Some engineer traits are clearly not in line with others in PvP

[witcher.3197]

Holosmith is one of the most overperforming classes today, and in no small part thanks to a few traits that are better than other similar traits:

Invigorating Speed

When you gain swiftness, you also gain vigor.

This allows Holo to effortlessly have permanent Vigor uptime. We don't have to go far for a fair comparison, there's another similar trait in this tier, Protection Injection. That one gives protection, started off with the same 5 second ICD, but is now 20s in PvP. Invigorating Speed should be at least 20 as well (as Holo runs Tools they have other sources of vigor anyways so this would be a reasonable nerf, maybe not even harsh enough).

Self-Regulating Defenses

Drink an Elixir S when you are struck while below the health threshold.

This is called godmode. CC, breakstun, damage and condition damage immunity on a passive proc at 25% HP. 72 second CD when traited, 90 otherwise, lasts 3 seconds (4 seconds traited).

Let's compare it with the Endure Pain proc of warriors: 90 second CD in PvP, procs at 50%, still affected by CC and conditions, lasts 2 seconds.

Thief Instant Reflexes: 90 second CD in PvP, procs at 50%, evades attacks (still takes condi dmg), lasts 2 seconds.

There are other comparisons to illustrate the same point but to keep it short: the engineer proc lasts TWICE AS LONG as other procs, on a potentially shorter CD (it's always traited), and grants more immunities than any other proc in the game. Then of course other procs were intentionally raised to go off at 50% hp because of PvP, yet engi is still at 25%.

Suggestion: rework the trait proc to be "Lesser Elixir S" with 1.5 second base duration, procs at 50%, and maybe even increase the CD to 105 seconds.

Takedown Round

Striking a foe above the health threshold places a delayed explosive charge on them. 10s CD

This is not that big of an offender, although it's a free ~3k damage passive proc. Still, we don't need to go far for a comparison:

Damage: 532 (2.0)? - according to the wiki this is the damage of the proc

Let's take a look at another engineer trait, Aim Assisted Rocket which reads: Fire a seeking rocket at your foe. so nearly the same trait, and they both have the same CD.

Damage: 133 (0.5)? - that's the post-nerf PvP damage, which you can see is considerably lower than Takedown's. Even before the nerf it did less than half the damage of Takedown, yet Anet felt the need to nerf the trait specifically in PvP. Nerfing Takedown damage by half is only logical.

Optimized Activation

Using tool belt skills grants vigor. 2s vigor

Let's take a look at a similar Mirage trait, Nomad's Endurance: Shatter skills give vigor, and vigor grants condition damage. - this used to be 3s vigor, and is now 1.5 in PvP.

Mesmer already needed at least 2 other sources of vigor for permanent upkeep, 2 of which were nerfed including this one. There's a trait tied into Nomad's Endurance which gives mesmer increased stats while under the effect of vigor, and there's a similar trait on Tools which gives engi bonus damage while under the effects of vigor. One could argue that Mirage is more OP with vigor because of dodging is at the core of Mirage design, but to a lesser extent that's also true for Holosmith as dodging is literally their only source of heat management which is their primary resource.

THEN there's the fact that it's much harder to maintain vigor with shatters compared to toolbelt skills because mirage has 4 shatters while holo has 5 toolbelt skills (technically more like 6), and at least 2 of those are on a ~5 second CD whereas the shortest cooldown shatter is almost double of that. Mirage could barely have a 20% upkeep on vigor using shatters, whereas holo could comfortably get approximately. 60-80%

I'd either suggest an ICD of 5 seconds on this trait, or to cut Vigor duration to 1.5 seconds at least.

If I missed any feel free to comment.

[Falan.1839]

And which traits are they not in line with? With the one on Coreguard that gives you 50% Critchance + free Might Stacks on Reta, making a whole amulet stat obsolete? With the one that gives you 40% Crit Chance on Fury, which you have permanent access too, like Rev? With the one that dishes out 6s weakness and 4sec prot on every 15s on hit like on Ranger (Engi in comparison gets 4s Prot on CC every 20 seconds)? With the one that gives permaquickness + 300 ferocity while in Reapershroud? Is it those not powercreeped at all traits that 2 traits from different traitlines combined giving you perma vigor and 10% extra dmg on it aren't in line with?

Also comparing an immunity that shuts you down to one where you can still dish out damage at will is just out of this world stupid.

Also, if holo is so broken OP like this forum keeps claiming, why was there not a single holo in either the NA or the EU monthly final, despite at least one player in the EU final maining it? That makes the four best teams on the two continents, 20 players, without a single holo. Maybe it's not that op and just valuable for Ranked because it's stuck in an awkward spot between the three classical roles (Roamer, Duelist, Teamfighter) which makes it useful when you have completely random comps and generally chaotic rotations on the map? Considered that maybe?

[Chaith.8256]

@Falan.1839 said:And which traits are they not in line with? With the one on Coreguard that gives you 50% Critchance + free Might Stacks on Reta, making a whole amulet stat obsolete? With the one that gives you 40% Crit Chance on Fury, which you have permanent access too, like Rev? With the one that dishes out 6s weakness and 4sec prot on every 15s on hit like on Ranger (Engi in comparison gets 4s Prot on CC every 20 seconds)? With the one that gives permaquickness + 300 ferocity while in Reapershroud? Is it those not powercreeped at all traits that 2 traits from different traitlines combined giving you perma vigor and 10% extra dmg on it aren't in line with?

Yep. If you compare traits between classes you can justify any nerfs/buffs to any spec you want.. Comparing individual traits is a trash tier argument that many are guilty of

[bigo.9037]

I would say the real issue is the ridiculous amounts of boons from elixirs. The passive procs.. even though they are annoying, are part of holos and engis sustain chain.

But getting 10 sec stab and quickness as well as other things on a 32 s cooldown is insane. Ranger QZ gives less quickness but superspeed.. and no stab. We need separate skill for that. Id trade the superspeed for stab anyday. Not to mention holo can already get stab with photon skill #3. You pair this extra stab from elixirs on top of heavy aoe dmg, aoe CC , high quickness uptime it's no wonder holo is so strong.

[Peutrifectus.4830]

You list core traits and blame holo. Yes. Let's nerf core engi some more fml

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@bigo.9037 said:I would say the real issue is the ridiculous amounts of boons from elixirs. The passive procs.. even though they are annoying, are part of holos and engis sustain chain.

But getting 10 sec stab and quickness as well as other things on a 32 s cooldown is insane. Ranger QZ gives less quickness but superspeed.. and no stab. We need separate skill for that. Id trade the superspeed for stab anyday. Not to mention holo can already get stab with photon skill #3. You pair this extra stab from elixirs on top of heavy aoe dmg, aoe CC , high quickness uptime it's no wonder holo is so strong.

I doubt the builds change much between wvw and spvp. Me and a guildy downed holo who was afk, took a few seconds because of passive invul, by the time he was downed he had regen/protection/vigor/19 stacks of might????/swiftness - all just being afk and taking hits. Anyway.

People can go on for days and compare traits from other classes to another.

[witcher.3197]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Falan.1839 said:And which traits are they not in line with? With the one on Coreguard that gives you 50% Critchance + free Might Stacks on Reta, making a whole amulet stat obsolete? With the one that gives you 40% Crit Chance on Fury, which you have permanent access too, like Rev? With the one that dishes out 6s weakness and 4sec prot on every 15s on hit like on Ranger (Engi in comparison gets 4s Prot on CC every 20 seconds)? With the one that gives permaquickness + 300 ferocity while in Reapershroud? Is it those not powercreeped at all traits that 2 traits from different traitlines combined giving you perma vigor and 10% extra dmg on it aren't in line with?

Yep. If you compare traits between classes you can justify any nerfs/buffs to any spec you want.. Comparing individual traits is a trash tier argument that many are guilty of

Except there are cases where Anet set a clear precedent for how thing are supposed to work across the board, for example when it comes to defensive procs with either stun break, immunity, or both:

Defy Pain (warrior) - procs at 50% hp

Instant Reflexes (thief) - procs at 50% hp

Stoneform (ranger) - procs at 50% hp

Final Shielding (elementalist) - procs at 50% hp

Earth's Embrace (elementalist) - procs at 50% hp

Last Gasp (necromancer) - procs at 50% hp

Most of these procs used to activate at 25%, but were raised to 50% specifically for pvp. Only Elixir S still procs at 25%. The threshold was raised for a reason and I don't see why engineer should be exempt from this.

[losingcontrol.1084]

About Elixir S not affecting condis is true only for a part.Chill cripple still works while you are into shrink mode, and you still will move slower than a turtle, so it's not hard to get chased and killed immediately after you leave shrink mode, everybody immediately dodge out of it and then you can be cc and killed even before have the time to heal.

What people do instead is completely ignore the engineer and let him run away in shrink mode and this way he can reset back to 100% hp no problem.

[Exalted Quality.8534]

I read deeply into the true esscence of the original post and have determined, unoquivically, that this is an L2P issue. There are some evil, dangerous holos out there. Stay safe, gamer.

[coro.3176]

Please don't balance elite specs by nerfing core specs. Please...

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I always hate it when ppl propose nerfs to core stuff instead of the ACTUAL SPEC that's causing problems.

[witcher.3197]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I always hate it when ppl propose nerfs to core stuff instead of the ACTUAL SPEC that's causing problems.

At the very least Elixir S should be brought in line. That trait is overperforming on every build because every engi build ever picks Alchemy.

[Solo.6873]

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:You list core traits and blame holo. Yes. Let's nerf core engi some more fml

That's what people did for mesmer. Was very effective, been getting nerfs for almost a year now.

[tinyreborn.1938]

@coro.3176 said:Please don't balance elite specs by nerfing core specs. Please...@Solori.6025 said:

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:You list core traits and blame holo. Yes. Let's nerf core engi some more fml

That's what people did for mesmer. Was very effective, been getting nerfs for almost a year now.Tell that to anet to revert million nerfs done to core mesmer xd

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@witcher.3197 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I always hate it when ppl propose nerfs to core stuff instead of the ACTUAL SPEC that's causing problems.

At the very least Elixir S should be brought in line. That trait is overperforming on every build because every engi build ever picks Alchemy.

I don't much care for auto procs. I think the trait is good but not op; its got a long cd and youre locked out of using skills unlike other professions auto procs. only nerf I agree to is the invigorating speed one.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Falan.1839 said:And which traits are they not in line with? With the one on Coreguard that gives you 50% Critchance + free Might Stacks on Reta, making a whole amulet stat obsolete? With the one that gives you 40% Crit Chance on Fury, which you have permanent access too, like Rev? With the one that dishes out 6s weakness and 4sec prot on every 15s on hit like on Ranger (Engi in comparison gets 4s Prot on CC every 20 seconds)? With the one that gives permaquickness + 300 ferocity while in Reapershroud? Is it those not powercreeped at all traits that 2 traits from different traitlines combined giving you perma vigor and 10% extra dmg on it aren't in line with?

Also comparing an immunity that shuts you down to one where you can still dish out damage at will is just out of this world stupid.

Also, if holo is so broken OP like this forum keeps claiming, why was there not a single holo in either the NA or the EU monthly final, despite at least one player in the EU final maining it? That makes the four best teams on the two continents, 20 players, without a single holo. Maybe it's not that op and just valuable for Ranked because it's stuck in an awkward spot between the three classical roles (Roamer, Duelist, Teamfighter) which makes it useful when you have completely random comps and generally chaotic rotations on the map? Considered that maybe?

Maybe it doesnt fare so well against premade teams... Maybe a lot of yolo builds wont work against organised teams actually..

Im assuming OP refers to yolo queue holos where yolo builds reign dominant.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@witcher.3197 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Falan.1839 said:And which traits are they not in line with? With the one on Coreguard that gives you 50% Critchance + free Might Stacks on Reta, making a whole amulet stat obsolete? With the one that gives you 40% Crit Chance on Fury, which you have permanent access too, like Rev? With the one that dishes out 6s weakness and 4sec prot on every 15s on hit like on Ranger (Engi in comparison gets 4s Prot on CC every 20 seconds)? With the one that gives permaquickness + 300 ferocity while in Reapershroud? Is it those not powercreeped at all traits that 2 traits from different traitlines combined giving you perma vigor and 10% extra dmg on it aren't in line with?

Yep. If you compare traits between classes you can justify any nerfs/buffs to any spec you want.. Comparing individual traits is a trash tier argument that many are guilty of

Except there are cases where Anet set a clear precedent for how thing are supposed to work across the board, for example when it comes to defensive procs with either stun break, immunity, or both:

Defy Pain (warrior) - procs at 50% hp

Instant Reflexes (thief) - procs at 50% hp

Stoneform (ranger) - procs at 50% hp

Final Shielding (elementalist) - procs at 50% hp

Earth's Embrace (elementalist) - procs at 50% hp

Last Gasp (necromancer) - procs at 50% hp

Most of these procs used to activate at 25%, but were raised to 50% specifically for pvp. Only Elixir S still procs at 25%. The threshold was raised for a reason and I don't see why engineer should be exempt from this.

Leaving aside that I'm not sure why you're so mad that it activates at 25% specifically (most people who hate these skills/traits hate that they exist at all), all those abilities let you keep using your abilities normally while they're active, which Elixir S doesn't. I'm pretty sure that's the difference there.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:You list core traits and blame holo.Get used to it. People are in fact that clueless, and are why I'm waiting for Engi to be the next Ele.

[Tiah.3091]

@"Falan.1839" said:Also, if holo is so broken OP like this forum keeps claiming, why was there not a single holo in either the NA or the EU monthly final, despite at least one player in the EU final maining it? That makes the four best teams on the two continents, 20 players, without a single holo. Maybe it's not that op and just valuable for Ranked because it's stuck in an awkward spot between the three classical roles (Roamer, Duelist, Teamfighter) which makes it useful when you have completely random comps and generally chaotic rotations on the map? Considered that maybe?

So, judging by your logic, "if the class is not present in monthly final, then it's not OP"? Right?

Now, FIRST OF ALL, do you realize, that balance in coordinated 5v5 is much different from soloq? What's OP in team comp is not necessary good in soloq and vice versa.Good example: when mesmer was an ultimate trash some time ago, and competitive teams only took it because of the portal - because portal itself is an OP ability for the coordinated team.

Now, SECOND, what the fuck of an argument is that? Like.. soloq is not important or what? Monthly tournament is how much people? 150? And normal ranked spvp is 5000 people. What's more important, 150 people or 5000?

[apharma.3741]

@coro.3176 said:Please don't balance elite specs by nerfing core specs. Please...

Sadly that is the trend with ANet. When fresh air weaver was spiking a bit too much they nerfed plasma beam but also electric discharge. Mesmer is pretty much the poster boy for nerfs to core traits and skills to balance out the elites.

[Chaith.8256]

@apharma.3741 said:Mesmer is pretty much the poster boy for nerfs to core traits and skills to balance out the elites.

This is because Chrono and Mirage were SO much on another realm of existence compared to core.

Players/ArenaNet realized Core Mesmer was so screwed due to Mesmer Elite spec's special evolutions, game changers, general golden boy design philosophy. Easier to give up on making Core Mesmer usable by then. At that point, might as well nerf core as the path of least resistance.

[apharma.3741]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Mesmer is pretty much the poster boy for nerfs to core traits and skills to balance out the elites.

This is because Chrono and Mirage were SO much on another realm of existence compared to core.

Players/ArenaNet realized Core Mesmer was so screwed due to Mesmer Elite spec's special evolutions, game changers, general golden boy design philosophy. Easier to give up on making Core Mesmer usable by then. At that point, might as well nerf core as the path of least resistance.

The elite specs are overtuned in 1-2 very specific ways (continuum split on chrono, ambush skills mirage) the rest of the elite spec isn't that great, certainly not after ANet changed tac with chrono and obliterated the shield and then whatever they decide to do to mirage after they've nerfed every core skill and trait into oblivion.

It doesn't mean it's the right way to go about balancing as you're deferring the problems for later when you decide to buff something to make alternate playstyles work but because you didn't properly adjust continuum splits ability to double up the downside of long cool down or long cast is negated entirely.

[Chaith.8256]

@apharma.3741 said:It doesn't mean it's the right way to go about balancing as you're deferring the problems for later when you decide to buff something to make alternate playstyles work but because you didn't properly adjust continuum splits ability to double up the downside of long cool down or long cast is negated entirely.

Yes I'm also wanting Core Mesmer with all other core specs to be differentiated and bring something to the table.