What is typical DPS on a "normal" raid golem with "average" HP but NO perma boons?

[Nerah.8235]

Was messing around with the training golems, and trying to see what the max sustained DPS I can do on an average golem in the absence of boons, other than what I can generate and sustain myself. This may sound like a counterproductive endeavor, but I find it sort of helpful to determine what you may be able to solo (content wise). Didn't know if anyone else out there had done this. I found that I have doubled my boonless DPS output from when I first used the special forces training area:

initial 6 months ago:Reaper (Lv80) full exotic gear and weapons (cavalier/reaper runes; axe/focus/GS) plus full ascended trinkets (cleric): ~2200 DPS

now:Reaper (Lv80) full exotic armor (crusader/reaper runes) and exotic weapons (cavalier; axe/focus/GS) plus full ascended trinkets (cavalier): ~4800 DPS

Unfortunately, don't know how this compares against what other people could achieve.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Nerah.8235 said:Was messing around with the training golems, and trying to see what the max sustained DPS I can do on an average golem in the absence of boons, other than what I can generate and sustain myself. This may sound like a counterproductive endeavor, but I find it sort of helpful to determine what you may be able to solo (content wise). Didn't know if anyone else out there had done this. I found that I have doubled my boonless DPS output from when I first used the special forces training area:

initial 6 months ago:Reaper (Lv80) full exotic gear and weapons (cavalier/reaper runes; axe/focus/GS) plus full ascended trinkets (cleric): ~2200 DPS

now:Reaper (Lv80) full exotic armor (crusader/reaper runes) and exotic weapons (cavalier; axe/focus/GS) plus full ascended trinkets (cavalier): ~4800 DPS

Unfortunately, don't know how this compares against what other people could achieve.

Thats kinda low dps try berserker stats instead. Try to hit between 15k to 20k dps

[Jeknar.6184]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Nerah.8235 said:Was messing around with the training golems, and trying to see what the max sustained DPS I can do on an average golem in the absence of boons, other than what I can generate and sustain

myself

. This may sound like a counterproductive endeavor, but I find it sort of helpful to determine what you may be able to solo (content wise). Didn't know if anyone else out there had done this. I found that I have doubled my boonless DPS output from when I first used the special forces training area:

initial 6 months ago:Reaper (Lv80) full exotic gear and weapons (cavalier/reaper runes; axe/focus/GS) plus full ascended trinkets (cleric): ~2200 DPS

now:Reaper (Lv80) full exotic armor (crusader/reaper runes) and exotic weapons (cavalier; axe/focus/GS) plus full ascended trinkets (cavalier): ~4800 DPS

Unfortunately, don't know how this compares against what other people could achieve.

Thats kinda low dps try berserker stats instead. Try to hit between 15k to 20k dps

I find very unlikely a profession can hit those numbers without boons...

[NewTrain.7549]

With most of my damage-oriented characters I'm doing somewhere between 8-13k with no boons other than what I generate myself. My healing scourge with no offensive stats at all hits around 4k. I should add that I'm not a raider and my rotations are likely not very tight.

[Cyninja.2954]

@NewTrain.7549 said:With most of my damage-oriented characters I'm doing somewhere between 8-13k with no boons other than what I generate myself. My healing scourge with no offensive stats at all hits around 4k. I should add that I'm not a raider and my rotations are likely not very tight.

This.

My Deadeye old build (Full ascended berserker armor and weapons, ascended marauder trinkets, no stat bonus infusions) is hitting 9k dps on the average golem with not boons (except self fury), no weakness on target and no class buffs. Literally just first try to see how it compares approximately.

Given the build is outperformed by Holo and other power builds, this puts in between your 8-13k base.

EDIT: did have food and utility buff still running from raids, forgot to mention.

[Aktium.9506]

@Jeknar.6184 said:I find very unlikely a profession can hit those numbers without boons...pchrono gets 24k with only self-generated boons

[Fractal Spoon.9280]

Also something to consider: Depending on the burst of your spec, you will end up with a higher number if you test it on a 1mil golem vs a 4mil one.

[phs.6089]

Why exactly you are using 'crusader' & 'cavalier' for reaper?

[Voltekka.2375]

Cavalier stats? Reaper runes? Horrible setup for a dps role...

[yann.1946]

@Voltekka.2375 said:Cavalier stats? Reaper runes? Horrible setup for a dps role...

As he's building this for solo play theirs not really a dps role.

[Voltekka.2375]

@yann.1946 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Cavalier stats? Reaper runes? Horrible setup for a dps role...

As he's building this for solo play theirs not really a dps role.

Cant really say, then, how much dps he/she should have.

[Nerah.8235]

The stat combo question is relevant (sort of): for most late game PvE content, some combination of berserker and marauder would probably be optimal. The issue is that I typically use a single all-purpose build for all modes, because I would rather "play" than grind out gear sets for each mode. It is not optimal, but generally it is "good enough". I like toughness gear, mainly because it helps a lot in PvP modes when you get ganked, while being decent (ymmv) for soloing stuff in PvE, like soloing dungeon content.

 > @Voltekka.2375 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Cavalier stats? Reaper runes? Horrible setup for a dps role...

As he's building this for solo play theirs not really a dps role.

Cant really say, then, how much dps he/she should have.

Above is strictly speaking true, as I am not building out for a raid DPS role, HOWEVER, if you assume that the community reported boonless golem DPS output is "optimal"--at least in a certain narrow sense--it gives you an indication of how effective your build is compared to that standard. It is nice to know this qualitatively, i.e. ~30-50% the DPS of "optimal" builds in my case [note: NOT adjusted for class, build, or gear]. This gives you a mental idea of the upper limits of stuff you could reasonably solo: in my case, I could probably solo the easiest content in some fractals and dungeons, but I would definitely need a group for content that is recognized as harder or require complicated mechanics.

[Nerah.8235]

@Aktium.9506 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:I find very unlikely a profession can hit those numbers without boons...pchrono gets 24k with only self-generated boons

I noticed this in the discussion. If true (and can anyone confirm this?), that appears to be a serious outlier, i.e. double what players report other optimized professions seem to be able to achieve in similar circumstances. I must confess that I try to stay out of balance discussions, but stuff like this kinda gives the game a black eye.

[Shivvies.3921]

I don't understand. Necro is like THE profession to go full on 'zerker. You guys have more hp than a defence traited warrior AND access to multiple tanky pets.

Solo is basically a "dps role" for all professions really shorter TTK is queen in solo and doubly so for necro.

I'd definitely go full zerker and scholars with force / accuracy on weapon.

Cheers!

[Shivvies.3921]

I also do not play necro a lot but I have a pretty newbie necro in my static who does 10-12k bursts in open world without boonshare. I THINK he can sustain 8-9kish if he can just stand there and dps if that gives you an idea.

Cheers!

[Shivvies.3921]

@Nerah.8235 said:

@Aktium.9506 said:

@"Jeknar.6184" said:I find very unlikely a profession can hit those numbers without boons...pchrono gets 24k with only self-generated boons

I noticed this in the discussion. If true (and can anyone confirm this?), that appears to be a serious outlier, i.e. double what players report other optimized professions seem to be able to achieve in similar circumstances. I must confess that I try to stay out of balance discussions, but stuff like this kinda gives the game a black eye.

Power Chrono can burst for that because the Chrono profession is the reason for the meta currently. They also die really easily. So the 24k burst on the golem means almost nothing. It is nearly impossible in solo conditions. Also, Chrono is not the easiest profession to play.

I mean, I did not have much problem with my Mesmer but there is a reason people say "save your 80 boost for your Mesmer" :P

Cheers!

[Nerah.8235]

@"Shivvies.3921" said:I don't understand. Necro is like THE profession to go full on 'zerker. You guys have more hp than a defence traited warrior AND access to multiple tanky pets.

Solo is basically a "dps role" for all professions really shorter TTK is queen in solo and doubly so for necro.

I'd definitely go full zerker and scholars with force / accuracy on weapon.

Cheers!

The above can be true. The problem is this: that I really don't like having multiple gear sets, and I am not big on minions. After playing WvW, solo dungeons, and farming Silverwastes, I felt I needed more passive sustain, which I found in Toughness. You could argue that Vitality would better synergize with necromancer shroud mechanics, but the fairly low scaling that heals have means that it is difficult to recover quickly without a full disengage [side note: had valkyrie gear at one point]. I elected to try out higher Toughness builds as a compromise, knowing that they "sucked" in the eyes of the community. The cavalier set turned out to be pretty solid, and healing is also more "efficient" with higher Toughness (note: even then, found that a small amount of Healing Power was beneficial, hence the crusader gear).

The minions issue is more of a personal thing. I find that they just are not very effective in any type of PvP, and even in PvE, I find that I really need to run other utilities on the bar (shouts, signets, spectrals) to fit my play style. I do slot in minions in some circumstances (mainly Golem) when I know that I will need to do a lot of tanking.

[Shivvies.3921]

I'd never argue against "preference." This is a game and definitely personal preferences in content that does not affect others' enjoyment are #1 reason to do anything.

That said, the reason I talked about that was basically sometimes people do not realise how EASIER they could have had it. If you have played a berserker necro with good damage runes and sigils and dislike it, it is 100% fine to go whatever you want as long as you do not think that you'll be effective in raids or fractals with that (and I'm pretty sure you do not think that at all).

What is considered to be bad by the community usually assumes the optimal conditions for a Machiavellian result. So I wouldn't take "this is bad" comments seriously.

The only problem is then it is not easy to give you a benchmark. I can only speak about benchmarks I have experience in - and I have always used glass cannon stats in solo.

Considering all these, though, 4800 dps seems pretty alright considering that is above the average I see in squads for open world. There are usually 5-10ish people who do high numbers and rest do 2-4k in open world squads against scaling bosses. This is most probably using "farming builds" though, geared towards getting the highest number of tags, so take that with a grain of salt.

Cheers!

[Shivvies.3921]

Ah, I missed your "not adjusted for gear" bit. Well, I never had a reason to test "without boons" but now I have something to do after I clean kitten poo I guess...

[Nerah.8235]

@"Shivvies.3921" said:I also do not play necro a lot but I have a pretty newbie necro in my static who does 10-12k bursts in open world without boonshare. I THINK he can sustain 8-9kish if he can just stand there and dps if that gives you an idea.

Cheers!

Yes, i can certainly burst for 15+K without might stacks. Due to the prevalence of scourges in WvW, I actually played for a while with the express aim of no boon generation (no boons=nothing to "rip" or "flip"). Interestingly, it was actually pretty fun. The old Onslaught increased your shroud AA without the quickness boon, and I slotted fully traited Signets: Spite, Locust (for speed and heals), Vampirism (good for brawling).

[Nerah.8235]

@"Shivvies.3921" said:Ah, I missed your "not adjusted for gear" bit. Well, I never had a reason to test "without boons" but now I have something to do after I clean kitten poo I guess...

Yes, it is kind of interesting to try and see what your DPS is without oustide help on the golems. I understand that the "raid buffs" package of standard boons is almost always assumed in testing for good reasons (heck, the golem area is for raiders and raiding parties), but I spend 90+% percent of my time solo (either PvE or roaming WvW, and unranked sPvP you can make a solid argument is solo play if you don't have voice chat enabled), so it is good to know what you are capable of in sustained combat.

[Shivvies.3921]

Disclaimers: I'm a semi-casual player who's just recently made it to scale 100 in fractals, never have raided and who has slow reflexes so my rotations are likely not really tight. Also this is pre coffee so with more focus I'd probably do a bit more. I kittened up a lot of chains due to it is being morning for me.

Condi Chaos Mirage (full Viper) on average golem with 1 mil HP 9k; Power Soulbeast (Berserker Assassin mix) on average golem with 1 mil HP 12k; Power Staff Daredevil (full Berserker) on average golem with 1 mil HP 9k; Power Dagger Deadeye (full Berserker) on average golem with 1 mil HP 8k.

I suspect about 40% more of these numbers would be the standard. I usually end up at 30-45% lower than the high end raiding group benchmarks.

Cheers!

[Aktium.9506]

@"Shivvies.3921" said:It is nearly impossible in solo conditions.uh huh

[Shivvies.3921]

@Aktium.9506 said:

@"Shivvies.3921" said:It is nearly impossible in solo conditions.uh huh

Sure, that is your average player with average experience doing solo overland...

Right.

[Shivvies.3921]

What I mean is REALLY good players with really good setups and a lot of experience are not benchmarks. I probably should have said "nearly impossible for most of us" instead of "nearly impossible" to be fair though.