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Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already


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@Tzarakiel.7490 said:Half the new players I've talked to wanted to try raids before they found out that it was basically impossible. Most players I've met wanted to try raids, but they could never find an entry point into the raid community.The reason why most players don't talk about raids is because they have given up on the raid community.

Yet most training runs are devoid of new players. What an oxymoron.

May I ask, what effort was invested from those said players? Did any of them join a guild which did training runs or a discord channel dedicated to raids? Or was it more of a: I'll join random experienced groups and hope no one notices?

I've found that in-game, players who are interested in raiding and when pointed to join a training run, usually succeed. That is subjective experience though.

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Some people simply want to see a rift in the community and huge game breaking problems. As those might justify the removal or rework of content they personally dislike or more like having raid exclusive rewards avaible in content they like.The majority of pro-raiding and anti-raiding talk does indeed seem to happen on the forums. Most people in the game care as much about raids as they do about Esports, which is basically not at all. Nor do they quit the game over the existence of niche content.

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Speaking as a ten year WoW player, if you think the end game environment in GW2 is toxic and "tearing the community apart", then you need to go over there a bit and see what elitist end-gamer toxicity really is. In WoW, the end game is tiered raiding or PVP, and you can either keep up or shut up. In GW2, the end game is much more open and up to the individual player. People in GW2 are much more free to treat the game as a game, and not an unpaid job like WoW raiding was. As a result, GW2 arguably has the best community I have ever seen anywhere in any game. Yes, raider elitism is annoying. But in this game, those people are a minority, so ignore them. If they're tearing apart the community, which I don't see, it's only because people are giving them more attention than they're due.

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Ive had some practise with guilds, a few friendly raidpugs that could take me as a support allthough i lack experience and joined some few callouts in aerodome that invites new raiders into their groups.Only thing that is required is really that you got some basic PvE mechanics, prefferably some experience from t3-t4 fracs, maybe done some harder worldbosses/bountys and stuff so you recognize animations/channels/effects to a certain extent and bring a decent profession with a decent build to the encounter.

AAND most important of all is probably that you are positive, alert and actually listen to what your more experienced squaddies have to say.

I really dont see anything wrong with raids or fractals.

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@"Jimbru.6014" said:Speaking as a ten year WoW player, if you think the end game environment in GW2 is toxic and "tearing the community apart", then you need to go over there a bit and see what elitist end-gamer toxicity really is. In WoW, the end game is tiered raiding or PVP, and you can either keep up or shut up. In GW2, the end game is much more open and up to the individual player. People in GW2 are much more free to treat the game as a game, and not an unpaid job like WoW raiding was. As a result, GW2 arguably has the best community I have ever seen anywhere in any game. Yes, raider elitism is annoying. But in this game, those people are a minority, so ignore them. If they're tearing apart the community, which I don't see, it's only because people are giving them more attention than they're due.

I'd say the same thing about ESO, and DCUO. Those three games' end game communities. Make GW2's look like innocent toddlers. GW2 by far has one of the most relaxing and chill communities, out of the many MMOs I've played over the past 19 years.

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@Tzarakiel.7490 said:Half the new players I've talked to wanted to try raids before they found out that it was basically impossible. Most players I've met wanted to try raids, but they could >never find an entry point into the raid community.

Speaking for EU here:Training runs fill pretty fast and I doubt that any training guild has problems recruiting people. At least the ones I have been in.Most players that complain about it don't spend the time and actually research. I do agree, that its not their job to go out of their way and look for a raiding guild outside of the game. The game could definitely do a better job at advertising this stuff. However, if you don't want to go out of your way and look for a raiding guild via a quick google search, don't expect the raiding community to go around and ask everyone if they would be interested in a raiding guild.

I'd consider myself pretty helpful ingame. If someone has a question, ill answer it. Hell, id even run dungeons/fractals/raids with you if I have the time, simply because this person is asking questions and probably wants to learn something. Just don't expect me to tell you everything if you are not even asking. If people aren't asking, I won't consider them worth my time.

The reason why most players don't talk about raids is because they have given up on the raid community.

The reason why most players don't talk about raids is that they simply don't care. I see a lot of people claiming to be casual, yet they are engaging in a lot of topics on this forum. Wake up dude. If you engage in a lot of topics in this forum, you're not really casual. The actual casuals that play the game don't bother with raids since they have a lot to do. They simply dont need them.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Kanok.3027 said:Tearing apart the community? Really?Yes. It has already happened. I have seen firsthand several guilds that completely disintegrated over the issue, and some more that survived, but were hit really hard and never really recovered.

I'm all over the place in this game and I've rarely ever seen people even talk about raids. I usually see it only on here and very rarely.Sure. that's because the rift has already happened. There
was
a lot of talking within first year or two after raids were inroduced. It stopped, because the rift has grown so big there's nothing even to talk about. Talk requires some common ground, after all, and those split communities have now almost nothing in common with each other.

In short, introducing raids caused some really negative impact on the community. Whether the end result was a net negative or not may be up to debate, but the fact that some negative consequences did happen isn't.

While I agree that some negative probably happened, this is true for every update.

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@"Tzarakiel.7490" said:Half the new players I've talked to wanted to try raids before they found out that it was basically impossible. Most players I've met wanted to try raids, but they could never find an entry point into the raid community.

Might need to elaborate on that, but try to help and guide them till the end if you're really up to it. Don't take this in a bad way; Guide them on how to register for discord and how to use it get into raids. I do know a handful a friends of mine that's not bothered to look up on how to setup for a raid training/ new player's raid. (They got confused and give up trying on how to join using discord). While a new player just started 2 months ago (a random player I met while teaching fractal, in-game friend now) is having 4 pieces of legendary armor from training runs. And nope, never helped him with any raids. He joined the raid training group on his own after he found out about it. If your friend is having a problem finding the entry point, the approach might be wrong.

If the player is interested, they won't just give up (imo). Patience is required, as you know there are roles-requirement to be filled in raids and this requires some organizing/setting up. Can't just gather 10 random and hope for a success, therefore new players will have problem gathering players to start an own group. Which is a problem for new players, you need to be experienced to lead and X amount of players.

The reason why most players don't talk about raids is because they have given up on the raid community.

True to a certain extend, unlikely someone will mention something they've let go. But honestly, there's nothing to talk about unless they're really involved. "I killed Boss" is no different from "I killed Bounty", pointless to share it out. Usually what happened in a raid, is experienced and stays among the members in the raid. I fought with Balthazar, no one will understand except for the person doing the story achievement with me. There will be limited talks between a raider and a non-raider, and there will be some talks between raiders to raiders (mostly screw ups or funny things that happened during raid).

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@Astralporing.1957 said:I guess we're playing completely different games then. Which, by the way, just proves my point about the split existing and being really massive. It's apparently so big that you can't even see the other side anymore.

I play all modes, how is there a massive split?

To the starter people can choose with whom they play and form communities. You can change your effort and fit in or find a group that accepts you right now. Alot of the game does not require you to play together raids are the exception. Which is why joining requires more effort.

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@DutchRiders.2871 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:I guess we're playing completely different games then. Which, by the way, just proves my point about the split existing and being really massive. It's apparently so big that you can't even see the other side anymore.

I play all modes, how is there a massive split?It's not a split between modes. It's a split between players. The very fact that you can have here players arguing that something that for others is everyday occurence doesn't exist, while both are playing the same content is a proof enough.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:I guess we're playing completely different games then. Which, by the way, just proves my point about the split existing and being really massive. It's apparently so big that you can't even see the other side anymore.

I play all modes, how is there a massive split?It's not a split between modes. It's a split between players. The very fact that you can have here players arguing that something that for others is everyday occurence doesn't exist, while both are playing the same content is a proof enough.

While I get you're argument, it's not completely true in the sense that most people are arguing that the split is not affecting enough people to Warrant seeing it as a problem.

BTW if I start a random topic about "random thing" is causing a split I could use the same argument because most people would be arguing ING about it as long as enough people care about the topic

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If it is about wanting experienced players, no, it isn't just raid. It is a widespread culture in gw2, people who are willing to train newbies are few in numbers. Even if there are people who will train newbies, not everyone are there because they want to help, some are they to look good. In the chinese culture, we call it realitas or 现实

In other words, it isn't something unique in gw2, it is something happening in the world but just happen to be downright obvious in gw2. As for how you gonna change that culture which is basically changing the personality or mentality of individuals. All I can say that is not possible. You can highlight it but you never gonna change it, you can only choose to be one not like them and band up like-minded players to create such environment for yourself and like-minded people.

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@"qwerty.8943" said:I wish I could post this anonymously....

I write this as a semi-casual, semi-serious player. I've played GW2 off-and-on since launch. I've also raided regularly, in other games, at "competent" levels, but never at top-tier / world-first / competitive levels....In those times, I loved raiding....I loved figuring out that last 1% of mechanics, or positioning. or build....that let us finally beat that "impossible" boss.....and I never gave 2 kitten about the gear! Gear was only a means to an end....to allow us to kill that boss, and have more fun.

But in GW2....I see such a huge rift between raiders and not-raiders.....a rift that grows with every update, every raid...

Even in my own guilds, when recruiting for their raid team(s)....they are only interested in "experienced" raiders. I understand their view...they did their time in PUG raids back in 2016 and 2017, learning mechanics and classes and how to build a raid team. They don't want to waste infinitely - 1 sec training others! But at the same time, when I look in LFG, every raid wants me to ping a trophy count...to prove to them that I have tons of kill experience, in every raid.. Or they want to sell me boss kills.....something I'd never, ever, consider paying for!

So what is a 'semi-casual', "competent-but-not-uber DPS", though "wants-to-learn" supposed to do?

What reason do you desire being anonymous here? If you cannot stand behind the comments you make one would question if you should be making them.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tzarakiel.7490 said:Half the new players I've talked to wanted to try raids before they found out that it was basically impossible. Most players I've met wanted to try raids, but they could never find an entry point into the raid community.The reason why most players don't talk about raids is because they have given up on the raid community.

Yet most training runs are devoid of new players. What an oxymoron.

May I ask, what effort was invested from those said players? Did any of them join a guild which did training runs or a discord channel dedicated to raids? Or was it more of a: I'll join random experienced groups and hope no one notices?

I've found that in-game, players who are interested in raiding and when pointed to join a training run, usually succeed. That is subjective experience though.

I can honestly say that even to get into a raid training group i had trouble, in the two guilds that im in that do raids simply due to lack of player interest in trying to learn raids, we barely have enough players to fill a raid training group. The only reason i get into the semi static group im with now is because im really good friends with the group leader, and he knows that im good at playing the game, if i didnt have that i wouldnt have ever gotten in.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Kanok.3027 said:Tearing apart the community? Really?Yes. It has already happened. I have seen firsthand several guilds that completely disintegrated over the issue, and some more that survived, but were hit really hard and never really recovered.

I'm all over the place in this game and I've rarely ever seen people even talk about raids. I usually see it only on here and very rarely.Sure. that's because the rift has already happened. There
was
a lot of talking within first year or two after raids were inroduced. It stopped, because the rift has grown so big there's nothing even to talk about. Talk requires some common ground, after all, and those split communities have now almost nothing in common with each other.

In short, introducing raids caused some really negative impact on the community. Whether the end result was a net negative or not may be up to debate, but the fact that some negative consequences did happen isn't.

Some of those guilds got destroyed becouse raids are released so slow not becouse raids entered the game Quantify as an example

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It's pretty easy to ignore raids as a casual. Didn't they change it so that you aren't locked out of getting spirit shards if the raid mastery is still locked? I think that was maybe the only thing that bugged any substantial number of non-raiders. Unless you have your heart set on getting the PvE legendary armor, or really want to see the story of the raid, you aren't really penalized for not participating.

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@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Linken.6345 said:As blocki says join training raids or put up your own training, or new people learning lfgs.Just dont expect to kill all the bosses you train on the first day mate.

Or the dev's could just make it require way less effort and nerf it all or come out with an easier difficulty.

That will probably never happen, though an easier difficulty with accurate rewards for the easier fights would be nice to see for a training option.

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If they didn't have raids, you'd have elitists in dungeons or fractals or whatnot. The good thing about raids is they're confined there now.

As for the rest, well, some people take this game way too seriously. And I am not talking about serious raiders. I'm talking about people who feel "compelled" to do content that requires a lot more effort, but aren't really willing to put the effort. They have the disadvantage of treating the game like a hardcore player, but can't play the game like one-- the worst of both worlds.

I've never given a damn about raids since day one. I know it wasn't for me, and I wasn't able to put the effort. But it's never stopped me from playing the game.

I've seen people kitten about this game incessantly for years about not being able to do things. They don't seem to even enjoy playing the game. Games are for fun. If you constantly slave away in a game without joy, that's what we call an addiction. This is bad. Step away.

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@perilisk.1874 said:It's pretty easy to ignore raids as a casual. Didn't they change it so that you aren't locked out of getting spirit shards if the raid mastery is still locked? I think that was maybe the only thing that bugged any substantial number of non-raiders. Unless you have your heart set on getting the PvE legendary armor, or really want to see the story of the raid, you aren't really penalized for not participating.

You are never actually locked out of spirit shards since you also get them as random drops.

There are probably enough videos around to cover the story.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:If they didn't have raids, you'd have elitists in dungeons or fractals or whatnot. The good thing about raids is they're confined there now.

I seriously dont think theyre confined anywhere. Its really just the content that both needs large amount of repitition for some of the interesting rewards and require some rather mild coordination.

Since most people dont have that much time putting requirements is just one way to filter ppl so their success chance is higher and take less time. They dont want to bother explaining the whole thing everytime and rather just play.

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