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Could you please stop making high heels and skimpy armor for females?


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@Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:

@Zhou.3605 said:I gotta say this....My roommate, who is female, has the same complaint. Well in opposition to you. I mean...she loves heels and hates that there are literally like one attempt maybe two at heels in general. And she thinks they suck. I mean....I agree that as far as heavy and medium armor goes...nothing is girly really. I feel it would be great to have some options where my heavy and medium armor characters are not busy trying to be men. Last time I checked it was okay to be a girl.... but I dunno these days if you can't dress like a man then for some reason its offensive. But then... you can dress like a man or woman in GW2. Just less often can you be effeminate if you are heavy or medium armor. Heavy you are a Knight of the Round Table usually, and medium you are a pirate....Yarr do not get me started on that kitten medium armor that makes you look like a kitten rooster....More heels, more effeminate armors.. Please. I am tired of it being wrong to be a girl and only right to be a man.

Nearly all of the female medium and heavy armors are feminine.

I am not saying they do not show that the character is female. But they are without a doubt masculine femininity.

Many (most?) of the female heavy armour sets have boobplates. Are you saying boobplates are masculine?!

And men have
breastplates
that looks like a man's chest. I'd assume at least some of those would have been requested to not look like a man's breast on a female, if we're covering the various bases here.

While you can use real-world logic to dictate that women would just wear men's armor, you're glossing over the fact that in the real-world, there isn't a large need for female exclusive body armor.

Further still, I know for a fact, if female armor were carbon copies of male armor people will complain and accuse the creators for being lazy. Confer real-world logic till the cows come home, but players want these rules bent regardless.

Wow, you're putting an awful lot of words into my mouth. I didn't say anything about real-world armour, make any reference to real-world logic, or suggest that the female armour should be carbon copies of the male armour. I was just questioning the suggestion that boobplates are masculine, nothing more.

I suppose I was addressing the notion of "boobplates" being particularly gendered rather that being custom. It's gendered, sure, but it only seems degrading to some because standards regarding armor are supported by male standards usually with the disregard of females.

The thing about masculinity is it's tinted by perception. Boobplates could be considered masculine to some if you consider practicality in combat as masculine (because it tends to be). Heck, that a female is charging into combat at all is rather masculine but we're not suppose to think that way I guess.

Apologies if I directed an undue argument toward you.

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There is already a wide variety of styles to choose from... This sounds more like you just don't like seeing the skimpy stuff on females period.

Please make more of skimpy outfits and armor. This game is way too modest.I dunno what is the word for 'skimpy' for males, I would like those too.

I cannot agree with this post. Majority of armors in the game are not skimpy. In fact, I find it difficult to find skimpy armors (that I like) for my characters.

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@Bolero Bloodreign.9025 said:There's a lot of fit men with a slim waist. The hip in the photo is not wide, it's the kilt you're mistakenly staring at.
And I can tell you for a fact a big part of what makes a woman feminine are breasts on a woman
, something you refuse to notice that armor is lacking.

Stop confusing “femininity” with the gender of being Female.What makes a woman/man “feminine” is demeanor, not boobs.

I disagree with you. Femininity is not only demeanor but is also associated with appearance. I can see a woman at a distance having never observed her demeanor and think she looks feminine. Some women are very feminine looking while other women are not feminine looking. Same thing with men some are very masculine looking while others are not.

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@Dashingsteel.3410 said:

@Bolero Bloodreign.9025 said:There's a lot of fit men with a slim waist. The hip in the photo is not wide, it's the kilt you're mistakenly staring at.
And I can tell you for a fact a big part of what makes a woman feminine are breasts on a woman
, something you refuse to notice that armor is lacking.

Stop confusing “femininity” with the gender of being Female.What makes a woman/man “feminine” is demeanor, not boobs.

I disagree with you. Femininity is not only demeanor but is also associated with appearance. I can see a woman at a distance having never observed her demeanor and think she looks feminine. Some women are very feminine looking while other women are not feminine looking. Same thing with men some are very masculine looking while others are not.

Not to mention feminine demeanor had no place in tactical/combat environments.

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@Leo G.4501 said:

@Bolero Bloodreign.9025 said:There's a lot of fit men with a slim waist. The hip in the photo is not wide, it's the kilt you're mistakenly staring at.
And I can tell you for a fact a big part of what makes a woman feminine are breasts on a woman
, something you refuse to notice that armor is lacking.

Stop confusing “femininity” with the gender of being Female.What makes a woman/man “feminine” is demeanor, not boobs.

I disagree with you. Femininity is not only demeanor but is also associated with appearance. I can see a woman at a distance having never observed her demeanor and think she looks feminine. Some women are very feminine looking while other women are not feminine looking. Same thing with men some are very masculine looking while others are not.

Not to mention feminine demeanor had no place in tactical/combat environments.

Tell that to Kasmeer. I hate Kasmeer

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@Bolero Bloodreign.9025 said:

@"Ashen.2907" said:I disagree. Nearly all of the armor sets in question are designed to emphasize female sexual characteristics even though doing so would negatively impact their function. They are objectively feminine.

You might want to have a look at "all" the armors out there like this one. This is the human female heavy Leystone armor.
Look at the profile photo in the middle, a flat chest with no breast.
There's nothing feminine about this armor except maybe the kilt if people want to consider that feminine. Embarrassed to say, but I actually have this armor, and many others like this.

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/gw2-leystone-heavy-armor-female.jpg

Might want to reread my post as you seem to have missed a word that precedes, "all."

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@LetoII.3782 said:

No one with a brain would use bows when pistols and rifles exist, yet here we are.

Untrue.Gunpowder weaponry had it's drawbacks well into the industrial age. It was only with the advent of self-contained ammunition that guns finally pushed other weaponry aside.

Right, but the comment was about bows in GW2 where rifles and pistols are high capacity automatic weapons using self contained ammunition.

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@Ashen.2907 said:

No one with a brain would use bows when pistols and rifles exist, yet here we are.

Untrue.Gunpowder weaponry had it's drawbacks well into the industrial age. It was only with the advent of self-contained ammunition that guns finally pushed other weaponry aside.

Right, but the comment was about bows in GW2 where rifles and pistols are high capacity automatic weapons using self contained ammunition.

Oh we still talking about this? :) My turn.Nobody in their right mind will ride a raptor or giant bunny.On the topic. Light armor desperately needs a proper mini skirt, with no pants or tights under it. Look medium has whole 2 of those now.

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@Batel.9206 said:

@Bolero Bloodreign.9025 said:There's a lot of fit men with a slim waist. The hip in the photo is not wide, it's the kilt you're mistakenly staring at.
And I can tell you for a fact a big part of what makes a woman feminine are breasts on a woman
, something you refuse to notice that armor is lacking.

Stop confusing “femininity” with the gender of being Female.What makes a woman/man “feminine” is demeanor, not boobs.

I disagree with you. Femininity is not only demeanor but is also associated with appearance. I can see a woman at a distance having never observed her demeanor and think she looks feminine. Some women are very feminine looking while other women are not feminine looking. Same thing with men some are very masculine looking while others are not.

Not to mention feminine demeanor had no place in tactical/combat environments.

Tell that to Kasmeer.
I hate Kasmeer

Well when you've got her kind of power, you can do whatever you want... But just imagine her abilities in the hands of a no-nonsense practical tactician.

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  • ArenaNet Staff

We see this topic arise quite often. But it seems that for each person who asks for less, another asks for more. In recent days, in threads other than this one, a player mentioned they are "unhappy with the lack of skimpy armors on medium and heavy armour for female humanoids" and another said, "I'm a female who plays females and I say my armour isn't skimpy enough." But the OP of this thread has said in a couple of threads that they want "Cool armor sets for human and norn females that aren't skimpy and don't sport high heels."

The point is: What is and is not attractive is subjective. What is "too much" for one is "not enough" for another. This applies to so many things in life, and in-game armor, outfits, and clothing -- in our game, in games in general, in media as a whole -- definitely gets discussed a lot.

I'm not sure there's a design solution that would address each and every personal opinion. But I agree with what folks have been saying about our games for more than a dozen years: Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 offer a wide variety of looks and customization options, enabling players to choose what suits them best. I celebrate the options and enjoy making my character my own through outfits, armor, dyes, accessories, and all the other choices available.

Last word: Please keep this thread on topic and avoid inappropriate comments. We want you to have a chance to contribute to the conversation, but can't carry on if this is going to go other the top. Thanks.

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Well, this thread is now "Bikini Armor part 2: Electric Boogaloo."

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but I always assumed that the point of making a female character is to look like a woman. It's pretty self-evident. We can nitpick and what-if about the historical design and application of armor all day, but all that is an aside in a videogame. In a game, our dress is metaphor, because there is no "real" to counter-balance aesthetic design. Knowing this, appealing to historical realism is going to be trumped by the primary goal of appealing to feminine aesthetic.

GW2 tries its best (sometimes) to merge these two design aesthetics, but you're going to get hips and boobs in full plate mail due to the aforementioned goal of making a woman.

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@Bolero Bloodreign.9025 said:There's a lot of fit men with a slim waist. The hip in the photo is not wide, it's the kilt you're mistakenly staring at.
And I can tell you for a fact a big part of what makes a woman feminine are breasts on a woman
, something you refuse to notice that armor is lacking.

Stop confusing “femininity” with the gender of being Female.What makes a woman/man “feminine” is demeanor, not boobs.

So long as babies are birthed at the hips and fed at the breast, society will always consider hips and boobs as prominent feminine features. Always know that the fact of biology comes first, and it is from this biology that society has built all of its constructs upon.

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@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:We see this topic arise quite often. But it seems that for each person who asks for less, another asks for more. In recent days, in threads other than this one, a player mentioned they are "unhappy with the lack of skimpy armors on medium and heavy armour for female humanoids" and another said, "I'm a female who plays females and I say my armour isn't skimpy enough." But the OP of this thread has said in a couple of threads that they want "Cool armor sets for human and norn females that aren't skimpy and don't sport high heels."

The point is: What is and is not attractive is subjective. What is "too much" for one is "not enough" for another. This applies to so many things in life, and in-game armor, outfits, and clothing -- in our game, in games in general, in media as a whole -- definitely gets discussed a lot.

I'm not sure there's a design solution that would address each and every personal opinion. But I agree with what folks have been saying about our games for more than a dozen years: Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 offer a wide variety of looks and customization options, enabling players to choose what suits them best. I celebrate the options and enjoy making my character my own through outfits, armor, dyes, accessories, and all the other choices available.

Last word: Please keep this thread on topic and avoid inappropriate comments. We want you to have a chance to contribute to the conversation, but can't carry on if this is going to go other the top. Thanks.

I'm thankful for some official input on the matter, I agree 100%, this is all just a matter of taste.

What makes us mad is when people want to take away our freedom of choice because it suits their own ideals. We don't want that, and there's been such an issue with people trying to force us all one way or another.

In the end, the best option is to simply give players choice. No one is forcing anyone to wear skimpy/ practical armour. You can mix and match armour styles to get the look you want.

If you want to be a realistic battle-hardened woman, you can do that!

If you want to be a fashionable woman who is flaunting her stuff on the battlefield with confidence, you can do that too!

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@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:So long as babies are birthed at the hips and fed at the breast, society will always consider hips and boobs as prominent female features. Always know that the fact of biology comes first, and it is from this biology that society has built all of its constructs upon.

I fixed that for you, now I can agree.

Wide hips, narrow waists and boobs are prominent features of the Female body, yet they do not embody Femininity, at all, which was my point.Going back to my bolded quote that I raised the issue with;

And I can tell you for a fact a big part of what makes a woman feminine are breasts on a woman

This can mean that flat chested women aren't feminine in the posters eyes. "Being a woman" (being a Feminine presenting entity) is more than boobs. It's how we walk, talk, express ourselves (Clothing/makeup/hairstyling etc).

Femininity is partially socially constructed, being made up of both socially-defined and biologically-created factors. This makes it distinct from the definition of the biological female sex, as both males and females can exhibit feminine traits. There's even lots of people that simultaneously display masculine and feminine qualities.

But back to the actual topic.I want more skimpy armors. For both genders and all armor weights. Armors that don't cover bums, hips, side boobs, ankles, shoulders etc. Something flattering and sexy. Because my characters are worth it.

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@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:So long as babies are birthed at the hips and fed at the breast, society will always consider hips and boobs as prominent
female
features. Always know that the fact of biology comes first, and it is from this biology that society has built all of its constructs upon.

I fixed that for you, now I can agree.

Wide hips, narrow waists and boobs are prominent features of the Female body, yet they
do not
embody Femininity, at all, which was my point.Going back to my bolded quote that I raised the issue with;

And I can tell you for a fact a big part of what makes a woman feminine are breasts on a woman

This can mean that flat chested women aren't feminine in the posters eyes. "Being a woman" is more than boobs. It's how we walk, talk, express ourselves (Clothing/makeup/hairstyling etc).

Femininity is partially socially constructed, being made up of both socially-defined and biologically-created factors. This makes it distinct from the definition of the biological female sex, as
both males and females can exhibit feminine traits
. There's even lots of people that simultaneously display masculine and feminine qualities.

The physical features are intrinsically linked to femininity. The fact is that yes, a woman with a flat chest is less feminine than one with shoulder boulders. Obviously. Expanding the scope of femininity the entirety of the universe doesn't change this relationship. It's not fair, but that's the nature of the beast.

Hence, booby plates on Plate Mail.

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@Dragon Priestess.9760 said:

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:We see this topic arise quite often. But it seems that for each person who asks for less, another asks for more. In recent days, in threads other than this one, a player mentioned they are "unhappy with the lack of skimpy armors on medium and heavy armour for female humanoids" and another said, "I'm a female who plays females and I say my armour isn't skimpy enough." But the OP of this thread has said in a couple of threads that they want "Cool armor sets for human and norn females that aren't skimpy and don't sport high heels."

The point is: What is and is not attractive is subjective. What is "too much" for one is "not enough" for another. This applies to so many things in life, and in-game armor, outfits, and clothing -- in our game, in games in general, in media as a whole -- definitely gets discussed a lot.

I'm not sure there's a design solution that would address each and every personal opinion. But I agree with what folks have been saying about our games for more than a dozen years: Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 offer a wide variety of looks and customization options, enabling players to choose what suits them best. I celebrate the options and enjoy making my character my own through outfits, armor, dyes, accessories, and all the other choices available.

Last word: Please keep this thread on topic and avoid inappropriate comments. We want you to have a chance to contribute to the conversation, but can't carry on if this is going to go other the top. Thanks.

I'm thankful for some official input on the matter, I agree 100%, this is all just a matter of taste.

What makes us mad is when people want to take away our freedom of choice because it suits their own ideals. We don't want that, and there's been such an issue with people trying to force us all one way or another.

In the end, the best option is to simply give players choice. No one is forcing anyone to wear skimpy/ practical armour. You can mix and match armour styles to get the look you want.

If you want to be a realistic battle-hardened woman, you can do that!

If you want to be a fashionable woman who is flaunting her stuff on the battlefield with confidence, you can do that too!

The problem isn't suiting ones ideals. The problem is hurting people. Most of the time, when somebody argues that you shouldn't do something (I.E. have skimpy armor), their case is that having such a thing creates tangible distress and harm in other people's lives. Even if it isn't easy to directly measure or see the outcome, doing the unspecified act still contributes to the ether of oppression that causes all of this distress.

In this case it's all wrong, as this

goes into the depths of research on this. The short version is: teenagers will always be self conscious no matter what you do, and people have realistic self-esteem instead of low self-esteem as adults.
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@Ashen.2907 said:

@"gebrechen.5643" said:I really like the "but it's a fantasy game argument". There isn't another logical reason for high heels existing but "it's fashion", while the things you mentioned have a real use."No one with a brain would use bows when pistols and rifles exist, yet here we are." Yes, bows are still around and are still used for hunting over rifles. Which means there are practical applications of Bows or Crossbows in the world, while there is not a single one for high heels in a fantasy world.I can live with them existing, but we don't need more of those but less. I really could see getting a lot more sandals or boots and especially more skirts, kilts, etc.

Bows are used over firearms by some modern hunters as a form of sport to personally handicap the hunter, not because they are in any way more effective than a rifle.

Depends on intent of the use of the animal as well. Classical weapons like bows and crossbows usually lean to cleaner kills with less potential for mutilation of smaller game and offer lower chances of fragmentation of bone or ammunition in the meat.

I just want to mention as a leatherworker and somewhat of a real-life combatant and medieval martial artist: Anyone talking about realism in armor should only talk about heavy armor. Leather was barely used historically for armor considering how ineffective it is (I mean, it's the skin of dead animals that died to less-deadly bows and spears than what were seen on the battlefield, especially considering cost/ease of making it in relation to gambeson (available as one of the low-level medium armor pieces BTW - props to ANET for that) which is superior in pretty much every way and made entirely of linen. I'm pretty sure the number of non-skimpy heavy armors in this game vastly outnumber the skimpy ones.

Nonetheless, diversity is good. My femme lesbian friend loves her sexualized eye-candy in video games, and I know several men who feel weird playing as such characters. The more diverse the options, the better, I say.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:We see this topic arise quite often. But it seems that for each person who asks for less, another asks for more. In recent days, in threads other than this one, a player mentioned they are "unhappy with the lack of skimpy armors on medium and heavy armour for female humanoids" and another said, "I'm a female who plays females and I say my armour isn't skimpy enough." But the OP of this thread has said in a couple of threads that they want "Cool armor sets for human and norn females that aren't skimpy and don't sport high heels."

The point is: What is and is not attractive is subjective. What is "too much" for one is "not enough" for another. This applies to so many things in life, and in-game armor, outfits, and clothing -- in our game, in games in general, in media as a whole -- definitely gets discussed a lot.

I'm not sure there's a design solution that would address each and every personal opinion. But I agree with what folks have been saying about our games for more than a dozen years: Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 offer a wide variety of looks and customization options, enabling players to choose what suits them best. I celebrate the options and enjoy making my character my own through outfits, armor, dyes, accessories, and all the other choices available.

Last word: Please keep this thread on topic and avoid inappropriate comments. We want you to have a chance to contribute to the conversation, but can't carry on if this is going to go other the top. Thanks.

I'm thankful for some official input on the matter, I agree 100%, this is all just a matter of taste.

What makes us mad is when people want to take away our freedom of choice because it suits their own ideals. We don't want that, and there's been such an issue with people trying to force us all one way or another.

In the end, the best option is to simply give players choice. No one is forcing anyone to wear skimpy/ practical armour. You can mix and match armour styles to get the look you want.

If you want to be a realistic battle-hardened woman, you can do that!

If you want to be a fashionable woman who is flaunting her stuff on the battlefield with confidence, you can do that too!

The problem isn't suiting ones ideals. The problem is hurting people. Most of the time, when somebody argues that you shouldn't do something (I.E. have skimpy armor), their case is that having such a thing creates tangible distress and harm in other people's lives. Even if it isn't easy to directly measure or see the outcome, doing the unspecified act still contributes to the ether of oppression that causes all of this distress.

In this case it's all wrong, as this
goes into the depths of research on this. The short version is: teenagers will always be self conscious no matter what you do, and people have realistic self-esteem instead of low self-esteem as adults.

Fire is hot. Instead of going all nuts running around trying to make fire cold, I just don't stand in it, problem solved. If video game armor is distressing someone that bad, then my suggestion would be not to play video games: If the fire's hot, don't stand in it. "But maybe they enjoy the games", I'm not buying it, if something as simple as armor can cause distress, they likely aren't having a lot of fun, because armors are everywhere in the game, and some of them are going to be "distressing". It's a lot simpler, and a lot cleaner of a solution than forcing the entirety of the video game industry to dress all of their characters in burlap bags to avoid "distressing" someone.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:We see this topic arise quite often. But it seems that for each person who asks for less, another asks for more. In recent days, in threads other than this one, a player mentioned they are "unhappy with the lack of skimpy armors on medium and heavy armour for female humanoids" and another said, "I'm a female who plays females and I say my armour isn't skimpy enough." But the OP of this thread has said in a couple of threads that they want "Cool armor sets for human and norn females that aren't skimpy and don't sport high heels."

The point is: What is and is not attractive is subjective. What is "too much" for one is "not enough" for another. This applies to so many things in life, and in-game armor, outfits, and clothing -- in our game, in games in general, in media as a whole -- definitely gets discussed a lot.

I'm not sure there's a design solution that would address each and every personal opinion. But I agree with what folks have been saying about our games for more than a dozen years: Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 offer a wide variety of looks and customization options, enabling players to choose what suits them best. I celebrate the options and enjoy making my character my own through outfits, armor, dyes, accessories, and all the other choices available.

Last word: Please keep this thread on topic and avoid inappropriate comments. We want you to have a chance to contribute to the conversation, but can't carry on if this is going to go other the top. Thanks.

I'm thankful for some official input on the matter, I agree 100%, this is all just a matter of taste.

What makes us mad is when people want to take away our freedom of choice because it suits their own ideals. We don't want that, and there's been such an issue with people trying to force us all one way or another.

In the end, the best option is to simply give players choice. No one is forcing anyone to wear skimpy/ practical armour. You can mix and match armour styles to get the look you want.

If you want to be a realistic battle-hardened woman, you can do that!

If you want to be a fashionable woman who is flaunting her stuff on the battlefield with confidence, you can do that too!

The problem isn't suiting ones ideals. The problem is hurting people. Most of the time, when somebody argues that you shouldn't do something (I.E. have skimpy armor), their case is that having such a thing creates tangible distress and harm in other people's lives. Even if it isn't easy to directly measure or see the outcome, doing the unspecified act still contributes to the ether of oppression that causes all of this distress.

In this case it's all wrong, as this
goes into the depths of research on this. The short version is: teenagers will always be self conscious no matter what you do, and people have realistic self-esteem instead of low self-esteem as adults.

Not sure what the argument is here. Are you trying to say that skimpy armour due to someone's personal choice is hurting people?

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:So long as babies are birthed at the hips and fed at the breast, society will always consider hips and boobs as prominent
female
features. Always know that the fact of biology comes first, and it is from this biology that society has built all of its constructs upon.

I fixed that for you, now I can agree.

Wide hips, narrow waists and boobs are prominent features of the Female body, yet they
do not
embody Femininity, at all, which was my point.Going back to my bolded quote that I raised the issue with;

And I can tell you for a fact a big part of what makes a woman feminine are breasts on a woman

This can mean that flat chested women aren't feminine in the posters eyes. "Being a woman" is more than boobs. It's how we walk, talk, express ourselves (Clothing/makeup/hairstyling etc).

Femininity is partially socially constructed, being made up of both socially-defined and biologically-created factors. This makes it distinct from the definition of the biological female sex, as
both males and females can exhibit feminine traits
. There's even lots of people that simultaneously display masculine and feminine qualities.

The physical features are intrinsically linked to femininity. The fact is that yes, a woman with a flat chest is less feminine than one with shoulder boulders. Obviously. Expanding the scope of femininity the entirety of the universe doesn't change this relationship. It's not fair, but that's the nature of the beast.

Hence, booby plates on Plate Mail.

I agree with this. Expanding the scope of femininity is merely appealing to notions of body positivity and such, which are more ideals than objective views.

Make up, hairstyle, clothing and the like are superficial. If you had said more like agreeable, empathetic/emotionally motivated, risk averse, choosy or aesthetic motivated or some such, I could agree, but the points you list are as easily changed as your shoes and it's more a disservice to females to say their femininity is so one dimensional.

But I do agree, femininity is more than just boobs.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:So long as babies are birthed at the hips and fed at the breast, society will always consider hips and boobs as prominent
female
features. Always know that the fact of biology comes first, and it is from this biology that society has built all of its constructs upon.

I fixed that for you, now I can agree.

Wide hips, narrow waists and boobs are prominent features of the Female body, yet they
do not
embody Femininity, at all, which was my point.Going back to my bolded quote that I raised the issue with;

And I can tell you for a fact a big part of what makes a woman feminine are breasts on a woman

This can mean that flat chested women aren't feminine in the posters eyes. "Being a woman" is more than boobs. It's how we walk, talk, express ourselves (Clothing/makeup/hairstyling etc).

Femininity is partially socially constructed, being made up of both socially-defined and biologically-created factors. This makes it distinct from the definition of the biological female sex, as
both males and females can exhibit feminine traits
. There's even lots of people that simultaneously display masculine and feminine qualities.

The physical features are intrinsically linked to femininity. The fact is that yes, a woman with a flat chest is less feminine than one with shoulder boulders. Obviously. Expanding the scope of femininity the entirety of the universe doesn't change this relationship. It's not fair, but that's the nature of the beast.

Hence, booby plates on Plate Mail.

So... if you see a woman with massive boobs, dressed kinda masculine, acting like the sterotypical male trucker and you can hear in her voice that she smokes a lot... she is still more feminine than a woman with a flat chest, wearing a pretty dress and heels, put effort into her hair and makeup, and have a more gentle and soft personality? Yes this might be an extreme example... but I really don't doubt that women like these 2 examples are actually out there.

I very much get that physical appearance do mean a lot to how feminine a person is perceived by most people... however even if you only look at appearance it is more than just boobs.

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@Bolero Bloodreign.9025 said:

@Turin.6921 said:Yeah a man with a slim waist and wide hips. You have a really narrow idea of what femininity is if it only revolves around the chest.

There's a lot of fit men with a slim waist. The hip in the photo is not wide, it's the kilt you're mistakenly staring at. And I can tell you for a fact a big part of what makes a woman feminine are breasts on a woman, something you refuse to notice that armor is lacking.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with Turin in this one...the chest is not flat, there is actually a distinct breast area present, it just so happens to be about an A cup, but it is definitely not flat...and I did look at the profile view.

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