Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Achievement Point Discussion


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 312
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@"Gop.8713" said:

And? That doesn't mean they'd finish them so it's besides the point.The lost access is the entire point, actually :pIn short, you are complaining about a theoretical problem that has next to no
practical
impact on the game. And to fix that problem, you want to introduce a "solution" that
has
a significant negative practical impact.

You might want to rethink your priorities.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So I skipped about half of the thread since it was giving me a headache, seeing folks offer reasonable suggestions then having them replied to sentence by sentence, removing all logic and coherency.

I desperately need a tldr. Here is what I'm taking from this:Gop states that the armor skin rewards should be removed from the ap reward track because not all ap's in the past are possible to still receive, and almost everyone else is pointing out that eventually the rewards will be achievable?

The only way in which I can see his/her point being at all valid is under these conditions: the game ceases to award ap, AND he/she currently has every single achievement completed AND he/she was unable to get the points that were in the past.

If any of these are false(and I'm assuming at least the first one is) then the only problem is the one felt(legitimate) by those who have missed any ap's or other reward. I missed the tournament pvp title last week, because I didn't know about it. I missed all the season 1 things because I didn't yet play the game. I missed several festivals for the same reason. I don't have the special celebration hat. I didn't pay for the deluxe edition and have those neat shinies. Yep, I am missing a lot, and if I dwelt overly long on them I probably would feel glum and miffed and that this is a problem that should be fixed. I am entitled to have a chance at getting all these things I missed!

But life is life, and there are a lot of other things I've missed out on that I would rather not have. My only granddaughter was born while my daughter was in the Air Force and I didn't have the money to fly out to see them. I didn't get to see them until the little one was 8 months old. I missed her first words, first smile. The visit was only a week, I missed her first steps. I regret these things; they are a problem to me, and it will never be "fixed". I think I can deal with waiting a year to get some missing achievement points.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gop.8713 said:When 2025 and 2030 are the present, we will know, just as we know the present answer now, in 2020 . . .

I expect a number since you said you can calculate it. If you need to wait until 2025 or 2030 then it means you don't know the limit of achievement points. As they don't really have one. How do you call that which has no limit?You can also calculate it. Given other posts of yours I've read I suspect you've already done so. Given your refusal to accept facts, I choose not to calculate it for you as I can only conclude from your refusal that you are simply seeking another fact to ignore, and I am not interested in giving you one. If it is important to you, you are perfectly capable of providing the information you are asking me for . . .

Without removing the unique rewards, the gap will never be covered

The gap won't be covered, but the unique rewards will be acquired. No need to actually close that gap if you only want the rewards.This is only true once future rewards are removed. That is, once there are no rewards offered to players that have exceeded the max number of ap minus the lost ap . . .Now they could add different ways, like the one proposed to increase the daily cap equal to the missing AP, to cover that gap, if that number is important.I don' t like this idea precisely bc it makes it all about the number of ap, which I do not see as desirable. But if more ppl like this solution then great, it would also solve the problem . . .

I don't.

You do because it's a future problem and not one that exists today. So stop dodging/trolling and give your proof already.Stop ignoring the problem and respond to it. If the problem didn't exist, the solution you just posed wouldn't address it lol . . .

No, it's the access. A player who has access can finish at their leisure, a player without access can never finish . . .

That's still assuming they'd finish it in the first place if they had access, which, as a fact, is not really true. Access is rather irrelevant here.As access is the core of the issue, your inability to see its relevance might be why you are struggling to understand the problem . . .

I have.

You haven't so far given a valid reason.Have so :p

As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes. But that is likely years away, if ever. I prefer a more active solution . . .

I thought 'removing the rewards'
was
the solution offered. What is this 'more active solution'?

Our confused fellow player is asserting that as long as ap continues to be introduced, all rewards will eventually be attainable by all players in time. What you quoted above is my response that his point is true, so long as unique rewards are eventually removed and players missing ap are able to catch up to the rewards obtained by players who are not missing ap, which could eventually happen, we don't know. The more active solution would be removing them earlier than at some indefinite time in the future. Like now, for example . . .

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

And? That doesn't mean they'd finish them so it's besides the point.The lost access is the entire point, actually :pIn short, you are complaining about a theoretical problem that has next to no
practical
impact on the game. And to fix that problem, you want to introduce a "solution" that
has
a significant negative practical impact.

You might want to rethink your priorities.

I gave you the specific and detailed example you requested, and that's the best you can do by way of reply? It's almost like one of us isn't trying . . .

@Etria.3642 said:I desperately need a tldr.

  • Content was lost, that loss is regrettable, and the loss cannot be remedied. I think this is all that can be said that is agreed upon by everyone . . .
  • The problem being complained of here is that the missing ap is preventing most players from advancing as far along the track as they could if that ap was available . . .
  • I pointed out that since we can't repair the loss we could try addressing the consequences of the loss instead, specifically the rewards that are available to those who have the lost ap but not to those that don't . . .
  • I pointed out that the best way to do this is to remove the unique rewards from the track, as the gap can never be closed by the introduction of more ap, it only changes which specific rewards are covered by the gap created by the missing ap. I also pointed out this wasn't a great solution and hoped someone could do better . . .
  • Several posters began to insist that this doesn't really exist, which requires a willful ignorance of the point previous to this one. This willful ignorance is something I have not been able to understand and has created the majority of the less desirable parts of the thread . . .

I think I can deal with waiting a year to get some missing achievement points.You never will though. They will be just as unobtainable in a year as they are today. It's also worth noting that thinking about a problem like this from your personal perspective -- or from the perspective of any individual player -- is never going to be terribly helpful. It's better to consider it in the abstract. Content was lost, it resulted in some ap being lost, which has created this gap we can't close or cover. How do we best address this? Work the problem not the ppl . . .

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:You can also calculate it. Given other posts of yours I've read I suspect you've already done so. Given your refusal to accept facts, I choose not to calculate it for you as I can only conclude from your refusal that you are simply seeking another fact to ignore, and I am not interested in giving you one. If it is important to you, you are perfectly capable of providing the information you are asking me for . . .

So we got another word you don't know the meaning of. Fact doesn't mean what you come up with, it's slightly different. Your inability to answer the question speaks wonders, resorting to recycling, probably just want a thread bump.

This is only true once future rewards are removed. That is, once there are no rewards offered to players that have exceeded the max number of ap minus the lost ap . . .Recycling again. I will answer with what you quoted since it remains the answer:The gap won't be covered, but the unique rewards will be acquired. No need to actually close that gap if you only want the rewards.I can already see yours. We are in a cycle now, or rather have been for a while.

I don' t like this idea precisely bc it makes it all about the number of apRemoving unique rewards is also all about the number of AP, since the rewards are available (see above)

As access is the core of the issue, your inability to see its relevance might be why you are struggling to understand the problem . . .Everyone has access to a Ferrari, but not many have enough money to actually buy one, but it's there, waiting to be bought by those that do have the money. Access means nothing if it's a proven fact that those without it, wouldn't use it anyway.

I have.You haven't so far given a valid reason.Have so :pWhere? You mean those that were already proven false and never entered a never ending cycle?
Link to post
Share on other sites

So, it is believed that ArenaNet will not be aware beforehand when the game will be going into maintenance mode or shutting down? That they won't address the issue at that time? Of course, it would only need be address if it was maintenance mode, of course.

It's too bad the Devs have never, ever spoken about any missing APs issues. I'm guessing they don't really find it concerning...at this point in time, as no player, missing APs or not, could attain all known rewards.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:
As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes. But that is likely years away, if ever. I prefer a more active solution . . .

I thought 'removing the rewards'
was
the solution offered. What is this 'more active solution'?

Our confused fellow player is asserting that as long as ap continues to be introduced, all rewards will eventually be attainable by all players in time. What you quoted above is my response that his point is true, so long as unique rewards are eventually removed and players missing ap are able to catch up to the rewards obtained by players who are not missing ap, which could eventually happen, we don't know. The more active solution would be removing them earlier than at some indefinite time in the future. Like now, for example . . .The more active solution
now
(instead of just stopping creating new uniques when Anet finally decides they will be switching into maintenance mode, which would be the sane choice) would cause everyone close to the top in AP to no longer have any need to pursue APs, because they would never be able to obtain any new unique rewards.Notice, that it would not be balanced with creating positive incentives in anyone else (including the theoretical players that have all Aps except for the LS1 ones), because people with lower AP values would still be in the exact situation they already are. After all, it's not like they would be able to gain anything by the change you proposed. They would still not be able to get those unique rewards - not now, not in the future.

At this moment it seems to me that you are campaigning not to fit some perceived inequality, but against the very idea of APs and AP reward track. If so, you might want to use arguments towards that, not hide it behind "fixing" (but not really) some imaginary problems.

@Gop.8713 said:

And? That doesn't mean they'd finish them so it's besides the point.The lost access is the entire point, actually :pIn short, you are complaining about a theoretical problem that has next to no
practical
impact on the game. And to fix that problem, you want to introduce a "solution" that
has
a significant negative practical impact.

You might want to rethink your priorities.

I gave you the specific and detailed example you requested, and that's the best you can do by way of reply? It's almost like one of us isn't trying . . .I do remember asking you to show me a specific player and a specific reward, not a theoretical construction. You only imagine there's a problem, but can't even find a single player this problem applies to. That's because it mainly exists within your own mind - it has next to zero practical impact on
reality
.
Link to post
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gop.8713 said:You can also calculate it. Given other posts of yours I've read I suspect you've already done so. Given your refusal to accept facts, I choose not to calculate it for you as I can only conclude from your refusal that you are simply seeking another fact to ignore, and I am not interested in giving you one. If it is important to you, you are perfectly capable of providing the information you are asking me for . . .

So we got another word you don't know the meaning of. Fact doesn't mean what you come up with, it's slightly different. Your inability to answer the question speaks wonders, resorting to recycling, probably just want a thread bump.What then does your refusal to provide the same information tell us, to your mind . . ?

This is only true once future rewards are removed. That is, once there are no rewards offered to players that have exceeded the max number of ap minus the lost ap . . .Recycling again. I will answer with what you quoted since it remains the answer:That's bc the facts haven't changed. I'll keep pointing them out to you for as long as you choose to pretend they aren't there. Again, it costs me nothing . . .The gap won't be covered, but the unique rewards will be acquired. No need to actually close that gap if you only want the rewards.I can already see yours. We are in a cycle now, or rather have been for a while.Yes. I present reality, you deny it, and so on. But it's okay. I have faith that you'll come around. And if I'm wrong, it costs me nothing . . .I don' t like this idea precisely bc it makes it all about the number of apRemoving unique rewards is also all about the number of AP, since the rewards are available (see above)Removing the unique rewards doesn't affect anyone's ap . . .As access is the core of the issue, your inability to see its relevance might be why you are struggling to understand the problem . . .Everyone has access to a Ferrari, but not many have enough money to actually buy one, but it's there, waiting to be bought by those that do have the money. Access means nothing if it's a proven fact that those without it, wouldn't use it anyway.This is a bizarre analogy. There is no evidence that players would avoid the ap if it was available, as ap costs nothing. A more appropriate representation of your position would be that if someone suffocates, it must be bc they didn't want to breathe, as plenty of air is available . . .

I have.You haven't so far given a valid reason.Have so :pWhere? You mean those that were already proven false and never entered a never ending cycle?Yes, I have repeatedly pointed out the current costs of the missing ap. You yourself forgot that you were trying to pretend they didn't exist and alluded to them in presenting an alternative solution. Which I certainly applaud you for, the first useful post in the thread in some time . . .@Astralporing.1957 said:@Gop.8713 said:@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:
As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes. But that is likely years away, if ever. I prefer a more active solution . . .

I thought 'removing the rewards'
was
the solution offered. What is this 'more active solution'?

Our confused fellow player is asserting that as long as ap continues to be introduced, all rewards will eventually be attainable by all players in time. What you quoted above is my response that his point is true, so long as unique rewards are eventually removed and players missing ap are able to catch up to the rewards obtained by players who are not missing ap, which could eventually happen, we don't know. The more active solution would be removing them earlier than at some indefinite time in the future. Like now, for example . . .The more active solution
now
(instead of just stopping creating new uniques when Anet finally decides they will be switching into maintenance mode, which would be the sane choice) would cause everyone close to the top in AP to no longer have any need to pursue APs, because they would never be able to obtain any new unique rewards.If you agree this solves the problem, I don't see the advantage in delay. I would also be disappointed to learn that players only play to pursue rewards :/Notice, that it would not be balanced with creating positive incentives in anyone else (including the theoretical players that have all Aps except for the LS1 ones), because people with lower AP values would still be in the exact situation they already are. After all, it's not like they would be able to gain anything by the change you proposed. They would still not be able to get those unique rewards - not now, not in the future.This is just a misunderstanding of the proposed solution. I'm not suggesting that they should pull the rewards that already exist, that would be unnecessarily destructive. I've repeatedly spoken to mitigating the damage of the change, which would ofc include continuing to provide existing rewards and transferring removed rewards to some other avenue, as already discussed . . .At this moment it seems to me that you are campaigning not to fit some perceived inequality, but against the very idea of APs and AP reward track. If so, you might want to use arguments towards that, not hide it behind "fixing" (but not really) some imaginary problems.No, I like ap, as I've mentioned. I find it a useful guide in exploring new content . . .

@Gop.8713 said:

And? That doesn't mean they'd finish them so it's besides the point.The lost access is the entire point, actually :pIn short, you are complaining about a theoretical problem that has next to no
practical
impact on the game. And to fix that problem, you want to introduce a "solution" that
has
a significant negative practical impact.

You might want to rethink your priorities.

I gave you the specific and detailed example you requested, and that's the best you can do by way of reply? It's almost like one of us isn't trying . . .I do remember asking you to show me a specific player and a specific reward, not a theoretical construction. You only imagine there's a problem, but can't even find a single player this problem applies to. That's because it mainly exists within your own mind - it has next to zero practical impact on
reality
.

Oh, I thought you asked bc you wanted to understand the problem, not find another reason to ignore it. You may assume the example is a specific rl player if it is important to you to do so. It may very well be, for all you know . . .
Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Gop.8713" said:What then does your refusal to provide the same information tell us, to your mind . . ?

I already provided the information required, that a limit of achievement points doesn't exist, therefore achievement points are limitless until proven otherwise.

finite/ˈfʌɪnʌɪt/adjective1.limited in size or extent."every computer has a finite amount of memory"

Since the achievement point total cannot be measured, it has no limit, no size and no extent, therefore it's infinite. For all intends and purposes the game might go on forever, unless of course you can provide solid evidence to the contrary.

This is a bizarre analogy. There is no evidence that players would avoid the ap if it was available, as ap costs nothing. A more appropriate representation of your position would be that if someone suffocates, it must be bc they didn't want to breathe, as plenty of air is available . . .

There is lots of evidence to support that players do avoid AP not sure how you cannot see them. Take a look at the achievement point calculations, I'll remind you that 90% of the game's accounts have less than 2870 AP, also the top 1000 accounts on the leaderboards begin at 36437 AP, meaning they are barely affected by the missing AP as they have a few AP to get first, since the current maximum (excluding the ~6k missing AP) is at ~37k. but that's assuming they don't have any of those missing AP in the first place, otherwise they have more AP to get first before being affected.

You are still assuming that AP that is there will be acquired by players, and the only reason players don't have the missing AP is because it's missing, but it's a fact that's false. Even if that missing AP existed, players wouldn't have them, that's already proven. That ap cost nothing is irrelevant.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Gop.8713" said:This is a bizarre analogy. There is no evidence that players would avoid the ap if it was available, as ap costs nothing.Quite the opposite. there's ton of evidence that many players would not take an effort to pick up a free AP if it was laying in front of them, and a majority would not go too far out of their way in order to get it. Remember, that most players didn't even obtain all of the most easily available Aps - and that a lot of LS1 APs definitely weren't in the "easily obtainable" category.

The more active solution
now
(instead of just stopping creating new uniques when Anet finally decides they will be switching into maintenance mode, which would be the sane choice) would cause everyone close to the top in AP to no longer have any need to pursue APs, because they would never be able to obtain any new unique rewards.If you agree this solves the problem, I don't see the advantage in delay. I would also be disappointed to learn that players only play to pursue rewards :/Well, the delay would let you get away without
having to dismantle the whole AP rewards system
. Don;t you think that's an advantage enough?

Notice, that it would not be balanced with creating positive incentives in anyone else (including the theoretical players that have all APs except for the LS1 ones), because people with lower AP values would still be in the exact situation they already are. After all, it's not like they would be able to gain anything by the change you proposed. They would still not be able to get those unique rewards - not now, not in the future.This is just a misunderstanding of the proposed solution. I'm not suggesting that they should pull the rewards that already exist, that would be unnecessarily destructive. I've repeatedly spoken to mitigating the damage of the change, which would ofc include continuing to provide existing rewards and transferring removed rewards to some other avenue, as already discussed . . .First, you want to remove all the rewards that the players without missing APs cannot currently reach. That, by necessity, would include rewards the players with those APs
can
reach. Rewards, that some players
have already obtained
.Second, the rewards you want to remove currently are an incentive for many players to pursue APs. If you remove those rewards from AP track, that incentive will be lost. Notice, that this does include both the players with and without the missing historical APs.Third, you do not replace that lost incentive with anything else.

Currently, if you want a hellfire/radiant armor set, or hellfire/radiant backpack, you can work on our APs, and you know that obtaining those are just amatter of time. Even if you don't have the missing historical APs, those rewards are not completely beyond your reach - they will simply require some time to obtain.After your "fix", there would be no way to obtain those rewards through AP track. None whatsoever. You want hellfire/radiant backpacks? You won't get it. You want both radiant and hellfire armor sets? Sorry, you can obtain only one.(by the way, i am curious, because i have noticed you never actually said anything about it - which rewards specifically you want to remove from AP reward track?)

Reintroducing those rewards through "some other avenues" is not going to help. After all, someone that was perfectly fine with obtaining them through slowly grinding APs might not be fine with them being obtainable through, for example, SPvP tournament. Well, unless, of course, you intend to take something that was there to reward you for dedication to the game, and requires years of heavy work and just make it easily available for everyone. Yeah, that would definitely work fine [/sarcasm]

At this moment it seems to me that you are campaigning not to fit some perceived inequality, but against the very idea of APs and AP reward track. If so, you might want to use arguments towards that, not hide it behind "fixing" (but not really) some imaginary problems.No, I like ap, as I've mentioned. I find it a useful guide in exploring new content . . .APs on their own, maybe. You don;t seem to be very fond of the
AP rewards track
however. In fact, you seem to go out of your way to destroy the core of that system.

Oh, I thought you asked bc you wanted to understand the problem, not find another reason to ignore it. You may assume the example is a specific rl player if it is important to you to do so. It may very well be, for all you know . . .No, i asked because i wanted to point out to you, that, for something that you claim is a common problem that affects everyone, it's surprisingly hard to find any actual person that truly is affected by it. I mean, you had to create fictional people in order to justify it being a problem.

It is a problem that exists mainly within your imagination, and only there. there are next to no real players that are truly affected by it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:What then does your refusal to provide the same information tell us, to your mind . . ?

I already provided the information required, that a limit of achievement points doesn't exist, therefore achievement points are limitless until proven otherwise.

finite/ˈfʌɪnʌɪt/adjective1.limited in size or extent."every computer has a finite amount of memory"

Since the achievement point total cannot be measured, it has no limit, no size and no extent, therefore it's infinite. For all intends and purposes the game might go on forever, unless of course you can provide solid evidence to the contrary.If this were true, all rewards would be available, and we have established they are not. You recognized this problem when you addressed selectively adding ap back into the game for players who were missing the lost ap, it is incongruous that you refuse to recognize it in any other context . . .

This is a bizarre analogy. There is no evidence that players would avoid the ap if it was available, as ap costs nothing. A more appropriate representation of your position would be that if someone suffocates, it must be bc they didn't want to breathe, as plenty of air is available . . .

There is lots of evidence to support that players
do
avoid AP not sure how you cannot see them. Take a look at the achievement point calculations, I'll remind you that 90% of the game's accounts have less than 2870 AP, also the top 1000 accounts on the leaderboards begin at 36437 AP, meaning they are barely affected by the missing AP as they have a few AP to get first, since the current maximum (excluding the ~6k missing AP) is at ~37k. but that's assuming they don't have any of those missing AP in the first place, otherwise they have more AP to get first before being affected.

You are still assuming that AP that is there will be acquired by players, and the only reason players don't have the missing AP is because it's missing, but it's a fact that's false. Even if that missing AP existed, players wouldn't have them, that's already proven. That ap cost nothing is irrelevant.You're assuming players would not pursue the lost ap, if available, unless they had already acquired all other ap. There is no reason to make that assumption . . .@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:This is a bizarre analogy. There is no evidence that players would avoid the ap if it was available, as ap costs nothing.Quite the opposite. there's ton of evidence that many players would not take an effort to pick up a free AP if it was laying in front of them, and a majority would not go too far out of their way in order to get it. Remember, that most players didn't even obtain all of the most easily available Aps - and that a lot of LS1 APs definitely
weren't
in the "easily obtainable" category.And yet somehow, everyone seems to have ap. I just can't figure it . . .

The more active solution
now
(instead of just stopping creating new uniques when Anet finally decides they will be switching into maintenance mode, which would be the sane choice) would cause everyone close to the top in AP to no longer have any need to pursue APs, because they would never be able to obtain any new unique rewards.If you agree this solves the problem, I don't see the advantage in delay. I would also be disappointed to learn that players only play to pursue rewards :/Well, the delay would let you get away without
having to dismantle the whole AP rewards system
. Don;t you think that's an advantage enough?Fortunate then that I choose to mitigate the effects of the minor change to the system that I proposed. It is odd to me that on the one hand you insist that players care so little about ap that they wouldn't 'pick it up if it was laying in front of them' while on the other describe the removal of unique rewards as catastrophic. It's almost as if you have a conclusion you would like to reach, and are searching for reasons to believe it is true . . .Notice, that it would not be balanced with creating positive incentives in anyone else (including the theoretical players that have all APs except for the LS1 ones), because people with lower AP values would still be in the exact situation they already are. After all, it's not like they would be able to gain anything by the change you proposed. They would still not be able to get those unique rewards - not now, not in the future.This is just a misunderstanding of the proposed solution. I'm not suggesting that they should pull the rewards that already exist, that would be unnecessarily destructive. I've repeatedly spoken to mitigating the damage of the change, which would ofc include continuing to provide existing rewards and transferring removed rewards to some other avenue, as already discussed . . .First, you want to remove all the rewards that the players without missing APs cannot currently reach. That, by necessity, would include rewards the players with those APs
can
reach. Rewards, that some players
have already obtained
.No. Removing those rewards would not improve the the situation and I never suggested that. As already discussed, removing the rewards can happen at any point. Most posters seem to favor removing the rewards after all that have currently been announced/datamined have been unlocked, at the earliest. That seems arbitrary to me. I favor removing everything that hasn't been unlocked rn, which solves the problem sooner . . .Second, the rewards you want to remove currently are an incentive for many players to pursue APs. If you remove those rewards from AP track, that incentive will be lost. Notice, that this does include both the players with and without the missing historical APs.I would very much like for you to reconcile how players don't care about ap with how now 'many' players care about ap. I am also curious as to why you would dismiss concerns about players missing all the rewards from the lost ap yet defend the few players on the outer fringe of the issue at the top end of the current ap totals. It seems a very specific group of players you are trying to protect, at the expense of everyone else . . .Third, you do not replace that lost incentive with anything else.I do not, nor do I think it is important to do so. But if you do, feel free to make suggestions. More ideas are better than fewer . . .Currently, if you want a hellfire/radiant armor set, or hellfire/radiant backpack, you can work on our APs, and you know that obtaining those are just amatter of time. Even if you don't have the missing historical APs, those rewards are not completely beyond your reach - they will simply require some time to obtain.After your "fix", there would be
no
way to obtain those rewards through AP track. None whatsoever. You want hellfire/radiant backpacks? You won't get it. You want both radiant and hellfire armor sets? Sorry, you can obtain only one.This is not true. I have repeated spoken of transferring the rewards to equitably obtainable means. I am curious as to why you choose to ignore that . . .(by the way, i am curious, because i have noticed you never actually said anything about it - which rewards specifically you want to remove from AP reward track?)As mentioned previously, I think the best option would be to remove all rewards that have not yet been unlocked . . .Reintroducing those rewards through "some other avenues" is not going to help.So you did know I had suggested that. It makes your position all the more curious, that you would refute it yourself two sentences after you state it . . .After all, someone that was perfectly fine with obtaining them through slowly grinding APs might not be fine with them being obtainable through, for example, SPvP tournament. Well, unless, of course, you intend to take something that was there to reward you for dedication to the game, and requires years of heavy work and just make it easily available for everyone. Yeah, that would definitely work fine [/sarcasm]And players who are not fine knowing they will always be locked out of roughly a year's worth of rewards, on average, might prefer a more equitable avenue . . .At this moment it seems to me that you are campaigning not to fit some perceived inequality, but against the very idea of APs and AP reward track. If so, you might want to use arguments towards that, not hide it behind "fixing" (but not really) some imaginary problems.No, I like ap, as I've mentioned. I find it a useful guide in exploring new content . . .APs on their own, maybe. You don;t seem to be very fond of the
AP rewards track
however. In fact, you seem to go out of your way to destroy the core of that system.I think the track would be better if it started to repeat, given the inequitable availability of ap. I do not believe that would destroy it. And you selectively believe that no one cares about ap anyway, so what's it to you . . ?Oh, I thought you asked bc you wanted to understand the problem, not find another reason to ignore it. You may assume the example is a specific rl player if it is important to you to do so. It may very well be, for all you know . . .No, i asked because i wanted to point out to you, that, for something that you claim is a common problem that affects everyone, it's surprisingly hard to find any actual person that truly is affected by it. I mean, you had to create fictional people in order to justify it being a problem.

It is a problem that exists mainly within your imagination, and only there. there are next to no real players that are truly affected by it.

The vast majority of players are affected. You have established that you are affected. I know I am affected. I gave you a specific example of an affected player that you have chosen to fictionalize as it cannot fit your narrative, in much the same way that you selectively prioritize ap depending on which players you have decided matter. Your energy would be better spent trying to find a solution . . .

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Thus, this 'debate' really means nothing.

On the contrary, we started with one solution, which was to do nothing. We now have four proposals, of which I still favor mine but at least options are available. I count that as significant progress . . .

@Cuks.8241 said:At this point I would say don't feed the troll. Good job though.

I really don't think they're trolling. They've made some reluctant breakthroughs here and there, they're just entrenched in their positions and struggle to adapt when their mistakes are proven . . .

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Gop.8713" said:If this were true, all rewards would be available, and we have established they are not.

It's quite the opposite of what you are saying, IF we've reached the limit of achievement points then yes some rewards would be unavailable, based on how abruptly the game ends. If the game dies a sudden death, it's quite possible that some rewards will become unavailable, but currently there is no reward that is not available to players, given how the achievement flow hasn't stopped. At least to my knowledge, Episode 3 is bound to bring us more AP.

You're assuming players would not pursue the lost ap, if available, unless they had already acquired all other ap. There is no reason to make that assumption . . .

You missed the key word "affected". Let's take a player that has 4.5k AP, they are missing 500 AP to get the 5k reward. Are they affected by the "missing AP"? No, they have another 35k AP to go for. They can't "complain" they can't get the 5k reward because of the "missing AP" when there are so many AP still available to them to get. There is no assumption there and you can see how omitting one word can make such a difference.

I make no assumptions, I provide evidence, you are the one making the assumptions that if the missing AP existed, players would go for them. When it's a proven fact that they wouldn't.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:You're assuming players would not pursue the lost ap, if available, unless they had already acquired all other ap. There is no reason to make that assumption . . .No, he's assuming that most players would not pursue APs, period. And there's alot of reasons to make that assumptions - like you have been told many times over, most players do not pursue still available APs from other, but similar, sources (like other LS chapters, for example). There's absolutely no reason to assume they would treat LS1 any different if it was available.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Quite the opposite. there's ton of evidence that many players would not take an effort to pick up a free AP if it was laying in front of them, and a majority would not go too far out of their way in order to get it. Remember, that most players didn't even obtain all of the most easily available Aps - and that a lot of LS1 APs definitely
weren't
in the "easily obtainable" category.And yet somehow, everyone seems to have ap. I just can't figure it . . .That's the point - most players
do not
have much AP. Because they either aren't interested, or not willing to put any effort to pursue them. People that pursue AP are less than 10% of the entire playerbase. People that have a lot of APs are around
1%
(or much less, depending on what you understand by "a lot") of entire playerbase. People that have a lot of APs, but
do not
have any APs from LS1? That's just a fraction of that 1%. People that have a lot of APs, are still active ,
do not
have any APs from LS1, and think that is a problem? You can probably count them on both hands.

If you agree this solves the problem, I don't see the advantage in delay. I would also be disappointed to learn that players only play to pursue rewards :/Well, the delay would let you get away without
having to dismantle the whole AP rewards system
. Don't you think that's an advantage enough?Fortunate then that I choose to mitigate the effects of the minor change to the system that I proposed.Unfortunate, though, that the "mitigation" you speak of does nothing for the people that care about the system, because it doesn't affect any single thing from your "fix" that would damage it.

It is odd to me that on the one hand you insist that players care so little about ap that they wouldn't 'pick it up if it was laying in front of them' while on the other describe the removal of unique rewards as catastrophic.Different players. Notice, though, that your fix is catastrophic for those that care, but is completely irrelevant for those that do not care. In such a case, for whom that fix is for? For people that would not even notice anything has changed?Or do you simply want to make the unique rewards from reward track accessible by other means, because you think access to them is currently too restricted? If so, that is a completely separate discussion, and you should probably be more honest about it.

It's almost as if you have a conclusion you would like to reach, and are searching for reasons to believe it is true . . .I could say the same about you.

I would very much like for you to reconcile how players don't care about ap with how now 'many' players care about ap. I am also curious as to why you would dismiss concerns about players missing all the rewards from the lost ap yet defend the few players on the outer fringe of the issue at the top end of the current ap totals.Because the first group doesn't care about the APs, but the other group does.

It seems a very specific group of players you are trying to protect, at the expense of everyone else . . .Yes, precisely. I am trying to protect players that actually
use
the system, at the "expense" of players that do not care about it (and so, won't even notice that "expense"). You want to do the exact opposite - help the players that would not care about it, at the expense of those that would care.

Currently, if you want a hellfire/radiant armor set, or hellfire/radiant backpack, you can work on our APs, and you know that obtaining those are just amatter of time. Even if you don't have the missing historical APs, those rewards are not completely beyond your reach - they will simply require some time to obtain.After your "fix", there would be
no
way to obtain those rewards through AP track. None whatsoever. You want hellfire/radiant backpacks? You won't get it. You want both radiant and hellfire armor sets? Sorry, you can obtain only one.This is not true. I have repeated spoken of transferring the rewards to equitably obtainable means. I am curious as to why you choose to ignore that . . .First, i said "through AP track". So, if someone pursues APs in order to obtain hellfire armor, and that armor were to be removed from AP reward track, that person would lose that incentive to work on obtaining AP. Moreover, all the work that person has done so far in pursuit of that goal would be lost.

Second, there are no "equitably obtainable means". "equity" would require for the new system to reward the players for the very same things it is rewarding them now (so, work spent on obtaining APs), and to a similar degree. No such system other than AP track exists. If the new system would offer the items as rewards for something else, the items could no longer be called "equitably obtainable" compared to the current system.

These are items that are meant for specific group of players, and reward a specific playstyle. You want to take them away from those players, and offer them to some other group of players, rewarding completely different playstyle. That creates a situation where players that are close to obtaining said items now (say, lack only the next chapter's AP to get one) would suddenly find themselves in a situation where to pursue them they'd have to start completely afresh, with all their years of work put into it completely wasted. And with high possibility that the new system would put them at a disadvantage compared to some players that currently never even bothered to work on those rewards at all, but in the new system will find themselves in a preferred position to obtain them.

Basically, you are just using big words like "equity" to mask the fact that you want to give those rewards to players that didn't work for them. And ignore the work of those that did put a lot of effort into it already. This does not sound to me like "fair" or "just" solution at all.

(by the way, i am curious, because i have noticed you never actually said anything about it - which rewards specifically you want to remove from AP reward track?)As mentioned previously, I think the best option would be to remove all rewards that have not yet been unlocked . . .So, basically, you want for people on top of AP leaderboards to have no unique rewards to pursue anymore.

Reintroducing those rewards through "some other avenues" is not going to help.So you did know I had suggested that. It makes your position all the more curious, that you would refute it yourself two sentences after you state it . . .Yes, i did. And, as i have explained above, this changes absolutely nothing about what i said before. Reintroducing those rewards through "some other avenues" is not going to minimize the damage removing them from AP track will cause to
that
system.

After all, someone that was perfectly fine with obtaining them through slowly grinding APs might not be fine with them being obtainable through, for example, SPvP tournament. Well, unless, of course, you intend to take something that was there to reward you for dedication to the game, and requires years of heavy work and just make it easily available for everyone. Yeah, that would definitely work fine [/sarcasm]And players who are not fine knowing they will always be locked out of roughly a year's worth of rewards, on average, might prefer a more equitable avenue . . .You mean, they would want the rewards to be obtainable with less effort. Duly noted.

By the way, why are you not raging about birthday present rewards? After all, someone that started playing 2 years late will get those rewards 2 years later than those that played from the beginning. They will never be able to catch up. So, the very exact situation you claim you want to fix. How is it any different?

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:You continue to ignore the present. Deal with the present, or don't, it's not my concern. Your failings are apparent . . .

The present is irrelevant. The question was the achievement reward availability to all players. As long as the influx of Achievement Points continues then all rewards remain available. Your failings are apparent . . .

Let's say they would run the story, if the story was available, as they run other stories. If it was available, as the other stories are, they would receive ap from that story.

They don't run the other stories though. If they did run ALL the stories, they'd have a considerably higher AP total just by the story alone. So try again.Further: Season 1 story was very limited and didn't have instances like Season 2 and onward, so it didn't really have story achievements.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"hellsqueen.3045" said:

Achievement Points are cool, they allow you to get a point of recognition for doing something beyond what the regular goal is. EG. Killing a boss without getting hit by certain abilities, etc.You are rewarded for doing more than the bare minimum.Which is why I cannot agree that it should somehow be linked to loyalty. That's what character birthday's are for.

You're missing the point of AP. AP exist to keep people playing. Therefore, both longevity and redoing content to do "more than the bare minimum" fall within their design intent.

Achievements are about rewarding you for going out of your way to do something extra.Which is why I cannot understand why doing dailies can reward you so many points per day. I get that it has a cap, but first off that cap is still fairly high and at the end of the day you are still getting 10AP for bare minimum really because you log in, you see some activities and there is a good chance that you were going to do most of those things anyway, maybe just on different maps or whatever.It doesn't take much extra out of you to do your dailies.

Dailies started out as (paraphrasing ANet near launch), "A little extra reward for playing the game regularly." Thus, they fit with the longevity aspect of AP. The cap was put in after the fact. The AP reward track was also put in after the fact.

...

And so what if the LWS1 AP is only a small amount missing, it is still missing when it never should have been and it is part of a bigger picture that LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.

ANet has not reintroduced S1, probably because doing so would take more resources than ANet can commit to it. That means S1 AP are not going to reappear. It's a done deal. Not enough people care about either the story or the AP to make it worth risking the future of the game in a development climate where ANet is already struggling to produce enough content to quiet the gimme more crowd.

It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience. That isn't fair.

At the time (but still after the fact), the player-base told ANet that S1 was a mistake. ANet was trying to produce a living world concept, which conflicted with the drop-in nature of the game they also promoted. It was an experiment that failed. There were enough players around who were excited over the concept of a living world that the attempt probably seemed worthwhile. Calling that attempt "disgraceful" is at best hyperbole, and at worst an indication that you are taking this way too seriously.

Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.

What is a "genuine story focus?" Does WoW qualify? If not, what is the difference between WoW and GW2 that means the former does not qualify and the latter does? For a considerable portion of its lifetime, WoW devs acknowledged that only about 5% of the game's players completed raids. And yet, participating in the full WoW story required players to raid.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gop.8713 said:You continue to ignore the present. Deal with the present, or don't, it's not my concern. Your failings are apparent . . .

The present is irrelevant. The question was the achievement reward availability to all players. As long as the influx of Achievement Points continues then all rewards remain available. Your failings are apparent . . .The present is where the problem exists and will continue to exist so long as rewards continue to be introduced and the lost ap remains lost, as you acknowledged when you proposed solving it by introducing ap available only to those who were missing the lost ap . . .

Let's say they would run the story, if the story was available, as they run other stories. If it was available, as the other stories are, they would receive ap from that story.

They don't run the other stories though.The fifty-two (fifty-three today) thousand accounts is actually the smallest number of accounts that have run any of the stories. And these are efficiency numbers, real numbers would be higher, likely by a significant number . . .If they did run ALL the stories, they'd have a considerably higher AP total just by the story alone. So try again.Further: Season 1 story was very limited and didn't have instances like Season 2 and onward, so it didn't really have story achievements.You're assuming again that players will have all ap from all sources, when the reality is most players only gather their ap incidentally as they move along through the content . . .

I would like to walk back one point though. Upon reflection, I'm not really sure It would be all that cool to have fifty-two thousand fingers . . .

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:So, it is believed that ArenaNet will not be aware beforehand when the game will be going into maintenance mode or shutting down? That they won't address the issue at that time? Of course, it would only need be address if it was maintenance mode, of course.

It's too bad the Devs have never, ever spoken about any missing APs issues. I'm guessing they don't really find it concerning...at this point in time, as no player, missing APs or not, could attain all known rewards.

I think that this point is important. The game seems, to me at least, to be designed so that no player could attain all known rewards. It is not supposed to happen.

Some players chose to not pursue the (now) missing AP. Depriving people of the results of their decisions is not a good thing IMO.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:So, it is believed that ArenaNet will not be aware beforehand when the game will be going into maintenance mode or shutting down? That they won't address the issue at that time? Of course, it would only need be address if it
was
maintenance mode, of course.

It's too bad the Devs have never, ever spoken about any missing APs issues. I'm guessing they don't really find it concerning...at this point in time, as no player, missing APs or not, could attain all known rewards.

I think that this point is important. The game seems, to me at least, to be designed so that no player could attain all known rewards. It is not supposed to happen.

Some players chose to not pursue the (now) missing AP. Depriving people of the results of their decisions is not a good thing IMO.

I know it's a lot to read through at this point, but this has been addressed. The reason this problem is worth trying to solve is that the limited availability of the content is an acknowledged mistake. If it were possible to do so, the content would still be available, so addressing the consequences of that unavailability is appropriate . . .

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Gop.8713" said:The present is where the problem exists and will continue to exist so long as rewards continue to be introduced and the lost ap remains lost, as you acknowledged when you proposed solving it by introducing ap available only to those who were missing the lost ap . . .

For anyone that thinks the problem exists in the present, they can go here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Achievement_point_rewards and figure out that more AP is coming in the future.

Do note that the proposal to increase the daily cap up to the number of missing AP is used to avoid freeloaders. Someone that has reached the daily cap, must have finished a lot of other AP too, therefore they are already completing achievements. The best solution would be to increase the daily cap for players that finished every other achievement first, but I can understand that would have many implementation problems, as this cap would have to be adjusted every time new AP is added to the game. Then remove access to the extra AP, and reinstate it when a player finishes all new AP. It might be way too complicated for such little gain. But increasing the daily cap is a good compromise and it avoids freeloaders. Any kind of solution that moves the rewards somewhere else is like asking for Raid achievements to be completed by killing a Moa in Queensdale. I don't care if you say "but the new way will be really hard too", that's beside the point and impossible to know.

The fifty-two (fifty-three today) thousand accounts is actually the smallest number of accounts that have run any of the stories. And these are efficiency numbers, real numbers would be higher, likely by a significant number . . .

Any of the stories and all the stories is completely different. You assume that a player that finished one of the stories would finish the story of S1, but since they haven't finished the -other- stories available to them already, there is little evidence to suggest otherwise. Do keep in mind that a player is in reality blocked from finishing story achievements, blocked by purchase of the respective episode, for all intends and purposes it's the same as missing the AP completely. Especially for the hypothetical player that you made up that does the math and checks how many AP they are missing in the PRESENT.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:The present is where the problem exists and will continue to exist so long as rewards continue to be introduced and the lost ap remains lost, as you acknowledged when you proposed solving it by introducing ap available only to those who were missing the lost ap . . .

For anyone that thinks the problem exists in the present, they can go here:
and figure out that more AP is coming in the future.They can also see that more rewards are coming in the future, which will tell them that the additional ap will do nothing to solve the problem, until the rewards stop . . .Do note that the proposal to increase the daily cap up to the number of missing AP is used to avoid freeloaders. Someone that has reached the daily cap, must have finished a lot of other AP too, therefore they are already completing achievements. The best solution would be to increase the daily cap for players that finished every other achievement first, but I can understand that would have many implementation problems, as this cap would have to be adjusted every time new AP is added to the game. Then remove access to the extra AP, and reinstate it when a player finishes all new AP. It might be way too complicated for such little gain. But increasing the daily cap is a good compromise and it avoids freeloaders. Any kind of solution that moves the rewards somewhere else is like asking for Raid achievements to be completed by killing a Moa in Queensdale. I don't care if you say "but the new way will be really hard too", that's beside the point and impossible to know.Raids suffer from lost content? What is the motivation to move raid rewards? Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . .

The fifty-two (fifty-three today) thousand accounts is actually the smallest number of accounts that have run any of the stories. And these are efficiency numbers, real numbers would be higher, likely by a significant number . . .

Any of the stories and all the stories is completely different. You assume that a player that finished one of the stories would finish the story of S1,And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.but since they haven't finished the -other- stories available to them already, there is little evidence to suggest otherwise.You're arguing that none of those fifty-three thousand accounts overlap with the accounts that have finished the other stories? I know mine does, stories are usually the first thing I do. I do not believe I am unique in this regard . . .Do keep in mind that a player is in reality blocked from finishing story achievements, blocked by purchase of the respective episode, for all intends and purposes it's the same as missing the AP completely. Especially for the hypothetical player that you made up that does the math and checks how many AP they are missing in the PRESENT.You're actually pointing out how accessible those stories are. Up on the gem store rn in fact. In the same place LS1 would be, if anet hadn't made the mistake they did in that story's format . . .

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:They can also see that more rewards are coming in the future, which will tell them that the additional ap will do nothing to solve the problem, until the rewards stop . . .

The additional AP will allow them to earn more rewards, same with all other players.

Raids suffer from lost content? What is the motivation to move raid rewards? Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . .

The freeloaders are those wanting access to rewards without doing the required content to get them. Namely those that will benefit from the removal of the unique achievement rewards and their inclusion in some other type of content.

And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.

Never assumed that. That's something you came up with and for some reason keep saying.

You're arguing that none of those fifty-three thousand accounts overlap with the accounts that have finished the other stories? I know mine does, stories are usually the first thing I do. I do not believe I am unique in this regard . . .

More assumptions. You shouldn't project yourself in your arguments though. Maybe you are indeed unique.

You're actually pointing out how accessible those stories are.

Yet they don't finish that story... curious how you believe a player will finish a story that is NOT currently available to them, yet they do not finish a story that you say is accessible to them. Where is your evidence to support that Season 1 missing Story WILL be finished, when there is more than enough to support that more accessible story isn't been finished?

Link to post
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gop.8713 said:They can also see that more rewards are coming in the future, which will tell them that the additional ap will do nothing to solve the problem, until the rewards stop . . .

The additional AP will allow them to earn more rewards, same with all other players.Yes, exactly . . .

Raids suffer from lost content? What is the motivation to move raid rewards? Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . .

The freeloaders are those wanting access to rewards without doing the required content to get them. Namely those that will benefit from the removal of the unique achievement rewards and their inclusion in some other type of content.But no such proposal has been made . . .

And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.

Never assumed that. That's something you came up with and for some reason keep saying.I keep repeating that you have said it, yes. You insist that the fact that players have ap available that they have not acquired means the unavailability of the lost content does not affect them. If you are now accepting that the lost ap is affecting those players, great, one less thing . . .

You're arguing that none of those fifty-three thousand accounts overlap with the accounts that have finished the other stories? I know mine does, stories are usually the first thing I do. I do not believe I am unique in this regard . . .

More assumptions. You shouldn't project yourself in your arguments though. Maybe you are indeed unique.

So you are not arguing that? You accept that many of the players who do not currently have access to the lost content would reap at least some of its rewards if it was available. Again, great, we're finally making some progress . . .

You're actually pointing out how accessible those stories are.

Yet they don't finish that story... curious how you believe a player will finish a story that is NOT currently available to them, yet they do not finish a story that you say is accessible to them. Where is your evidence to support that Season 1 missing Story WILL be finished, when there is more than enough to support that more accessible story isn't been finished?So now you're back to arguing that they would not do the story? Either they would or they wouldn't, pick a lane. If you're arguing they wouldn't, the data doesn't support you, as you noted. If you're arguing that they would, you must acknowledge that they would receive the rewards . . .

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Gop.8713" said:But no such proposal has been made . . .

You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?

I keep repeating that you have said it, yes.

Didn't say that.

You insist that the fact that players have ap available that they have not acquired means the unavailability of the lost content does not affect them.

And this is true. A player to be affected by the missing AP needs to get all the other AP first, or at least most of them.

If you are now accepting that the lost ap is affecting those players, great, one less thing . . .

But it doesn't affect them.A player might indeed go for Season 1 AP without first finishing all other AP, that doesn't mean they are affected by your so called "problem" of not getting rewards. If they want the rewards, they can go for all the other AP instead. So they aren't affected by your problem of missing rewards due to missing AP. You are for some reason combining the two, but they are completely separate.

You accept that many of the players who do not currently have access to the lost content would reap at least some of its rewards if it was available.

No. They would get some of the AP, nothing to do with the rewards. If they want the rewards, there is tons of AP available to them. If they want to see that number going slightly higher, then it's a different story.

So now you're back to arguing that they would not do the story? Either they would or they wouldn't, pick a lane. If you're arguing they wouldn't, the data doesn't support you, as you noted. If you're arguing that they would, you must acknowledge that they would receive the rewards . . .

They wouldn't and the data does support that they don't. But if they did, they wouldn't receive most of the rewards simply by finishing the 10 AP of the story. The story has nothing to do with AP rewards.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...