The world should be divided into pre-full level(PVE) and full level world(PVEandPVP) world

[maddoctor.2738]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:and people who don't want to PvP get the extra detail of seeing other people duke it out.

Yes because the level up sound of someone spamming tomes close to a bank (or a merchant) isn't enough of an annoyance, now we'll have to listen to full combat sounds. And their extra particle effects too, those will make a nice addition to the already over-the-top effects we have. Btw, what about boons, heals and buffs like banners and spirits? Interaction with nearby mobs/events?

[kharmin.7683]

@"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:So the issue isn't with PvP, its more of a people problem you describe. Contrary to what you may believe, people who PvP aren't "hooligans" or something.

That's not been my limited experience out there. See my previous post.

Also, while solo roaming (I know, but I thought I'd try it once) I was downed by a player who didn't finish me; rather, he jumped up and down on my corpse, danced on it and then used the "sleep" emote to simulate -- well, use your imagination. At first I was like "Yeah, you got me haha ok" but since I couldn't WP away I had to just sit there, watch and wait. That ONE experience was enough to turn me off of competitive play in GW2 and I'm fairly confident that I'm not the only one to have had such a negative experience.

[Lonecap.4105]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:and people who don't want to PvP get the extra detail of seeing other people duke it out.

Yes because the level up sound of someone spamming tomes close to a bank (or a merchant) isn't enough of an annoyance, now we'll have to listen to full combat sounds. And their extra particle effects too, those will make a nice addition to the already over-the-top effects we have. Btw, what about boons, heals and buffs like banners and spirits? Interaction with nearby mobs/events?

You listen to that anyway if you group with people? And what about boons/heals? It would just apply to you and any non-hostile players. So far I haven't read a single reason why toggle-enabled PvP would hurt anyone.

[Lonecap.4105]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:So the issue isn't with PvP, its more of a people problem you describe. Contrary to what you may believe, people who PvP aren't "hooligans" or something.

That's not been my limited experience out there. See my previous post.

Also, while solo roaming (I know, but I thought I'd try it once) I was downed by a player who didn't finish me; rather, he jumped up and down on my corpse, danced on it and then used the "sleep" emote to simulate -- well, use your imagination. At first I was like "Yeah, you got me haha ok" but since I couldn't WP away I had to just sit there, watch and wait. That ONE experience was enough to turn me off of competitive play in GW2 and I'm fairly confident that I'm not the only one to have had such a negative experience.

I'm not really sure what there was to get upset about - he bested you and then let you rez from downed? Sounds pretty considerate to me if anything.

[maddoctor.2738]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:and people who don't want to PvP get the extra detail of seeing other people duke it out.

Yes because the level up sound of someone spamming tomes close to a bank (or a merchant) isn't enough of an annoyance, now we'll have to listen to full combat sounds. And their extra particle effects too, those will make a nice addition to the already over-the-top effects we have. Btw, what about boons, heals and buffs like banners and spirits? Interaction with nearby mobs/events?

You listen to that anyway if you group with people? And what about boons/heals? It would just apply to you and any non-hostile players. So far I haven't read a single reason why toggle-enabled PvP would hurt anyone.

Listen to what? The noise and the particle effects? When I'm with people they appear when I want them to (during actual fights) not two random strangers starting fighting around me and covering my screen with their clutter. As for the buffs, it's the other way around, the two dueling being affected by others, not how they affect others. And how about the interaction with events? Will a dueling person scale events as normal? But what if their buffs affect others (and their damage too), that would make some people toggle for PVP, buff their friends while they do content, so as not to over scale events. If they don't contribute to scaling, then all they do is contribute to screen clutter and annoyance? So far I haven't read a single reason why toggle-enabled PVP should exist.

[kharmin.7683]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:So the issue isn't with PvP, its more of a people problem you describe. Contrary to what you may believe, people who PvP aren't "hooligans" or something.

That's not been my limited experience out there. See my previous post.

Also, while solo roaming (I know, but I thought I'd try it once) I was downed by a player who didn't finish me; rather, he jumped up and down on my corpse, danced on it and then used the "sleep" emote to simulate -- well, use your imagination. At first I was like "Yeah, you got me haha ok" but since I couldn't WP away I had to just sit there, watch and wait. That ONE experience was enough to turn me off of competitive play in GW2 and I'm fairly confident that I'm not the only one to have had such a negative experience.

I'm not really sure what there was to get upset about - he bested you and then let you rez from downed? Sounds pretty considerate to me if anything.No, he didn't let me rez. That's the point. IMO, he should have just used a finisher and moved on.

EDIT and to be clear, being bested isn't what turned me off. It was the after-party on my corpse.

[Lonecap.4105]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:So the issue isn't with PvP, its more of a people problem you describe. Contrary to what you may believe, people who PvP aren't "hooligans" or something.

That's not been my limited experience out there. See my previous post.

Also, while solo roaming (I know, but I thought I'd try it once) I was downed by a player who didn't finish me; rather, he jumped up and down on my corpse, danced on it and then used the "sleep" emote to simulate -- well, use your imagination. At first I was like "Yeah, you got me haha ok" but since I couldn't WP away I had to just sit there, watch and wait. That ONE experience was enough to turn me off of competitive play in GW2 and I'm fairly confident that I'm not the only one to have had such a negative experience.

I'm not really sure what there was to get upset about - he bested you and then let you rez from downed? Sounds pretty considerate to me if anything.No, he didn't let me rez. That's the point. IMO, he should have just used a finisher and moved on.

EDIT and to be clear, being bested isn't what turned me off. It was the after-party on my corpse.

Do you think it might have been a bit over-sensitive to be turned off from the gamemode just because he jokingly /emoted? If he had whispered and harassed you I could understand.

[kharmin.7683]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Do you think it might have been a bit over-sensitive to be turned off from the gamemode just because he jokingly /emoted? If he had whispered and harassed you I could understand.Perhaps, but I play GW2 for fun, and that experience was not fun for me. {shrug} I didn't find it offensive enough to report him. I just realized that if I wanted to play in that environment, then this was one of the things I would have to deal with -- and I would rather do something else in GW2 that is fun for me.

So, to the OP's point, I would not like to see PvP elements in OWPvE because, for me, it would depreciate my level of fun.

[Zeefa.3915]

No PvP in my PvE thank you.
Call it a kneejerk reaction all you want, I don't want it and many others don't either. Having 0 contact to the PvP side of the game is just perfect for me.

[Lonecap.4105]

@"Zeefa.3915" said:No PvP in my PvE thank you.

Call it a kneejerk reaction all you want, I don't want it and many others don't either. Having 0 contact to the PvP side of the game is just perfect for me.

Fair enough, just see a lot of "emotional" posts here that don't come across so good, people getting insta-angry at the mere mention of something which is opt-in.

[Danikat.8537]

I have to agree with the people saying they've never seen this done well. When I first started Ultima Online PvP was still possible everywhere and the advice I got from almost everyone was to avoid other players if you weren't sure of their intentions. (The other advice was to join a gank squad for 'easy loot'.) Shortly after I started they gave everyone the option to move freely between a PvP enabled map and a pure PvE one and then the advice became to never, ever go to the PvP one unless you wanted to be ganked, which of course no one did. Whenever I did go there (I was curious - and on a throwaway character with nothing worth stealing) it was literally empty - it turned out all the people who "loved PvP" actually loved ganking easy targets so when the PvE players left they did too.

Even heavily toned down versions don't seem to work well. For example Elder Scrolls Online doesn't have actual PvP everywhere, but it does have the option to challenge someone to a duel...unless they've got that option disabled. At first there were duel everywhere (which was extremely annoying because it was literally everywhere, like right in front of the door to the bank so you had to wade through the effects spam to go in) but once the novelty wore off it died down a lot. These days (about 2 years after it was added) the convention on the EU servers seems to be that if you want to duel you'll have to go to one of a few 'dedicated' spots if you want to find anyone who hasn't disabled it. Or use the PvP arenas (Battlegrounds)...if you don't mind the fact that you'll be fighting the same few people over and over because so few people want to do it.

I realise PvPers believe PvP is the best part of any game and if only they could force all the PvE players to do it they'd suddenly realise that actually they love getting killed over and over by someone with a gimmick build designed to do nothing else and then there would be more people to play against in PvP modes. But in practice it just doesn't work like that. You can't force people to like something and removing any choice in whether they participate is just going to drive them away.

Especially in GW2 which was specifically advertised as having entirely separate PvE and PvP. If I remember correctly what they said is you should always be happy to see another person in PvE maps. Changing that might attract some people who like pure PvP games, but it would also lose all the people who like GW2 specifically because it's not one of those games.

@Astyrah.4015 said:EDIT: NCSoft (asian) owns Anet, and a lot of eastern games with open world PvP have no toggle-off. so if they ever do add it, there's a small chance that it'd go that way too but who knows

NCSoft own Anet but as far as I know they don't have any direct involvement in the development of GW2. It's possible it's all kept quiet but I've never heard of Anet saying a decision was made by NCSoft or they were told they had to do things a certain way so it would be surprising if they got to make a decision like this.

[Wisty.4135]

I have WvW for open pvp. I don't ever play WvW unless I need a gift of battle for my legendaries, that I then use to dunk on people in 5's, a mode I'm in constantly. Open world has too much disparity between builds, classes, stats, and even terrain-cheese to be fun, even in the spirit of "competition." I would say no to open PvP. Keep it in the mists.

As I write that, I know those exist in sPvP maps as well as WvW, but those seem more intended inclusions for LoS breaks and no-port spots, etc.

[Ardid.7203]

Lets support the WvW improvements instead, OP. It has so much potential. It just needs way more love.

[Dante.1763]

I will wholeheartedly disagree with this suggestion, but ill point to Danikats post as to why instead of typing out everything theyve said.

[Linken.6345]

@"kharmin.7683" said:Me and a few others were camped out waiting on the WvW veteran for the creature slayer daily when an entire 40+ "enemy" squad rolled in and ganked us. It only upset me in that the three or four of us were no threat to whatever was going on and yet were targeted; HOWEVER, we were in the PvP environment and as such should expect to be ganked. I thought that it was kitten of them, but who was I to really complain? It's why I don't like to play WvW in the first place.

I really do not want this type of game-style to be somehow merged into PvE.

Well if there was a invasion defender daily then some in that zerg got that done. =)

[Mazreal Blackknight.1564]

PvP already has 2 options, the Mists and WvW a third is not needed.

[Linken.6345]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:and people who don't want to PvP get the extra detail of seeing other people duke it out.

Yes because the level up sound of someone spamming tomes close to a bank (or a merchant) isn't enough of an annoyance, now we'll have to listen to full combat sounds. And their extra particle effects too, those will make a nice addition to the already over-the-top effects we have. Btw, what about boons, heals and buffs like banners and spirits? Interaction with nearby mobs/events?

You listen to that anyway if you group with people? And what about boons/heals? It would just apply to you and any non-hostile players. So far I haven't read a single reason why toggle-enabled PvP would hurt anyone.

already asked.

[Khisanth.2948]

Lets spend time and money enticing less than 40% of our customers in order to alienate the other 60%. This is pure genius.

[Blude.6812]

This has been discussed many many times here (hint use search function) and dismissed by most.

[Cedric Ambidexter.9174]

@starhunter.6015 said:No, cause even in the long run even WoW has seen that full pvp worlds are not where the most players are . We already have WvWvW which is open world style pvp. Sure we can use new maps for that mode, maybe even bigger ones .

WvW is horrible: all that running around and repetitive boring content...

[DeanBB.4268]

We already have a toggle for PvP mode - two actually. You click on their icons up top and are moved to either PvP or WvW. Done!

At least in those modes you know what you are getting into and there is at least a chance of equal gear (particularly PvP). What about people with no mounts, no gliding?

And PvE is designed to be cooperative, sharing boons, heals, cleanses, etc. Anyway, way back at the beginning of this thread, JaFW nailed it with the quote from Anet. 'Nuff said.

[Donutdude.9582]

After seeing and experiencing this PvPvE for many years in one of NCSoft's titles, I am going to wholeheartedly disagree with this post. Guild Wars as a gaming franchise has always handled PvP superbly and it should not be handled any differently going forward.

[Vayne.8563]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Honestly I would love this. I hate how we who enjoy open world PvP are stuffed into an ugly shoebox called WvW. Many beautiful maps go wasted and neglected.

Many in this topic have a knee jerk reaction, but the answer is obvious: there would be a self enabled toggle that flags you for PvP. So anyone that wants to fight in their adventures can do so, and people who don't want to PvP get the extra detail of seeing other people duke it out.

Reactions you don't agree with are not kneejerk. I can think of other reasons not to just have a flag. For example, two people dueling in the open world and hitting something that's in an event that spawns will scale the event for the one guy near them who's not flagged who may be doing it. There were flags in Rift too and it didn't work, even on a PVE only server. There were still times and issues where PvP i nterfered in what I was doing. My experience of a system with flags on a PVE server doesn't equate to a knee jerk reaction. It's an experience I'm in no way anxious to repeat.

It's kneejerk because they were acting like OP was suggesting an always-enabled PvP toggle, which is obviously silly and wouldn't work. Open world PvP in most games has a toggle.

You say it interfered in your PvE experience even when there is a toggle, but you don't elaborate how that could happen. It would be exactly as the game is now, except some people would be engaging in duels and fights. The "scaling" example you give doesn't really work, because people can just come and stand at your event right now and scale it anyway, nothing to do with PvP.

The fact is toggle-enabled open world PvP hurts nobody.

Well for one thing, I healed someone in my party, but it was an AOE heal, so another person got healed too. Which means that the game now flagged me for PvP, since healing someone flagged for PvP means you're flagged for PvP. Which means I can get killed. In a game where healing doesn't just affect your party, like Rift, people will intentionally get you to heal someone, or use condition removal you get flagged you get killed. If this isn't the case, a person who is flagged can have someone heal them, while fighting someone else, gaining a clear advantage.

It's not as cut and dried as you think. I died a number of times while not intentionally flagged for PvP, so no, it's not a knee jerk response. It's something that was factually bad for me, whether or not I provided details, which I now have.

There were other issues too, but I can't necessarily remember all of them. But getting flagged when I was healing a party member, which incidentally healed someone else is definitely an issue. And I wouldn't want 1 second to developer time taken away from what makes this game special to turn it into a game other people are playing that is actually designed for open world PvP. If you want to fight people, roam in WvW. That's what it's there for.

[Vayne.8563]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Honestly I would love this. I hate how we who enjoy open world PvP are stuffed into an ugly shoebox called WvW. Many beautiful maps go wasted and neglected.

Many in this topic have a knee jerk reaction, but the answer is obvious: there would be a self enabled toggle that flags you for PvP. So anyone that wants to fight in their adventures can do so, and people who don't want to PvP get the extra detail of seeing other people duke it out.

Reactions you don't agree with are not kneejerk. I can think of other reasons not to just have a flag. For example, two people dueling in the open world and hitting something that's in an event that spawns will scale the event for the one guy near them who's not flagged who may be doing it. There were flags in Rift too and it didn't work, even on a PVE only server. There were still times and issues where PvP i nterfered in what I was doing. My experience of a system with flags on a PVE server doesn't equate to a knee jerk reaction. It's an experience I'm in no way anxious to repeat.

It's kneejerk because they were acting like OP was suggesting an always-enabled PvP toggle, which is obviously silly and wouldn't work. Open world PvP in most games has a toggle.

You say it interfered in your PvE experience even when there is a toggle, but you don't elaborate how that could happen. It would be exactly as the game is now, except some people would be engaging in duels and fights. The "scaling" example you give doesn't really work, because people can just come and stand at your event right now and scale it anyway, nothing to do with PvP.

The fact is toggle-enabled open world PvP hurts nobody.

Experience from other games suggests it does

Firstly even with a toggle players spam pm or map chat. That requires having to keep blocking people or turning on/off chat just to avoid those

Secondly, whilst pve is not without it's fair share of this, pvp brings with it a level of toxicity into open world players simply don't want to see or have around them. It's not really fair to for them to have to keep blocking and turning off chats to avoid the spam and arguments etc etc when it isn't a feature many want to see around them.

Open world pvp doesn't really add anything. Open World is all about cooperation, pvp is all about competition. The two don't blend well when thrown together in an MMO and I've yet to see an MMO pull a toggle off successfully and avoid these issues. We have 2 modes for pvp. Bringing more elements of pve to pvp wouldn't be welcomed and it is to be expected that bringing pvp to pve should be equally shunned.

So the issue isn't with PvP, its more of a people problem you describe. Contrary to what you may believe, people who PvP aren't "hooligans" or something.

It doesn't matter if most people aren't hooligans. Giving people more tools to grief, is giving people more tools to grief and believe me, people who want to grief will find ways to grief. Not giving them those tools, even if they are a minority, improves the quality of life for people trying to enjoy the game as it was designed. Remember, you're suggesting a major design change.

I agree with you. Most PvPers are nice guys. The problem is the loudest, most obnoxious portion of any player base will find ways to make something that should be fun a problem. This is why we can't have nice things.

[Urud.4925]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:So the issue isn't with PvP, its more of a people problem you describe. Contrary to what you may believe, people who PvP aren't "hooligans" or something.

That's not been my limited experience out there. See my previous post.

Also, while solo roaming (I know, but I thought I'd try it once) I was downed by a player who didn't finish me; rather, he jumped up and down on my corpse, danced on it and then used the "sleep" emote to simulate -- well, use your imagination. At first I was like "Yeah, you got me haha ok" but since I couldn't WP away I had to just sit there, watch and wait. That ONE experience was enough to turn me off of competitive play in GW2 and I'm fairly confident that I'm not the only one to have had such a negative experience.

I'm not really sure what there was to get upset about - he bested you and then let you rez from downed? Sounds pretty considerate to me if anything.No, he didn't let me rez. That's the point. IMO, he should have just used a finisher and moved on.

EDIT and to be clear, being bested isn't what turned me off. It was the after-party on my corpse.

Do you think it might have been a bit over-sensitive to be turned off from the gamemode just because he jokingly /emoted? If he had whispered and harassed you I could understand.

It's a form of mocking and in many games is (rightfully) forbidden. It's quite common, and it also happened to me, but this doesn't mean that it's fine. Jumping on the corpse of your enemy or use emotes (other than /bow) is just toxic behaviour. When I capture a camp, I just wait for the cap without doing anything (often even turning him my shoulders - it's a form of respect). Same in WvW, just finish him and go away. Forcing the dead one to watch your funny jokes is funny only for you.

As for the toggle, I never played a game with this feature, so I can't really say. But if most of the players disabled the PvP, what would be the gain? PvPers would just have to wander around more to find an opponent willing to fight. Wouldn't be better to add more maps/quests/content in general in WvW? At least there you don't have to pay attention to any toggle/tag. But I'm curious to know how it worked in other MMOs.