linked to loyalty. That's what character birthday's are for.

Achievements are about rewarding you for going out of your way to do something extra.

Some of the misconceptions present were corrected:

  • total AP missed is very low, both back when the topic was created in 2018, even more so now
  • the reason for the huge amount of daily AP gained and where that comes from
  • the fact that rate at which new AP possibilities are introduced is of far greater concern than some missed AP
  • the fact that a vast majority of players are not affected in a way for which they would actively care about this issue (again, new AP possibilities are of far greater concern here)

The main benefit of making the Season 1 story available is for story continuity, which would be of far more significant impact to many players, especially those who missed season 1.

There is no need to further derail this topic with assumptions about AP reward removal or talk about reward tracks or change to daily AP rewards or other such nonsense. That was never part of the original discussion, nor part of what topic creator intended (or was argued over the initial pages of this thread).

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@hellsqueen.3045 said:

@hellsqueen.3045 said:LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience.
That isn't fair.

Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

It doesn't matter that LWS1 was "an experiment". After the experiment concluded, they should have been thinking of ways to include itOh, I'm sure they did think about it, and more than once (or twice or a dozend times). What I'm saying is not that they shouldn't care about bringing back season 1. I'm sure they'd love to do that.

What I'm saying is that there isn't anything to bring back. It no longer exists. I'm sure the developers are just as unhappy about how that turned out as you and I. They are doing their best to salvage as much as they can (see most if not all of the unique season 1 rewards returned to the game by now and available through new ways, or the season 1 dungeons converted to fractals). They just can't conjure up content that doesn't exist (and never existed in any persistant form).

There may be many people that missed season 1 and would love to play through the story (I missed part of it myself due to busy phases in real life, and would love to go back and replay others), but realistically story, especially old story you've been through (or at least through parts of it) before, is not what keeps most players playing a game like this. Personally I love to replay this game's stories time and time again, but I acknowledge that most people I know are bored after a run or two and just want to get it over with. Digging up resources to recreate such an extensive project as season 1 (and pretty much recreate it from scratch) just isn't feasible from a business point of view.

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@Rasimir.6239 said:

@hellsqueen.3045 said:LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience.
That isn't fair.

Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

It doesn't matter that LWS1 was "an experiment". After the experiment concluded, they should have been thinking of ways to include itOh, I'm sure they did think about it, and more than once (or twice or a dozend times). What I'm saying is not that they shouldn't care about bringing back season 1. I'm sure they'd love to do that.

What I'm saying is that there isn't anything to bring back. It no longer exists. I'm sure the developers are just as unhappy about how that turned out as you and I. They are doing their best to salvage as much as they can (see most if not all of the unique season 1 rewards returned to the game by now and available through new ways, or the season 1 dungeons converted to fractals). They just can't conjure up content that doesn't exist (and never existed in any persistant form).

There may be many people that missed season 1 and would love to play through the story (I missed part of it myself due to busy phases in real life, and would love to go back and replay others), but realistically story, especially old story you've been through (or at least through parts of it) before, is not what keeps most players playing a game like this. Personally I love to replay this game's stories time and time again, but I acknowledge that most people I know are bored after a run or two and just want to get it over with. Digging up resources to recreate such an extensive project as season 1 (and pretty much recreate it from scratch) just isn't feasible from a business point of view.

Games never just get rid of the old content that they remove.How else do we have festivals returning that are up to date, etc?How else do we get these old games returning and remastered games?

They would still have all of the content there.You don't just get rid of that sort of stuff as creators.

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@"hellsqueen.3045" said:You don't just get rid of that sort of stuff as creators.

I agree with your point that Season 1 needs to come back, but I'm gonna address this here. They didn't get rid of their content, they overwrote it. So a team created an event in Wayfarer Foothills, then another team came along and wrote new code on top of the old one, adding new events there. Un-tangling this code to present Season 1 as it was is a very difficult process, especially considering that many mechanics used in that age no longer exist. I'm positive the art assets and the sound files weren't deleted, as we see assets from Season 1 in Fractals for example, it's the code that's the problem.

And this "overwrite" issue was confirmed by the developers, meaning the code from individual Season 1 episodes doesn't exist anymore.

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@hellsqueen.3045 said:They would still have all of the content there.You don't just get rid of that sort of stuff as creators.There never was that kind of content to begin with. Most of season one consisted of open world events that make NO sense at all when ripped out of their timeline.

ANet is already reusing as many assest from season 1 as they can (skins, dungeons), but most of what transportet the story back then simply DOES NOT EXIST. There is no story journal, there is no cohesive story. There simply is a collection of events and npc dialogue that MAKE NO SENSE alongside content sitting in the same map space but belonging to a different point in the season timeline.

In season 1 Tyria really was a living, breathing, and everchanging world, but the price for that was not working in the constraints of persistant storytelling that allows players to experience different parts of the story alongside each other. Those assets you claim they didn't get rid of never existed in the first place. Most of the persistant assets already have been reintroduced into the game, but the storytelling back then was live in a way that is simply impossible to preserve.

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@Gop.8713 said:

@"hellsqueen.3045" said:LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience.
That isn't fair.

Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

That is very well described, thank you. Now, given that we all agree that the experiment failed, and that repairing the failure is cost-prohibitive, why would you not want to mitigate the damage of the failure . . ?I would if I had a good idea how to do so, but I don't agree with your idea of how to do it. That's got too many drawbacks in my view, most if not all already mentioned several times by other posters in this thread.
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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gop.8713 said:Oh I am so not going to spend my time doing that. But the data is there if you are so inclined. It's somewhere in the low forties atm, from what I understand . . .

You mean it will be in the low forties when Episode 3 is released? Or in 6 years from now? Please show us your data to support that theory.'atm' was 'at the moment', so again, as I've been doing since the beginning, I'm referring to the current state of the game, which does not include ep 3. Ofc it doesn't matter, but I think it would be easier for you to understand the problem if you focused on that first, then you could better understand how the problem can't be resolved by the introduction of additional cheeves unless the unique rewards are removed . . .

It's okay, I wouldn't want to read it either if I was you :)

So you admit you don't care about the thread topic being discussed. Good to know.

Has ep3 been released? If not, it is not in the game, it is a planned, future release. See earlier examples to understand how gathering new cheeves does not affect the missing total . . .

You didn't really answer the question. How do you know Episode 3 won't have any achievements? There is loads of AP out there for you to earn those rewards regardless of those missing ones. Once you have all of those achievements you can post back.I have every confidence that ep 3 will be release and will have cheeves. I'm equally confident that will do nothing to address the problem . . .

Evidence provided, pleased to correct, look forward to your reply. Okay, I was just being polite on that last bit I admit . . .

I see no evidence there. Post a link next time that clearly shows the developer intention of not providing achievements in Episode 3, because I don't see any.As I am speaking of the present, I need no proof about the future . . .

Attempting to distract from the rewards the missing ap is depriving players of atm by talking about the total number of ap is not helpful . . .

The missing AP isn't depriving any players from rewards. You assume that the AP "missing" will have been finished by the players. That's false, given the low average AP total of the players of this game. Meaning even if those AP were still available, players wouldn't have them unlocked in the first place. Derailing the thread isn't helpful either.They would have access to them to do at their leisure, just like all the other cheeves in the game they haven't done yet . . .@Cyninja.2954 said:Just stop feeding the troll.

I can't help myself. He might learn something . . .@Rasimir.6239 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@"hellsqueen.3045" said:LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience.
That isn't fair.

Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

That is very well described, thank you. Now, given that we all agree that the experiment failed, and that repairing the failure is cost-prohibitive, why would you not want to mitigate the damage of the failure . . ?I would if I had a good idea how to do so, but I don't agree with your idea of how to do it. That's got too many drawbacks in my view, most if not all already mentioned several times by other posters in this thread.

The only drawback I've seen mentioned is that it would negatively impact the players who do have the ap that was lost to the design error, which I too see as a problem, but one easily remedied by offering the rewards through other means. I'd love to support another solution but the only other one I've seen posed is that we do nothing, which impacts all of the players who do not have the lost ap. As I see the second group as much larger -- and therefore more significant -- than the first group, I lean towards the solution that addresses the harm to the second group while mitigating the damage to the first as much as possible . . .
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@Gop.8713 said:'atm' was 'at the moment'

That's not how achievement points work. So I'll ask again, what's the upper limit of achievement points?

I'll re-post the meaning of infinite:

limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.

Can you measure/calculate the upper limit of the achievement point total? Is there a limit to the achievement point total? Do share it. Otherwise by the definition of the word, it's infinite.

I have every confidence that ep 3 will be release and will have cheeves.

Then there is no problem here. The achievement point influx won't stop, therefore all achievement rewards are -still- available to all players.

As I am speaking of the present, I need no proof about the future . . .

You do. so where is it? Present is irrelevant when discussing achievement rewards.

They would have access to them to do at their leisure, just like all the other cheeves in the game they haven't done yet . . .

And? That doesn't mean they'd finish them so it's besides the point. And since we've established that episode 3 will provide achievements, you said it yourself, there is no problem with achievement rewards, therefore no need to remove the unique rewards from them.

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I began playing in late July 2014 - so 4 months after LW1 had finished - and have been an avid player since. I currently have a reasonable 32,600 AP - with 4,100 still achievable ingame according to GW2Efficiency.

Assuming that the highest current player (at 41,853) has all or almost all achievements, that puts the actual LS1/ 'other' deficit at around 5,000 AP. It's really not a small amount - and despite my devotion to the game, I have no way of capturing this in my own time. Ever. Despite almost six years of play.

One option could be for Arenanet to calculate the 'lost' AP of each player - and re-open daily achievements for each until that gap is filled . In my case it would take 71 weeks. Otherwise, that 5,000 AP gap is permanent for me and all other post LS1 players.

This could also help re-engage many veterans - particularly those who only did parts of LS1 - or joined the game afterwards.

[Edited to correct the length of time I've played]

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@"Fleabite.7528" said:I began playing in late June 2015 - so 15 months after LW1 had finished - and have been an avid player since. I currently have a reasonable 32,600 AP - with 4,100 still achievable ingame according to GW2Efficiency.

Assuming that the highest current player (at 41,853) has all or almost all achievements, that puts the actual LS1/ 'other' deficit at around 5,000 AP. It's really not a small amount - and despite my devotion to the game, I have no way of capturing this in my own time. Ever. Despite almost five years of play.

One option could be for Arenanet to calculate the 'lost' AP of each player - and re-open daily achievements for each until that gap is filled . In my case it would take 71 weeks. Otherwise, that 5,000 AP gap is permanent for me and all other post LS1 players.

This could also help re-engage many veterans - particularly those who only did parts of LS1 - or joined the game afterwards.

The total missing/unavailable AP is about 5837. Extending the daily/monthly cap up to that amount is a very good idea, I think I made a post about that same idea some years ago. The "issue" with that is acceptance that Season 1 won't be coming back, ever. At the very least they could start by adding achievements that no longer exist but aren't part of Season 1, like the old "hint completion" achievement (yes something silly like that used to exist).

But this: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97535/anet-please-unhide-nimble-onslaught-achievement is kind of their answer. Not only are they not adding "catch up" AP, but they even increase the number of unavailable ones. There are also the PVP title achievements that are no longer obtainable, and some others, showing clearly that the developers simply don't care. And to be fair given how 90% of the accounts have below 3k AP, the number of players affected, those close to reaching the cap in the first place, is very low. And the company is all about going with the "majority" these last months

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:to be fair given how 90% of the accounts have below 3k AP, the number of players affected, those close to reaching the cap in the first place, is very low. And the company is all about going with the "majority" these last months<

We do know however that the 15k AP daily cap has a big negative impact on veteran players [see the endless threads here] with a hard dropoff in incentivisation. Keeping long term players engaged should be a big focus for ArenaNet.

If all 'lost' APs are potentially available to all players via a personal daily cap - even those at the top of the leader board - then AP hunting becomes about completion for the whole playerbase, rather than those in from the beginning and lucky/ committed enough to have logged on for every (now lost) achievement.

It may still take me years to get my available ingame 4,000 AP. And I wouldn't get the 'missing' 5,000 AP for around 18 months of new dailies if they implemented that fix - so it's still down to me to commit and play.

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@Fleabite.7528 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:to be fair given how 90% of the accounts have below 3k AP, the number of players affected, those close to reaching the cap in the first place, is very low. And the company is all about going with the "majority" these last months<

We do know however that the 15k AP daily cap has a big negative impact on veteran players [see the endless threads here] with a hard dropoff in incentivisation. Keeping long term players engaged should be a big focus for ArenaNet.

If all 'lost' APs are potentially available to all players via a personal daily cap - even those at the top of the leader board - then AP hunting becomes about completion for the whole playerbase, rather than those in from the beginning and lucky/ committed enough to have logged on for every (now lost) achievement.

It may still take me years to get my available ingame 4,000 AP. And I wouldn't get the 'missing' 5,000 AP for around 18 months of new dailies if they implemented that fix - so it's still down to me to commit and play.

Isn't adding 200+ AP every episode not enough to give veteran players incentive? I'm not sure how the removal of the daily cap (as it's proposed in those same threads) would give more incentive to veteran players than entirely new achievements through the episodes. And they do keep long term players engaged through the use of new AP on all episodes (some of them requiring a great amount of repetition too). That "big negative impact" of the daily cap is a joke if you ask me, and it is just some players that "pretend" to care about the achievements but in reality all they want is access to the achievement rewards without doing the achievements, just spamming the same dailies over and over. Others want the complete removal of the achievement rewards for the same reason, being too lazy, and find all the useless justification they can imagine.

Went on a rant there, but the idea of "losing incentive" when reaching the daily cap is just non-sense. As I said I'm not against increasing the daily cap, per player, based on the achievements they miss, but that has its own issues. Look how only a few days ago they made an achievement unavailable, what would happen in that case? Increase the daily cap every time some new achievement becomes unavailable? At the very least, the first step would be to stop making unavailable achievements.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gop.8713 said:'atm' was 'at the moment'

That's not how achievement points work. So I'll ask again, what's the upper limit of achievement points?It is in fact. As mentioned, I think the upper limit is somewhere in the low forties atm. I believe that's assuming players have access to all ap, including the lost ap. Players without access to that would have a lower total, which is the point. I don't know the exact number bc it is not important to me, nor it is important to my point. But it is discoverable if you are so inclined . . .I'll re-post the meaning of infinite:

limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.

Can you measure/calculate the upper limit of the achievement point total? Is there a limit to the achievement point total? Do share it. Otherwise by the definition of the word, it's infinite.I can, yes. And perhaps more to the point, you can also. It is of no interest to me, so I choose not to. It disproves your argument, so you choose not to. So it's probably in your best interest to stop bringing it up, but it costs me nothing if you wish to continue . . .

I have every confidence that ep 3 will be release and will have cheeves.

Then there is no problem here. The achievement point influx won't stop, therefore all achievement rewards are -still- available to all players.As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes. But that is likely years away, if ever. I prefer a more active solution . . .

As I am speaking of the present, I need no proof about the future . . .

You do. so where is it? Present is irrelevant when discussing achievement rewards.I don't. My position holds true in the future until the rewards are removed from the track, but it also holds true in the present, which is the only time it matters really, as tomorrow is promised to no one . . .

They would have access to them to do at their leisure, just like all the other cheeves in the game they haven't done yet . . .

And? That doesn't mean they'd finish them so it's besides the point.The lost access is the entire point, actually :pAnd since we've established that episode 3 will provide achievements, you said it yourself, there is no problem with achievement rewards, therefore no need to remove the unique rewards from them.If only saying it could make it so :(

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@"Gop.8713" said:I can, yes. And perhaps more to the point, you can also.

Since you can calculate the achievement point limit, I'm waiting for you to tell us what will the maximum number of AP will be in 2025. Or 2030. Or tell us the specific date and time when the game will die, and the achievement point total it will have at that point.

As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes.

As long as AP are added to the game, without removing rewards, all is fine since everyone will earn all the unique rewards.

I don't.You do so don't dodge the question, where is your proof?

The lost access is the entire point, actually :p

Only assuming that player would've finished those "missing AP", which is a proven fact that very few players would. So there is no actual point there.

If only saying it could make it so :(

Saying that they need to remove the unique rewards doesn't mean they should, or that there is a valid reason to. You haven't provided any valid reason why they should remove the unique rewards yet. Perhaps you should re-think your argumentation and give one.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:I can, yes. And perhaps more to the point, you can also.

Since you can calculate the achievement point limit, I'm waiting for you to tell us what will the maximum number of AP will be in 2025. Or 2030. Or tell us the specific date and time when the game will die, and the achievement point total it will have at that point.When 2025 and 2030 are the present, we will know, just as we know the present answer now, in 2020 . . .

As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes.

As long as AP are added to the game, without removing rewards, all is fine since everyone will earn all the unique rewards.Without removing the unique rewards, the gap will never be covered, unless anet introduces ap that only ppl missing ap can get, which I think is a worse idea since it focuses on the ap rather than the rewards . . .

I don't.You do so don't dodge the question, where is your proof?I don't. I'm discussing a present solution to a present problem. The only way the future enters into it is if we'd rather wait to solve the problem, which I wouldn't . . .The lost access is the entire point, actually :p

Only assuming that player would've finished those "missing AP", which is a proven fact that very few players would. So there is no actual point there.No, it's the access. A player who has access can finish at their leisure, a player without access can never finish . . .

If only saying it could make it so :(

Saying that they need to remove the unique rewards doesn't mean they should, or that there is a valid reason to. You haven't provided any valid reason why they should remove the unique rewards yet. Perhaps you should re-think your argumentation and give one.I have. I've also pointed out that though my solution is the best currently available it almost certainly isn't the best one anyone can come up with. Hopefully someone can come up with a better one, but it certainly won't be someone who invests so much of their energy into pretending the problem doesn't exist . . .

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@Gop.8713 said:When 2025 and 2030 are the present, we will know, just as we know the present answer now, in 2020 . . .

I expect a number since you said you can calculate it. If you need to wait until 2025 or 2030 then it means you don't know the limit of achievement points. As they don't really have one. How do you call that which has no limit?

Without removing the unique rewards, the gap will never be covered

The gap won't be covered, but the unique rewards will be acquired. No need to actually close that gap if you only want the rewards. Now they could add different ways, like the one proposed to increase the daily cap equal to the missing AP, to cover that gap, if that number is important.

I don't.

You do because it's a future problem and not one that exists today. So stop dodging/trolling and give your proof already.

No, it's the access. A player who has access can finish at their leisure, a player without access can never finish . . .

That's still assuming they'd finish it in the first place if they had access, which, as a fact, is not really true. Access is rather irrelevant here.

I have.

You haven't so far given a valid reason.

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