Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Well, if the LS completion rates are a representative of the overall population, then you're right. We have a much bigger problem than raids dying out: a

game

dying out(because a loss of a third of the playerbase in so short of a time is a really, really worrying sign).

They probably don't account for PVP and WVW exclusive players, but everyone else should be there, or do you expect Raiders to not care about the Episodes? Not even enough to finish them?No, i just don't expect the huge majority of casual players to even use the site. And that shifts the results towards statistics covering just the more hardcore part of the community. Whether that is representative of the rest of the game, as far as LS goes, i don't know. If it is, then it

is

a major reason to worry.

Obviously GW2 doesn't have only 200k accounts, the vast majority doesn't know gw2eff even exist. By everyone else I didn't mean every player, more like the PVE players. And I believe PVE players do most of PVE and a "I'm just running Raids" kind of player is super rare (I haven't seen any at least)

Just to be fair with the game, these are the statistics since Heart of Thorns:Heart of Thorns: 66.937%Out of the Shadows: 60.676%Rising Flames: 58.131%A Crack in the Ice: 56.343%The Head of the Snake: 51.405%Flashpoint: 50.272%One Path Ends: 47.145%Path of Fire: 59.476%Daybreak: 44.121%A Bug in the System: 38.387%Long Live the Lich: 34.108%A Star to Guide Us: 26.049%

As you can see Path of Fire has a much higher completion rate than all but one Living World episode (and that by a 2% difference). Given how Anet is doing better financially (according to revenue reports), we can say that many gw2eff players stopped playing (so rates are lower) and not enough new players make accounts on that site anymore, although the game does get lots of new accounts as we can see on the forums (many new people posting). The other "solution" is that although the population is getting lower and lower, they spend more and more, resulting in a revenue increase. Now which one is it? Who knows.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@maddoctor.2738 said:Just to be fair with the game, these are the statistics since Heart of Thorns:Heart of Thorns: 66.937%Out of the Shadows: 60.676%Rising Flames: 58.131%A Crack in the Ice: 56.343%The Head of the Snake: 51.405%Flashpoint: 50.272%One Path Ends: 47.145%Path of Fire: 59.476%Daybreak: 44.121%A Bug in the System: 38,387%Long Live the Lich: 34.108%A Star to Guide Us: 26.049%

Just to be a bit more accurate than completion rates, and drawing random conclusions, some of the starting rates (too lazy to find them all):It is still not including people who have those unlocked, who havent, but are still playing ofcourse.And not accounting for age of the content either.

Heart of Thorns: 92,031%Path of Fire: 76,485%Daybreak: 54,070%A Bug in the System: 44,023%Long Live the Lich: 42.791%A Star to Guide Us: 31,455%

Also activity % of a random 24h in a random weekend (sort of random, extra life event) : 28,520%

Also interesting is the birthdays %s:1y: 892y: 813y: 714y: 585y: 466y: 24

Why you guys stop at completion % of story is weird to me. So much talk about this and that being the right data but no one actually looking it up.

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

This entire thread is silly and everyone needs to chill out.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Anet isn't making content for me, therefore they are not making content for anyone.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"FrizzFreston.5290" said:Just to be a bit more accurate than completion rates, and drawing random conclusions, some of the starting rates (too lazy to find them all):

Well the idea was to show how many -completed- the Raids, not how many entered them. If you want to see how many started an episode, then you could also use the amount of players that killed the first boss of a raid wing at least since there is no achievement for simply entering a Raid wing. I thought comparing the completion of a raid wing with the completion of an episode would be more appropriate than comparing how many started an episode with how many completed a raid wing. To keep the comparison as similar as possible.

Here, I'll post the "complete" results, starting/completing:Heart of Thorns: 92.031% / 66.937%Out of the Shadows: 68.238% / 60.676%Rising Flames: 63.353% / 58.131%A Crack in the Ice: 63.931% / 56.343%The Head of the Snake: 60.204% / 51.405%Flashpoint: 56.464% / 50.272%One Path Ends: 52.946% / 47.145%Path of Fire: 76.878% / 59.476%Daybreak: 54.070% / 44.121%A Bug in the System: 44.023% / 38,387%Long Live the Lich: 42.791% / 34.108%A Star to Guide Us: 31.455% / 26.049%

It doesn't really change my conclusion, only reinforcing it by showing that more players started Path of Fire, than Out of the Shadows.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"FrizzFreston.5290" said:Just to be a bit more accurate than completion rates, and drawing random conclusions, some of the starting rates (too lazy to find them all):

Well the idea was to show how many -completed- the Raids, not how many entered them. If you want to see how many started an episode, then you could also use the amount of players that killed the first boss of a raid wing at least since there is no achievement for simply entering a Raid wing. I thought comparing the completion of a raid wing with the completion of an episode would be more appropriate than comparing how many started an episode with how many completed a raid wing. To keep the comparison as similar as possible.

Here, I'll post the "complete" results, starting/completing:

Heart of Thorns: 92.031% / 66.937%

Out of the Shadows: 68.238% / 60.676%Rising Flames: 63.353% / 58.131%A Crack in the Ice: 63.931% / 56.343%The Head of the Snake: 60.204% / 51.405%Flashpoint: 56.464% / 50.272%One Path Ends: 52.946% / 47.145%

Path of Fire: 76.878% / 59.476%

Daybreak: 54.070% / 44.121%A Bug in the System: 44.023% / 38,387%Long Live the Lich: 42.791% / 34.108%A Star to Guide Us: 31.455% / 26.049%

It doesn't really change my conclusion, only reinforcing it by showing that more players started Path of Fire, than Out of the Shadows.

There’s another factor in a discussion of percent done, how much time has elapsed for each.

Heart of Thorns was released 3 years ago. Path of Fire was released 1 year ago. That means players have had two more years to complete Heart of Thorns achievements than Path of Fire, and for all we know by looking at gw2efficiency the starting/completion rates for Heart of Thorns was the same or lower at the one year mark. That goes the same for all Living Story episodes, the longer the time has elapsed the higher the starting/completion rates will be because of people starting and finishing behind the main, initial completions. Looking at completion rates without factoring the difference in elapsed time for each or knowing what percent of players are doing it, but slower, means those numbers are not accurate as raw numbers.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:There’s another factor in a discussion of percent done, how much time has elapsed for each.

This factor can be applied to Raids too :)Keep in mind that I used the episode completion rates to counter the doom and gloom that Raids are losing interest because Wing 6 (available for 2 months) has far lower (arguable) completion rates than Wing 5 (which has been available for 1 year)

[Salicia.5943]

Raids are not destroying the game. The players are destroying it. The GW2 community as a whole has immensely gotten more mouthier, rude, unhelpful, toxic, I could go on. Take matriarch for example, the reason why she flies up and becomes untlattackable is failure to cc. Roll this over to a raid boss where breaking the cc bar is required or you insta wipe. Nobody wants to spend 3 hours on a raid boss they have killed already because someone's dps is too low or they are failing mechanics because they cannot comprehend mechanics or multiple things at once. Sit in a corner doing nothing for 3 hours, no music no talking, no interacting. Then get up and tell me you are happy and accomplished with the time you just wasted with no reward.

The divide for casual players vs experienced will always be there. Think of it from the point of view as a gym membership. You want that body? Put the work in. You want to be good at gw2 raids? Put the work in. If you don't like how the raiding community us then don't raid. There are plenty of beginning raid guilds out there with raid training discords. Everyone in here asking "What is the raid training discord?" Is a casual human being. Google. Use the brain. Be a go getter and figure it out for yourself.

LFG is not a tool for the casual player. Spare the experienced people and go look else where in training discords or start your own squad. You do not need a commander tag. Put "Semi experienced VG full of casuals chill LF 1 tank 1 healer" and go. If you don't get a boss kill... hmm I wonder why?

Strive to be a better person. Is all it boils down to whether you are a toxic raider, control yourself and remember you were once in their shoes. Or a casual, don't get offended so easily that something isn't fair.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@"Salicia.5943" said:

The divide for casual players vs experienced will always be there. Think of it from the point of view as a gym membership. You want that body? Put the work in. You want to be good at gw2 raids? Put the work in. If you don't like how the raiding community us then don't raid. There are plenty of beginning raid guilds out there with raid training discords. Everyone in here asking "What is the raid training discord?" Is a casual human being. Google. Use the brain. Be a go getter and figure it out for yourself.

LFG is not a tool for the casual player.

While this is true for raiding, LFG tools in some other games (LFR, for instance), and in the other parts of GW2 PvE (barring maybe T4 FotM) very much are tools for the drop-in PWYW player.

... or start your own squad. You do not need a commander tag. Put "Semi experienced VG full of casuals chill LF 1 tank 1 healer" and go. If you don't get a boss kill... hmm I wonder why?

The nature of raid content is that it is aimed at the dedicated player. At this late date, it's going to be exponentially harder to find enough dedicated players to stick around long enough to work through a beginning raider learning curve. The long-time dedicated players, by definition, started raids when they first dropped. New players who are so dedicated are going to be willing to work through training groups as a means to get up to speed. The leftovers are those who want to raid but lack the dedication to do what the raiding community expects. The pity is that gaming in general goes out of its way to cater to the drop-in-and-succeed mentality.

Strive to be a better person. Is all it boils down to whether you are a toxic raider, control yourself and remember you were once in their shoes. Or a casual, don't get offended so easily that something isn't fair.

While this is excellent advice, it will remain unheeded for the most part. Games are peoples' diversions, pastimes or hobbies. A lot of people -- on both sides of the dedication divide -- don't want to be thwarted, and that is not going to change.

[Salicia.5943]

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:The nature of raid content is that it is aimed at the dedicated player. At this late date, it's going to be exponentially harder to find enough dedicated players to stick around long enough to work through a beginning raider learning curve. The long-time dedicated players, by definition, started raids when they first dropped. New players who are so dedicated are going to be willing to work through training groups as a means to get up to speed. The leftovers are those who want to raid but lack the dedication to do what the raiding community expects. The pity is that gaming in general goes out of its way to cater to the drop-in-and-succeed mentality.

I disagree. There are so many experienced players in the raid scene that runs scheduled trainings for a raid boss, in a relaxed acene, will even help you with golem training. These casual players have no righs to wiggle into a more advanced group and then complain they have to ping kp. To this day I still run into Noth, from raiders inn teaching from the ground up and the group gets kills. These people are just looking in the wrong place. They don't have a dedication to figure out why things happen in a fight and that's what is wrong. I know that gaming is a "hobby" but that doesn't mean you should spend your time sucking at it. Ask questions. Read guides. Playing for 2 hours a week every Saturday with the proper gear and a group setting, you will eventually get a kill.

Funny story: I was trying to teach a group how to VG and we were lacking cc. The warrior slots battle standard while our 2 druids had elite spirits. He equipped rifle and gs, had vitality gear, 2 banners, and a Powe signet and healing signet, only gave the group 8 might, 2k dps and we still failed the break bar. Even though I admired his want to be the solution to our problem... he needed to comform to the meta and refused to do so. I dropped the group, guild, never ran raids with them again.

[Pallen.8235]

Even in my own guilds, when recruiting for their raid team(s)....they are only interested in "experienced" raiders. I understand their view...they did their time in PUG raids back in 2016 and 2017, learning mechanics and classes and how to build a raid team. They don't want to waste infinitely - 1 sec training others! But at the same time, when I look in LFG, every raid wants me to ping a trophy count...to prove to them that I have tons of kill experience, in every raid..

I started Guild Wars 2 only 5 months ago and about 2 months ago I started to raid. It is really not hard to get into, jump on reddit, find a training group and join. There are tons of them available in GW2. Sure you may wipe for 4 hours on VG but every time you do you will learn more, and next time you join a training group maybe you will get the kill. You can't expect to get into a group that will carry you through it, you have to put the effort in and learn the bosses with others who are inexperienced to. Learn something new from each wipe and work on it.

The largest part of raiding is wiping, get used to it and put the work in, its really not heard to get into raiding.

[robertthebard.8150]

@"Salicia.5943" said:Raids are not destroying the game. The players are destroying it. The GW2 community as a whole has immensely gotten more mouthier, rude, unhelpful, toxic, I could go on. Take matriarch for example, the reason why she flies up and becomes untlattackable is failure to cc. Roll this over to a raid boss where breaking the cc bar is required or you insta wipe. Nobody wants to spend 3 hours on a raid boss they have killed already because someone's dps is too low or they are failing mechanics because they cannot comprehend mechanics or multiple things at once. Sit in a corner doing nothing for 3 hours, no music no talking, no interacting. Then get up and tell me you are happy and accomplished with the time you just wasted with no reward.

The divide for casual players vs experienced will always be there. Think of it from the point of view as a gym membership. You want that body? Put the work in. You want to be good at gw2 raids? Put the work in. If you don't like how the raiding community us then don't raid. There are plenty of beginning raid guilds out there with raid training discords. Everyone in here asking "What is the raid training discord?" Is a casual human being. Google. Use the brain. Be a go getter and figure it out for yourself.

LFG is not a tool for the casual player. Spare the experienced people and go look else where in training discords or start your own squad. You do not need a commander tag. Put "Semi experienced VG full of casuals chill LF 1 tank 1 healer" and go. If you don't get a boss kill... hmm I wonder why?

Strive to be a better person. Is all it boils down to whether you are a toxic raider, control yourself and remember you were once in their shoes. Or a casual, don't get offended so easily that something isn't fair.

Do you have some documentation that LFG is only for experienced players, or is this one of those toxic responses to "filthy casuals" that supposedly doesn't exist in GW 2?

[Hurag.9183]

Hey guys and girls, i wanted to say something that could try to explain raiding to people that haven't raided before.

For the start let's say i'm raiding for 8 months and i'm already over 250LI. And i play every role from chrono to dps.Okay now that i introduced myself, let's say like this. Raiding is like hobby for me. Like playing guitar.If you want to play guitar you have to learn chords first. So in raiding if you want to raid you have to learn your dps or support rotation.Then you have to learn songs so you can play some for your friends. So in raiding you need to know, no way other, how certain bosses works and their mechanics.Once you know how to play chords and what chords to use for song you can play it easily. So in raiding if you know your dps rotation good enough and you know how certain boss works there is no way you gonna struggle.

And i think for everything in life you need curiosity. If you are curious enough for raiding you eventually gonna do all CMs and have over 250LIs. It comes with time , nothing comes over night , right?And also let's clear this, i don't do raiding for legendary armor. I'm too lazy to collect stuff to be honest, of course at some point i'm gonna put some time in doing it but only when i get will to do it.Raids are fun for me and i just love how every boss is different and challenging in a way i can enjoy him.

[maxwelgm.4315]

This topic has come a long way, no use responding to all of it but, I do agree with OP as someone who raids regularly (I just quit my static due to getting a new job). There is a rift and Anet has created it. They have done it nicely and made it so that you can cross to the other side, but it's there. Raids are exclusive by design and that's OK (now looking @OP I guess). They are made to people who want that little extra push to have to get better at something, and that want the little thrill of achieving something they couldn't even touch during the first tries. The feeling is increasingly hard to achieve due to no vertical progression and there are only so many mechanics you can come up with, so some people stop playing frequently, go do something else, and others challenge themselves even further by speedclearing, low-man runs, among other player imposed handicaps used to enhance encounters. Nevertheless, the content is crafted (I'd say even better than in other games) to take this into consideration, and players that want to play like they do with the rest of the game are not going to feel at ease in that mode.

There is a world of other stuff to do outside of raids (I know it, I do a little of every piece of content in this game since release) and so it's not as bad as it seems that this particular content is out of reach for some players. @ the raiders replying here: yes the content is out of reach, and we should not use our own experiences and feelings to affirm that "anyone" can raid. Content that anyone can do is Living World, and arguably WvW where numbers can trivialize your personal difficulties and still let you have plenty of fun, but in raids you have to perform or, at the very least, you'll be lying on the ground while others play the game for you. There is nothing inherently wrong with that either, there is a time and place for people who want challenge as much as there is for people who want their gaming time to be as relaxing as possible.

As for the group aspect of raids, well this is intrinsically tied to the game mode, and has to be considered as an integral part of gameplay. You can't just come up and say "I'm decent but can't find a group to raid, how unfair" without begging the question "To how many people did you actively attempt to show you're decent?" or "Did you talk to people before you tried to start playing?" I hope this doesn't come out as obtuse, but the social aspect and dealing with others is part of the gameplay, both to people who enjoy it and join statics and what not, but also to people who might consider it a hurdle and only want to pug and go into fights without much interaction. No matter how you see this peer to peer interaction, it is part of the experience and in reality the time you spend in LFG or joining a static or socializing with your fellow raiders actually should count as "raiding". It's like playing a sport like soccer and pretending the time you spend in the locker room with your teammates doesn't really count towards the overall experience, so there's also that for most non-raiders to deal with and acknowledge.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Salicia.5943 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:The nature of raid content is that it is aimed at the dedicated player. At this late date, it's going to be exponentially harder to find enough dedicated players to stick around long enough to work through a beginning raider learning curve. The long-time dedicated players, by definition, started raids when they first dropped. New players who are so dedicated are going to be willing to work through training groups as a means to get up to speed. The leftovers are those who want to raid but lack the dedication to do what the raiding community expects. The pity is that gaming in general goes out of its way to cater to the drop-in-and-succeed mentality.

I disagree. There are so many experienced players in the raid scene that runs scheduled trainings for a raid boss, in a relaxed acene, will even help you with golem training. These casual players have no righs to wiggle into a more advanced group and then complain they have to ping kp. To this day I still run into Noth, from raiders inn teaching from the ground up and the group gets kills. These people are just looking in the wrong place. They don't have a dedication to figure out why things happen in a fight and that's what is wrong. I know that gaming is a "hobby" but that doesn't mean you should spend your time sucking at it. Ask questions. Read guides. Playing for 2 hours a week every Saturday with the proper gear and a group setting, you will eventually get a kill.

Funny story: I was trying to teach a group how to VG and we were lacking cc. The warrior slots battle standard while our 2 druids had elite spirits. He equipped rifle and gs, had vitality gear, 2 banners, and a Powe signet and healing signet, only gave the group 8 might, 2k dps and we still failed the break bar. Even though I admired his want to be the solution to our problem... he needed to comform to the meta and refused to do so. I dropped the group, guild, never ran raids with them again.

Wait. You say you disagree with my point. Then you agree that some people do not want to exhibit the dedication needed to listen and adapt to the needs of the encounter... Surely this is a failure on either my part to state my point or a misunderstanding on your part.

The point was, that there are players who want to adapt (to learn) raids, and players who want raids (and other players) to adapt to them.

[Shikaru.7618]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@"Salicia.5943" said:Raids are not destroying the game. The players are destroying it. The GW2 community as a whole has immensely gotten more mouthier, rude, unhelpful, toxic, I could go on. Take matriarch for example, the reason why she flies up and becomes untlattackable is failure to cc. Roll this over to a raid boss where breaking the cc bar is required or you insta wipe. Nobody wants to spend 3 hours on a raid boss they have killed already because someone's dps is too low or they are failing mechanics because they cannot comprehend mechanics or multiple things at once. Sit in a corner doing nothing for 3 hours, no music no talking, no interacting. Then get up and tell me you are happy and accomplished with the time you just wasted with no reward.

The divide for casual players vs experienced will always be there. Think of it from the point of view as a gym membership. You want that body? Put the work in. You want to be good at gw2 raids? Put the work in. If you don't like how the raiding community us then don't raid. There are plenty of beginning raid guilds out there with raid training discords. Everyone in here asking "What is the raid training discord?" Is a casual human being. Google. Use the brain. Be a go getter and figure it out for yourself.

LFG is not a tool for the casual player. Spare the experienced people and go look else where in training discords or start your own squad. You do not need a commander tag. Put "Semi experienced VG full of casuals chill LF 1 tank 1 healer" and go. If you don't get a boss kill... hmm I wonder why?

Strive to be a better person. Is all it boils down to whether you are a toxic raider, control yourself and remember you were once in their shoes. Or a casual, don't get offended so easily that something isn't fair.

Do you have some documentation that LFG is only for experienced players, or is this one of those toxic responses to "filthy casuals" that supposedly doesn't exist in GW 2?

Nothing in the game prevents a non experienced player from using it. However in practical use cases, a vast majority of lfg listings will ask for kp. You maybe get that one training group once every blue moon but directing new players to the lfg with the hopes of finding a group to meet their needs is an exercise in futility and frustration. You're better off pursuing the other avenues suggested ie. Join a training discord community or find a guild. That being said, the only way for the casual community to find more groups in lfg is if they start making them.

[Salicia.5943]

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:Wait. You say you disagree with my point. Then you agree that some people do not want to exhibit the dedication needed to listen and adapt to the needs of the encounter... Surely this is a failure on either my part to state my point or a misunderstanding on your part.

I was disagreeing with you statement of -> "At this late date, it's going to be exponentially harder to find enough dedicated players to stick around long enough to work through a beginning raider learning curve."

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Do you have some documentation that LFG is only for experienced players, or is this one of those toxic responses to "filthy casuals" that supposedly doesn't exist in GW 2?

I do not but OP stated that she opened up LFG and they were all listed as "ping KP" which you can only get by killing a boss. (Unless you fake the item code). Don't get me wrong I understand what the OP is going through but she needs to do training in order to get KP then she can join any of the LFG groups that are not listed as "Semi-exp" or "Training". Gotta start at the bottom first. Trust me when I say it's not just "Casuals" that have this problem. Experienced people on the fight have trouble as well getting into groups. If you don't ping the exact KP they want (without them telling you btw) you get kicked. The community and requirements is broken but I still believe it boils down to the people being the issue and that's not something that Anet has the control or power to fix.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Shikaru.7618 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@"Salicia.5943" said:Raids are not destroying the game. The players are destroying it. The GW2 community as a whole has immensely gotten more mouthier, rude, unhelpful, toxic, I could go on. Take matriarch for example, the reason why she flies up and becomes untlattackable is failure to cc. Roll this over to a raid boss where breaking the cc bar is required or you insta wipe. Nobody wants to spend 3 hours on a raid boss they have killed already because someone's dps is too low or they are failing mechanics because they cannot comprehend mechanics or multiple things at once. Sit in a corner doing nothing for 3 hours, no music no talking, no interacting. Then get up and tell me you are happy and accomplished with the time you just wasted with no reward.

The divide for casual players vs experienced will always be there. Think of it from the point of view as a gym membership. You want that body? Put the work in. You want to be good at gw2 raids? Put the work in. If you don't like how the raiding community us then don't raid. There are plenty of beginning raid guilds out there with raid training discords. Everyone in here asking "What is the raid training discord?" Is a casual human being. Google. Use the brain. Be a go getter and figure it out for yourself.

LFG is not a tool for the casual player. Spare the experienced people and go look else where in training discords or start your own squad. You do not need a commander tag. Put "Semi experienced VG full of casuals chill LF 1 tank 1 healer" and go. If you don't get a boss kill... hmm I wonder why?

Strive to be a better person. Is all it boils down to whether you are a toxic raider, control yourself and remember you were once in their shoes. Or a casual, don't get offended so easily that something isn't fair.

Do you have some documentation that LFG is only for experienced players, or is this one of those toxic responses to "filthy casuals" that supposedly doesn't exist in GW 2?

Nothing in the game prevents a non experienced player from using it. However in practical use cases, a vast majority of lfg listings will ask for kp. You maybe get that one training group once every blue moon but directing new players to the lfg with the hopes of finding a group to meet their needs is an exercise in futility and frustration. You're better off pursuing the other avenues suggested ie. Join a training discord community or find a guild. That being said, the only way for the casual community to find more groups in lfg is if they start making them.

I think you have this backwards, to an extent. The best way to keep "undesirables " out of your group is to form static groups. Then you never have to worry about who you're going to get when it's time to run a raid, or any other group content that one may wish to run. You even listed a resource to do it, with the discord servers. If you don't have to list it on LFG to fill it, you don't have to worry about who's in it.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Salicia.5943 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:Wait. You say you disagree with my point. Then you agree that some people do not want to exhibit the dedication needed to listen and adapt to the needs of the encounter... Surely this is a failure on either my part to state my point or a misunderstanding on your part.

I was disagreeing with you statement of -> "At this late date, it's going to be exponentially harder to find enough dedicated players to stick around long enough to work through a beginning raider learning curve."

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Do you have some documentation that LFG is only for experienced players, or is this one of those toxic responses to "filthy casuals" that supposedly doesn't exist in GW 2?

I do not but OP stated that she opened up LFG and they were all listed as "ping KP" which you can only get by killing a boss. (Unless you fake the item code). Don't get me wrong I understand what the OP is going through but she needs to do training in order to get KP then she can join any of the LFG groups that are not listed as "Semi-exp" or "Training". Gotta start at the bottom first. Trust me when I say it's not just "Casuals" that have this problem. Experienced people on the fight have trouble as well getting into groups. If you don't ping the exact KP they want (without them telling you btw) you get kicked. The community and requirements is broken but I still believe it boils down to the people being the issue and that's not something that Anet has the control or power to fix.

I sort of answered this in my previous post, but we cross posted. The best way to handle that is, as stated, static groups, and with discord servers up and running, it should be pretty easy to fill them in discord, and then run the content. It's what's been done in every guild I've ever been in. We'd fill from the guild, or we'd run short, depending on what it was.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Salicia.5943 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:Wait. You say you disagree with my point. Then you agree that some people do not want to exhibit the dedication needed to listen and adapt to the needs of the encounter... Surely this is a failure on either my part to state my point or a misunderstanding on your part.

I was disagreeing with you statement of -> "At this late date, it's going to be exponentially harder to find enough dedicated players to stick around long enough to work through a beginning raider learning curve."

And I was speaking about people forming their own groups and hoping to find nine other new raid hopefuls willing to stick around through the failures, not people joining training raids hosted by experienced raiders. You even said...

or start your own squad. You do not need a commander tag. Put "Semi experienced VG full of casuals chill LF 1 tank 1 healer" and go. If you don't get a boss kill... hmm I wonder why?

[Talindra.4958]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Shikaru.7618 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@"ArchonWing.9480" said:If they didn't have raids, you'd have elitists in dungeons or fractals or whatnot. The good thing about raids is they're confined there now.

I seriously dont think theyre confined anywhere. Its really just the content that both needs large amount of repitition for some of the interesting rewards and require some rather mild coordination.

Since most people dont have that much time putting requirements is just one way to filter ppl so their success chance is higher and take less time. They dont want to bother explaining the whole thing everytime and rather just play.

This is partially correct.

There is however the other side that most people don't get. Training people is mentally taxing. Sure sometimes you get the people who research, care and geniunely want to improve. However those are far from the norm. From my time training people and not in one of the bigger Raid training groups is a lot of push back, crying and people adamant that they know better and outright refusing any help, critique or otherwise.

I had a unique experience where a group I was attempting to train on vg said that having green circles and blue circles was too confusing and they couldn't remember which circle did what so they started verbally abusing anet for "making 2 different colored circles". This was after repeated explanations and 10+ pulls. Some folks are simply not capable and that frustration manifests in crying and anger.

Then you simplify itbig circle=stand in itsmall circle=dont stand in it.

I actually would give up .. wouldn't pull through 10+ pulls.Anyway.. wouldn't it be easier to teach them no green vg :p

[Shivvies.3921]

@"Laila Lightness.8742" said:Not everyone uses gw2efficienty there those numbers comes from. And those numbers are time specific like latest month

To be fair, those who do not use efficiency would be much much more likely to be maybe vaguely aware of the existence of raids but a "rift" concept would be ne to them.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Shivvies.3921 said:

@"Laila Lightness.8742" said:Not everyone uses gw2efficienty there those numbers comes from. And those numbers are time specific like latest month

To be fair, those who do not use efficiency would be much much more likely to be maybe vaguely aware of the existence of raids but a "rift" concept would be ne to them.

To be really fair, I tend to avoid all the external sites. While some may indeed be helpful, others lead to "buy this hack". I'm also aware of raids, w/out having to venture outside of ANet's "grounds".

[Rod.6581]

There is no "rift" apart of that you have created yourself in your mind.

I've returned to game 3 months ago after more than 6 month break. (And even before that I mainly played WvW)Started doing raids with 2 friends. Used MetaBattle to learn builds, later qT and SnowCrows sites, and Golem to practice rotations. Used YT videos to learn mechanics. Started organizing raids titled "learning", "practice", "at least know mechs" and later "kp" without even having commander badge at that time. Still we always take time to explain mechanics to people if they don't know specific boss after killing previous one. And added guild recruitment to LFG during off hours to get more people interested in raiding with us in our (language specific) community.

We even had twitch streamers from big raid guilds randomly join our raids titled "learning" or "practice" on LFG more than once, showing they support people who just started doing raids.

Now we are 8-10 filling with pugs when is needed, finishing W1, W2, W4 full and partially W3 and W6 (missing Xera and Qadim) almost every week. Planning to start W5 soon.

Stop QQ-ing on forum, put some effort to it and you can catch up easily.

If it's too hard for you to learn build, practice your rotation not to perfection but to some decent numbers and check YT for mechanics. Or post LFG looking for people with same expectations as you (even making a guild so you can all be together) and you want to get everything served for you on the plate then just don't play raids and stop speaking nonsense.

Edited: Grammar.

[Abelisk.4527]

Guild Wars 2 is a game. Something you go on to find entertainment, it's not something that should be placed on very high priority on your life plans (unless you're a known streamer/commit to GW2 for other reasons, usually for publicity).

That being said, raid trainers often work like this:1) Meet up once a week, and hope to beat the boss.2) The training run usually fails at some point in the wing, players have to wait a whole week to try again.3) Each trainer can only get 9 other people, so space is limited.4) The runs are not only done on certain days, but certain hours usually later in the day. Personally, I do my homework in the later hours before getting ready to go to bed. There are also people working real-life jobs.5) I suppose you could talk with a Trainer to reschedule, but a) trainers are sacrificing their own time to train and b) other inexperienced players may be discontent with your reschedule.6) Bosses you want to beat may not even be considered by the trainer as the trainer(s) may have a different wing in mind.

To sum it up, it's kind of messy to rely on training groups. Training guilds may be more easier than Discords since it'll likely be more direct to talk with trainers. Someone above said they could take 1-2 inexperienced members with them on a run which is a great idea, but even that number is small.

I think some form of automatic queue system that, depending on settings, matches players up would be a good start. This system could also be implemented for dungeons. I started playing GW2 in 2016 and when I wanted to try a dungeon I was confused on how to find a group of players. LFG works, but it's very broad and easy to get the "wrong" people for the team--"wrong" as in unnecessary builds.

...so yes, I'm suggesting the queue system to have a build system that detects player stats and maybe even utilities, and invites those players based on the settings of the party's queue. This streamlined system may make it more attractive to the playerbase. If you don't want PUGS on your team you can set your party to private which is how the current system works.