Newbie Question: Pure Dire VS Celestial

[Redleaf.4759]

My question is: if I would like to play a condi Scourge, should I use Dire gear or Celestial gear?

If Celestial, why is it better than Dire?

Thanks.

[innocens.1582]

personaly, (and im not a pro) i would say viper.If you dont have access to that maybe rampager?
Dire is ok if you want some more self protection (the vitality and toughness).according to meta battle celestial is good for a hybrid scourge.

[Jimbru.6014]

Dire will make you a super-tanky condi dispenser in open world PVE. Other modes, not so good, for various reasons. Particularly the prevalence of condi cleanse, and the liability of Toughness being a mob magnet in some modes.

Celestial won't stack condi as well as Dire. But it will make you more versatile on offense, and possibly even harder to kill on defense, thanks to the healing power bonuses on your heals, life steals, and barriers. For that same reason, Celestial will also make you more broadly useful in small group content (open world, dungeons, fractals) where you can function as hybrid support. "Celestial Scourge" is also an effective WvW build.

Therefore, if I had to play a Scourge and choose between those two, I'd go Celestial.

EDIT: for the record, my own Scourge is hybrid support in full Marshal gear with Flock runes.

[Nimon.7840]

What content do you want to play?

Wvw?Pve? (Fractals, raids, or only normal open world?)PvP?

[Redleaf.4759]

Sorry I should make this question more specifically: only for WvW purpose.

Anyway thanks for the reply. I will try out Celestial then.

[Nimon.7840]

Most run build would be celestial. And mix in as much grieving as you can afford

[misterman.1530]

Trailblazers for Condi Scourge.

[rng.1024]

Just a few notions:

The thing about celestial stats are not all professions can utilize them equally. A necro for example, have very low healing coefficients so it gets minimal use out of any healing power - but since scourges have barrier, this is no longer the case. Same with reaper, it has amazing coefficients when it comes to power and skills that reinforce that, so they get less use out of condition damage. With such a high healthpool to start, they get less use of vitality than any other low-mid healthpool profession, however there are some traits that will make this investment worthwhile.

To sum it up:Celestial gear is fully dependent on your profession being able to synergize with it through purpose and accessable build options. Great on some, terrible on others.

Dire is alot more straightforward. It simply gives you more health (can be good when traited), more armor (less dmg per hit) and straight up condi damage. The added defence is there simply to make you able to kite effectively with conditions being your only notable source of dps. Works great as long as you have access to condition inflicting skills and traits that synergizes well towards that end.

As mentioned above, Viper stats can also be used. The advantage of this set is that it comes with expertise, allowing conditions to exceed Dire damage unless cleansed (which is great in a PvE setting), but offer no defensive benefit - but keep in mind necro already has max health pool, and supreme damage reduction whenever in shroud. This means it's preferred by those relatively experienced with the game and require a little more active defense in a trade for higher dps.

With this in mind, let's arrange these 3 statsets for a condition focused necro and it's elites, to see which give you most value for your choice:

Core:

• Dire (lacks mobility/defense, good access to conditions)
• Viper (while this will make you squishy, you have better shroud uptime than the elites to make up for it and extra damage to boot)

Reaper:

• Viper (since Reaper doesn't have as good condition application as core, you need duration to bridge the dps gap. Reaper also offer you alot more control effects, which does more for your survival than any more vit/toughness could)

Scourge:

• Celestial (Scales great with every stat here, offering a little bit of everything)
• Viper (Supreme for damage since you have great condi access and reapplication means)

Now to explain the reasons some statsets weren't included:

• Celestial wasn't included in core because core necro has terrible scaling with healing power, it offers less defence than dire and even cuts your dps way low by also giving power damage (which alot of core skills don't utilize).
• Celestial wasn't included for Reaper because reaper already have low condition accessibility so less damage is bad, don't scale well with healingpower and the sustain it offers can more easily be achieved by active play
• Dire wasn't included for reaper simply because reaper has low condi accessibility. Against anything that cleanses this set will do little damage. While it does offer some defense, this is too easily negated if you can't pressure your opponents enough
• Dire wasn't included for Scourge as scourge already have access to barriers that give tons of sustain. It's ability to reapply conditions also mean you get more value from expertise than more raw condi damage.

Hope this helps you a bit :)

[Nimon.7840]

You definetly don't won't to run condition duration in zergs and guildgroups.

For roaming it's good. In groups it's a wasted stat.

[XECOR.2814]

I actually support full dire for new players. Cheap and easy to get stats. More than enough hp and toughness for beginners to learn to react to cheese wvw builds. Also the damage is not bad.

Wvw build(Not Zerg build)

Weapons:

1. Staff
2. Sceptre, Torch/Dagger

Use these traits:Curses 223,Soul reaping 321,Scourge 333.

Utility:Sand flare/consume conditions,Trail of anguish,Sand swell,Corrupt boons/spectral armor, andGhastly breach.

Runes:Superior runes of sunless.

[santso.9201]

Berserker If you actually want to do dmg in zerg fights(and Be top dmg), Been running with arc and berserker scourges usually do double The dmg compared to cele build and condi scourges do Even less than cele thanks to dhuumfire Nerf(next to no dmg) on small scale tho trailblazer is your best friend.

[Nimon.7840]

@santso.9201 said:Berserker If you actually want to do dmg in zerg fights(and Be top dmg), Been running with arc and berserker scourges usually do double The dmg compared to cele build and condi scourges do Even less than cele thanks to dhuumfire Nerf(next to no dmg) on small scale tho trailblazer is your best friend.

That's definetly not scourges role in a zerg.Scourge is there for boon corruptsAlso berserkers is very poor choice.You will die in an instant if you are doing that.Good luck surviving thief vaults or rev hammers.

[santso.9201]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@santso.9201 said:Berserker If you actually want to do dmg in zerg fights(and Be top dmg), Been running with arc and berserker scourges usually do double The dmg compared to cele build and condi scourges do Even less than cele thanks to dhuumfire Nerf(next to no dmg) on small scale tho trailblazer is your best friend.

That's definetly not scourges role in a zerg.Scourge is there for boon corruptsAlso berserkers is very poor choice.You will die in an instant if you are doing that.Good luck surviving thief vaults or rev hammers.

You can still do corrupts and dmg from those has always Been next to nothing against decent groups(ie those who cleanse and guards know that instead of spamming F3 auto they use resistance Fields instead) condi scourge was carried by dhuumfire procks anyway. Yeah it takes Time to learn how to move+ good fb to support to go full zerker, like maybe add few cavalier pieces to get like 2,3k armour and few Marauder pieces to get 24k HP with soulreaping. In bvb Power is always far superior compared to cele/condi.Like dire is firebrand lvl of dmg against decent groups.

For some reason ppl think you have to play spite on powerbuild, Even If might is only reason you take it, not dmg modifiers, when you have fb+revenant combo there is enough might for scourge to take curses instead which provides free critrate, corrupts on F2 and either weakness on crit or If you go meme zerker scepter extra aoe corrupts with nice Power dmg (scepter 3 with some might crits like 7-8k) its just ppl not testing/understanding how The game Works and what is important when making The build.

[Nimon.7840]

@santso.9201 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@santso.9201 said:Berserker If you actually want to do dmg in zerg fights(and Be top dmg), Been running with arc and berserker scourges usually do double The dmg compared to cele build and condi scourges do Even less than cele thanks to dhuumfire Nerf(next to no dmg) on small scale tho trailblazer is your best friend.

That's definetly not scourges role in a zerg.Scourge is there for boon corruptsAlso berserkers is very poor choice.You will die in an instant if you are doing that.Good luck surviving thief vaults or rev hammers.

You can still do corrupts and dmg from those has always Been next to nothing against decent groups(ie those who cleanse and guards know that instead of spamming F3 auto they use resistance Fields instead) condi scourge was carried by dhuumfire procks anyway. Yeah it takes Time to learn how to move+ good fb to support to go full zerker, like maybe add few cavalier pieces to get like 2,3k armour and few Marauder pieces to get 24k HP with soulreaping. In bvb Power is always far superior compared to cele/condi.Like dire is firebrand lvl of dmg against decent groups.

For some reason ppl think you have to play spite on powerbuild, Even If might is only reason you take it, not dmg modifiers, when you have fb+revenant combo there is enough might for scourge to take curses instead which provides free critrate, corrupts on F2 and either weakness on crit or If you go meme zerker scepter extra aoe corrupts with nice Power dmg (scepter 3 with some might crits like 7-8k) its just ppl not testing/understanding how The game Works and what is important when making The build.

And that's the issue. You seem not to understand, what corrupts are for, what scourges job is.

Scourge a job is to:Put up barrierTo corrupt boons, so that enemy doesn't do damage, and you damage dealers do more damage while applying conditions that do a lot of damage.Everytime I look in my logs, about 30% of my damage comes from torment.

My guild and I crushed a group that played exactly that: power scourge.

Also there's still the warrior. A warrior places his bubble, scourges corrupt the boons of enemies inside.Revs and eles kill them.

That's how meta works right now.Ask any decent guild.

[santso.9201]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@santso.9201 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@santso.9201 said:Berserker If you actually want to do dmg in zerg fights(and Be top dmg), Been running with arc and berserker scourges usually do double The dmg compared to cele build and condi scourges do Even less than cele thanks to dhuumfire Nerf(next to no dmg) on small scale tho trailblazer is your best friend.

That's definetly not scourges role in a zerg.Scourge is there for boon corruptsAlso berserkers is very poor choice.You will die in an instant if you are doing that.Good luck surviving thief vaults or rev hammers.

You can still do corrupts and dmg from those has always Been next to nothing against decent groups(ie those who cleanse and guards know that instead of spamming F3 auto they use resistance Fields instead) condi scourge was carried by dhuumfire procks anyway. Yeah it takes Time to learn how to move+ good fb to support to go full zerker, like maybe add few cavalier pieces to get like 2,3k armour and few Marauder pieces to get 24k HP with soulreaping. In bvb Power is always far superior compared to cele/condi.Like dire is firebrand lvl of dmg against decent groups.

For some reason ppl think you have to play spite on powerbuild, Even If might is only reason you take it, not dmg modifiers, when you have fb+revenant combo there is enough might for scourge to take curses instead which provides free critrate, corrupts on F2 and either weakness on crit or If you go meme zerker scepter extra aoe corrupts with nice Power dmg (scepter 3 with some might crits like 7-8k) its just ppl not testing/understanding how The game Works and what is important when making The build.

And that's the issue. You seem not to understand, what corrupts are for, what scourges job is.

Scourge a job is to:Put up barrierTo corrupt boons, so that enemy doesn't do damage, and you damage dealers do more damage while applying conditions that do a lot of damage.Everytime I look in my logs, about 30% of my damage comes from torment.

My guild and I crushed a group that played exactly that: power scourge.

Also there's still the warrior. A warrior places his bubble, scourges corrupt the boons of enemies inside.Revs and eles kill them.

That's how meta works right now.Ask any decent guild.

And scourge can do all those things while using Power Gear on top of that also doing dps. Like that torment dmg doesnt really matter, it gets cleansed. There is good reason why good power scourge does double The dmg compared to cele build.

[Nimon.7840]

@santso.9201 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@santso.9201 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@santso.9201 said:Berserker If you actually want to do dmg in zerg fights(and Be top dmg), Been running with arc and berserker scourges usually do double The dmg compared to cele build and condi scourges do Even less than cele thanks to dhuumfire Nerf(next to no dmg) on small scale tho trailblazer is your best friend.

That's definetly not scourges role in a zerg.Scourge is there for boon corruptsAlso berserkers is very poor choice.You will die in an instant if you are doing that.Good luck surviving thief vaults or rev hammers.

You can still do corrupts and dmg from those has always Been next to nothing against decent groups(ie those who cleanse and guards know that instead of spamming F3 auto they use resistance Fields instead) condi scourge was carried by dhuumfire procks anyway. Yeah it takes Time to learn how to move+ good fb to support to go full zerker, like maybe add few cavalier pieces to get like 2,3k armour and few Marauder pieces to get 24k HP with soulreaping. In bvb Power is always far superior compared to cele/condi.Like dire is firebrand lvl of dmg against decent groups.

For some reason ppl think you have to play spite on powerbuild, Even If might is only reason you take it, not dmg modifiers, when you have fb+revenant combo there is enough might for scourge to take curses instead which provides free critrate, corrupts on F2 and either weakness on crit or If you go meme zerker scepter extra aoe corrupts with nice Power dmg (scepter 3 with some might crits like 7-8k) its just ppl not testing/understanding how The game Works and what is important when making The build.

And that's the issue. You seem not to understand, what corrupts are for, what scourges job is.

Scourge a job is to:Put up barrierTo corrupt boons, so that enemy doesn't do damage, and you damage dealers do more damage while applying conditions that do a lot of damage.Everytime I look in my logs, about 30% of my damage comes from torment.

My guild and I crushed a group that played exactly that: power scourge.

Also there's still the warrior. A warrior places his bubble, scourges corrupt the boons of enemies inside.Revs and eles kill them.

That's how meta works right now.Ask any decent guild.

And scourge can do all those things while using Power Gear on top of that also doing dps. Like that torment dmg doesnt really matter, it gets cleansed. There is good reason why good power scourge does double The dmg compared to cele build.

Like I said. In a fight that where i do 200k damage (sure arc isn't that precise in wvw) I do 30% of the damage from torment alone. Then bleed.

With power you only have good spikes but almost no sustained damage.

Yesterday I just compared it to someone running power scourge: same damage as me, less strips, less sustained damage.

It doesn't matter if conditions get cleansed.There will be at least one tick of the conditions doing damage before they get cleansed most of the times

[Hesacon.8735]

Celestial is meta for scourge in zergs, power or condi. You can even double down with divinity runes now that they provide an extra 10% hp.

It's sort of meh for roaming, and dire would probably beat it for roaming.