Conditions are no longer damage over time

[losingcontrol.1084]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@losingcontrol.1084 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I just want to add that it isn't purely condi damage and application that is a problem (Mirage just amplified it to newer heights).The power creep is across the board and that includes power damage.My toon with around 2800 Toughness and 25K HP can go down to a power mesmer burst combo from invis in around 1-2 seconds.And lets not forget one-shot soulbeasts or rapid fire soulbeasts still exist.

If you go down to a power mesmer from invis you are clearly a bad player.The burst of power mesmer is so telegraphed and with double dodge you remain 100% health with zero problems.Oneshot from malicious backstab from deadeye is another story, zero tells about it.When I am running a 2k armor build, zero toughness stats I couldn't find a single power mesmer who was able to oneshot me from stealth.

Soulbeast with longbow are nasty, you must use line of sight if possible.

Right now power dominates over condi, but doesn't mean condi spam is healthy and okay as it is, scourge are still the main plague of pvp and wvw when paired with firebrands.

um...well...maybe I wasn't clear enough...it was a burst that came from invis...and I didn't see the mesmer approaching because he came from invis...So...the telegraph parts starts when he does it right on top of you from invis...superhuman reflexes needed here when you didn't spot him before he spots you...So...probably I need to be more aware of my surroundings and spot him before he spot me and go invis first in which case I wouldn't have known he was coming...Then in that scenario that I didn't spot him before he went invis from a distance, I would have needed superhuman reflexes to react to a burst that does 25K+ damage in 1-2 seconds from invis that I didn't see was coming...Or remain tensed and ready to react throughout my time on the map in which case I think my life would become shorter.And that same mesmer that burst me from invis did the same to Vallun the thief streamer who also happens to be a top PvPer live on his stream before.So... I don't know...I guess we are all clearly a bad player.

You can see the pink blades animations of a mesmer even from invisible.But only few players in all GW2, maybe counting them in the fingers of one hand can pull off the perfect combo in less than 1 second at melee range and get a oneshot.And there is a stunlock too in the combo so that's why you got blowed up.

What I meant is: till now in pvp and wvw not a single mesmer was able to 100-0 and down me from stealth, even if I was not aware of my surroundings and most the time I heard the sound of the mesmer elite stealth which makes a pretty distinctive sound, and dodging it wasn't a problem.

If you encountered one of those few mesmers, very likely he got the oneshot on you, but it's a pretty rare case.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@losingcontrol.1084 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@losingcontrol.1084 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I just want to add that it isn't purely condi damage and application that is a problem (Mirage just amplified it to newer heights).The power creep is across the board and that includes power damage.My toon with around 2800 Toughness and 25K HP can go down to a power mesmer burst combo from invis in around 1-2 seconds.And lets not forget one-shot soulbeasts or rapid fire soulbeasts still exist.

If you go down to a power mesmer from invis you are clearly a bad player.The burst of power mesmer is so telegraphed and with double dodge you remain 100% health with zero problems.Oneshot from malicious backstab from deadeye is another story, zero tells about it.When I am running a 2k armor build, zero toughness stats I couldn't find a single power mesmer who was able to oneshot me from stealth.

Soulbeast with longbow are nasty, you must use line of sight if possible.

Right now power dominates over condi, but doesn't mean condi spam is healthy and okay as it is, scourge are still the main plague of pvp and wvw when paired with firebrands.

um...well...maybe I wasn't clear enough...it was a burst that came from invis...and I didn't see the mesmer approaching because he came from invis...So...the telegraph parts starts when he does it right on top of you from invis...superhuman reflexes needed here when you didn't spot him before he spots you...So...probably I need to be more aware of my surroundings and spot him before he spot me and go invis first in which case I wouldn't have known he was coming...Then in that scenario that I didn't spot him before he went invis from a distance, I would have needed superhuman reflexes to react to a burst that does 25K+ damage in 1-2 seconds from invis that I didn't see was coming...Or remain tensed and ready to react throughout my time on the map in which case I think my life would become shorter.And that same mesmer that burst me from invis did the same to Vallun the thief streamer who also happens to be a top PvPer live on his stream before.So... I don't know...I guess we are all clearly a bad player.

You can see the pink blades animations of a mesmer even from invisible.But only few players in all GW2, maybe counting them in the fingers of one hand can pull off the perfect combo in less than 1 second at melee range and get a oneshot.And there is a stunlock too in the combo so that's why you got blowed up.

What I meant is: till now in pvp and wvw not a single mesmer was able to 100-0 and down me from stealth, even if I was not aware of my surroundings and most the time I heard the sound of the mesmer elite stealth which makes a pretty distinctive sound, and dodging it wasn't a problem.

If you encountered one of those few mesmers, very likely he got the oneshot on you, but it's a pretty rare case.

You make a good point though.I handicap myself without having the sound on as I dislike playing with sound.And now that I think about it I'm probably too old now to react to these things.

[losingcontrol.1084]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@losingcontrol.1084 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@losingcontrol.1084 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I just want to add that it isn't purely condi damage and application that is a problem (Mirage just amplified it to newer heights).The power creep is across the board and that includes power damage.My toon with around 2800 Toughness and 25K HP can go down to a power mesmer burst combo from invis in around 1-2 seconds.And lets not forget one-shot soulbeasts or rapid fire soulbeasts still exist.

If you go down to a power mesmer from invis you are clearly a bad player.The burst of power mesmer is so telegraphed and with double dodge you remain 100% health with zero problems.Oneshot from malicious backstab from deadeye is another story, zero tells about it.When I am running a 2k armor build, zero toughness stats I couldn't find a single power mesmer who was able to oneshot me from stealth.

Soulbeast with longbow are nasty, you must use line of sight if possible.

Right now power dominates over condi, but doesn't mean condi spam is healthy and okay as it is, scourge are still the main plague of pvp and wvw when paired with firebrands.

um...well...maybe I wasn't clear enough...it was a burst that came from invis...and I didn't see the mesmer approaching because he came from invis...So...the telegraph parts starts when he does it right on top of you from invis...superhuman reflexes needed here when you didn't spot him before he spots you...So...probably I need to be more aware of my surroundings and spot him before he spot me and go invis first in which case I wouldn't have known he was coming...Then in that scenario that I didn't spot him before he went invis from a distance, I would have needed superhuman reflexes to react to a burst that does 25K+ damage in 1-2 seconds from invis that I didn't see was coming...Or remain tensed and ready to react throughout my time on the map in which case I think my life would become shorter.And that same mesmer that burst me from invis did the same to Vallun the thief streamer who also happens to be a top PvPer live on his stream before.So... I don't know...I guess we are all clearly a bad player.

You can see the pink blades animations of a mesmer even from invisible.But only few players in all GW2, maybe counting them in the fingers of one hand can pull off the perfect combo in less than 1 second at melee range and get a oneshot.And there is a stunlock too in the combo so that's why you got blowed up.

What I meant is: till now in pvp and wvw not a single mesmer was able to 100-0 and down me from stealth, even if I was not aware of my surroundings and most the time I heard the sound of the mesmer elite stealth which makes a pretty distinctive sound, and dodging it wasn't a problem.

If you encountered one of those few mesmers, very likely he got the oneshot on you, but it's a pretty rare case.

You make a good point though.I handicap myself without having the sound on as I dislike playing with sound.And now that I think about it I'm probably too old now to react to these things.

Sometimes I like to chill roam with music on, and yeah that's a pretty big handicap, especially against deadeyes, with sound on no way they can hit me with with death judgement which does a pretty distinctive sound as well, but when I play with music sometimes they get me with it because I don't hear it obviously xD

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@enkidu.5937 said:

@"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:Aside from specific classes being overtuned or not, if you want to tone down condition damage or application rate across the board, you really have to take into account how this will affect

every other

condition build. Reading the post i can tell that there is not much of a problem with most other condi builds, so i'm a bit confused as to why this would require a global nerf to conditions.I wonder if we could get a compromise between the two extremes: stacking in duration (as it was in the first years), and intensity (as it is now). Maybe cap fire and confusion stacks at 10 max., and let every additional application of fire / confusion increase duration.

I totally agree with you, that there are already enough tools (=condi cleanses), but they are almost useless against some of the condi bomb madness, nowadays. I just died because of a one-second fire tick for 8.8k (vs. core guard + scourge), though I had several condi cleanses ready-to-use. So this post is completely unbiased . . . xD

I think there still a bias among the entire playerbase when it comes to a condition death. As example you died to an 8.8 burn tick. This means you had around that in health remaining. Had a power build removed that 8.8k of health in a single attack (and there many attacks that do this much damage and more) , would you react the same way?

To be completely honest, it has less to do with the damage or dying to it but rather it has to do with how

frequently

this damage can be done or reapplied.

Take for instance Warrior and Eviscerate. Eviscerate can hit for 10k up to 14k (sometimes more but these are the numbers I see with mara/zerk gear). Eviscerate only does this kind of damage if the Warrior has 3 full bars of Adrenaline, at least 10+ stacks of Might, plus Swiftness (damage bonus of 3% from Warrior's Sprint), Peak Performance (20% damage increase for 6 sec after Physical skill is used aka Bull's Charge), and we assume Burst Mastery is traited. Also keeping in mind that it has a very telegraphed animation, the hit only applying after the full, very short distance leap is performed. If you miss (blind), it is blocked, invuln'd, interrupted, or evaded you lose all of that adrenaline and it goes onto at least a 6 and a half second cooldown not counting needing to build 3 bars of adrenaline again plus setting everything else up.

Another example could be Core Guardian. Yes it can deal out a significant chunk of burst in a very short amount of time, but this all requires timing and actually landing a chain of skills. This is typically done with its burst combo of "Shield of Wrath (wait for duration to tick lower) > Weapon swap > Mighty Blow > Judge's Intervention (used near the end of Mighty Blow animation) > Virtue of Justice > Smite Condition (optional). Glacial Heart also may proc during this combo. Keep in mind this is the main big damage source for Core Guardian and to pull it off essentially requires all of these skills to be off cooldown, it also requires that it not be dodged, or invuln'd, or blocked, or miss (blind), or interrupted. It is also very telegraphed because you can see them waiting for their Shield of Wrath duration to tick down before they do it.

Do you see the differences here? There are no big telegraphs to all of this condition output from some of these classes with condi heavy builds. Mirages near constantly just have their illusions/clones/phantasms active because Anet gave them access to having like 9 of them active at one time without really any indication that they are about to shatter their clones, not to mention scepter auto attack applying Torment alone. Yes the illusions perform an animation to depict the shatter....except they do this animation

after

the effect/damage already happens.

kill clones, dodge initial phantasm attack so they wont even spawn. 3 clones is the Limit. F2 has a 21 second CD when traited. Mirage attacks can be blocked/blinded too?Mirage combo is , axe 2 , axe 2 , jaunt , axe 3 , F2, so it spent a lot of things too. Axe 2 is easy telegraphed, most mirages use dodge in between so it cant get canceled - dodge or block this. If u run away, axe 3 will never hit u. You can still dodge to block the whole Axe 3. Mirages will shatter after Axe 3 so u can mitigate the shatter "burst" too.

Plenty of ways to counter the Class, just like any other one...

Scepter has 900 range and is clunky as hell. The shatter animation is when a RANGED clone is running towards u with 10 Units/second - movespeed. Try auto it once with any power class, and your gucci.

Stay out of meele to avoid Shatters - Plenty of good Players could do this vs me - so negating my only win condition.

Did anyone of u actually died to any form of Mesmer, without their Shatters?

Vs. any good player i'm struggling to ever have 3 clones at the same time...Problem is ; bad players just dont want to kill my clones. They think they only need to damage me, so in fact they simply try to ignore my class mechanic.

Same thing as running into a Reaper when shroud is 100% and afterwards crying, because it had so much HP.

In the case of a decently competent, potentially annoying build running condi mirage you may essentially be spending all your time on clearing those clones. In fact this happened to me today while roaming in WvW. I was 1v1ing a condi mirage and yeah sure they had no pressure on me on my Core Warrior because I kept clearing out their clones and avoiding the shatter procs of torment and also not activating skills while I had 7+ stacks of Confusion on me. However I couldn't pressure them while I was in the midst of doing this which allowed for their defensive cooldowns to become available again, which meant that if I pushed for CC or other pressure they either evaded/invuln'd or had their stun break available again which meant I couldn't put enough damage into them before they just stealthed and healed again.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@enkidu.5937 said:

@"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:Aside from specific classes being overtuned or not, if you want to tone down condition damage or application rate across the board, you really have to take into account how this will affect

every other

condition build. Reading the post i can tell that there is not much of a problem with most other condi builds, so i'm a bit confused as to why this would require a global nerf to conditions.I wonder if we could get a compromise between the two extremes: stacking in duration (as it was in the first years), and intensity (as it is now). Maybe cap fire and confusion stacks at 10 max., and let every additional application of fire / confusion increase duration.

I totally agree with you, that there are already enough tools (=condi cleanses), but they are almost useless against some of the condi bomb madness, nowadays. I just died because of a one-second fire tick for 8.8k (vs. core guard + scourge), though I had several condi cleanses ready-to-use. So this post is completely unbiased . . . xD

I think there still a bias among the entire playerbase when it comes to a condition death. As example you died to an 8.8 burn tick. This means you had around that in health remaining. Had a power build removed that 8.8k of health in a single attack (and there many attacks that do this much damage and more) , would you react the same way?

To be completely honest, it has less to do with the damage or dying to it but rather it has to do with how

frequently

this damage can be done or reapplied.

Take for instance Warrior and Eviscerate. Eviscerate can hit for 10k up to 14k (sometimes more but these are the numbers I see with mara/zerk gear). Eviscerate only does this kind of damage if the Warrior has 3 full bars of Adrenaline, at least 10+ stacks of Might, plus Swiftness (damage bonus of 3% from Warrior's Sprint), Peak Performance (20% damage increase for 6 sec after Physical skill is used aka Bull's Charge), and we assume Burst Mastery is traited. Also keeping in mind that it has a very telegraphed animation, the hit only applying after the full, very short distance leap is performed. If you miss (blind), it is blocked, invuln'd, interrupted, or evaded you lose all of that adrenaline and it goes onto at least a 6 and a half second cooldown not counting needing to build 3 bars of adrenaline again plus setting everything else up.

Another example could be Core Guardian. Yes it can deal out a significant chunk of burst in a very short amount of time, but this all requires timing and actually landing a chain of skills. This is typically done with its burst combo of "Shield of Wrath (wait for duration to tick lower) > Weapon swap > Mighty Blow > Judge's Intervention (used near the end of Mighty Blow animation) > Virtue of Justice > Smite Condition (optional). Glacial Heart also may proc during this combo. Keep in mind this is the main big damage source for Core Guardian and to pull it off essentially requires all of these skills to be off cooldown, it also requires that it not be dodged, or invuln'd, or blocked, or miss (blind), or interrupted. It is also very telegraphed because you can see them waiting for their Shield of Wrath duration to tick down before they do it.

Do you see the differences here? There are no big telegraphs to all of this condition output from some of these classes with condi heavy builds. Mirages near constantly just have their illusions/clones/phantasms active because Anet gave them access to having like 9 of them active at one time without really any indication that they are about to shatter their clones, not to mention scepter auto attack applying Torment alone. Yes the illusions perform an animation to depict the shatter....except they do this animation

after

the effect/damage already happens.

Well let me put it this way. I slapped on the runes of Anti-toxin and faced off against those very same Condition mesmers that are mentioned time and time again. They could barely damage me.

Condition applications take TIME to set up as well just as those power builds need to set their comboes up but with things like swap weapon remove 3 conditions (+1 if in Anti-toxin) Conditions are EASY to remove and are easier to remove then apply . My swapping a weapon is hard to read, can not be dodged and next to impossible to prevent unlike those combinations that apply conditions. Eviscerate, once it hits does its damage in an instant and again just as you can prevent the application of an eviscerate via dodge block or blind you can do the same things to Condition attacks. The frequency with which you can hit with those big condition bombs is much less then you suggest and you do not have to dodge block or mitigate every condition attack just as you do not have to do the same to every power attack. The vast majority of builds I encounter are power builds, and there a reason for that.

Here is something I think the both of you are neglecting as a variable in this discussion: Where was Mesmer before Mirage and the phantasm rework, even before PoF? Was it significantly underperforming? Was it on the bottom of the barrel? Did it suffer significantly in PvP? No. It didn't. In fact Chrono sat pretty high in the meta all throughout HoT, and I seem to recall Core Mesmer still being quite a force to be reckoned with in the right hands. Condi chrono anyone? Vanilla power shatter? Chronophantasma shatter? Mesmer actually used to be a class that required a fair bit of know-how to play very well. Did that make it a difficult choice for people who were less hardcore in the PvP front? Yeah, for sure, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It was a class that was very rewarding if you stuck with it and learned your stuff and it very much did not need the kind of kit it got with Mirage, nor did it need the rework it got with its phantasms that drastically increased the amount of clones we saw just being vomited out of mesmers.

You could make the argument that with the addition of all of the AoE PoF added that it was a worthwhile rework and tbh you might be right, with everything Scourge, Holo, Weaver, Firebrand, and Spellbreaker can do in terms of AoE maybe Mesmer needed to be brought in line with them in some way. However I don't think things needed to change in the way that they did and I certainly don't think it should have been changed that way without regard to the kind of mechanics Mirage has access to. Its overloaded.

[babazhook.6805]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@enkidu.5937 said:

@"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:Aside from specific classes being overtuned or not, if you want to tone down condition damage or application rate across the board, you really have to take into account how this will affect

every other

condition build. Reading the post i can tell that there is not much of a problem with most other condi builds, so i'm a bit confused as to why this would require a global nerf to conditions.I wonder if we could get a compromise between the two extremes: stacking in duration (as it was in the first years), and intensity (as it is now). Maybe cap fire and confusion stacks at 10 max., and let every additional application of fire / confusion increase duration.

I totally agree with you, that there are already enough tools (=condi cleanses), but they are almost useless against some of the condi bomb madness, nowadays. I just died because of a one-second fire tick for 8.8k (vs. core guard + scourge), though I had several condi cleanses ready-to-use. So this post is completely unbiased . . . xD

I think there still a bias among the entire playerbase when it comes to a condition death. As example you died to an 8.8 burn tick. This means you had around that in health remaining. Had a power build removed that 8.8k of health in a single attack (and there many attacks that do this much damage and more) , would you react the same way?

To be completely honest, it has less to do with the damage or dying to it but rather it has to do with how

frequently

this damage can be done or reapplied.

Take for instance Warrior and Eviscerate. Eviscerate can hit for 10k up to 14k (sometimes more but these are the numbers I see with mara/zerk gear). Eviscerate only does this kind of damage if the Warrior has 3 full bars of Adrenaline, at least 10+ stacks of Might, plus Swiftness (damage bonus of 3% from Warrior's Sprint), Peak Performance (20% damage increase for 6 sec after Physical skill is used aka Bull's Charge), and we assume Burst Mastery is traited. Also keeping in mind that it has a very telegraphed animation, the hit only applying after the full, very short distance leap is performed. If you miss (blind), it is blocked, invuln'd, interrupted, or evaded you lose all of that adrenaline and it goes onto at least a 6 and a half second cooldown not counting needing to build 3 bars of adrenaline again plus setting everything else up.

Another example could be Core Guardian. Yes it can deal out a significant chunk of burst in a very short amount of time, but this all requires timing and actually landing a chain of skills. This is typically done with its burst combo of "Shield of Wrath (wait for duration to tick lower) > Weapon swap > Mighty Blow > Judge's Intervention (used near the end of Mighty Blow animation) > Virtue of Justice > Smite Condition (optional). Glacial Heart also may proc during this combo. Keep in mind this is the main big damage source for Core Guardian and to pull it off essentially requires all of these skills to be off cooldown, it also requires that it not be dodged, or invuln'd, or blocked, or miss (blind), or interrupted. It is also very telegraphed because you can see them waiting for their Shield of Wrath duration to tick down before they do it.

Do you see the differences here? There are no big telegraphs to all of this condition output from some of these classes with condi heavy builds. Mirages near constantly just have their illusions/clones/phantasms active because Anet gave them access to having like 9 of them active at one time without really any indication that they are about to shatter their clones, not to mention scepter auto attack applying Torment alone. Yes the illusions perform an animation to depict the shatter....except they do this animation

after

the effect/damage already happens.

kill clones, dodge initial phantasm attack so they wont even spawn. 3 clones is the Limit. F2 has a 21 second CD when traited. Mirage attacks can be blocked/blinded too?Mirage combo is , axe 2 , axe 2 , jaunt , axe 3 , F2, so it spent a lot of things too. Axe 2 is easy telegraphed, most mirages use dodge in between so it cant get canceled - dodge or block this. If u run away, axe 3 will never hit u. You can still dodge to block the whole Axe 3. Mirages will shatter after Axe 3 so u can mitigate the shatter "burst" too.

Plenty of ways to counter the Class, just like any other one...

Scepter has 900 range and is clunky as hell. The shatter animation is when a RANGED clone is running towards u with 10 Units/second - movespeed. Try auto it once with any power class, and your gucci.

Stay out of meele to avoid Shatters - Plenty of good Players could do this vs me - so negating my only win condition.

Did anyone of u actually died to any form of Mesmer, without their Shatters?

Vs. any good player i'm struggling to ever have 3 clones at the same time...Problem is ; bad players just dont want to kill my clones. They think they only need to damage me, so in fact they simply try to ignore my class mechanic.

Same thing as running into a Reaper when shroud is 100% and afterwards crying, because it had so much HP.

In the case of a decently competent, potentially annoying build running condi mirage you may essentially be spending all your time on clearing those clones. In fact this happened to me today while roaming in WvW. I was 1v1ing a condi mirage and yeah sure they had no pressure on me on my Core Warrior because I kept clearing out their clones and avoiding the shatter procs of torment and also not activating skills while I had 7+ stacks of Confusion on me. However I couldn't pressure them while I was in the midst of doing this which allowed for their defensive cooldowns to become available again, which meant that if I pushed for CC or other pressure they either evaded/invuln'd or had their stun break available again which meant I couldn't put enough damage into them before they just stealthed and healed again.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@enkidu.5937 said:

@"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:Aside from specific classes being overtuned or not, if you want to tone down condition damage or application rate across the board, you really have to take into account how this will affect

every other

condition build. Reading the post i can tell that there is not much of a problem with most other condi builds, so i'm a bit confused as to why this would require a global nerf to conditions.I wonder if we could get a compromise between the two extremes: stacking in duration (as it was in the first years), and intensity (as it is now). Maybe cap fire and confusion stacks at 10 max., and let every additional application of fire / confusion increase duration.

I totally agree with you, that there are already enough tools (=condi cleanses), but they are almost useless against some of the condi bomb madness, nowadays. I just died because of a one-second fire tick for 8.8k (vs. core guard + scourge), though I had several condi cleanses ready-to-use. So this post is completely unbiased . . . xD

I think there still a bias among the entire playerbase when it comes to a condition death. As example you died to an 8.8 burn tick. This means you had around that in health remaining. Had a power build removed that 8.8k of health in a single attack (and there many attacks that do this much damage and more) , would you react the same way?

To be completely honest, it has less to do with the damage or dying to it but rather it has to do with how

frequently

this damage can be done or reapplied.

Take for instance Warrior and Eviscerate. Eviscerate can hit for 10k up to 14k (sometimes more but these are the numbers I see with mara/zerk gear). Eviscerate only does this kind of damage if the Warrior has 3 full bars of Adrenaline, at least 10+ stacks of Might, plus Swiftness (damage bonus of 3% from Warrior's Sprint), Peak Performance (20% damage increase for 6 sec after Physical skill is used aka Bull's Charge), and we assume Burst Mastery is traited. Also keeping in mind that it has a very telegraphed animation, the hit only applying after the full, very short distance leap is performed. If you miss (blind), it is blocked, invuln'd, interrupted, or evaded you lose all of that adrenaline and it goes onto at least a 6 and a half second cooldown not counting needing to build 3 bars of adrenaline again plus setting everything else up.

Another example could be Core Guardian. Yes it can deal out a significant chunk of burst in a very short amount of time, but this all requires timing and actually landing a chain of skills. This is typically done with its burst combo of "Shield of Wrath (wait for duration to tick lower) > Weapon swap > Mighty Blow > Judge's Intervention (used near the end of Mighty Blow animation) > Virtue of Justice > Smite Condition (optional). Glacial Heart also may proc during this combo. Keep in mind this is the main big damage source for Core Guardian and to pull it off essentially requires all of these skills to be off cooldown, it also requires that it not be dodged, or invuln'd, or blocked, or miss (blind), or interrupted. It is also very telegraphed because you can see them waiting for their Shield of Wrath duration to tick down before they do it.

Do you see the differences here? There are no big telegraphs to all of this condition output from some of these classes with condi heavy builds. Mirages near constantly just have their illusions/clones/phantasms active because Anet gave them access to having like 9 of them active at one time without really any indication that they are about to shatter their clones, not to mention scepter auto attack applying Torment alone. Yes the illusions perform an animation to depict the shatter....except they do this animation

after

the effect/damage already happens.

Well let me put it this way. I slapped on the runes of Anti-toxin and faced off against those very same Condition mesmers that are mentioned time and time again. They could barely damage me.

Condition applications take TIME to set up as well just as those power builds need to set their comboes up but with things like swap weapon remove 3 conditions (+1 if in Anti-toxin) Conditions are EASY to remove and are easier to remove then apply . My swapping a weapon is hard to read, can not be dodged and next to impossible to prevent unlike those combinations that apply conditions. Eviscerate, once it hits does its damage in an instant and again just as you can prevent the application of an eviscerate via dodge block or blind you can do the same things to Condition attacks. The frequency with which you can hit with those big condition bombs is much less then you suggest and you do not have to dodge block or mitigate every condition attack just as you do not have to do the same to every power attack. The vast majority of builds I encounter are power builds, and there a reason for that.

Here is something I think the both of you are neglecting as a variable in this discussion: Where was Mesmer before Mirage and the phantasm rework, even before PoF? Was it significantly underperforming? Was it on the bottom of the barrel? Did it suffer significantly in PvP? No. It didn't. In fact Chrono sat pretty high in the meta all throughout HoT, and I seem to recall Core Mesmer still being quite a force to be reckoned with

in the right hands

. Condi chrono anyone? Vanilla power shatter? Chronophantasma shatter? Mesmer actually used to be a class that required a fair bit of know-how to play very well. Did that make it a difficult choice for people who were less hardcore in the PvP front? Yeah, for sure, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It was a class that was very rewarding if you stuck with it and learned your stuff and it very much did not need the kind of kit it got with Mirage, nor did it need the rework it got with its phantasms that drastically increased the amount of clones we saw just being vomited out of mesmers.

You could make the argument that with the addition of all of the AoE PoF added that it was a worthwhile rework and tbh you might be right, with everything Scourge, Holo, Weaver, Firebrand, and Spellbreaker can do in terms of AoE maybe Mesmer needed to be brought in line with them in some way. However I don't think things needed to change in the way that they did and I certainly don't think it should have been changed that way without regard to the kind of mechanics Mirage has access to. Its overloaded.

I am not well versed with the Mesmer albeit I have one at 80 taken there via scroll. That said ALL professions got "easier" to play and not just the Mirage as Power was creeped. This is true of Condition builds and on Power builds. The fact remains that out all the classes there only two that see Condition specs played close to what power specs are played within that same profession and this continually ignored as people continue to call for more nerfs to Condition builds.

Pointing out that Mesmer used to be very good in the right hands has nothing to do with this as that true across all classes power and condition both.

Again the OP claimed Condition damage is not damage over t[ime which is false. He claimed that Condition application completely outclasses Cleanses. Not only MUST this happen in order for there to be any sort of danger from a Condition class , but there has been all manner of cleanses added across all specs. Again the results of those are demonstrated by the ever growing number of Power classes versus conditions.

I generally play Thief and warrior and tinker with builds on an ongoing basis. I have built two specs to be especially resilient to Conditions and and have found this easier to do today then 6 months ago just because of all those added cleanses. Yes a Condi Mirage can still pose issues but that is 1 proffession and 1 spec. Why no concern over the fact that POWER dominates the vast majority of builds? It seems to me people are not going to be happy until every condition build neutered to nothingness.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"FaboBabo.3581" said:Dont get confused by clones (lol).Its kind of funny...

Yesterday I met a scourge and a soulbeast from the same guild. Usually a pretty dangerous combo as one pewpew from range while the other do AoE denial and barrier tank. I went after the soulbeast first - he soon popped invouln as expected from a meta build. Kited them, then downed the sb. Unfortunetly the scourge was actually dangerous in terms of damage and brought the sb up again... and then he went down again. And up again. And popped another invouln. Finally it was "kitten it I need to down that scourge, going by the fight so far I'll let him pewpew". So I fight him head on, get him low, get him downed, stomp...

... and see the soulbeast looking in the complete opposite direction fully channeling barrage at a clone. While I was stomping. Without stealth. He died about 2s later. Because for some reason he was a glass cannon that did no damage.

Either way WvW isnt as simple as looking at classes. Its far more complicated than that, especially if we are only talking a random fight against someone you havent fought before.

If they had been good? I probably would have been knocked back, had a nuke with 10 condis while feared and a 12k+ rapid fire down my throat within the first seconds. But no. The initial engagement was them hugging each other at arms length at a sentry and me running straight at them flailing my arms yelling "OH BOY HERE I GO KILLING AGAIN!" as loud as possible.

I bet they called mirage OP.

Then later two of us (both mirages) met a soulbeast that kited halfway across the map, fought us 1v1 when the other had tp on cd and did enough damage to nearly down us while also healing like crazy. That 2v1 fight lasted 3x longer than my 1v2 fight.

Skill. Matters. Build. Matters.

But no... mirage OP!!!

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@enkidu.5937 said:

@"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:Aside from specific classes being overtuned or not, if you want to tone down condition damage or application rate across the board, you really have to take into account how this will affect

every other

condition build. Reading the post i can tell that there is not much of a problem with most other condi builds, so i'm a bit confused as to why this would require a global nerf to conditions.I wonder if we could get a compromise between the two extremes: stacking in duration (as it was in the first years), and intensity (as it is now). Maybe cap fire and confusion stacks at 10 max., and let every additional application of fire / confusion increase duration.

I totally agree with you, that there are already enough tools (=condi cleanses), but they are almost useless against some of the condi bomb madness, nowadays. I just died because of a one-second fire tick for 8.8k (vs. core guard + scourge), though I had several condi cleanses ready-to-use. So this post is completely unbiased . . . xD

I think there still a bias among the entire playerbase when it comes to a condition death. As example you died to an 8.8 burn tick. This means you had around that in health remaining. Had a power build removed that 8.8k of health in a single attack (and there many attacks that do this much damage and more) , would you react the same way?

To be completely honest, it has less to do with the damage or dying to it but rather it has to do with how

frequently

this damage can be done or reapplied.

Take for instance Warrior and Eviscerate. Eviscerate can hit for 10k up to 14k (sometimes more but these are the numbers I see with mara/zerk gear). Eviscerate only does this kind of damage if the Warrior has 3 full bars of Adrenaline, at least 10+ stacks of Might, plus Swiftness (damage bonus of 3% from Warrior's Sprint), Peak Performance (20% damage increase for 6 sec after Physical skill is used aka Bull's Charge), and we assume Burst Mastery is traited. Also keeping in mind that it has a very telegraphed animation, the hit only applying after the full, very short distance leap is performed. If you miss (blind), it is blocked, invuln'd, interrupted, or evaded you lose all of that adrenaline and it goes onto at least a 6 and a half second cooldown not counting needing to build 3 bars of adrenaline again plus setting everything else up.

Another example could be Core Guardian. Yes it can deal out a significant chunk of burst in a very short amount of time, but this all requires timing and actually landing a chain of skills. This is typically done with its burst combo of "Shield of Wrath (wait for duration to tick lower) > Weapon swap > Mighty Blow > Judge's Intervention (used near the end of Mighty Blow animation) > Virtue of Justice > Smite Condition (optional). Glacial Heart also may proc during this combo. Keep in mind this is the main big damage source for Core Guardian and to pull it off essentially requires all of these skills to be off cooldown, it also requires that it not be dodged, or invuln'd, or blocked, or miss (blind), or interrupted. It is also very telegraphed because you can see them waiting for their Shield of Wrath duration to tick down before they do it.

Do you see the differences here? There are no big telegraphs to all of this condition output from some of these classes with condi heavy builds. Mirages near constantly just have their illusions/clones/phantasms active because Anet gave them access to having like 9 of them active at one time without really any indication that they are about to shatter their clones, not to mention scepter auto attack applying Torment alone. Yes the illusions perform an animation to depict the shatter....except they do this animation

after

the effect/damage already happens.

kill clones, dodge initial phantasm attack so they wont even spawn. 3 clones is the Limit. F2 has a 21 second CD when traited. Mirage attacks can be blocked/blinded too?Mirage combo is , axe 2 , axe 2 , jaunt , axe 3 , F2, so it spent a lot of things too. Axe 2 is easy telegraphed, most mirages use dodge in between so it cant get canceled - dodge or block this. If u run away, axe 3 will never hit u. You can still dodge to block the whole Axe 3. Mirages will shatter after Axe 3 so u can mitigate the shatter "burst" too.

Plenty of ways to counter the Class, just like any other one...

Scepter has 900 range and is clunky as hell. The shatter animation is when a RANGED clone is running towards u with 10 Units/second - movespeed. Try auto it once with any power class, and your gucci.

Stay out of meele to avoid Shatters - Plenty of good Players could do this vs me - so negating my only win condition.

Did anyone of u actually died to any form of Mesmer, without their Shatters?

Vs. any good player i'm struggling to ever have 3 clones at the same time...Problem is ; bad players just dont want to kill my clones. They think they only need to damage me, so in fact they simply try to ignore my class mechanic.

Same thing as running into a Reaper when shroud is 100% and afterwards crying, because it had so much HP.

In the case of a decently competent, potentially annoying build running condi mirage you may essentially be spending all your time on clearing those clones. In fact this happened to me today while roaming in WvW. I was 1v1ing a condi mirage and yeah sure they had no pressure on me on my Core Warrior because I kept clearing out their clones and avoiding the shatter procs of torment and also not activating skills while I had 7+ stacks of Confusion on me. However I couldn't pressure them while I was in the midst of doing this which allowed for their defensive cooldowns to become available again, which meant that if I pushed for CC or other pressure they either evaded/invuln'd or had their stun break available again which meant I couldn't put enough damage into them before they just stealthed and healed again.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@enkidu.5937 said:

@"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:Aside from specific classes being overtuned or not, if you want to tone down condition damage or application rate across the board, you really have to take into account how this will affect

every other

condition build. Reading the post i can tell that there is not much of a problem with most other condi builds, so i'm a bit confused as to why this would require a global nerf to conditions.I wonder if we could get a compromise between the two extremes: stacking in duration (as it was in the first years), and intensity (as it is now). Maybe cap fire and confusion stacks at 10 max., and let every additional application of fire / confusion increase duration.

I totally agree with you, that there are already enough tools (=condi cleanses), but they are almost useless against some of the condi bomb madness, nowadays. I just died because of a one-second fire tick for 8.8k (vs. core guard + scourge), though I had several condi cleanses ready-to-use. So this post is completely unbiased . . . xD

I think there still a bias among the entire playerbase when it comes to a condition death. As example you died to an 8.8 burn tick. This means you had around that in health remaining. Had a power build removed that 8.8k of health in a single attack (and there many attacks that do this much damage and more) , would you react the same way?

To be completely honest, it has less to do with the damage or dying to it but rather it has to do with how

frequently

this damage can be done or reapplied.

Take for instance Warrior and Eviscerate. Eviscerate can hit for 10k up to 14k (sometimes more but these are the numbers I see with mara/zerk gear). Eviscerate only does this kind of damage if the Warrior has 3 full bars of Adrenaline, at least 10+ stacks of Might, plus Swiftness (damage bonus of 3% from Warrior's Sprint), Peak Performance (20% damage increase for 6 sec after Physical skill is used aka Bull's Charge), and we assume Burst Mastery is traited. Also keeping in mind that it has a very telegraphed animation, the hit only applying after the full, very short distance leap is performed. If you miss (blind), it is blocked, invuln'd, interrupted, or evaded you lose all of that adrenaline and it goes onto at least a 6 and a half second cooldown not counting needing to build 3 bars of adrenaline again plus setting everything else up.

Another example could be Core Guardian. Yes it can deal out a significant chunk of burst in a very short amount of time, but this all requires timing and actually landing a chain of skills. This is typically done with its burst combo of "Shield of Wrath (wait for duration to tick lower) > Weapon swap > Mighty Blow > Judge's Intervention (used near the end of Mighty Blow animation) > Virtue of Justice > Smite Condition (optional). Glacial Heart also may proc during this combo. Keep in mind this is the main big damage source for Core Guardian and to pull it off essentially requires all of these skills to be off cooldown, it also requires that it not be dodged, or invuln'd, or blocked, or miss (blind), or interrupted. It is also very telegraphed because you can see them waiting for their Shield of Wrath duration to tick down before they do it.

Do you see the differences here? There are no big telegraphs to all of this condition output from some of these classes with condi heavy builds. Mirages near constantly just have their illusions/clones/phantasms active because Anet gave them access to having like 9 of them active at one time without really any indication that they are about to shatter their clones, not to mention scepter auto attack applying Torment alone. Yes the illusions perform an animation to depict the shatter....except they do this animation

after

the effect/damage already happens.

Well let me put it this way. I slapped on the runes of Anti-toxin and faced off against those very same Condition mesmers that are mentioned time and time again. They could barely damage me.

Condition applications take TIME to set up as well just as those power builds need to set their comboes up but with things like swap weapon remove 3 conditions (+1 if in Anti-toxin) Conditions are EASY to remove and are easier to remove then apply . My swapping a weapon is hard to read, can not be dodged and next to impossible to prevent unlike those combinations that apply conditions. Eviscerate, once it hits does its damage in an instant and again just as you can prevent the application of an eviscerate via dodge block or blind you can do the same things to Condition attacks. The frequency with which you can hit with those big condition bombs is much less then you suggest and you do not have to dodge block or mitigate every condition attack just as you do not have to do the same to every power attack. The vast majority of builds I encounter are power builds, and there a reason for that.

Here is something I think the both of you are neglecting as a variable in this discussion: Where was Mesmer before Mirage and the phantasm rework, even before PoF? Was it significantly underperforming? Was it on the bottom of the barrel? Did it suffer significantly in PvP? No. It didn't. In fact Chrono sat pretty high in the meta all throughout HoT, and I seem to recall Core Mesmer still being quite a force to be reckoned with

in the right hands

. Condi chrono anyone? Vanilla power shatter? Chronophantasma shatter? Mesmer actually used to be a class that required a fair bit of know-how to play very well. Did that make it a difficult choice for people who were less hardcore in the PvP front? Yeah, for sure, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It was a class that was very rewarding if you stuck with it and learned your stuff and it very much did not need the kind of kit it got with Mirage, nor did it need the rework it got with its phantasms that drastically increased the amount of clones we saw just being vomited out of mesmers.

You could make the argument that with the addition of all of the AoE PoF added that it was a worthwhile rework and tbh you might be right, with everything Scourge, Holo, Weaver, Firebrand, and Spellbreaker can do in terms of AoE maybe Mesmer needed to be brought in line with them in some way. However I don't think things needed to change in the way that they did and I certainly don't think it should have been changed that way without regard to the kind of mechanics Mirage has access to. Its overloaded.

I am not well versed with the Mesmer albeit I have one at 80 taken there via scroll. That said ALL professions got "easier" to play and not just the Mirage as Power was creeped. This is true of Condition builds and on Power builds. The fact remains that out all the classes there only two that see Condition specs played close to what power specs are played within that same profession and this continually ignored as people continue to call for more nerfs to Condition builds.

Pointing out that Mesmer used to be very good in the right hands has nothing to do with this as that true across all classes power and condition both.

Again the OP claimed Condition damage is not damage over t[ime which is false. He claimed that Condition application completely outclasses Cleanses. Not only MUST this happen in order for there to be any sort of danger from a Condition class , but there has been all manner of cleanses added across all specs. Again the results of those are demonstrated by the ever growing number of Power classes versus conditions.

I generally play Thief and warrior and tinker with builds on an ongoing basis. I have built two specs to be especially resilient to Conditions and and have found this easier to do today then 6 months ago just because of all those added cleanses. Yes a Condi Mirage can still pose issues but that is 1 proffession and 1 spec. Why no concern over the fact that POWER dominates the vast majority of builds? It seems to me people are not going to be happy until every condition build neutered to nothingness.

Condition is played on those two classes primarily because it is so strong. I'm not saying for them to nerf conditions down to unusable degrees, I don't think that at all. In fact I think the issue lies mostly on the condi mirage itself. Scourge has been toned down significantly compared to how it was before and it has clear counters with kiting. Mirage doesn't necessarily have this issue because it can kite better than most other classes and can keep up with people who would try to kite them so your only counter is to just clear clones, but that still leaves moments where you are not pressuring Mirage because of the amount of clones you're needing to clear to keep their damage from stacking up on you.

I think you missed my point. Condi is strong, in fact I think it does just need to get tuned down a little because on the classes that have access to the ability to excessively stack conditions it doesn't punish them as much for using cooldowns. Issues with Scourge have mostly been remedied so I think its probably in a better place than it used to be, but Mirage is still very overtuned in that it can apply a tremendous amount of condition damage and has enough defenses (mobility, evades, invulns, stealth, block, blind) to make it one of the most difficult classes to lock down. Druid also falls into this category with how it is performing where its just not fun to fight against ever, but thats another topic.

My point is that I feel a lot of these issues stem from Mirage and while I am in agreement that a majority of players really just don't know how to fight most classes you then still encounter players that do and they still find mirage to be a consistent pest and not an enjoyable fight when it comes to them running a condition build. Mirage power builds feel more manageable to fight against to some extent but the underlying issue with Mirage still stands, also at least power shatter mesmers are squishy...condi ones aren't. Trailblazers. Hybrid (viper/cele).

Now you try to point out that you have built two specs to be especially resilient to Conditions, so I'm curious to know exactly what these builds actually look like and I'll tell you right now, you're not inventing the wheel. I get the feeling they won't be anything people haven't already attempted or thought about or considered but then remembered that building to counter something very specific leads you to being tremendously weak against everything else.

[babazhook.6805]

Now you try to point out that you have built two specs to be especially resilient to Conditions, so I'm curious to know exactly what these builds actually look like and I'll tell you right now, you're not inventing the wheel. I get the feeling they won't be anything people haven't already attempted or thought about or considered but then remembered that building to counter something very specific leads you to being tremendously weak against everything else.

The one build is a warrior using Shouts and able to generate 5K plus burns with relative ease , sitting in 4k armor with shout heals of 2k+ each. The build is weak against ranged but can deal with power and condition specs at melee. Heal on stunbreaks is 5k which added to regular heals and those shouts. That said having a build that is equally viable against the best power builds and the best condition builds is NOT good game balance.

Trickster on a thief offers tremendous cleanse utility and especially if using new anti-toxin. Weapon swap also now affords a three condition cleanse every 9 seconds on any build which readily gets at conditions applied by builds relying on one or two types (such as BURN guardian). Putting this sigil on does NOT make you weaker against everyone else. If you are relying on a sigil for your damage output you have other issues with the build. Using Trickster in conjunction comes with a myriad of other benefits such more haste access, stunbreaks , INI regen and the like even outside Anti Toxin runes. You are not getting JUST condition cleanse. On thief most take Bountiful theft so yes I lose that boon theft access but with the amount of Boon spam out there I find a theft of a handful every 20 some odd seconds just not that productive.

No where did I state the wheel being reinvented. I was pointing out you CAN trait up more cleanses. That people choose not to and then come complain on the boards that a Condi build kills them is on them.

Back to Condition mesmer not being squishy enough for a power user. Those mesmers tend to be weak against Conditions and as far as Toughness/armor goes , every second or third week I am reading that higher armor accomplishes nothing against Power builds as the output of power damage so very high. Go see the Complaints about DE thief, Soulbeast and the "i was in 3k armor and dropped in a second".

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/24023/toughness-questioning-its-value

Now on the theif I slapped those Anti-toxin runes on, it has total armor of around 2700. This not as high as it could be in dire but I was facing off several times against a Condi mesmer/Power Holo team. It was the power Holo that was doing all the damage hitting me regularliy for 6-8kon single hits. The Condition mesmer's damage output was minimal. Indeed i do not think it did 8k in sum total through any of the fights on reviewing the logs. Power was doing me in.

[Kaiser.9873]

And my Herald will hammer you to the face with a 10K phase smash and a 13K CoR in less time than the ticks killed you. Power/Condi = kill you equally well.

[sephiroth.4217]

Welcome to 2018

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@"babazhook.6805" said:

Now you try to point out that you have built two specs to be especially resilient to Conditions, so I'm curious to know exactly what these builds actually look like and I'll tell you right now, you're not inventing the wheel. I get the feeling they won't be anything people haven't already attempted or thought about or considered but then remembered that building to counter something very specific leads you to being tremendously weak against everything else.

The one build is a warrior using Shouts and able to generate 5K plus burns with relative ease , sitting in 4k armor with shout heals of 2k+ each. The build is weak against ranged but can deal with power and condition specs at melee. Heal on stunbreaks is 5k which added to regular heals and those shouts. That said having a build that is equally viable against the best power builds and the best condition builds is NOT good game balance.

Trickster on a thief offers tremendous cleanse utility and especially if using new anti-toxin. Weapon swap also now affords a three condition cleanse every 9 seconds on any build which readily gets at conditions applied by builds relying on one or two types (such as BURN guardian). Putting this sigil on does NOT make you weaker against everyone else. If you are relying on a sigil for your damage output you have other issues with the build. Using Trickster in conjunction comes with a myriad of other benefits such more haste access, stunbreaks , INI regen and the like even outside Anti Toxin runes. You are not getting JUST condition cleanse. On thief most take Bountiful theft so yes I lose that boon theft access but with the amount of Boon spam out there I find a theft of a handful every 20 some odd seconds just not that productive.

No where did I state the wheel being reinvented. I was pointing out you CAN trait up more cleanses. That people choose not to and then come complain on the boards that a Condi build kills them is on them.

Back to Condition mesmer not being squishy enough for a power user. Those mesmers tend to be weak against Conditions and as far as Toughness/armor goes , every second or third week I am reading that higher armor accomplishes nothing against Power builds as the output of power damage so very high. Go see the Complaints about DE thief, Soulbeast and the "i was in 3k armor and dropped in a second".

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/24023/toughness-questioning-its-value

Now on the theif I slapped those Anti-toxin runes on, it has total armor of around 2700. This not as high as it could be in dire but I was facing off several times against a Condi mesmer/Power Holo team. It was the power Holo that was doing all the damage hitting me regularliy for 6-8kon single hits. The Condition mesmer's damage output was minimal. Indeed i do not think it did 8k in sum total through any of the fights on reviewing the logs. Power was doing me in.

Okay, yes there are options available to combat conditions...except the way you have to build to specifically handle the amount of conditions coming in means you are essentially gimping yourself in other areas. You should try linking the builds you made, use gw2skills.net its pretty useful. However to me it doesn't sound like your build does anything more than just make you survive against conditions. Maybe the build works against the frequent derpadoo casual PvPer in WvW but outside of that...honestly kind of doubt it.

As for the thread you linked, first off the builds the OP of the thread was "considering" are silly snowflake randomness that apparently doesn't even use bear pet for whatever reason despite wanting to be tankier, is ignoring the Stoneform trait, also doesn't even have Signet of Stone on their bar, is using Entangle rather than Strength of the Pack for the Stability (important for surviving in PvP), is using Rune of the Pack rather than Rune of Durability and didn't put any shouts on their bar despite the fact that Ranger, Core included, can get some seriously insane uptime on both regen and protection boons.

Keep in mind that meta builds are built around having adequate enough cleanses to be able to handle some of the conditions being put out on them yet there are still some that are weaker to conditions which is understandable and fine to be honest, and players will play around that by kiting more or using other defensive tools to mitigate conditions being applied to them. Look at how you might typically deal with Scourges, kiting is the go to method of mitigating the amount of conditions they apply to you and forcing them to waste their boon corrupt skills so that if you have Resistance it isn't corrupted into Cripple.

I'm not asking them to nuke conditions down to be unusable, I'm saying that with they way conditions are right now paired with how Mirage works, just in that specific circumstance, Mirage needs to get toned down as well. Or at the very least they need to make it so that condi classes can't just stack up about 8 different conditions on you at once, and I mean 8 different ones, to essentially just put a buffer that you need to clear first before cleansing the 15 stacks of Torment or whatever they stacked on you first since cleanses only ever clear the most recently applied conditions from you. It kind of defeats the purpose of the cleanse when the one class can put 15 stacks of Torment then Vulnerability, Cripple, Chill, Burning, Poison, Blind, Bleeding on you right afterwards so you can't cleanse the Torment. At least Scourge has a grace period in which they are hindered in applying Conditions if they use too many of their CDs or you avoid the skills that do that. Mirage doesn't really have that...nor does it have as obvious of a tell for it.

[babazhook.6805]

Okay, yes there are options available to combat conditions...except the way you have to build to specifically handle the amount of conditions coming in means you are essentially gimping yourself in other areas. You should try linking the builds you made, use gw2skills.net its pretty useful. However to me it doesn't sound like your build does anything more than just make you survive against conditions. Maybe the build works against the frequent derpadoo casual PvPer in WvW but outside of that...honestly kind of doubt it.

See you continue to insist this the case and it NOT. You simply ignore the fact that you can trait up a number of Utilities to do more work for you wherein while you add a condition cleanse , you are not sacrificing the ability to inflict damage and or use that same skill for things other then conditions.

Here a simple example in THIEF. Most people that play thief will take Signet of Agility. It a great multi-purpose skill that offers endurance, condition cleanse and precision+ endurance. If one compared it directly to Scorpion Wire SOA wins. The thing is SOA is at its ceiling and it pretty hard to make better whereas you can make Scorpion Wire do a lot more work for you.

So I speak to WvW here using a power build thief . Trait up SW with Trickster and I now get that interrupt/pull with some amount of damage along with condition cleanse. Due to the 16 second Cooldown trickster allows this gives an added 4 condition cleanses in 20 seconds. Not so bad now when compared to SOA and you even get more cleanses without having to surrender precision to do it. So what of that precision? Slap on a Severance sigil. Everytime you ge an interrupt you now have an added 250 precision with 250 ferocity. This is far more damage then what the SOA can put out. You still get those cleanses and your damage output is going up. That not all though. Use Sigil of celerity as your other Sigil and That SW of which you can use 4 in 20 seconds now interrupts, does damage, pulls , adds quickness , adds 250 ferocity adds 250 precision and cleanses , all on a single successful use. No damage out is "given up".

So where exactly have you gimped yourself? Now Imagine you an s/x build, most of those take Acro. Not only do you have a built in cleanse on the sword, but Acro is full of traits that remove conditions including those Cover conditions. If you are taking Acro anyways what are you giving up to take Acro? Assume in that build you are not facing a condition build , all of those skills are of use as is the condition removal because power builds will use Immobs, weakness slow cripple , blinds, fear and Vulnerability. Those Condition removals work against all of those skills. Power ranger loaded 20 Vuln onto you ? remove it. Conditions are not all about those that do damage.

To your heal now. On Thief one of the most popular is Withdraw and with Trickster traited that on an ICD of under 15 seconds. That pulls off chill. cripple , immob and torment. The traited trickster pulls off another condition and if you got EA and manage an evade ANOTHER condition peeled off. How exactly do you think this GIMPS your build? Even if facing pure power builds this one of the more popular heals.

Withdraw does not gimp your build when fighting other specs. SW does not Gimp your build when fighting other Specs yet the two together can get you a whole lot of condition removal.

Now that all said there IS something given up and that choosing Trickster over Bountiful theft. I have found that BT used to be much more effective when there much less in the way of boons flying around. It simply too easy to reapply boons once they removed. Yes you can use BT to get at that Stab but again this not as effective in a battle then when we had the Old stability. I do NOT feel taking Trickster over BT Gimps your build and in reality taking Trickster over BT is the only change you are making in a typical power build loadout. So now you slap on a Purity Sigil onto your SB which is usually used as a utility weapon , again nothing really given up that "gimps your build" and 3 more cleanses on weapon swap to that SB

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@"Xtinct.7031" said:I had to chime in on this, because it is players like this OP that really irk me.

People like this OP continuously push this crusade to turn condition damage into something unviable in the player vs player, w v w gamemode.

Guess what, Anet is listening to these people and giving them what they want, the death of condition damage along with more access to cleansing mechanics and a continuation of the current power creep.

Correctly place the blame where it needs to go, mesmers and stop insisting that condition dmg in general needs to be reduced.Yeah, this. With power builds, it's always "this specific profession/build/skill is OP", with condition builds it's "all conditions are OP". Most professions don't even have viable condition builds any more because of heavy-handed across-the-board nerfs due to players complaining.

[zinkz.7045]

Putting aside that pretty much everything in the game has been powercreeped to a silly extent, conditions are no worse than anything else. Just because mirage is an OP noob carrier for roaming that doesn't make condies OP, it just means that spec is OP. You can apply the same exact same thing for power, do you think being able to hit 25k+ mauls on soulbeast makes all power builds OP?

[Dawdler.8521]

@zinkz.7045 said:Putting aside that pretty much everything in the game has been powercreeped to a silly extent, conditions are no worse than anything else. Just because mirage is an OP noob carrier for roaming that doesn't make condies OP, it just means that spec is OP. You can apply the same exact same thing for power, do you think being able to hit 25k+ mauls on soulbeast makes all power builds OP?Well... yes? Theoretically it does mean mean everything is OP. Is there any class that havent posted a leet roaming video of them instakilling someone with 20k+ damage?

[Simonoly.4352]

@Lucentfir.7430 said:

@"Xtinct.7031" said:I had to chime in on this, because it is players like this OP that really irk me.

People like this OP continuously push this crusade to turn condition damage into something unviable in the player vs player, w v w gamemode.

Guess what, Anet is listening to these people and giving them what they want, the death of condition damage along with more access to cleansing mechanics and a continuation of the current power creep.

Correctly place the blame where it needs to go, mesmers and stop insisting that condition dmg in general needs to be reduced.

^ Not all condi is bad, especially now that there are more options for condi removal and mitigation. Just a select few builds are absolutely bonkers due to some design choices(this includes power). On the topic of condi mirage, it's extremely faceroll-y and very very forgiving. I took it out for a spin one day with a budget build with essentials(Energy Sigils/adventure runes/ Mostly dire and some rabids) and did just great with little worry and effort. Here's a vid of some moments where I just trolled around and I'm not even a very good mesmer player.

Whilst certain Mirage builds are certainly very powerful, the calibre of player you were fighting for most of this video was so low that you would have been better on a power build simply because you could have killed them far far quicker. So much back peddling and random dodging - it's just like a feast for any roamers!

[zinkz.7045]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@zinkz.7045 said:Putting aside that pretty much everything in the game has been powercreeped to a silly extent, conditions are no worse than anything else. Just because mirage is an OP noob carrier for roaming that doesn't make condies OP, it just means that spec is OP. You can apply the same exact same thing for power, do you think being able to hit 25k+ mauls on soulbeast makes all power builds OP?Well... yes? Theoretically it does mean mean everything is OP. Is there any class that

havent

posted a leet roaming video of them instakilling someone with 20k+ damage?

Well..no. Because that is a different thing to what I stated, soulbeast can hit 25k+ hitting you with one skill, unless things have magically changed since last time I played this game, then most other specs can't do that. Hence the point was nerfing condie, power or whatever across the board on the basis of one or two extreme OP specs is illogical.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"Kaiser.9873" said:And my Herald will hammer you to the face with a 10K phase smash and a 13K CoR in less time than the ticks killed you. Power/Condi = kill you equally well.

Or I hit my weapon swap and my sigil cleanses 3 conditions immediately, then hit staff 4 and cleanse 2 more.

But if in a circuitous way the OP is suggesting that damage in WvW is too high (yes even Condi) then I agree. When I get condi bombed it isn't the same as a game like WoW where you are "dotted" up with damage over time abilities - in GW2 you just flat out melt.

[Lucentfir.7430]

@Simonoly.4352 said:

@Lucentfir.7430 said:

@"Xtinct.7031" said:I had to chime in on this, because it is players like this OP that really irk me.

People like this OP continuously push this crusade to turn condition damage into something unviable in the player vs player, w v w gamemode.

Guess what, Anet is listening to these people and giving them what they want, the death of condition damage along with more access to cleansing mechanics and a continuation of the current power creep.

Correctly place the blame where it needs to go, mesmers and stop insisting that condition dmg in general needs to be reduced.

^ Not all condi is bad, especially now that there are more options for condi removal and mitigation. Just a select few builds are absolutely bonkers due to some design choices(this includes power). On the topic of condi mirage, it's extremely faceroll-y and very very forgiving. I took it out for a spin one day with a budget build with essentials(Energy Sigils/adventure runes/ Mostly dire and some rabids) and did just great with little worry and effort. Here's a vid of some moments where I just trolled around and I'm not even a very good mesmer player.

Whilst certain Mirage builds are certainly very powerful, the calibre of player you were fighting for most of this video was so low that you would have been better on a power build simply because you could have killed them far far quicker. So much back peddling and random dodging - it's just like a feast for any roamers!

I mean if you say so, I can take a casual stroll into enemy territory(Near their Garrison/tower WP) with watch tower/marked and handle 1vXs with little effort and thought on my end. Killing things faster doesn't change the fact that condi mirage in WvW is abusive ultra safety net braindead ez god mode. The quality of mesmer player expected competence really did take a nose dive after the phantasm rework hasn't it?

[juno.1840]

The game is not balanced for teams smaller than five. Some professions can wash away conditions without much effort, and others cannot.

For larger teams (5+) your comp should include condi mitigation (cleanses and resistance). If it does not, then your composition is bad.

Honestly conditions are not a problem in WvW right now. If anything, they are under-performing. Months ago they were over-performing. Power is the meta at the moment.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@"babazhook.6805" said:

Okay, yes there are options available to combat conditions...except the way you have to build to specifically handle the amount of conditions coming in means you are essentially gimping yourself in other areas. You should try linking the builds you made, use gw2skills.net its pretty useful. However to me it doesn't sound like your build does anything more than just make you survive against conditions. Maybe the build works against the frequent derpadoo casual PvPer in WvW but outside of that...honestly kind of doubt it.

See you continue to insist this the case and it NOT. You simply ignore the fact that you can trait up a number of Utilities to do more work for you wherein while you add a condition cleanse , you are not sacrificing the ability to inflict damage and or use that same skill for things other then conditions.

Here a simple example in THIEF. Most people that play thief will take Signet of Agility. It a great multi-purpose skill that offers endurance, condition cleanse and precision+ endurance. If one compared it directly to Scorpion Wire SOA wins. The thing is SOA is at its ceiling and it pretty hard to make better whereas you can make Scorpion Wire do a lot more work for you.

So I speak to WvW here using a power build thief . Trait up SW with Trickster and I now get that interrupt/pull with some amount of damage along with condition cleanse. Due to the 16 second Cooldown trickster allows this gives an added 4 condition cleanses in 20 seconds. Not so bad now when compared to SOA and you even get more cleanses without having to surrender precision to do it. So what of that precision? Slap on a Severance sigil. Everytime you ge an interrupt you now have an added 250 precision with 250 ferocity. This is far more damage then what the SOA can put out. You still get those cleanses and your damage output is going up. That not all though. Use Sigil of celerity as your other Sigil and That SW of which you can use 4 in 20 seconds now interrupts, does damage, pulls , adds quickness , adds 250 ferocity adds 250 precision and cleanses , all on a single successful use. No damage out is "given up".

So where exactly have you kitten yourself? Now Imagine you an s/x build, most of those take Acro. Not only do you have a built in cleanse on the sword, but Acro is full of traits that remove conditions including those Cover conditions. If you are taking Acro anyways what are you giving up to take Acro? Assume in that build you are not facing a condition build , all of those skills are of use as is the condition removal because power builds will use Immobs, weakness slow cripple , blinds, fear and Vulnerability. Those Condition removals work against all of those skills. Power ranger loaded 20 Vuln onto you ? remove it. Conditions are not all about those that do damage.

To your heal now. On Thief one of the most popular is Withdraw and with Trickster traited that on an ICD of under 15 seconds. That pulls off chill. cripple , immob and torment. The traited trickster pulls off another condition and if you got EA and manage an evade ANOTHER condition peeled off. How exactly do you think this GIMPS your build? Even if facing pure power builds this one of the more popular heals.

Withdraw does not kitten your build when fighting other specs. SW does not kitten your build when fighting other Specs yet the two together can get you a whole lot of condition removal.

Now that all said there IS something given up and that choosing Trickster over Bountiful theft. I have found that BT used to be much more effective when there much less in the way of boons flying around. It simply too easy to reapply boons once they removed. Yes you can use BT to get at that Stab but again this not as effective in a battle then when we had the Old stability. I do NOT feel taking Trickster over BT Gimps your build and in reality taking Trickster over BT is the only change you are making in a typical power build loadout. So now you slap on a Purity Sigil onto your SB which is usually used as a utility weapon , again nothing really given up that "gimps your build" and 3 more cleanses on weapon swap to that SB

First off I never said it took away from damage, in fact it was meant to imply that it removes other utilities from your kit when you're building specifically to fight this one thing. Not every class deals with conditions or utility the same way, in fact yes from my perspective while playing Core Warrior I recognize that its weaker against condition pressure (slightly better now with how Sigil of Cleansing works in WvW with the update) and the reason for that is mainly due to what it has access to and what it needs to function best against classes. Its core tool is being able to land Bull's Charge for the CC and proc Peak Performance, this is where it can deal the most damage which is important when trying to lock down the more slippery classes. I can concede that I could use Spellbreaker for the Resistance uptime and Full Counter for more AoE and an easy trigger because of clone auto attacks, but at this point I kind of personally refuse to use Spellbreaker for small scale or solo roaming because I am not a fan of using Full Counter as a crutch.

You're honing in on this one part of what I said, I'm trying to point out that the issue maybe isn't even inherently with conditions, I even said that while overtuned I find the issue lies more with Mirage and how that works as a class paired with a condi build and that the way condi cleanses work could use tuning (condi cleanses only remove the most recently applied conditions). I was also trying to get an idea, actual visual idea not an explanation, of these builds you apparently made that were designed to combat these setups and even suggested that you use a site so you can link the build but you have yet to do that...you're just rambling on about comparisons between "this and that and this other thing". I'm a visual learner, show me the build and I'll have a better grasp of what you're talking about because you're not doing exceptionally well at explaining it especially not so when you link a thread with an OP that was deciding between two builds that look completely inane and they are complaining about taking too much damage despite the amount of toughness they have (spoiler alert, its because they neglect the best bits of ranger boon uptime and survivability).

Just link this build you were talking about for Warrior, thats all I'm asking.