I Don't Like Elixir X

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Yea its a great skill, but it is still just a copy paste of other profession elites. Why couldn't it have gotten its own unique skill set?

Engineer always felt like it got the short end of the stick when it comes to development time. Copy paste skills on core and lack of a mechanic on scrapper. I appreciate the work that went into holosmith, but it still feels like it could have been more. Sword is a weaker copy of photon forge and is the only weapon affected by heat. The devs had the time to develop 50+ new skills for weaver, but couldn't be bothered to add additional heat effects to the other engineer weapons? Engineer doesn't even have that many weapons!

I hope engineer can receive a bit more love in the future. Elixir x was just the most blatant window into the general attitude towards engineer. Copy paste skills to save on development time.

[Dace.8173]

Why would you add Heat effects to the other weapons? Makes no sense. But I'm digressing, copy and paste? Are you and I playing the same profession? Unless your argument is that they provide similar end goal affects (ie burn damage, swiftness, stun breaks), a claim which applies to almost all of the professions in some compacity, to claim that it's a copy and paste job is to just blatantly ignore the profession as a whole. The Kits and Turrets aren't really copied from other professions. No one else has a Flamethrower or Elixer Gun. No one has a turret that fires rockets. No one else tosses grenades, drops bombs, fires mortars, has rocket boots, fires a ram from their belt buckle, etc etc etc. The only set of skills that one might be able to argue that the skills are copy and paste are Elixirs. However, those are just delivering boons to you.

Still, the skills the Engineer have are, for the most part, unique to Engineer. The Elixirs may be the most egregious in terms of delivering the same effect but overall I just don't see the Engineer as being a copy and paste of other professions.

[Shinjiko.1352]

I believe it's like this because of how engi is portrayed in the game. They are seen as the jack of all trades. They take a bit of everything from other professions and use that to their advantage. Hence why a lot of overlap in skills seems to happen to a lesser degree.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@Dace.8173 said:Why would you add Heat effects to the other weapons? Makes no sense. But I'm digressing, copy and paste? Are you and I playing the same profession? Unless your argument is that they provide similar end goal affects (ie burn damage, swiftness, stun breaks), a claim which applies to almost all of the professions in some compacity, to claim that it's a copy and paste job is to just blatantly ignore the profession as a whole. The Kits and Turrets aren't really copied from other professions. No one else has a Flamethrower or Elixer Gun. No one has a turret that fires rockets. No one else tosses grenades, drops bombs, fires mortars, has rocket boots, fires a ram from their belt buckle, etc etc etc. The only set of skills that one might be able to argue that the skills are copy and paste are Elixirs. However, those are just delivering boons to you.

Still, the skills the Engineer have are, for the most part, unique to Engineer. The Elixirs may be the most egregious in terms of delivering the same effect but overall I just don't see the Engineer as being a copy and paste of other professions.

Why not add heat effects to other weapons or even the core utilities? It seems like a simple way to make different skills more relevant to holo builds and add more depth to the class.

Elixir X is a direct copy paste of other skills already implemented on other professions. It is the most guilty of this flaw, which is why I picked it as the center of discussion. However, other engineer skills also lack distinctiveness, maybe not from other professions like Elixir X, but from other skills available to engineer. Grenade kit and mortar kit are strikingly similar, both being ranged power weapons with skills that blind, poison, and chill. Turrets aren't innocent of this either, rather than an interesting and unique elite turret we get more copies of the generic turrets.

I despise this sort of design. Taking existing skills and inserting them into new skills under a different name is not unique or interesting design, its lazy.

[InsaneQR.7412]

I dont know uf they removed the randomeness on the elite but if not u would remove just that to make it better.Rambage on use and moa on throw seems decent. Nobody needs the hurrican.

For underwater keep whirlpool and maybe throw down a plagueland?

[Chaith.8256]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:I dont know uf they removed the randomeness on the elite but if not u would remove just that to make it better.Rambage on use and moa on throw seems decent. Nobody needs the hurrican.

For underwater keep whirlpool and maybe throw down a plagueland?

Guaranteed rampage is overpowered and bland because it'd be the exact same mechanic as Warrior rampage, except straight-up better.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:I dont know uf they removed the randomeness on the elite but if not u would remove just that to make it better.Rambage on use and moa on throw seems decent. Nobody needs the hurrican.

For underwater keep whirlpool and maybe throw down a plagueland?

Guaranteed rampage is overpowered and bland because it'd be the exact same mechanic as Warrior rampage, except straight-up better.

Maybe with shorter duration then?Atm its a dice roll and either a good skill or a bad one. There is no tactical advantage on rng.

[Chaith.8256]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:I dont know uf they removed the randomeness on the elite but if not u would remove just that to make it better.Rambage on use and moa on throw seems decent. Nobody needs the hurrican.

For underwater keep whirlpool and maybe throw down a plagueland?

Guaranteed rampage is overpowered and bland because it'd be the exact same mechanic as Warrior rampage, except straight-up better.

Maybe with shorter duration then?Atm its a dice roll and either a good skill or a bad one. There is no tactical advantage on rng.

Maybe something less creatively lazy..

Like a unique Mr. Hyde transform that's fitting for an alchemical genius:

Elixir X: New: Drink Elixir X to become a monstrous alchemical being. (Bar icon mouseover: Test Subject X). Transform looks like a potion/alchemy re-skinned version of: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Subject_Alpha.jpg . Engineers while transformed into Test Subject X gain 2,000 toughness and vitality, a similar durability compared to Rampage. Stability x2, 3s, boon interval: 3s.

• 1) "Thrash", 1/2s cast, 120 range, Damage: 244 (1.6), Number of targets: 3. -> "Hammer Fist", 1/2s cast, 120 range, Damage: 244 (1.6), Number of targets: 3. -> "Brutalize" 1s cast, 120 range, Damage: 304 (2.0), Number of targets: 3, launches foes upwards for 1 second.
• 2) "Liquefy", dissolve and surge toward a foe, reappearing with a cloud of steam, blinding foes. 3/4s cast. Evade: 1s. 5 second cooldown. 600 range (dash ability)
• 3) "Primordial Frenzy", Grant yourself quickness (3s) and cause each hit in the next 3 seconds to apply bleeding and cripple. Bleed, 6s. Cripple, 1s 1/2s cast. 6 second cooldown.
• 4) "Spine Barrage", Fire a cluster of arcing spines at a target area, pinning and damaging foes. 1/2s cast. 9s cooldown. 240 radius area. 900 range. 770 (2.0) damage. Immobilize, 2 seconds. (Arcing arrow-like ability.)
• 5) "Toxic eruption," Launch and poison foes in a cone with a forceful blast of hazardous waste. 1+1/4s cast. 9 second cooldown. 450 range frontal cone. 532 (2.0) damage. 3 Poison, 10 seconds. Number of targets: 5. (Chaotic release-like ability.)

Balance not hugely precise, if it's a unique engineer ability, it can be at least nerfed/buffed without comparison to Rampage

[Josif.2015]

The only elixir that still involves randomness is elixir x. I'm guessing them making it a guaranteed rampage would indeed make it overpowered with the lower cooldown and whatnot. Like @Chaith.8256 said, in order to remove the RNG aspect from elixir x it's going to take a complete rework for this to happen.

Considering that ArenaNet was working on two PvP maps just in time for the beginning of season 14, I don't think we'll be getting that big of a rework on elixir x anytime soon.

[Chaith.8256]

@Hoodie.1045 said:The only elixir that still involves randomness is elixir x. I'm guessing them making it a guaranteed rampage would indeed make it overpowered with the lower cooldown and whatnot. Like @Chaith.8256 said, in order to remove the RNG aspect from elixir x it's going to take a complete rework for this to happen.

Considering that ArenaNet was working on two PvP maps just in time for the beginning of season 14, I don't think we'll be getting that big of a rework on elixir x anytime soon.

I agree we probably won't see a rework on Elixir X, but it's the PvP team working on maps - and the skills and balance team who would re-work skills like Elixir X.

If Elixir X was breaking the game'sPvE, maybe

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:I dont know uf they removed the randomeness on the elite but if not u would remove just that to make it better.Rambage on use and moa on throw seems decent. Nobody needs the hurrican.

For underwater keep whirlpool and maybe throw down a plagueland?

Guaranteed rampage is overpowered and bland because it'd be the exact same mechanic as Warrior rampage, except straight-up better.

Maybe with shorter duration then?Atm its a dice roll and either a good skill or a bad one. There is no tactical advantage on rng.

Maybe something less creatively lazy..

Like a unique Mr. Hyde transform that's fitting for an alchemical genius:

Elixir X: New: Drink Elixir X to become a monstrous alchemical being. (Bar icon mouseover: Test Subject X). Transform looks like a potion/alchemy re-skinned version of:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Subject_Alpha.jpg

. Engineers while transformed into Test Subject X gain 2,000 toughness and vitality, a similar durability compared to Rampage. Stability x2, 3s, boon interval: 3s.

• 1) "Thrash", 1/2s cast, 120 range, Damage: 244 (1.6), Number of targets: 3. -> "Hammer Fist", 1/2s cast, 120 range, Damage: 244 (1.6), Number of targets: 3. -> "Brutalize" 1s cast, 120 range, Damage: 304 (2.0), Number of targets: 3, launches foes upwards for 1 second.
• 2) "Liquefy", dissolve and surge toward a foe, reappearing with a cloud of steam, blinding foes. 3/4s cast. Evade: 1s. 5 second cooldown. 600 range (dash ability)
• 3) "Primordial Frenzy", Grant yourself quickness (3s) and cause each hit in the next 3 seconds to apply bleeding and cripple. Bleed, 6s. Cripple, 1s 1/2s cast. 6 second cooldown.
• 4) "Spine Barrage", Fire a cluster of arcing spines at a target area, pinning and damaging foes. 1/2s cast. 9s cooldown. 240 radius area. 900 range. 770 (2.0) damage. Immobilize, 2 seconds. (Arcing arrow-like ability.)
• 5) "Toxic eruption," Launch and poison foes in a cone with a forceful blast of hazardous waste. 1+1/4s cast. 9 second cooldown. 450 range frontal cone. 532 (2.0) damage. 3 Poison, 10 seconds. Number of targets: 5. (Chaotic release-like ability.)

Balance not hugely precise, if it's a unique engineer ability, it can be at least nerfed/buffed without comparison to Rampage

Yes! This is what I would like to see, and it is a natural next step after the elixir rework.

[Dace.8173]

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@Dace.8173 said:Why would you add Heat effects to the other weapons? Makes no sense. But I'm digressing, copy and paste? Are you and I playing the same profession? Unless your argument is that they provide similar end goal affects (ie burn damage, swiftness, stun breaks), a claim which applies to almost all of the professions in some compacity, to claim that it's a copy and paste job is to just blatantly ignore the profession as a whole. The Kits and Turrets aren't really copied from other professions. No one else has a Flamethrower or Elixer Gun. No one has a turret that fires rockets. No one else tosses grenades, drops bombs, fires mortars, has rocket boots, fires a ram from their belt buckle, etc etc etc. The only set of skills that one might be able to argue that the skills are copy and paste are Elixirs. However, those are just delivering boons to you.

Still, the skills the Engineer have are, for the most part, unique to Engineer. The Elixirs may be the most egregious in terms of delivering the same effect but overall I just don't see the Engineer as being a copy and paste of other professions.

Why not add heat effects to other weapons or even the core utilities? It seems like a simple way to make different skills more relevant to holo builds and add more depth to the class.

Elixir X is a direct copy paste of other skills already implemented on other professions. It is the most guilty of this flaw, which is why I picked it as the center of discussion. However, other engineer skills also lack distinctiveness, maybe not from other professions like Elixir X, but from other skills available to engineer. Grenade kit and mortar kit are strikingly similar, both being ranged power weapons with skills that blind, poison, and chill. Turrets aren't innocent of this either, rather than an interesting and unique elite turret we get more copies of the generic turrets.

I despise this sort of design. Taking existing skills and inserting them into new skills under a different name is not unique or interesting design, its lazy.

I've already conceded that the Elixirs are guilty of what you speak of since they are pretty much just boon spams in gatoraid form. However, for most things in this game there is a lot of overlap in results. You can find all the basic abilities of an Elementalist laced in other professions. Guardian and Elementalist do burn damage. Elementalist and Reaper do chill effects. However, the way Engineer delivers its burn effects are a lot more varied ways from Guardian and Elementalist. The same applies to do chill effects. If one were to look through the wiki you would find that there is an insane level of skill overlap with only a handful of things that one might be considered unique to a profession, mostly in terms of profession-specific mechanics. Variety and uniqueness tends to be in the delivery method as opposed to the actual end result. Within the profession most skills are uniquely their own. I don't recall seeing another set of skills that works exactly like the Flamethrower, Tool Kit, or Elixer Gun. The worst offenders in that regard are the aforementioned Grenade and Morter skills.

Overall, I find that Engineer does have a unique skill set but that uniqueness is in the method of delivery and not the end result of the action, which overlaps throughout the game for every profession.

[Chaith.8256]

@Dace.8173 said:However, for most things in this game there is a lot of overlap in results. You can find all the basic abilities of an Elementalist laced in other professions. Guardian and Elementalist do burn damage. Elementalist and Reaper do chill effects. However, the way Engineer delivers its burn effects are a lot more varied ways from Guardian and Elementalist. The same applies to do chill effects. If one were to look through the wiki you would find that there is an insane level of skill overlap with only a handful of things that one might be considered unique to a profession, mostly in terms of profession-specific mechanics. Variety and uniqueness tends to be in the delivery method as opposed to the actual end result. Within the profession most skills are uniquely their own. I don't recall seeing another set of skills that works exactly like the Flamethrower, Tool Kit, or Elixer Gun. The worst offenders in that regard are the aforementioned Grenade and Morter skills.

Overall, I find that Engineer does have a unique skill set but that uniqueness is in the method of delivery and not the end result of the action, which overlaps throughout the game for every profession.

Elixir X is the topic, despite your findings that overall Engineer has a unique skill set, Elixir X remains both the exact same delivery method and end result as other individual skills. The case to change Elixir X to at least have a unique delivery is solid, and expected eventually

[Prinzsecond.4863]

I aggree with you that elixir X (and a few other skills) are basically copy-paste.... BUT! IMHO this is exactly how it should be for elixirs! Imagine the Engineer as an Alchemist researching on different subjects, on different classes, trying to fuse elites to make them his own. That is in my Fantasy how elixir X was created. Years of science to Combine warrior, mesmer and elementalist genes to a powerful elixir, with the drawback that either one is dominant each time you drink it.

Engineer has so many unique skills that it makes it even more fun to have something copied from other classes.

Concerning Grenades and Mortar is a similar Thing. The engineer developed his grenades to be bigger, more powerful but just cannot fire three at once but then has to stick to one.

I think it is exactly reflecting the thoughts behind the engineer, being a mad scientist.

[Jeknar.6184]

@Hoodie.1045 said:The only elixir that still involves randomness is elixir x

Toss Elixir B still have the RNG effect on the boons other than Stability.

[Chaith.8256]

@Prinzsecond.4863 said:I aggree with you that elixir X (and a few other skills) are basically copy-paste.... BUT! IMHO this is exactly how it should be for elixirs! Imagine the Engineer as an Alchemist researching on different subjects, on different classes, trying to fuse elites to make them his own. That is in my Fantasy how elixir X was created. Years of science to Combine warrior, mesmer and elementalist genes to a powerful elixir, with the drawback that either one is dominant each time you drink it.

Engineer has so many unique skills that it makes it even more fun to have something copied from other classes.

Concerning Grenades and Mortar is a similar Thing. The engineer developed his grenades to be bigger, more powerful but just cannot fire three at once but then has to stick to one.

I think it is exactly reflecting the thoughts behind the engineer, being a mad scientist.

I think you're just exceptional at getting into the roleplaying aspect. The realist in me especially can't get into Tornado from a role-playing, gameplay, or copied aesthetic angle.

A little silly to drink a potion that rearranges your cells into a Tornado and back.. Or consider an explanation where after researching Elementalists genes, can now use what's clearly a magical transformation.

Rampage I think works from a role-playing angle, but it's still copied gameplay and aesthetics. That's why I'm still firmly in the camp for Elixir X with unique gameplay and aesthetics.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Chaith.8256 said:Rampage I think works from a role-playing angle, but it's still copied gameplay and aesthetics. That's why I'm still firmly in the camp for Elixir X with unique gameplay and aesthetics.

Yeah, the Rampage/Tornado was lazy design IMO. Then again, I think RNG generally is too if the whole game isn't designed around RNG.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Dace.8173 said:However, for most things in this game there is a lot of overlap in results. You can find all the basic abilities of an Elementalist laced in other professions. Guardian and Elementalist do burn damage. Elementalist and Reaper do chill effects. However, the way Engineer delivers its burn effects are a lot more varied ways from Guardian and Elementalist. The same applies to do chill effects. If one were to look through the wiki you would find that there is an insane level of skill overlap with only a handful of things that one might be considered unique to a profession, mostly in terms of profession-specific mechanics. Variety and uniqueness tends to be in the delivery method as opposed to the actual end result. Within the profession most skills are uniquely their own. I don't recall seeing another set of skills that works exactly like the Flamethrower, Tool Kit, or Elixer Gun. The worst offenders in that regard are the aforementioned Grenade and Morter skills.

Overall, I find that Engineer does have a unique skill set but that uniqueness is in the method of delivery and not the end result of the action, which overlaps throughout the game for every profession.

Elixir X is the topic, despite your findings that overall Engineer has a unique skill set, Elixir X remains both the exact same delivery method and end result as other individual skills. The case to change Elixir X to at least have a unique delivery is solid, and expected eventually

This is partially my fault, I derailed my post by talking about other skills. But, my point still stands. Elixir X is lazy design and it and any skills that follow suit should be changed.

[Naxos.2503]

I would tend to agree with OP on elixir X, the other elixirs arent as blatant, but Elixir X literally takes 3 classes elites (Ele, Warrior, Mesmer), only the Mesmer is a sure fire.I never use Elixir X, because I prefer to rely on results I can replicate at will, and the Completely random possibilities I get dont allow that. Only the mesmer moa transformation is guaranteed, but it's still a copypaste.

I'd much prefer the Elixir X elite toolbet to be a caustic concoction that when thrown works like acid : Vulnerability, atleast 3 poison stacks (if not more) and an explosion on impact. It removes a very strong CC for Engineer, but at least it would fit better, an alchemist doesn't only create medicines and buffs, but also poisons and acids, so far, Poison could stand to be more prominent in an engineer's roster.

I profess not knowing what it could replace, but Chaith's earlier draft of a transformation skill into what about to a big test subject sounds way more fitting than what we currently have.

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

maybe something like:

get a 10sec buff whne using elixir x, giving all other elixirs/toss elixirs an offensive effect rather than the boons/defensive things they normally do?

or

chaiths idea with the dr hyde thingy but u become big and weird but no new skills but rather a large area effect thats mvoes with u and randomly swaps boons on enemies to other enemies

[Dace.8173]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Dace.8173 said:However, for most things in this game there is a lot of overlap in results. You can find all the basic abilities of an Elementalist laced in other professions. Guardian and Elementalist do burn damage. Elementalist and Reaper do chill effects. However, the way Engineer delivers its burn effects are a lot more varied ways from Guardian and Elementalist. The same applies to do chill effects. If one were to look through the wiki you would find that there is an insane level of skill overlap with only a handful of things that one might be considered unique to a profession, mostly in terms of profession-specific mechanics. Variety and uniqueness tends to be in the delivery method as opposed to the actual end result. Within the profession most skills are uniquely their own. I don't recall seeing another set of skills that works exactly like the Flamethrower, Tool Kit, or Elixer Gun. The worst offenders in that regard are the aforementioned Grenade and Morter skills.

Overall, I find that Engineer does have a unique skill set but that uniqueness is in the method of delivery and not the end result of the action, which overlaps throughout the game for every profession.

Elixir X is the topic, despite your findings that overall Engineer has a unique skill set, Elixir X remains both the exact same delivery method and end result as other individual skills. The case to change Elixir X to at least have a unique delivery is solid, and expected eventually

You might be correct if the OP hadn't said

Engineer always felt like it got the short end of the stick when it comes to development time. Copy paste skills on core and lack of a mechanic on scrapper. I appreciate the >work that went into holosmith, but it still feels like it could have been more. Sword is a weaker copy of photon forge and is the only weapon affected by heat. The devs had >the time to develop 50+ new skills for weaver, but couldn't be bothered to add additional heat effects to the other engineer weapons? Engineer doesn't even have that >many weapons!

Where is clearly talking about more than just Elixir X. In that paragraph he talks about Scrapper lacking a mechanic, Heat changes not being attached to more than just the sword, and talking about how they developed new skills for Weaver but didn't do the same for Holosmith. He even makes it clear that he was talking about other things when he states

I hope engineer can receive a bit more love in the future. Elixir x was just the most blatant window into the general attitude towards engineer. Copy paste skills to save on >development time.

Which makes it clear that he just finds Elixir X to be the worst example of what he describes. However, I'm also continuing a discussion I was having with him as he responded to my initial comment and made several points that went beyond a discussion of just Elixir X such as

Why not add heat effects to other weapons or even the core utilities? It seems like a simple way to make different skills more relevant to holo builds and add more depth >to the class.

Which is a continuation of his initial comments about Heat being underused or

Elixir X is a direct copy paste of other skills already implemented on other professions. It is the most guilty of this flaw, which is why I picked it as the center of discussion. >However, other engineer skills also lack distinctiveness, maybe not from other professions like Elixir X, but from other skills available to engineer. Grenade kit and mortar >kit are strikingly similar, both being ranged power weapons with skills that blind, poison, and chill. Turrets aren't innocent of this either, rather than an interesting and >unique elite turret we get more copies of the generic turrets.

In which he restates that Elixir X is the worst offender of a trend that he sees with Engineer skills however he still feels that other skills have problems, such as the Grenade Kit and Mortar kit being too similar. The OP made this more than just Elixir X and I was engaged in a conversation with him about his broader point about Engineer skills and not his specific example. I actually agreed with him on the matter of Elixir X, and the elixirs in a more general sense, but disagreed with him on other Engineering skills. I even conceded to him the argument on Elixir X twice, so don't act like I'm building a case against his point about Elixir X or not being on topic since my comments are a direct response to his comments and I never, at any point, disagreed with him on the example he chose to make his broader point. If he felt I was off topic he would have told me when he first responded to me. The OP doesn't need you to police my posts.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:maybe something like:

get a 10sec buff whne using elixir x, giving all other elixirs/toss elixirs an offensive effect rather than the boons/defensive things they normally do?

or

chaiths idea with the dr hyde thingy but u become big and weird but no new skills but rather a large area effect thats mvoes with u and randomly swaps boons on enemies to other enemies

I like the idea of an elite buffing/altering the abilities of other skills. Rather than simply giving a new skill set. Perhaps the offensive elixirs would have reduced cool downs so you would become a brutish alchemist lobbing potions at enemies

[whoknocks.4935]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:I dont know uf they removed the randomeness on the elite but if not u would remove just that to make it better.Rambage on use and moa on throw seems decent. Nobody needs the hurrican.

For underwater keep whirlpool and maybe throw down a plagueland?

Guaranteed rampage is overpowered and bland because it'd be the exact same mechanic as Warrior rampage, except straight-up better.

Maybe with shorter duration then?Atm its a dice roll and either a good skill or a bad one. There is no tactical advantage on rng.

In a pvp scenario even tornado is not completely useless, sometimes you get those big ccs into a team fight and it's pretty decent, rampage is top 1vs1, tornado is good in XvsX, but you usually leave tornado form after using skill5.With the recent patches they buffed it quite a lot, only 60 seconds cd and with the new power wrench you got about every 30-40ish~ seconds, and it's meta right now and pretty strong.If you talk of pve then I have no clue.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:I dont know uf they removed the randomeness on the elite but if not u would remove just that to make it better.Rambage on use and moa on throw seems decent. Nobody needs the hurrican.

For underwater keep whirlpool and maybe throw down a plagueland?

Guaranteed rampage is overpowered and bland because it'd be the exact same mechanic as Warrior rampage, except straight-up better.

Maybe with shorter duration then?Atm its a dice roll and either a good skill or a bad one. There is no tactical advantage on rng.

In a pvp scenario even tornado is not completely useless, sometimes you get those big ccs into a team fight and it's pretty decent, rampage is top 1vs1, tornado is good in XvsX, but you usually leave tornado form after using skill5.With the recent patches they buffed it quite a lot, only 60 seconds cd and with the new power wrench you got about every 30-40ish~ seconds, and it's meta right now and pretty strong.If you talk of pve then I have no clue.

Rampage has better cc and dmg in pve as far as i know.Problem with the elixir is that you can pull the wrong form in the wrong moments which sucks.