Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already

[Astralporing.1957]

@zombyturtle.5980 said:WVW you can play without a group but your success as a server depends on group play.If you haven't noticed, one of the problems of WvW today is that way too many players there (including many of veterans) do not really care about success of their server.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:If you haven't noticed, one of the problems of WvW today is that way too many players there (including many of veterans) do not really care about success of their server.

To be fair that's a problem with the entire game, players not caring about the success of the content, only that they get their loot. I know to get loot you need to succeed first (most of the times) by that I mean they don't care about how they get their loot, how to do the mechanics properly, but rather that some others will and they will all get their rewards in the end. It's why simple break bars don't break during boss fights (not talking about some really over-tuned ones), why players fail to dodge very simple damage mechanics and then stay dead waiting for their loot instead of waypointing and running back. In PVP it's also common to see players that queue, afk, rinse/repeat to get their rewards since winning only accelerates the rewards, it's not a necessity. This apathy towards the actual content of the game is a major issue, and it appears on all modes.

[Cyndercat.7615]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:WVW you can play without a group but your success as a server depends on group play.If you haven't noticed, one of the problems of WvW today is that way too many players there (including many of veterans) do not really care about success of their server.

Yes I have. In fact I think its probably the worst game mode for creating the toxicity we were discussing earlier, where players who want the rewards conflict with players who want to play the content.

Still, to play the game mode as intended (goal to be the winning server) needs group play.

[Astralporing.1957]

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:WVW you can play without a group but your success as a server depends on group play.If you haven't noticed, one of the problems of WvW today is that way too many players there (including many of veterans) do not really care about success of their server.

Yes I have. In fact I think its probably the worst game mode for creating the toxicity we were discussing earlier, where players who want the rewards conflict with players who want to play the content.

Still, to play the game mode as intended (goal to be the winning server) needs group play.

Indeed. Which is why it also fits the description of the problem i mentioned earlier that raids suffer from. Designed to satisfy one group of players, requires team cooperation, but also has incentives to bring in players from a completely different group and with different goals. Same with SPvP, of course.

It mostly works if people of those distinct groups can easily play separately. If for some reason it's not so easy and they end up mixing up however, well, the greater the group cooperation required, the more violatile that mix becomes.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

I am part of a training discord. Right now (23:55 central european time) there are more then 1000 players online. Some of them tried raiding once, some are already raidning with pugs/static but decided to stay there and some are newcomers that train now. Raids are organised 3 times per week for 2-3 hours at set time. Sometime there are more trainees then commanders and other time more commanders then trainees. Everyone is nice and patient.It is not hard to find this discord. I was once sitting in front of dentist when I decided to start raiding and joined this discord on my mobile phone in less then a minute. If someone wants to learn then nerere are options to do so. Training discords exists and are used by many players. If someone cannot find them then they are probably not looking.

[rabenpriester.7129]

My sincerest apologies. I really should not have referred to this whirlwind of confusion and dyslexia as a "mindset".

[SkyShroud.2865]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cattastrophy.2874" said:Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.Yes, that's true. Basically, it happens every time you create a mode where players need to depend on each other, design it for a specific group of players, and then create rewards aimed at a completely different group of players. The more effort and teamplay the content requires, the more toxicity is going to happen.

So what exactly is the advantage of making this content then, if it invariably breeds a toxic environment?

The enjoyment people get out of group content is worth the risk of toxicity from a small number of people. If you remove all group content from an MMO you end up with a single player live service. This is not what gw2 is intended to be.

Do you really want all dungeons, fractals, raids, wvw, pvp and group events removed from the game?

You are confusing social content with group content.

Dungeons, Fractals, and Raids, are

group content

as they

require

you to be in a group to play with other people, such they are group based content.

WvW and open world like content IE: World Bosses, Meta Events, Dynamic Events, etc, are

Social Content

as they have no such requirement to group for anyone to contribute to the completion and receive a reward for doing so.

Spare me the "Oh no it would be a Solo Game without group content" there is only Fractals, Dungeons and Raids that are group content, and there is a huge world of the game that is social content.

They could get rid of the group content, BDO did, and it;s doing fine.

Social and Group content. That's some new terms you got there.

[santso.9201]

Lol did someone rly bring up worst gambling game ever in this discussion as "Pro" wouldnt say that game which pirate servers are More popular than actual game is good example.

[Cristalyan.5728]

@"rabenpriester.7129" said:My sincerest apologies. I really should not have referred to this whirlwind of confusion and dyslexia as a "mindset".

Hmm .... If I answer you in a way you are able to understand, this topic will be in danger of closure. So, I will pretend that indeed my mind is clouded by confusion and because of this I did not understand the real meaning of your statement and I will say only: Acknowledged. Apologies accepted.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Let me pinpoint where the rift is:

First Era:

• When raids first arrived, the population was larger than it is now.
• Everyone was new and as such, they tolerated each other's learning process in raids. At least for awhile.
• People were forming raid teams and were excited to teach other players to structure guilds around raiding.
• A hardcore community had been formed, over the course of time this happened ->

Current Era:

• Population is smaller now than when raids had first arrived.
• The hardcore community is very experienced now and a bit burnt out on teaching new players raids, so many of them avoid it completely.
• Hardcore community begins heavily gating joins into their guilds & teams.
• New players looking to get involved in raids missed the first listed era, where everyone was excited to learn and teach and to form their guilds & teams, back when they tolerated the learning process of others.
• New players now must attempt to find other new players to play with in a smaller community, which at times can prove to be extremely difficult to accomplish without heavy handed scheduling, which is difficult to make work when the population is smaller and there are less people to fish in who have similar schedules.
• New players get burnt out on raids before they even get started because finding not even a good group, but just a group that wants to dedicate time to learn, who are able to schedule this together, is becoming extremely difficult to do.

The rift lies within time elapsed. The longer time goes on, the more experienced the original hardcore community becomes and the more burnt out they get on teaching new players, and the gates get taller. The longer time goes on, the smaller the population gets, and the more difficult it becomes for new players arriving on the scene to even find a group that will tolerate their learning process and/or be able to schedule times together to create a learning process. This effect will only get worse as the years go on. The raiders who are experienced, that are in here saying "the rift is only in your mind" aren't understanding the incredible inconvenience in organization that new players arriving on the scene are experiencing. It is a luxury to have been around during the first raid era, and to have maintained steady experience level ever since. The gates are open for most of those players.

[yann.1946]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@rabenpriester.7129 said:

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

The rift has been created even before the first raid wing reached the game. By the developers statement the the raids are

only for ...

. This only creates a segregation. Segregation = separation. Separation = rift. And after this statement, the entire development team acted to put it into practice. Repeating that this is a good thing.

Honestly, the rift between you and me can't be big enough. Believe me when I say it's not the game mode that makes me want to interact as little as possible with people of a mindset such as yours.

Oh, then I'm safe. Because, you know, the theory of "the Chosen" is for the persons with ..... manipulable minds. Because of this "you belong to the select class of the few Chosen... " the people tend be more indulgent with the .... "gods" whispering them this pleasant lie.

This is the reason I consider the statement

"the raids are ONLY...."

to be a mistake from ANet. More than this, an insult for all the persons able to think. Something like

.... the raids will be very difficult, something like the dungeons at at launch ....

is a challenging statement. Something like

the raids are ONLY for ...

is not challenging at all. It seems like a bribery tentative. Unfortunately, some did not resist this tentative.

To end this: I'm truly happy you avoid to interact with persons thinking like me. Because, you know, persons like me lack the rudeness to tell you the same. And you spare me for the effort to find a polite way to tell you the truth.

Doesn't the raids will be ridiculously hard and the raids will only be clearable by those who are good at the game basicly same thing.

[STIHL.2489]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cattastrophy.2874" said:Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.Yes, that's true. Basically, it happens every time you create a mode where players need to depend on each other, design it for a specific group of players, and then create rewards aimed at a completely different group of players. The more effort and teamplay the content requires, the more toxicity is going to happen.

So what exactly is the advantage of making this content then, if it invariably breeds a toxic environment?

The enjoyment people get out of group content is worth the risk of toxicity from a small number of people. If you remove all group content from an MMO you end up with a single player live service. This is not what gw2 is intended to be.

Do you really want all dungeons, fractals, raids, wvw, pvp and group events removed from the game?

You are confusing social content with group content.

Dungeons, Fractals, and Raids, are

group content

as they

require

you to be in a group to play with other people, such they are group based content.

WvW and open world like content IE: World Bosses, Meta Events, Dynamic Events, etc, are

Social Content

as they have no such requirement to group for anyone to contribute to the completion and receive a reward for doing so.

Spare me the "Oh no it would be a Solo Game without group content" there is only Fractals, Dungeons and Raids that are group content, and there is a huge world of the game that is social content.

They could get rid of the group content, BDO did, and it;s doing fine.

Social and Group content. That's some new terms you got there.

It's called evolving with the times, as games change, so too do the terms to accurately describe what is going on.

Trying to claim a Meta Event and a Fractal are the same, or both group content, is as egregiousness as trying to claim that a private birthday party and a block party are the same because they are both called parties.

at some point.. you're just wrong.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:The longer time goes on, the more experienced the original hardcore community becomes and the more burnt out they get on teaching new players, and the gates get taller. The longer time goes on, the smaller the population gets, and the more difficult it becomes for new players arriving on the scene to even find a group that will tolerate their learning process and/or be able to schedule times together to create a learning process.

As you said, as time goes on, some raiders burn out and leave, but they open up spots in their static teams, perfect opportunity for new players to join in and fill those spots. What we might need is a way for static groups to find replacements for such situations. It's not a good idea to get a random, because they are well random, and the LFG is full of lies and deceit. However, if instead of a completely random person you got an actual guild member, that would be great to teach them raids. Teaching a random pug is not a very good usage of your time, which is why such trainers aren't as common. On the other hand teaching a guild member is an investment, because they will join up the static team and become part of it.

Something like the "Looking for Group" sub-forum, but available in-game, would do the trick. Experienced teams that lose players over time will be able to fill them, and newer players will be able to find teams to join. Static/permanent teams, because let's face it, nobody should ever be forced to take a random nobody from the LFG tool and go over the trouble of training them, just for the one time they will play with them.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cattastrophy.2874" said:Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.Yes, that's true. Basically, it happens every time you create a mode where players need to depend on each other, design it for a specific group of players, and then create rewards aimed at a completely different group of players. The more effort and teamplay the content requires, the more toxicity is going to happen.

So what exactly is the advantage of making this content then, if it invariably breeds a toxic environment?

The enjoyment people get out of group content is worth the risk of toxicity from a small number of people. If you remove all group content from an MMO you end up with a single player live service. This is not what gw2 is intended to be.

Do you really want all dungeons, fractals, raids, wvw, pvp and group events removed from the game?

You are confusing social content with group content.

Dungeons, Fractals, and Raids, are

group content

as they

require

you to be in a group to play with other people, such they are group based content.

WvW and open world like content IE: World Bosses, Meta Events, Dynamic Events, etc, are

Social Content

as they have no such requirement to group for anyone to contribute to the completion and receive a reward for doing so.

Spare me the "Oh no it would be a Solo Game without group content" there is only Fractals, Dungeons and Raids that are group content, and there is a huge world of the game that is social content.

They could get rid of the group content, BDO did, and it;s doing fine.

Social and Group content. That's some new terms you got there.

It's called evolving with the times, as games change, so too do the terms to accurately describe what is going on.

Trying to claim a Meta Event and a Fractal are the same, or both group content, is as egregiousness as trying to claim that a private birthday party and a block party are the same because they are both called parties.

at some point.. you're just wrong.

That's some justification there but you seems to forgotten the importance of defining the terms, just what are "social" and "group"?Reminder, assumptions caused many conflicts in the world.

[Rhiannon.1726]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Let me pinpoint where the rift is:

First Era:

• When raids first arrived, the population was larger than it is now.
• Everyone was new and as such, they tolerated each other's learning process in raids. At least for awhile.
• People were forming raid teams and were excited to teach other players to structure guilds around raiding.
• A hardcore community had been formed, over the course of time this happened ->

Current Era:

• Population is smaller now than when raids had first arrived.
• The hardcore community is very experienced now and a bit burnt out on teaching new players raids, so many of them avoid it completely.
• Hardcore community begins heavily gating joins into their guilds & teams.
• New players looking to get involved in raids missed the first listed era, where everyone was excited to learn and teach and to form their guilds & teams, back when they tolerated the learning process of others.
• New players now must attempt to find other new players to play with in a smaller community, which at times can prove to be extremely difficult to accomplish without heavy handed scheduling, which is difficult to make work when the population is smaller and there are less people to fish in who have similar schedules.
• New players get burnt out on raids before they even get started because finding not even a good group, but just a group that wants to dedicate time to learn, who are able to schedule this together, is becoming extremely difficult to do.

The rift lies within time elapsed. The longer time goes on, the more experienced the original hardcore community becomes and the more burnt out they get on teaching new players, and the gates get taller. The longer time goes on, the smaller the population gets, and the more difficult it becomes for new players arriving on the scene to even find a group that will tolerate their learning process and/or be able to schedule times together to create a learning process. This effect will only get worse as the years go on. The raiders who are experienced, that are in here saying "the rift is only in your mind" aren't understanding the incredible inconvenience in organization that new players arriving on the scene are experiencing. It is a luxury to have been around during the first raid era, and to have maintained steady experience level ever since. The gates are open for most of those players.

I see that completely different:

When raiding was new:People often just had exotic equipment.There were hardly any guides.There was no Quantify/Snowcrows site for builds and guides how to play this build.It took more casual guilds weeks to get a safe VG kill, and months to even think about trying to do Gorseval with no updraft.And do you remember how hard it was to get a Matthias kill?

Nowadays:Ascended equipment is easier to get.There are lots of guides for the raids.People have easy access to guides how to play the meta builds.Several raid mechanics can be ignored.Dedicated training guilds/discord servers exist.With some experienced players in a training run you have a very high chance to get Sloth and Matthias killed on one evening.If someone in your guild is in a raiding group, you can ask if you could try raiding when they have a free spot. You'll get several raid bosses down in one evening.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Rhiannon.1726 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Let me pinpoint where the rift is:

First Era:

• When raids first arrived, the population was larger than it is now.
• Everyone was new and as such, they tolerated each other's learning process in raids. At least for awhile.
• People were forming raid teams and were excited to teach other players to structure guilds around raiding.
• A hardcore community had been formed, over the course of time this happened ->

Current Era:

• Population is smaller now than when raids had first arrived.
• The hardcore community is very experienced now and a bit burnt out on teaching new players raids, so many of them avoid it completely.
• Hardcore community begins heavily gating joins into their guilds & teams.
• New players looking to get involved in raids missed the first listed era, where everyone was excited to learn and teach and to form their guilds & teams, back when they tolerated the learning process of others.
• New players now must attempt to find other new players to play with in a smaller community, which at times can prove to be extremely difficult to accomplish without heavy handed scheduling, which is difficult to make work when the population is smaller and there are less people to fish in who have similar schedules.
• New players get burnt out on raids before they even get started because finding not even a good group, but just a group that wants to dedicate time to learn, who are able to schedule this together, is becoming extremely difficult to do.

The rift lies within time elapsed. The longer time goes on, the more experienced the original hardcore community becomes and the more burnt out they get on teaching new players, and the gates get taller. The longer time goes on, the smaller the population gets, and the more difficult it becomes for new players arriving on the scene to even find a group that will tolerate their learning process and/or be able to schedule times together to create a learning process. This effect will only get worse as the years go on. The raiders who are experienced, that are in here saying "the rift is only in your mind" aren't understanding the incredible inconvenience in organization that new players arriving on the scene are experiencing. It is a luxury to have been around during the first raid era, and to have maintained steady experience level ever since. The gates are open for most of those players.

Several raid mechanics can be ignored.

Or nearly entire fights (I'm looking at Gorseval)

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Rhiannon.1726 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Let me pinpoint where the rift is:

First Era:

• When raids first arrived, the population was larger than it is now.
• Everyone was new and as such, they tolerated each other's learning process in raids. At least for awhile.
• People were forming raid teams and were excited to teach other players to structure guilds around raiding.
• A hardcore community had been formed, over the course of time this happened ->

Current Era:

• Population is smaller now than when raids had first arrived.
• The hardcore community is very experienced now and a bit burnt out on teaching new players raids, so many of them avoid it completely.
• Hardcore community begins heavily gating joins into their guilds & teams.
• New players looking to get involved in raids missed the first listed era, where everyone was excited to learn and teach and to form their guilds & teams, back when they tolerated the learning process of others.
• New players now must attempt to find other new players to play with in a smaller community, which at times can prove to be extremely difficult to accomplish without heavy handed scheduling, which is difficult to make work when the population is smaller and there are less people to fish in who have similar schedules.
• New players get burnt out on raids before they even get started because finding not even a good group, but just a group that wants to dedicate time to learn, who are able to schedule this together, is becoming extremely difficult to do.

The rift lies within time elapsed. The longer time goes on, the more experienced the original hardcore community becomes and the more burnt out they get on teaching new players, and the gates get taller. The longer time goes on, the smaller the population gets, and the more difficult it becomes for new players arriving on the scene to even find a group that will tolerate their learning process and/or be able to schedule times together to create a learning process. This effect will only get worse as the years go on. The raiders who are experienced, that are in here saying "the rift is only in your mind" aren't understanding the incredible inconvenience in organization that new players arriving on the scene are experiencing. It is a luxury to have been around during the first raid era, and to have maintained steady experience level ever since. The gates are open for most of those players.

I see that completely different:

When raiding was new:People often just had exotic equipment.There were hardly any guides.There was no Quantify/Snowcrows site for builds and guides how to play this build.It took more casual guilds weeks to get a safe VG kill, and months to even think about trying to do Gorseval with no updraft.And do you remember how hard it was to get a Matthias kill?

Nowadays:Ascended equipment is easier to get.There are lots of guides for the raids.People have easy access to guides how to play the meta builds.Several raid mechanics can be ignored.Dedicated training guilds/discord servers exist.With some experienced players in a training run you have a very high chance to get Sloth and Matthias killed on one evening.If someone in your guild is in a raiding group, you can ask if you could try raiding when they have a free spot. You'll get several raid bosses down in one evening.

Our perception will always be skewed towards thinking everything is fine because we are actively "where things are happening" inside the raiding scene. Not completely disagreeing with you, but I also hardly would say that the situation got better just because it got easier to veterans, at best situation is the same as always for newbies. Skipping updrafts and greens is certainly not easy to fully new groups (a group of up to 4 people is clearly hard carrying the newbie team if they get it down without actually training with the mechanics first), let alone other mechanics further down the line.

What happens in other raiding games (other than the community slowly suffocating but always lingering there like WoW), is that content becomes trivialized and accessible to all players when new stuff gets released, purely out of vertical progression. You can experience and get drops from bosses you couldn't before as long as you play the waiting game, even if you can't seem to complete it at the time of release. Raids in gw2 will never become trivial to every kind of player, and the bottom level of skill requirement is always going to be present. The only way to introduce new people is for new people to quite literally git gud and that doesn't even match the rest of the game's philosophy, so I wouldn't say that the raiding discords and guilds have more people than they used to have, not at all.

[Vinceman.4572]

@maxwelgm.4315 said:The only way to introduce new people is for new people to quite literally git gud and that doesn't even match the rest of the game's philosophy, so I wouldn't say that the raiding discords and guilds have more people than they used to have, not at all.

You assume it is Anet's intention to have more players in raids like we have now. I'll tell you something: it never was.

[lodjur.1284]

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:Our perception will always be skewed towards thinking everything is fine because we are actively "where things are happening" inside the raiding scene. Not completely disagreeing with you, but I also hardly would say that the situation got better just because it got easier to veterans, at best situation is the same as always for newbies. Skipping updrafts and greens is certainly not easy to fully new groups (a group of up to 4 people is clearly hard carrying the newbie team if they get it down without actually training with the mechanics first), let alone other mechanics further down the line.

What happens in other raiding games (other than the community slowly suffocating but always lingering there like WoW), is that content becomes trivialized and accessible to all players when new stuff gets released, purely out of vertical progression. You can experience and get drops from bosses you couldn't before as long as you play the waiting game, even if you can't seem to complete it at the time of release. Raids in gw2 will never become trivial to every kind of player, and the bottom level of skill requirement is always going to be present. The only way to introduce new people is for new people to quite literally git gud and that doesn't even match the rest of the game's philosophy, so I wouldn't say that the raiding discords and guilds have more people than they used to have, not at all.

Not all content has to be for all players. There is plenty of more "casual" content I have no interest in, it being in the game does in no way lessen my enjoyment of it, having diverse kinds of content means they can attract different kinds of player. In fact there being content one is unable to do (due to skill/gear/whatever) I always found to be inspiring (back when I was a lot younger and much worse at games compared to what I am now).

[Belorn.2659]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Let me pinpoint where the rift is:

First Era:

• When raids first arrived, the population was larger than it is now.
• Everyone was new and as such, they tolerated each other's learning process in raids. At least for awhile.
• People were forming raid teams and were excited to teach other players to structure guilds around raiding.
• A hardcore community had been formed, over the course of time this happened ->

Current Era:

• Population is smaller now than when raids had first arrived.
• The hardcore community is very experienced now and a bit burnt out on teaching new players raids, so many of them avoid it completely.
• Hardcore community begins heavily gating joins into their guilds & teams.
• New players looking to get involved in raids missed the first listed era, where everyone was excited to learn and teach and to form their guilds & teams, back when they tolerated the learning process of others.
• New players now must attempt to find other new players to play with in a smaller community, which at times can prove to be extremely difficult to accomplish without heavy handed scheduling, which is difficult to make work when the population is smaller and there are less people to fish in who have similar schedules.
• New players get burnt out on raids before they even get started because finding not even a good group, but just a group that wants to dedicate time to learn, who are able to schedule this together, is becoming extremely difficult to do.

As someone who plays on off-hours (ie EU time on NA Server) my experience is almost the opposite.First Era:

• When the population was larger the progression teams were always full, with 2+ existing fillers
• A lot of drama when teams and guild formed, collapsed, reformed and fell apart again.
• Gating and harsh requirement to filter out the "good" recruits from the bad in order to retain players and create progression.
• Party search was only used for training.

Current era:

• Progression happens now days as long you have 4-5 veterans. Few requirements on the "dps" players.
• Almost all groups are looking for core members and there is no filler backups.
• Party search is used by static teams.
• Few new teams or guilds get created. When one collapse most players just leave the game from burnout.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Let me pinpoint where the rift is:

First Era:

• When raids first arrived, the population was larger than it is now.
• Everyone was new and as such, they tolerated each other's learning process in raids. At least for awhile.
• People were forming raid teams and were excited to teach other players to structure guilds around raiding.
• A hardcore community had been formed, over the course of time this happened ->

Current Era:

• Population is smaller now than when raids had first arrived.
• The hardcore community is very experienced now and a bit burnt out on teaching new players raids, so many of them avoid it completely.
• Hardcore community begins heavily gating joins into their guilds & teams.
• New players looking to get involved in raids missed the first listed era, where everyone was excited to learn and teach and to form their guilds & teams, back when they tolerated the learning process of others.
• New players now must attempt to find other new players to play with in a smaller community, which at times can prove to be extremely difficult to accomplish without heavy handed scheduling, which is difficult to make work when the population is smaller and there are less people to fish in who have similar schedules.
• New players get burnt out on raids before they even get started because finding not even a good group, but just a group that wants to dedicate time to learn, who are able to schedule this together, is becoming extremely difficult to do.

The rift lies within time elapsed. The longer time goes on, the more experienced the original hardcore community becomes and the more burnt out they get on teaching new players, and the gates get taller. The longer time goes on, the smaller the population gets, and the more difficult it becomes for new players arriving on the scene to even find a group that will tolerate their learning process and/or be able to schedule times together to create a learning process. This effect will only get worse as the years go on. The raiders who are experienced, that are in here saying "the rift is only in your mind" aren't understanding the incredible inconvenience in organization that new players arriving on the scene are experiencing. It is a luxury to have been around during the first raid era, and to have maintained steady experience level ever since. The gates are open for most of those players.

How do you explain then that the rift existed already from the very beginning, and was started to be quite visible after the firs raid announcements (so, even before the content was even in the game)?

[STIHL.2489]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cattastrophy.2874" said:Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.Yes, that's true. Basically, it happens every time you create a mode where players need to depend on each other, design it for a specific group of players, and then create rewards aimed at a completely different group of players. The more effort and teamplay the content requires, the more toxicity is going to happen.

So what exactly is the advantage of making this content then, if it invariably breeds a toxic environment?

The enjoyment people get out of group content is worth the risk of toxicity from a small number of people. If you remove all group content from an MMO you end up with a single player live service. This is not what gw2 is intended to be.

Do you really want all dungeons, fractals, raids, wvw, pvp and group events removed from the game?

You are confusing social content with group content.

Dungeons, Fractals, and Raids, are

group content

as they

require

you to be in a group to play with other people, such they are group based content.

WvW and open world like content IE: World Bosses, Meta Events, Dynamic Events, etc, are

Social Content

as they have no such requirement to group for anyone to contribute to the completion and receive a reward for doing so.

Spare me the "Oh no it would be a Solo Game without group content" there is only Fractals, Dungeons and Raids that are group content, and there is a huge world of the game that is social content.

They could get rid of the group content, BDO did, and it;s doing fine.

Social and Group content. That's some new terms you got there.

It's called evolving with the times, as games change, so too do the terms to accurately describe what is going on.

Trying to claim a Meta Event and a Fractal are the same, or both group content, is as egregiousness as trying to claim that a private birthday party and a block party are the same because they are both called parties.

at some point.. you're just wrong.

That's some justification there but you seems to forgotten the importance of defining the terms, just what are "social" and "group"?Reminder, assumptions caused many conflicts in the world.

I defined exactly what each was, in simple words that anyone should have been able to understand the difference.

You are confusing social content with group content.

Dungeons, Fractals, and Raids, are group content as they require you to be in a group to play with other people, such they are group based content.

WvW and open world like content IE: World Bosses, Meta Events, Dynamic Events, etc, are Social Content as they have no such requirement to group for anyone to contribute to the completion and receive a reward for doing so.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cattastrophy.2874" said:Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.Yes, that's true. Basically, it happens every time you create a mode where players need to depend on each other, design it for a specific group of players, and then create rewards aimed at a completely different group of players. The more effort and teamplay the content requires, the more toxicity is going to happen.

So what exactly is the advantage of making this content then, if it invariably breeds a toxic environment?

The enjoyment people get out of group content is worth the risk of toxicity from a small number of people. If you remove all group content from an MMO you end up with a single player live service. This is not what gw2 is intended to be.

Do you really want all dungeons, fractals, raids, wvw, pvp and group events removed from the game?

You are confusing social content with group content.

Dungeons, Fractals, and Raids, are

group content

as they

require

you to be in a group to play with other people, such they are group based content.

WvW and open world like content IE: World Bosses, Meta Events, Dynamic Events, etc, are

Social Content

as they have no such requirement to group for anyone to contribute to the completion and receive a reward for doing so.

Spare me the "Oh no it would be a Solo Game without group content" there is only Fractals, Dungeons and Raids that are group content, and there is a huge world of the game that is social content.

They could get rid of the group content, BDO did, and it;s doing fine.

Social and Group content. That's some new terms you got there.

It's called evolving with the times, as games change, so too do the terms to accurately describe what is going on.

Trying to claim a Meta Event and a Fractal are the same, or both group content, is as egregiousness as trying to claim that a private birthday party and a block party are the same because they are both called parties.

at some point.. you're just wrong.

That's some justification there but you seems to forgotten the importance of defining the terms, just what are "social" and "group"?Reminder, assumptions caused many conflicts in the world.

I defined exactly what each was, in simple words that anyone should have been able to understand the difference.

You are confusing social content with group content.

Dungeons, Fractals, and Raids, are

group content

as they

require

you to be in a group to play with other people, such they are group based content.

WvW and open world like content IE: World Bosses, Meta Events, Dynamic Events, etc, are

Social Content

as they have no such requirement to group for anyone to contribute to the completion and receive a reward for doing so.

Yes you did and is hard to get around your definition since you really did invent a new term, as in, redefining the terms itself.

As common english dictate, group content means any contents requiring a group of people, doesn't necessary means you require to party up or squad up, those are ingame features.

Social contents means contents that provide social interactions, anything social.

A social content may or not may necessary be a group content and vice versa.

You basically reinvent these term to whether or not it require ingame features of "party" or "squad".

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:The only way to introduce new people is for new people to quite literally

git gud

and that doesn't even match the rest of the game's philosophy, so I wouldn't say that the raiding discords and guilds have more people than they used to have, not at all.

You assume it is Anet's intention to have more players in raids like we have now. I'll tell you something: it never was.

I guess my point though is that even a constant flux of players is not feasible as it is. Population is not only X fraction of total GW2 players today, but it also decreases overall in time. I suppose it could be argued that it doesn't matter because it's the nature of online games to slowly but surely diminish their population, so yeah, I gotta agree with that.

[Amaranthe.3578]

Raids are broken for an entirely different reason.Your point is invalid. Youre supposed to keep looking for a guild with similar minded individuals. I know it require talking and socializing which is comparable to Chinese torture but it will get you there. Once you find the right play group the things you describe here wont be issues.