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Why not make damage multipliers additive instead of multiplicative?


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That would tone down damage across the board and increase time to kill. It'd be a lot easier to balance as well, which would lead to less time spent for the development team

Edit:

These are the changes that will reduce bunkers and power creep, but increase ttk:

  1. Make damage multipliers additive
  2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
  3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
  4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
  5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp
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Probably because multiplicative is more intuitive. If a mod says it gives you +10% increased damage with multiplicative if you were doing 100 damage you know with the mod you will do 110. If it is additive you have to figure out what is your base and what is the sum of your other modifiers.

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They could add an icon like boon/condi duration. Part of the problem in high end pvp and wvw are multiplicative damage modifiers giving out too much damage on skills that are balanced without them.

The game could tally up your modifiers, then add that % the same way it currently does. Only without the added multiplicative portion. No more one shots.

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@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higherThere are other considerations here, like damage modifiers with ferocity etc. Also, i'm not 100% sure about all, but some damage multipliers at least do indeed stack instead of simply adding up. All those from traits, for example.

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@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

so 10%+10%+50%+40%+5%is 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.05 for a total of 2.67.

additively it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplicatively it currently is a 167% damage increase.

each multiplier is worth more than the one before it, so the more you can stack up, the more absurd the damage gets. with all of the invulnerable/evade/block frames available right now, you can pretty safely stack them as high as possible. this is what causes fights to last <2s as you either block, dodge, or die.

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:They could add an icon like boon/condi duration. Part of the problem in high end pvp and wvw are multiplicative damage modifiers giving out too much damage on skills that are balanced without them.

The game could tally up your modifiers, then add that % the same way it currently does. Only without the added multiplicative portion. No more one shots.

So you are claiming ANet has no in house testers? Maybe they should fix that instead. They should have some anyway.

It's a strange claim even if you didn't mean that. Why wouldn't skills be designed for the modifiers' existence when it is either the same people designing both or the people making the skills should at least be aware of their existence? Do you think the devs do not know their own game? That would be a problem that needs fixing too.

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@Khisanth.2948 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:They could add an icon like boon/condi duration. Part of the problem in high end pvp and wvw are multiplicative damage modifiers giving out too much damage on skills that are balanced without them.

The game could tally up your modifiers, then add that % the same way it currently does. Only without the added multiplicative portion. No more one shots.

So you are claiming ANet has no in house testers? Maybe they should fix that instead. They should have some anyway.

It's a strange claim even if you didn't mean that. Why
wouldn't
skills be designed for the modifiers' existence when it is either the same people designing both or the people making the skills should at least be aware of their existence? Do you think the devs do not know their own game? That would be a problem that needs fixing too.

One step at a time. By making multipliers additive, maybe we could get some real balance decisions

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

so 10%+10%+50%+40%+5%is 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.05 for a total of 2.67.

additively it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplicatively it currently is a 267% damage increase.

each multiplier is worth more than the one before it, so the more you can stack up, the more absurd the damage gets. with all of the invulnerable/evade/block frames available right now, you can pretty safely stack them as high as possible. this is what causes fights to last <2s as you either block, dodge, or die.

As opposed to just standing there trying to shoot/hit back? Isn't that the point: You either block, dodge or die? It seems to me that they're working as intended, and if you're caught out, you're caught out.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:They could add an icon like boon/condi duration. Part of the problem in high end pvp and wvw are multiplicative damage modifiers giving out too much damage on skills that are balanced without them.

The game could tally up your modifiers, then add that % the same way it currently does. Only without the added multiplicative portion. No more one shots.

So you are claiming ANet has no in house testers? Maybe they should fix that instead. They should have some anyway.

It's a strange claim even if you didn't mean that. Why
wouldn't
skills be designed for the modifiers' existence when it is either the same people designing both or the people making the skills should at least be aware of their existence? Do you think the devs do not know their own game? That would be a problem that needs fixing too.

One step at a time. By making multipliers additive, maybe we could get some real balance decisions

The other thing to bear in mind here is that, unlike in GW, your PvP toons, and your opponent's, are used in PvE as well. These damage spikes are needed in group content. you can't just tell the group leader "Well, I think these multipliers are OP, so I don't use them".

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

so 10%+10%+50%+40%+5%is 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.05 for a total of 2.67.

additively it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplicatively it currently is a 267% damage increase.

each multiplier is worth more than the one before it, so the more you can stack up, the more absurd the damage gets. with all of the invulnerable/evade/block frames available right now, you can pretty safely stack them as high as possible. this is what causes fights to last <2s as you either block, dodge, or die.

As opposed to just standing there trying to shoot/hit back? Isn't that the point: You either block, dodge or die? It seems to me that they're working as intended, and if you're caught out, you're caught out.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:They could add an icon like boon/condi duration. Part of the problem in high end pvp and wvw are multiplicative damage modifiers giving out too much damage on skills that are balanced without them.

The game could tally up your modifiers, then add that % the same way it currently does. Only without the added multiplicative portion. No more one shots.

So you are claiming ANet has no in house testers? Maybe they should fix that instead. They should have some anyway.

It's a strange claim even if you didn't mean that. Why
wouldn't
skills be designed for the modifiers' existence when it is either the same people designing both or the people making the skills should at least be aware of their existence? Do you think the devs do not know their own game? That would be a problem that needs fixing too.

One step at a time. By making multipliers additive, maybe we could get some real balance decisions

The other thing to bear in mind here is that, unlike in GW, your PvP toons, and your opponent's, are used in PvE as well. These damage spikes are needed in group content. you can't just tell the group leader "Well, I think these multipliers are OP, so I don't use them".

As opposed to it being 2s per encounter? I've tried to get new people into competitive game modes four times now, and that's always the reason why they have no interest.

By making multipliers additive, it makes it easier to balance, which leads to better gameplay. Instead, we have a balance patch, a week later one or two classes are hilariously overpowered for 6mo, then it repeats.

This also allows say, double the modifiers for pve with skill splits. Which makes that game mode more easily balanced too

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

so 10%+10%+50%+40%+5%is 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.05 for a total of 2.67.

additively it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplicatively it currently is a 267% damage increase.

each multiplier is worth more than the one before it, so the more you can stack up, the more absurd the damage gets. with all of the invulnerable/evade/block frames available right now, you can pretty safely stack them as high as possible. this is what causes fights to last <2s as you either block, dodge, or die.

As opposed to just standing there trying to shoot/hit back? Isn't that the point: You either block, dodge or die? It seems to me that they're working as intended, and if you're caught out, you're caught out.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:They could add an icon like boon/condi duration. Part of the problem in high end pvp and wvw are multiplicative damage modifiers giving out too much damage on skills that are balanced without them.

The game could tally up your modifiers, then add that % the same way it currently does. Only without the added multiplicative portion. No more one shots.

So you are claiming ANet has no in house testers? Maybe they should fix that instead. They should have some anyway.

It's a strange claim even if you didn't mean that. Why
wouldn't
skills be designed for the modifiers' existence when it is either the same people designing both or the people making the skills should at least be aware of their existence? Do you think the devs do not know their own game? That would be a problem that needs fixing too.

One step at a time. By making multipliers additive, maybe we could get some real balance decisions

The other thing to bear in mind here is that, unlike in GW, your PvP toons, and your opponent's, are used in PvE as well. These damage spikes are needed in group content. you can't just tell the group leader "Well, I think these multipliers are OP, so I don't use them".

As opposed to it being 2s per encounter? I've tried to get new people into competitive game modes four times now, and that's always the reason why they have no interest.

By making multipliers additive, it makes it easier to balance, which leads to better gameplay. Instead, we have a balance patch, a week later one or two classes are hilariously overpowered for 6mo, then it repeats.

This also allows say, double the modifiers for pve with skill splits. Which makes that game mode more easily balanced too

Welcome to MMOs? They are never going to be able to balance PvP. There will always be that one guy that finds a combination of effects, or whatever, that slipped through the cracks. Some MMOs have forums dedicated to just that, including this one, since it does have class forums where builds are discussed. FotM is a thing for a reason, and that's the reason. It's been my experience in PvP discussions that players won't ever be happy until every class but their own is using nothing but basic attacks. It's a pretty common thing, and the source of the "Nerf rock, paper is fine as it is, scissors" meme.

So let's say they make them additive, and someone stacks all bonuses they can, then what? Limit the number of bonuses you can stack? That's already sort of a thing, only so many skills/weapons you can use. The thing you're trying to get away from, dying when you don't dodge or block, should never be a thing, if someone is unloading on you while you stand there shooting/hitting back, instead of actively attempting to defend yourself, you should die. That's like trying to get boss AoE damage nerfed because you don't want to be mobile, and get out of a circle of death. Changing bonuses to additive instead of multipliers won't fix anything as far as "I'm going to stand here and shoot back while you unload on me" goes. You'll live what, maybe one more second? So instead of one shotted you're two shotted, and then it's back to the forums, looking for a way to make "just stand there and shoot back" viable?

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

so 10%+10%+50%+40%+5%is 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.05 for a total of 2.67.

additively it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplicatively it currently is a 267% damage increase.

each multiplier is worth more than the one before it, so the more you can stack up, the more absurd the damage gets. with all of the invulnerable/evade/block frames available right now, you can pretty safely stack them as high as possible. this is what causes fights to last <2s as you either block, dodge, or die.

As opposed to just standing there trying to shoot/hit back? Isn't that the point: You either block, dodge or die? It seems to me that they're working as intended, and if you're caught out, you're caught out.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:They could add an icon like boon/condi duration. Part of the problem in high end pvp and wvw are multiplicative damage modifiers giving out too much damage on skills that are balanced without them.

The game could tally up your modifiers, then add that % the same way it currently does. Only without the added multiplicative portion. No more one shots.

So you are claiming ANet has no in house testers? Maybe they should fix that instead. They should have some anyway.

It's a strange claim even if you didn't mean that. Why
wouldn't
skills be designed for the modifiers' existence when it is either the same people designing both or the people making the skills should at least be aware of their existence? Do you think the devs do not know their own game? That would be a problem that needs fixing too.

One step at a time. By making multipliers additive, maybe we could get some real balance decisions

The other thing to bear in mind here is that, unlike in GW, your PvP toons, and your opponent's, are used in PvE as well. These damage spikes are needed in group content. you can't just tell the group leader "Well, I think these multipliers are OP, so I don't use them".

As opposed to it being 2s per encounter? I've tried to get new people into competitive game modes four times now, and that's always the reason why they have no interest.

By making multipliers additive, it makes it easier to balance, which leads to better gameplay. Instead, we have a balance patch, a week later one or two classes are hilariously overpowered for 6mo, then it repeats.

This also allows say, double the modifiers for pve with skill splits. Which makes that game mode more easily balanced too

Welcome to MMOs? They are never going to be able to balance PvP. There will always be that one guy that finds a combination of effects, or whatever, that slipped through the cracks. Some MMOs have forums dedicated to just that, including this one, since it does have class forums where builds are discussed. FotM is a thing for a reason, and that's the reason. It's been my experience in PvP discussions that players won't ever be happy until every class but their own is using nothing but basic attacks. It's a pretty common thing, and the source of the "Nerf rock, paper is fine as it is, scissors" meme.

So let's say they make them additive, and someone stacks all bonuses they can, then what? Limit the number of bonuses you can stack? That's already sort of a thing, only so many skills/weapons you can use. The thing you're trying to get away from, dying when you don't dodge or block, should never be a thing, if someone is unloading on you while you stand there shooting/hitting back, instead of actively attempting to defend yourself, you should die. That's like trying to get boss AoE damage nerfed because you don't want to be mobile, and get out of a circle of death. Changing bonuses to additive instead of multipliers won't fix anything as far as "I'm going to stand here and shoot back while you unload on me" goes. You'll live what, maybe one more second? So instead of one shotted you're two shotted, and then it's back to the forums, looking for a way to make "just stand there and shoot back" viable?

I'm not looking for stand and shoot? Nothing I've posted here even suggests that. The difference I posted above is accurate. 110% damage vs 267%, just from this change. There would still be strong defensive utility in that setup, and strong offensive burst. There wouldn't be one shots from stealth. It would strongly limit the rng factor in fights, a proc doesn't mean you immediately should win.

There would be more counterplay instead of passive immune trait is up or you instantly die. The current meta is awful and stops new players from joining.

This would be fair across the board as it affects each class equally. Just looking at ways to make ttk increase. If you have any real reasons why this would be a bad change instead of strawmen, please contribute?

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I can't honestly say this would be feasible at this point in the game, not without severe disruptions and unhappy players. Frankly, even if it did simply balance, I wouldn't readily conclude it would pave the path for devs to achieve balance. It seems like wishful thinking to me.

if the goal is easier ability to balance, I would say that the impact changing from multipliers to something else would be negligible towards that goal.

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

so 10%+10%+50%+40%+5%is 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.05 for a total of 2.67.

additively it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplicatively it currently is a 267% damage increase.

each multiplier is worth more than the one before it, so the more you can stack up, the more absurd the damage gets. with all of the invulnerable/evade/block frames available right now, you can pretty safely stack them as high as possible. this is what causes fights to last <2s as you either block, dodge, or die.

lol? Pretty dishonest math here...

added it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplied it would be a 167% damage increase

Idk where you even find 40% and 50% multipliers... (found sic'em and moment of clarity)

So as a hammer rev I have a lot of sources of conditional damage multipliers in my build,9%10%20%7%7%5%13%5%5%

added it would be:1.09+.1+.2+.07+.07+.05+.13+.05+.05 = *1.81

multiplied it is:1.091.11.21.071.071.051.131.051.05= *2.15

It equals ~ a 19% improvement in damage for me having multiplied instead of added. This is assuming I meet my damage multipliers' conditions like target below 50% hp, vulnerability present, fury present, self hp over 90% and so on. That gap drops drastically when large multipliers are removed from play.

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As things stand, the final damage done is divided by the enemy's armor, thus power in GW2 sorta acts as both "damage" and "penetration" attributes from some other games. The result is that, loosely speaking, your character can go full glass (no toughness, dies to any damage), bruiser (a bit of toughness, will take significantly less damage from tanks, but is still susceptible to glass cannons), or tank (a lot of toughness, survives even glass cannon's power burst).I mean, I haven't done the proper math to back up my reasoning, but that's how I generally think.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

Wait what? I've never seen a game do that before.

Yeah guild wars 2 wasn't really built for so many damage multipliers. Many games that I have played do indeed take multipliers and pool them together additively then apply it multiplicatively to the base with the occasional outlier mulitplier that is applied separately.

Making the multipliers additive in guild wars 2 wouldn't really do much beyond shaving off ~20% damage on super glass cannons. That may save some people from oneshot but it wouldn't suddenly make them capable of surviving any follow up attacks. Instead of reading about oneshots we would be seeing people complain about going form 100%-0% hp in 2 seconds.

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There is literally 0 reason to change from a multiplicative system to an additive system. If the current damage is to high, just reduce the multipliers. Problem solved.

If you want damage toned down, make a strong argument about it. Your argument to change the system is weak at best. That's not even getting into the risk of the perma bunker meta returning. There is a reason why arenanet is currently keeping time to kill low, because certain sustain classes are un-killable otherwise. Which causes a very own balance problem.

TL;DR: multipliers being additive versus multiplicative makes no difference since all variable can be changed and adjusted to any liking.

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@Justine.6351 said:

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

Wait what? I've never seen a game do that before.

Yeah guild wars 2 wasn't really built for so many damage multipliers. Many games that I have played do indeed take multipliers and pool them together additively then apply it multiplicatively to the base with the occasional outlier mulitplier that is applied separately.

Making the multipliers additive in guild wars 2 wouldn't really do much beyond shaving off ~20% damage on super glass cannons. That may save some people from oneshot but it wouldn't suddenly make them capable of surviving any follow up attacks. Instead of reading about oneshots we would be seeing people complain about going form 100%-0% hp in 2 seconds.

Mm yea, I think it wouldn't be that big of a difference. But as Risen Howl has stated, I think it'd be a better platform for proper balance changes as the current foundation is questionable.

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

so 10%+10%+50%+40%+5%is 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.05 for a total of 2.67.

additively it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplicatively it currently is a 267% damage increase.

each multiplier is worth more than the one before it, so the more you can stack up, the more absurd the damage gets. with all of the invulnerable/evade/block frames available right now, you can pretty safely stack them as high as possible. this is what causes fights to last <2s as you either block, dodge, or die.

As opposed to just standing there trying to shoot/hit back? Isn't that the point: You either block, dodge or die? It seems to me that they're working as intended, and if you're caught out, you're caught out.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:They could add an icon like boon/condi duration. Part of the problem in high end pvp and wvw are multiplicative damage modifiers giving out too much damage on skills that are balanced without them.

The game could tally up your modifiers, then add that % the same way it currently does. Only without the added multiplicative portion. No more one shots.

So you are claiming ANet has no in house testers? Maybe they should fix that instead. They should have some anyway.

It's a strange claim even if you didn't mean that. Why
wouldn't
skills be designed for the modifiers' existence when it is either the same people designing both or the people making the skills should at least be aware of their existence? Do you think the devs do not know their own game? That would be a problem that needs fixing too.

One step at a time. By making multipliers additive, maybe we could get some real balance decisions

The other thing to bear in mind here is that, unlike in GW, your PvP toons, and your opponent's, are used in PvE as well. These damage spikes are needed in group content. you can't just tell the group leader "Well, I think these multipliers are OP, so I don't use them".

As opposed to it being 2s per encounter? I've tried to get new people into competitive game modes four times now, and that's always the reason why they have no interest.

By making multipliers additive, it makes it easier to balance, which leads to better gameplay. Instead, we have a balance patch, a week later one or two classes are hilariously overpowered for 6mo, then it repeats.

This also allows say, double the modifiers for pve with skill splits. Which makes that game mode more easily balanced too

Welcome to MMOs? They are never going to be able to balance PvP. There will always be that one guy that finds a combination of effects, or whatever, that slipped through the cracks. Some MMOs have forums dedicated to just that, including this one, since it does have class forums where builds are discussed. FotM is a thing for a reason, and that's the reason. It's been my experience in PvP discussions that players won't ever be happy until every class but their own is using nothing but basic attacks. It's a pretty common thing, and the source of the "Nerf rock, paper is fine as it is, scissors" meme.

So let's say they make them additive, and someone stacks all bonuses they can, then what? Limit the number of bonuses you can stack? That's already sort of a thing, only so many skills/weapons you can use. The thing you're trying to get away from, dying when you don't dodge or block, should never be a thing, if someone is unloading on you while you stand there shooting/hitting back, instead of actively attempting to defend yourself, you should die. That's like trying to get boss AoE damage nerfed because you don't want to be mobile, and get out of a circle of death. Changing bonuses to additive instead of multipliers won't fix anything as far as "I'm going to stand here and shoot back while you unload on me" goes. You'll live what, maybe one more second? So instead of one shotted you're two shotted, and then it's back to the forums, looking for a way to make "just stand there and shoot back" viable?

I'm not looking for stand and shoot? Nothing I've posted here even suggests that. The difference I posted above is accurate. 110% damage vs 267%, just from this change. There would still be strong defensive utility in that setup, and strong offensive burst. There wouldn't be one shots from stealth. It would strongly limit the rng factor in fights, a proc doesn't mean you immediately should win.

There would be more counterplay instead of passive immune trait is up or you instantly die. The current meta is awful and stops new players from joining.

This would be fair across the board as it affects each class equally. Just looking at ways to make ttk increase. If you have any real reasons why this would be a bad change instead of strawmen, please contribute?

Oh, sorry, I based that off what you said about not blocking or dodging and dying, maybe you meant something else?

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@Justine.6351 said:

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

so 10%+10%+50%+40%+5%is 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.05 for a total of 2.67.

additively it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplicatively it currently is a 267% damage increase.

each multiplier is worth more than the one before it, so the more you can stack up, the more absurd the damage gets. with all of the invulnerable/evade/block frames available right now, you can pretty safely stack them as high as possible. this is what causes fights to last <2s as you either block, dodge, or die.

lol? Pretty dishonest math here...

added it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplied it would be a 167% damage increase

Idk where you even find 40% and 50% multipliers... (found sic'em and moment of clarity)

So as a hammer rev I have a lot of sources of
conditional
damage multipliers in my build,9%10%20%7%7%5%13%5%5%

added it would be:1.09+.1+.2+.07+.07+.05+.13+.05+.05 = *1.81

multiplied it is:1.09
1.1
1.2
1.07
1.07
1.05
1.13
1.05
1.05= *2.15

It equals ~ a 19% improvement in damage for me having multiplied instead of added. This is assuming I meet my damage multipliers' conditions like target below 50% hp, vulnerability present, fury present, self hp over 90% and so on. That gap drops drastically when large multipliers are removed from play.

That's a 34% increase. 2.15- 1.81.

34% isn't enough of a decrease to lower glass viability, but it's definitely enough to increase ttk. Which is healthy for competition.

You're right, it's a 2.67 modifer. Or 167% increase. Editing that post to not mislead. My bad!

@"Airdive.2613" said:As things stand, the final damage done is divided by the enemy's armor, thus power in GW2 sorta acts as both "damage" and "penetration" attributes from some other games. The result is that, loosely speaking, your character can go full glass (no toughness, dies to any damage), bruiser (a bit of toughness, will take significantly less damage from tanks, but is still susceptible to glass cannons), or tank (a lot of toughness, survives even glass cannon's power burst).I mean, I haven't done the proper math to back up my reasoning, but that's how I generally think.

You're right, that's how it used to be. But with power creep, even tanks are getting 2 shot in <1s. So there's no incentive to play a tank or bunker

@Justine.6351 said:

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

Wait what? I've never seen a game do that before.

Yeah guild wars 2 wasn't really built for so many damage multipliers. Many games that I have played do indeed take multipliers and pool them together additively then apply it multiplicatively to the base with the occasional outlier mulitplier that is applied separately.

Making the multipliers additive in guild wars 2 wouldn't really do much beyond shaving off ~20% damage on super glass cannons. That may save some people from oneshot but it wouldn't suddenly make them capable of surviving any follow up attacks. Instead of reading about oneshots we would be seeing people complain about going form 100%-0% hp in 2 seconds.

More ttk is exactly the goal. It allows for healthier competition with strategy, the only strategy currently is chain your defenses together to never get hit because everything chunks half your hp

@Cyninja.2954 said:There is literally 0 reason to change from a multiplicative system to an additive system. If the current damage is to high, just reduce the multipliers. Problem solved.

If you want damage toned down, make a strong argument about it. Your argument to change the system is weak at best. That's not even getting into the risk of the perma bunker meta returning. There is a reason why arenanet is currently keeping time to kill low, because certain sustain classes are un-killable otherwise. Which causes a very own balance problem.

TL;DR: multipliers being additive versus multiplicative makes no difference since all variable can be changed and adjusted to any liking.

Reducing the multipliers is difficult to balance and doesn't address the core problem. It leaves too much room for power creep down the line.

By going with additive damage, the whole system becomes much easier to balance. For both dps and bunkers. Since the balance team is having a difficult time, this seems like an ideal solution.

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

so 10%+10%+50%+40%+5%is 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.05 for a total of 2.67.

additively it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplicatively it currently is a 267% damage increase.

each multiplier is worth more than the one before it, so the more you can stack up, the more absurd the damage gets. with all of the invulnerable/evade/block frames available right now, you can pretty safely stack them as high as possible. this is what causes fights to last <2s as you either block, dodge, or die.

As opposed to just standing there trying to shoot/hit back? Isn't that the point: You either block, dodge or die? It seems to me that they're working as intended, and if you're caught out, you're caught out.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:They could add an icon like boon/condi duration. Part of the problem in high end pvp and wvw are multiplicative damage modifiers giving out too much damage on skills that are balanced without them.

The game could tally up your modifiers, then add that % the same way it currently does. Only without the added multiplicative portion. No more one shots.

So you are claiming ANet has no in house testers? Maybe they should fix that instead. They should have some anyway.

It's a strange claim even if you didn't mean that. Why
wouldn't
skills be designed for the modifiers' existence when it is either the same people designing both or the people making the skills should at least be aware of their existence? Do you think the devs do not know their own game? That would be a problem that needs fixing too.

One step at a time. By making multipliers additive, maybe we could get some real balance decisions

The other thing to bear in mind here is that, unlike in GW, your PvP toons, and your opponent's, are used in PvE as well. These damage spikes are needed in group content. you can't just tell the group leader "Well, I think these multipliers are OP, so I don't use them".

As opposed to it being 2s per encounter? I've tried to get new people into competitive game modes four times now, and that's always the reason why they have no interest.

By making multipliers additive, it makes it easier to balance, which leads to better gameplay. Instead, we have a balance patch, a week later one or two classes are hilariously overpowered for 6mo, then it repeats.

This also allows say, double the modifiers for pve with skill splits. Which makes that game mode more easily balanced too

Welcome to MMOs? They are never going to be able to balance PvP. There will always be that one guy that finds a combination of effects, or whatever, that slipped through the cracks. Some MMOs have forums dedicated to just that, including this one, since it does have class forums where builds are discussed. FotM is a thing for a reason, and that's the reason. It's been my experience in PvP discussions that players won't ever be happy until every class but their own is using nothing but basic attacks. It's a pretty common thing, and the source of the "Nerf rock, paper is fine as it is, scissors" meme.

So let's say they make them additive, and someone stacks all bonuses they can, then what? Limit the number of bonuses you can stack? That's already sort of a thing, only so many skills/weapons you can use. The thing you're trying to get away from, dying when you don't dodge or block, should never be a thing, if someone is unloading on you while you stand there shooting/hitting back, instead of actively attempting to defend yourself, you should die. That's like trying to get boss AoE damage nerfed because you don't want to be mobile, and get out of a circle of death. Changing bonuses to additive instead of multipliers won't fix anything as far as "I'm going to stand here and shoot back while you unload on me" goes. You'll live what, maybe one more second? So instead of one shotted you're two shotted, and then it's back to the forums, looking for a way to make "just stand there and shoot back" viable?

I'm not looking for stand and shoot? Nothing I've posted here even suggests that. The difference I posted above is accurate. 110% damage vs 267%, just from this change. There would still be strong defensive utility in that setup, and strong offensive burst. There wouldn't be one shots from stealth. It would strongly limit the rng factor in fights, a proc doesn't mean you immediately should win.

There would be more counterplay instead of passive immune trait is up or you instantly die. The current meta is awful and stops new players from joining.

This would be fair across the board as it affects each class equally. Just looking at ways to make ttk increase. If you have any real reasons why this would be a bad change instead of strawmen, please contribute?

Oh, sorry, I based that off what you said about not blocking or dodging and dying, maybe you meant something else?

Right now pvp is just a matter of who messes up their perfect defense rotation first. As soon as you do, you explode. There really aren't any bunkers that are viable because the power creep has gotten out of hand, there's no difference/very little difference in ttk between full glass and full bunker. There needs to be a buffer or people trying to enter the game mode can't and have no incentive to try

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

so 10%+10%+50%+40%+5%is 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.05 for a total of 2.67.

additively it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplicatively it currently is a 267% damage increase.

each multiplier is worth more than the one before it, so the more you can stack up, the more absurd the damage gets. with all of the invulnerable/evade/block frames available right now, you can pretty safely stack them as high as possible. this is what causes fights to last <2s as you either block, dodge, or die.

lol? Pretty dishonest math here...

added it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplied it would be a 167% damage increase

Idk where you even find 40% and 50% multipliers... (found sic'em and moment of clarity)

So as a hammer rev I have a lot of sources of
conditional
damage multipliers in my build,9%10%20%7%7%5%13%5%5%

added it would be:1.09+.1+.2+.07+.07+.05+.13+.05+.05 = *1.81

multiplied it is:1.09
1.1
1.2
1.07
1.07
1.05
1.13
1.05
1.05= *2.15

It equals ~ a 19% improvement in damage for me having multiplied instead of added. This is assuming I meet my damage multipliers' conditions like target below 50% hp, vulnerability present, fury present, self hp over 90% and so on. That gap drops drastically when large multipliers are removed from play.

That's a 34% increase. 2.15- 1.81.

34% isn't enough of a decrease to lower glass viability, but it's definitely enough to increase ttk. Which is healthy for competition.

And that math is correct, think you missed something there. Might have missed a number?

@"Airdive.2613" said:As things stand, the final damage done is
divided
by the enemy's armor, thus power in GW2 sorta acts as both "damage" and "penetration" attributes from some other games. The result is that, loosely speaking, your character can go full glass (no toughness, dies to any damage), bruiser (a bit of toughness, will take significantly less damage from tanks, but is still susceptible to glass cannons), or tank (a lot of toughness, survives even glass cannon's power burst).I mean, I haven't done the proper math to back up my reasoning, but that's how I generally think.

You're right, that's how it used to be. But with power creep, even tanks are getting 2 shot in <1s. So there's no incentive to play a tank or bunker

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

Wait what? I've never seen a game do that before.

Yeah guild wars 2 wasn't really built for so many damage multipliers. Many games that I have played do indeed take multipliers and pool them together additively then apply it multiplicatively to the base with the occasional outlier mulitplier that is applied separately.

Making the multipliers additive in guild wars 2 wouldn't really do much beyond shaving off ~20% damage on super glass cannons. That may save some people from oneshot but it wouldn't suddenly make them capable of surviving any follow up attacks. Instead of reading about oneshots we would be seeing people complain about going form 100%-0% hp in 2 seconds.

More ttk is exactly the goal. It allows for healthier competition with strategy, the only strategy currently is chain your defenses together to never get hit because everything chunks half your hp

@Cyninja.2954 said:There is literally 0 reason to change from a multiplicative system to an additive system. If the current damage is to high, just reduce the multipliers. Problem solved.

If you want damage toned down, make a strong argument about it. Your argument to change the system is weak at best. That's not even getting into the risk of the perma bunker meta returning. There is a reason why arenanet is currently keeping time to kill low, because certain sustain classes are un-killable otherwise. Which causes a very own balance problem.

TL;DR: multipliers being additive versus multiplicative makes no difference since all variable can be changed and adjusted to any liking.

Reducing the multipliers is difficult to balance and doesn't address the core problem. It leaves too much room for power creep down the line.

By going with additive damage, the whole system becomes much easier to balance. For both dps and bunkers. Since the balance team is having a difficult time, this seems like an ideal solution.

@LaGranse.8652 said:Are they not already additative? Two 5% increased damage modifiers will make the damage number 10% higher and not 10,25% higher

all damage modifers except for ferocity stack multiplicatively.

so 10%+10%+50%+40%+5%is 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.05 for a total of 2.67.

additively it would be a 115% damage increasemultiplicatively it currently is a 267% damage increase.

each multiplier is worth more than the one before it, so the more you can stack up, the more absurd the damage gets. with all of the invulnerable/evade/block frames available right now, you can pretty safely stack them as high as possible. this is what causes fights to last <2s as you either block, dodge, or die.

As opposed to just standing there trying to shoot/hit back? Isn't that the point: You either block, dodge or die? It seems to me that they're working as intended, and if you're caught out, you're caught out.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:They could add an icon like boon/condi duration. Part of the problem in high end pvp and wvw are multiplicative damage modifiers giving out too much damage on skills that are balanced without them.

The game could tally up your modifiers, then add that % the same way it currently does. Only without the added multiplicative portion. No more one shots.

So you are claiming ANet has no in house testers? Maybe they should fix that instead. They should have some anyway.

It's a strange claim even if you didn't mean that. Why
wouldn't
skills be designed for the modifiers' existence when it is either the same people designing both or the people making the skills should at least be aware of their existence? Do you think the devs do not know their own game? That would be a problem that needs fixing too.

One step at a time. By making multipliers additive, maybe we could get some real balance decisions

The other thing to bear in mind here is that, unlike in GW, your PvP toons, and your opponent's, are used in PvE as well. These damage spikes are needed in group content. you can't just tell the group leader "Well, I think these multipliers are OP, so I don't use them".

As opposed to it being 2s per encounter? I've tried to get new people into competitive game modes four times now, and that's always the reason why they have no interest.

By making multipliers additive, it makes it easier to balance, which leads to better gameplay. Instead, we have a balance patch, a week later one or two classes are hilariously overpowered for 6mo, then it repeats.

This also allows say, double the modifiers for pve with skill splits. Which makes that game mode more easily balanced too

Welcome to MMOs? They are never going to be able to balance PvP. There will always be that one guy that finds a combination of effects, or whatever, that slipped through the cracks. Some MMOs have forums dedicated to just that, including this one, since it does have class forums where builds are discussed. FotM is a thing for a reason, and that's the reason. It's been my experience in PvP discussions that players won't ever be happy until every class but their own is using nothing but basic attacks. It's a pretty common thing, and the source of the "Nerf rock, paper is fine as it is, scissors" meme.

So let's say they make them additive, and someone stacks all bonuses they can, then what? Limit the number of bonuses you can stack? That's already sort of a thing, only so many skills/weapons you can use. The thing you're trying to get away from, dying when you don't dodge or block, should never be a thing, if someone is unloading on you while you stand there shooting/hitting back, instead of actively attempting to defend yourself, you should die. That's like trying to get boss AoE damage nerfed because you don't want to be mobile, and get out of a circle of death. Changing bonuses to additive instead of multipliers won't fix anything as far as "I'm going to stand here and shoot back while you unload on me" goes. You'll live what, maybe one more second? So instead of one shotted you're two shotted, and then it's back to the forums, looking for a way to make "just stand there and shoot back" viable?

I'm not looking for stand and shoot? Nothing I've posted here even suggests that. The difference I posted above is accurate. 110% damage vs 267%, just from this change. There would still be strong defensive utility in that setup, and strong offensive burst. There wouldn't be one shots from stealth. It would strongly limit the rng factor in fights, a proc doesn't mean you immediately should win.

There would be more counterplay instead of passive immune trait is up or you instantly die. The current meta is awful and stops new players from joining.

This would be fair across the board as it affects each class equally. Just looking at ways to make ttk increase. If you have any real reasons why this would be a bad change instead of strawmen, please contribute?

Oh, sorry, I based that off what you said about not blocking or dodging and dying, maybe you meant something else?

Right now pvp is just a matter of who messes up their perfect defense rotation first. As soon as you do, you explode. There really aren't any bunkers that are viable because the power creep has gotten out of hand, there's no difference/very little difference in ttk between full glass and full bunker. There needs to be a buffer or people trying to enter the game mode can't and have no incentive to try

So what you're saying is that if you mess up your rotation, you're toast. Whether the multipliers change or not isn't going to solve that, it'll just give you a second chance to blow your rotation, especially if it's cooldown based against something that's not.

I just don't see this "fixing" PvP. I'm especially perplexed because, quite frankly, there aren't over 9,000 threads asking for this. If people well and truly believed that this was the case, I assure you there would be. Maybe, instead, something can be done to bolster defensive abilities? Maybe take a look at builds and see how much defense is being taken out in order to increase offense? I know that dps class forums are always about how to get those big numbers, and that survivability is always based on killing them before they kill you. Is it likely that that is happening here too? I've been in a lot of PvP fights, in a lot of games, and I've been one shotted more times than I care to remember by players coming out of stealth, which is supposed to happen, one shotted or dropped so drastically that you die on the next shot. I've handed out my share too, but I never thought, not one time, "Man, if damage bonus multipliers were lower, or didn't exist, he couldn't kill me". I always thought: Man, I need to pay more attention.

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