Inventories still full of runes/sigils, accessibility of different builds and rift between players

[zencow.3651]

Even with legendary sigil swap update and the rune/sigil rework, for example, just carrying around the following set for maximal power DPS performance in fractals/dungeons etc takes a significant amount if inventory slot, then you also have condi/support and roaming builds for WvW that benefits from runes and sigils. A non-comprehensive list of common gear for PvE that can help reach DPS benchmarks and others that are advised or REQUESTED FOR by between different WvW guilds as 'Guild Builds' include:

PVE:Main Damage Sigils:Superior Sigil of the Night, Impact, Force, Air

Niche Slaying Sigils (most relevant to least):Superior Sigil of Serpent Slaying (CM 99), Mad Scientists (CM 100)

Superior Sigil of Demon Slaying (Volcanic), Sorrow (Underground), Elemental Slaying (Underground), Grawl Slaying (Volcanic), Icebrood Slaying (Snowblind)... the other 7 dungeon slaying sigils

WVW:Support/Roaming:Superior Sigil of Concentration, Water, TransferrenceSuperior Rune of Durability, Leadership, Monk, Antitoxin

Roaming:Superior Sigil of Energy, Cleansing, Malice, Doom, Nullification, Absorption, SeveranceSuperior Rune of the Adventurer, Exuberance

Zerg DPS:Superior Sigil of Frenzy, Bloodlust, CorruptionSuperior Rune of Strength,Wurm, Renegade, Berserker

Your favorite personal/profession niches:

, for me as an Ele main it's Superior Rune of Evasion, BalthazarIsn't this a major hurdle for players who want to play in groups that demand certain builds?Don't players underperform in PuGs because it's inconvenient to have different builds between open-world and fractals/raids?Don't WvW servers die out because players insist on using their own because it's more convenient so the more 'hard-core' fight guilds leave?Is it realistic to clog up your inventories with so many runes and sigils?I know some hardcore people who have 5-20 eles with different sets but is that really the way to go?If you already have legendary weapons/armor why aren't you allowed to have the extra convenience of changing builds however you want?Through this thread's discussion, we can identify here that: 1) The MAJORITY of people DON'T like to carry/clog up their storage with extra weapons/armor, sigils and runes. Yet 2) A LOT of people want build templates to make things more convenient but that would only be useful if they had access to/were carrying enough different builds on them in the first place for the build templates pull out to be relevant. So we have quite a convoluted situation going on here as 1) is such a major inconvenience we have a rift between the more chill players who don't bother with carrying the extra stuff and the population of fanatics like myself who do. If that's the case then if we were to only consider the majority of people who DON'T care, 2) would NEVER be satisfied because by those standards it's not relevant enough to the majority who can't use it anyway.As build templates are perhaps very technically demanding and unlikely to be implemented, perhaps we can start SOMEWHERE?Original suggestion [can you even name all the sigils in my inventory by picture alone without having to scroll over each one?] (doesn't solve accessibility issues of casual players getting the gear in the first place yet but I haven't come up with something to solve that but it at least maybe it can incentivize the rich but only-does-open-world SW/Istan farmers and long-term solo WvWers into trying different things?):We need to make something like at least something like this happen where sigils/runes can be consumed (creating an additional sink for runes/sigils) to add to a pool of selectable sigils/runes on legendaries so WvW/PvP legendary armor can be become relevant and something to look forward to in the end-game.EDIT: or introduce legendary sigils/runes like the following suggestion:> @Palador.2170 said:> Maybe we could get legendary upgrades, instead? We can craft upgrades now, that would be the first step in making progress on a legendary version that can be set to different values. It would bypass the problem of attaching extra data to the main gear, so I wonder if it's possible?

[Palador.2170]

You already have an advantage over ascended gear, but still you want more?

Here's an idea: Limit yourself to the one or two extras that you're most likely to need, and then carry around some portable bank summons to access the rest when you need them. It's not like you're going to suddenly find yourself in the middle of a raid without no prep time, right? You don't need all of them all the time. If something unexpected DOES happen, that's when you call up the banker golem and grab what you need.

[zencow.3651]

@Palador.2170 said:You already have an advantage over ascended gear, but still you want more?Ascended gear is easy to get, carrying 10 ascended daggers with different sigils was what I previously did anyway. Now instead of those actual daggers, they still take up as much room as sigils so the advantage is literally zero once you start swimming in ascended chests.

@Palador.2170 said:Here's an idea: Limit yourself to the one or two extras that you're most likely to need, and then carry around some portable bank summons to access the rest when you need them. It's not like you're going to suddenly find yourself in the middle of a raid without no prep time, right? You don't need all of them all the time. If something unexpected DOES happen, that's when you call up the banker golem and grab what you need.Still doesn't solve the issue of said runes/sigils taking up space, of which my bank is filled with even more. Before, I'd trash the ones that are cheaper but now they all hold an inflated cost to replace. Months down the line that would also be the case when the prices fall down again but inventories will still be plagued by them. This suggestion helps create a sink for each and every sigil and rune that would keep them valuable.

[Palador.2170]

First, apologies if my first post came across as snarky. It wasn't intended as such.

Anyway, I don't think you'll be able to get what you're asking for. It would run the risk of pushing legendary gear from "good to have" and into the "must have QoL upgrade" for too many people. Plus, it would require a LOT of extra data to be attached to each legendary item to recall what upgrades have been fed into it that it can use. I'm not sure the game can even handle doing that.

Though.... hummm... that does get me thinking. Maybe we could get legendary upgrades, instead? We can craft upgrades now, that would be the first step in making progress on a legendary version that can be set to different values. It would bypass the problem of attaching extra data to the main gear, so I wonder if it's possible?

[Guest]

I feel very confident in saying that very, very few players are like you and carry 12 creature-specific sigils for the tiny DPS upgrade they offer when facing content that even half-kittened builds in a pug group can faceroll now (i.e. dungeons). I get that you're a fanatical min-maxer, and that's fine, but cluttered inventory is the price you pay for that vice.

[zencow.3651]

@"Palador.2170" said:First, apologies if my first post came across as snarky. It wasn't intended as such.

Anyway, I don't think you'll be able to get what you're asking for. It would run the risk of pushing legendary gear from "good to have" and into the "must have QoL upgrade" for too many people. Plus, it would require a LOT of extra data to be attached to each legendary item to recall what upgrades have been fed into it that it can use. I'm not sure the game can even handle doing that.

Though.... hummm... that does get me thinking. Maybe we could get legendary upgrades, instead? We can craft upgrades now, that would be the first step in making progress on a legendary version that can be set to different values. It would bypass the problem of attaching extra data to the main gear, so I wonder if it's possible?

It wouldn't be a lot of extra data. For example, Instead of remembering what each sigil as singular entity in your weapons as it is currently, the game would just need to remember it as whatever list/vector/hash table/data structure the game uses then effecting that upgrade's enhancement. The only additional barriers then would be the changes in User Interface to support 1) the absorbing of sigils/runes, 2) the drop-down menu. Manpowerwise it is alot more reasonable than implement entirely new systems of upgrades.

[Blocki.4931]

Seems redundant since barely anybody goes to the length of having several rune/sigil setups.

[zencow.3651]

@"Kunzaito.8169" said:I feel very confident in saying that very, very few players are like you and carry 12 creature-specific sigils for the tiny DPS upgrade they offer when facing content that even half-kittened builds in a pug group can faceroll now (i.e. dungeons). I get that you're a fanatical min-maxer, and that's fine, but cluttered inventory is the price you pay for that vice.

@"Blocki.4931" said:Seems redundant since barely anybody goes to the length of having several rune/sigil setups.

10%-12% more damage than strictly Force/Air sigil isn't tiny! Even if you're at the average 10k DPS, that jumps to 11k-12k. 3 people netting 1.5k more DPS each is almost like having a "free" underperforming 4k DPS player tagging along!

But see that's part of the issue isn't it? Most people aren't using them because they are inconvenient/inaccessible by design while those who have more inventory slots will have room to support it. Something needs to change so more people can use them!

[Guest]

No, most people aren't using it because those enemies melt anyway at even suboptimal builds and gear. Something that dies in 2 seconds dying in 1.9 seconds is immaterial to pretty much everyone but minmaxers.

A recent personal example - I needed some CM tokens recently and pugged a path. Group was two level 40-ish players and a couple other PoF 80s. I ran with my zerk herald in exo gear with no food or oils because why? We tore through everything in the path in terms of fighting. The only thing that held us up was people being unfamiliar with the rocket tunnel part, which would not have been improved by different sigils.

Look, I get it, it makes some people happy to play with the theoretically optimal gear. But I guarantee you will not notice the difference in any given pug run because of the many, many variables outside of your control that would contribute to DPS loss. And if you're running a fully comped guild run through dungeons you should be melting everything regardless. Your argument only holds water as a math exercise.

[zencow.3651]

@"Kunzaito.8169" said:No, most people aren't using it because those enemies melt anyway at even suboptimal builds and gear. Something that dies in 2 seconds dying in 1.9 seconds is immaterial to pretty much everyone but minmaxers.

A recent personal example - I needed some CM tokens recently and pugged a path. Group was two level 40-ish players and a couple other PoF 80s. I ran with my zerk herald in exo gear with no food or oils because why? We tore through everything in the path in terms of fighting. The only thing that held us up was people being unfamiliar with the rocket tunnel part, which would not have been improved by different sigils.

Look, I get it, it makes some people happy to play with the theoretically optimal gear. But I guarantee you will not notice the difference in any given pug run because of the many, many variables outside of your control that would contribute to DPS loss. And if you're running a fully comped guild run through dungeons you should be melting everything regardless. Your argument only holds water as a math exercise.

Dungeons were designed around release with exotic gear and at a time before power-creep made them redundant. However, sigils like Sigil of Ghost Slaying and Sigil of Justice are still relevant for raid content like Gorseval and Bandit Trio. These are already easy for fully comped teams but both of these would make them much more easy to clear in PuG raids if the sigils were more accessible.

[Cyndercat.7615]

Honestly, even if I had the option of swapping sigils without the inventory clutter, I wouldn't bother. The effort is too much to make it worth swapping all the time for the increase.

[zencow.3651]

@Danikat.8537 said:Insulting people who do not conform to your expectations is not a great way to get people to support your idea.

True, but I hope they come to understand how self-limiting their expectations are and the avenues of self-improvement that they could explore.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@zencow.3651 said:However, sigils like Sigil of Ghost Slaying and Sigil of >Justice are still relevant for raid content like Gorseval and Bandit Trio. These are already easy for fully comped teams >but both of these would make them much more easy >to clear in PuG raids if the sigils were more accessible.

No, they are not relevant. The bandits and ghosts are actually plants. The only bosses/mobs that are no plants are the Qadim mace mobs, Qadim himself and maybe the destroyer. Not sure about the last one though.

[Cyninja.2954]

Remove all of these:

Superior Sigil of Demon SlayingSuperior Sigil of Destroyer SlayingSuperior Sigil of SorrowSuperior Sigil of Elemental SlayingSuperior Sigil of SmotheringSuperior Sigil of Ghost SlayingSuperior Sigil of Grawl SlayingSuperior Sigil of Icebrood SlayingSuperior Sigil of Mad ScientistsSuperior Sigil of JusticeSuperior Sigil of Serpent SlayingSuperior Sigil of Dreams

Problem solved. The amount of min-max here is just to much. You are literally a hoarder at this point. There is no difficult content which requires this amount of maximization in this game.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

I actually was expecting that when they said you could change stats on legendary gear before release. Instead you have to carry all the sigils. Why not make a drop down like with the stats?

[zencow.3651]

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:No, they are not relevant. The bandits and ghosts are actually plants. The only bosses/mobs that are no plants are the Qadim mace mobs, Qadim himself and maybe the destroyer. Not sure about the last one though.

Thanks, just updated myself, raids don't benefit from any mob-specific potions and sigils.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Remove all of these:

Superior Sigil of Demon SlayingSuperior Sigil of Destroyer SlayingSuperior Sigil of SorrowSuperior Sigil of Elemental SlayingSuperior Sigil of SmotheringSuperior Sigil of Ghost SlayingSuperior Sigil of Grawl SlayingSuperior Sigil of Icebrood SlayingSuperior Sigil of Mad ScientistsSuperior Sigil of JusticeSuperior Sigil of Serpent SlayingSuperior Sigil of Dreams

Problem solved. The amount of min-max here is just to much. You are literally a hoarder at this point. There is no difficult content which requires this amount of maximization in this game.

Even Serpent Slaying (CM99) and Mad Scientists (CM100)? It's more than just min-maxing, it's also about the fun and rudimentary enjoyment of seeing BIG FAT NUMBERS and being TOP DPS. But why should we have to suffer more from inventory management to achieve this?

[Cyninja.2954]

@zencow.3651 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:No, they are not relevant. The bandits and ghosts are actually plants. The only bosses/mobs that are no plants are the Qadim mace mobs, Qadim himself and maybe the destroyer. Not sure about the last one though.

Thanks, just updated myself, raids don't benefit from any mob-specific potions and sigils.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Remove all of these:

Superior Sigil of Demon SlayingSuperior Sigil of Destroyer SlayingSuperior Sigil of SorrowSuperior Sigil of Elemental SlayingSuperior Sigil of SmotheringSuperior Sigil of Ghost SlayingSuperior Sigil of Grawl SlayingSuperior Sigil of Icebrood SlayingSuperior Sigil of Mad ScientistsSuperior Sigil of JusticeSuperior Sigil of Serpent SlayingSuperior Sigil of Dreams

Problem solved. The amount of min-max here is just to much. You are literally a hoarder at this point. There is no difficult content which requires this amount of maximization in this game.

Even Serpent Slaying (CM99) and Mad Scientists (CM100)? It's more than just min-maxing, it's also about the fun and rudimentary enjoyment of seeing BIG FAT NUMBERS and being TOP DPS. But why should we have to suffer more from inventory management to achieve this?

Sure, the system is in need of improvement. Doesn't change the fact that even CM99 and Cm100 can easily be completed without such levels of maximization.

The question now is: should Arenanet spend ressources on addressing a problem which is an issue to you and some very very few dedicated players, or should they spend those ressources on something else?

[Astralporing.1957]

@zencow.3651 said:

@"Kunzaito.8169" said:I feel very confident in saying that very, very few players are like you and carry 12 creature-specific sigils for the tiny DPS upgrade they offer when facing content that even half-kittened builds in a pug group can faceroll now (i.e. dungeons). I get that you're a fanatical min-maxer, and that's fine, but cluttered inventory is the price you pay for that vice.

@"Blocki.4931" said:Seems redundant since barely anybody goes to the length of having several rune/sigil setups.

10%-12% more damage than strictly Force/Air sigil isn't tiny! Even if you're at the average 10k DPS, that jumps to 11k-12k. 3 people netting 1.5k more DPS each is almost like having a "free" underperforming 4k DPS player tagging along!

But see that's part of the issue isn't it? Most people aren't using them because they are inconvenient/inaccessible by design while those who have more inventory slots will have room to support it. Something needs to change so more people can use them!No, most people do not bother, because for a majority of those sigils, they can only be used in environment that

doesn't

require so much minmaxing. Force/impact would be completely fine. The gain in kill times you get is in the end smaller than the time you use on switching them.Notice, by the way. how most of those are completely unusable (beyond the base +3% bonus) in raids.

By the way, you can drop Air sigil from the list. It can now be safely replaced by any slaying sigil, because the base +3% upgrade is still better than what Air offers. You may also consider using impact in its place, now that its base damage has been supposedly fixed.

[zencow.3651]

@Cyninja.2954 said:The question now is: should Arenanet spend ressources on addressing a problem which is an issue to you and some very very few dedicated players, or should they spend those ressources on something else?

Could they explore the issue and solve it by implementing a different way as horizontal progression to give dedicated players more stuff to do that's also beneficial for their game economy? That's their job to worry about.

Our role as forum debaters is to help them to see the problem from different perspectives.

[Danikat.8537]

At this point I'm thinking a better solution would be to remove sigils which are so niche they're more hassle to carry around than they're worth.

[phs.6089]

@zencow.3651 said:Even with legendary sigil swap update and the rune/sigil rework, just carrying around the following set for maximal power DPS performance in fractals/raids/dungeons etc takes a significant amount if inventory slot, not even accounting condi and support builds you may wish to swap to on the character and for WvW runes and sigils:

Superior Sigil of the NightSuperior Sigil of ImpactSuperior Sigil of ForceSuperior Sigil of Air

Superior Sigil of Demon SlayingSuperior Sigil of Destroyer SlayingSuperior Sigil of SorrowSuperior Sigil of Elemental SlayingSuperior Sigil of SmotheringSuperior Sigil of Ghost SlayingSuperior Sigil of Grawl SlayingSuperior Sigil of Icebrood SlayingSuperior Sigil of Mad ScientistsSuperior Sigil of JusticeSuperior Sigil of Serpent SlayingSuperior Sigil of DreamsYou need one of those 32 slot bags, its will cost you about 150 gold.

[zencow.3651]

@Danikat.8537 said:At this point I'm thinking a better solution would be to remove sigils which are so niche they're more hassle to carry around than they're worth.

Ok, then what about Runes and Sigils for WvW, should we delete most of them too? Everyone just uses Energy and Adventurers when roaming and zergs are mostly just Bloodlust/Force and Corruption/Burst, Strength, Renegade and Monk right?

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@Cyninja.2954 said:The question now is: should Arenanet spend ressources on addressing a problem which is an issue to you and some very very few dedicated players, or should they spend > those ressources on something else?

Considerong that drop down menus are already in the game im not sure if a lot of resscources are actually needed. Then again, im not a developer.

[zencow.3651]

@phs.6089 said:You need one of those 32 slot bags, its will cost you about 150 gold.

One of them is actually free from Sandswept Isles achievement which I haven't done yet :confounded:But I'd still like more inventory slots in the long term that would be taken up by runes.

[zencow.3651]

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:Considerong that drop down menus are already in the game im not sure if a lot of resscources are actually needed. Then again, im not a developer.

I heard somewhere that their UI is pretty hardcoded so it would take effort to ensure it comes out bugless, the data structures should be relatively simple/unintensive tho.