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The new balance - a conclusion


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@Setz.9675 said:And thats where you are wrong buddy. Because a full raid clear can easily be done in <3.5 hours if you arent bad and not have people take breaks after every boss.Gold rewards alone from the bosses is always >50gold due to 2 wings being double rewards. Then you convert your mini's into tokens and weapons/armor drops as well netting you every week around 400 HoT tokens, and for every 1k tokens you buy a ghostly infusion and sell it for a modest 80g profit. PoF wings nets you 200 ish tokens every week which you use to buy the jinn/qadim statue stuff for another 30g profit /week or save it up for that dhuum chair for a nice 300 ish gold profit. Which in totals nets you arent 30g/hour. Also if you arent converting your armors and weapons into tokens your profit is even larger because a single ascended weapon/armor piece costs 40-70g to craft which you dont have to do thansk to your drops.

First of all 3.5h isn't fast and no, I'm not your buddy.Secondly, I'm not netting 400 HoT tokens every week and there are lots of weeks where you even don't get a single asc drop to convert into tokens. Same with wing 5/6 tokens. You exaggerate so much in numbers here.And even if you are making 60g+ it's still bad compared to many other things in the game. Numbers are even worse if you count every reward that tight you are trying to sell here. Fractals (pristines & normal relics) then are a gold mine in relation to raids and they are much easier. It's obvious I don't need to mention the words Istan and Silverwastes here.You can say that in your subjective thinking raid rewards are good for you but they can't stand a chance against most of the other content that is so much easier to conquer.Sorry, I'm not buying your skritt.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Setz.9675 said:And thats where you are wrong buddy. Because a full raid clear can easily be done in <3.5 hours if you arent bad and not have people take breaks after every boss.Gold rewards alone from the bosses is always >50gold due to 2 wings being double rewards. Then you convert your mini's into tokens and weapons/armor drops as well netting you every week around 400 HoT tokens, and for every 1k tokens you buy a ghostly infusion and sell it for a modest 80g profit. PoF wings nets you 200 ish tokens every week which you use to buy the jinn/qadim statue stuff for another 30g profit /week or save it up for that dhuum chair for a nice 300 ish gold profit. Which in totals nets you arent 30g/hour. Also if you arent converting your armors and weapons into tokens your profit is even larger because a single ascended weapon/armor piece costs 40-70g to craft which you dont have to do thansk to your drops.

First of all 3.5h isn't fast and no, I'm not your buddy.Secondly, I'm not netting 400 HoT tokens every week and there are lots of weeks where you even don't get a single asc drop to convert into tokens. Same with wing 5/6 tokens. You exaggerate so much in numbers here.And even if you are making 60g+ it's still bad compared to
many
other things in the game. Numbers are even worse if you count every reward that tight you are trying to sell here. Fractals (pristines & normal relics) then are a gold mine in relation to raids and they are much easier. It's obvious I don't need to mention the words Istan and Silverwastes here.You can say that in your subjective thinking raid rewards are good for you but they can't stand a chance against most of the other content that is so much easier to conquer.Sorry, I'm not buying your skritt.

Sure some weeks you wont get a single drop and then next week you return with 8 minis and 2 weapons from xera but whatever have fun sticking your head in the sand. It's obvious you arent mentioning open world content like HoT meta's or vanilla world bosses, because those are actually bad rewards compared to time investment. But no let's compare raids to the top gold making strategy, and if raids doesnt make more than the rewards are bad. Ye not buying your nonsense either.

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@Setz.9675 said:

@Setz.9675 said:And thats where you are wrong buddy. Because a full raid clear can easily be done in <3.5 hours if you arent bad and not have people take breaks after every boss.Gold rewards alone from the bosses is always >50gold due to 2 wings being double rewards. Then you convert your mini's into tokens and weapons/armor drops as well netting you every week around 400 HoT tokens, and for every 1k tokens you buy a ghostly infusion and sell it for a modest 80g profit. PoF wings nets you 200 ish tokens every week which you use to buy the jinn/qadim statue stuff for another 30g profit /week or save it up for that dhuum chair for a nice 300 ish gold profit. Which in totals nets you arent 30g/hour. Also if you arent converting your armors and weapons into tokens your profit is even larger because a single ascended weapon/armor piece costs 40-70g to craft which you dont have to do thansk to your drops.

First of all 3.5h isn't fast and no, I'm not your buddy.Secondly, I'm not netting 400 HoT tokens every week and there are lots of weeks where you even don't get a single asc drop to convert into tokens. Same with wing 5/6 tokens. You exaggerate so much in numbers here.And even if you are making 60g+ it's still bad compared to
many
other things in the game. Numbers are even worse if you count every reward that tight you are trying to sell here. Fractals (pristines & normal relics) then are a gold mine in relation to raids and they are much easier. It's obvious I don't need to mention the words Istan and Silverwastes here.You can say that in your subjective thinking raid rewards are good for you but they can't stand a chance against most of the other content that is so much easier to conquer.Sorry, I'm not buying your skritt.

Sure some weeks you wont get a single drop and then next week you return with 8 minis and 2 weapons from xera but whatever have fun sticking your head in the sand. It's obvious you arent mentioning open world content like HoT meta's or vanilla world bosses, because those are actually bad rewards compared to time investment. But no let's compare raids to the top gold making strategy, and if raids doesnt make more than the rewards are bad. Ye not buying your nonsense either.

Vanilla RIBA farm remains one of the most lucrative farms in the game. Still at around 25-30 gold per hour if you convert everything.HoT TD -> AB is one of the most lucrative farms in game still.PoF Istan is still going very strong.Boss runs are still popular even if they are only medium reward wise.

Raids yield 22 bosses or boss events yielding 2 gold each with 2 bonus wings yielding 4 gold. That is at best 28 gold + 32 gold = 60 gold in direct liquid reward. Now let's add in the bags which amount to around 5-10 gold depending on how lucky you get. Let's add another 10-20 gold from potentially exotic items. That's a total of 75 - 90 gold before Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals. Let's assume 300 Magnetite Shards per week and 200 Gaeting Crystals (from selling and salvaging everything you get), at current conversion rates that comes out to about another 28 - 36 gold with buying the Ghostly Infusion and selling it as well as another 25 - 30 gold for the Bench of the Final Judge.

So you end up with a total of around 75+28+25 = 128 gold to 90+36+30 = 156 gold per clear with VERY generous estimates on my part and converting ALL gains into money.

Now let's assume 3 hours clear time (we are talking very pro static here with weeks or months of practice) that amounts to 41 gold to 52 gold per hour once per week. This is not factoring in ANY time for practice, getting this good, adapting builds and play style. Compared to the most efficient farms in game which yield 25 - 30 gold with 0 effort and investment.

No way are you getting 60 gold per hour, not even close. I doubt you are converting all your Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals and even then your 60 gold are far far off and not consistent. If you are not converting all you get or not running a perfect static, you are below what people make with open world farms by a lot.

What was it you said:

@Setz.9675 said:have fun sticking your head in the sand.

right before you went on to mention some of the most popular farms in the game. Legit.

EDIT: just for the record, I could have done the top calculation with a lot less generosity and your statement would have been even more ludicrous incorrect. A decent player not converting all their gains into gold will be at about 15-20 gold per hour with raids. That's okay but not stellar compared to the effort involved.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Setz.9675 said:And thats where you are wrong buddy. Because a full raid clear can easily be done in <3.5 hours if you arent bad and not have people take breaks after every boss.Gold rewards alone from the bosses is always >50gold due to 2 wings being double rewards. Then you convert your mini's into tokens and weapons/armor drops as well netting you every week around 400 HoT tokens, and for every 1k tokens you buy a ghostly infusion and sell it for a modest 80g profit. PoF wings nets you 200 ish tokens every week which you use to buy the jinn/qadim statue stuff for another 30g profit /week or save it up for that dhuum chair for a nice 300 ish gold profit. Which in totals nets you arent 30g/hour. Also if you arent converting your armors and weapons into tokens your profit is even larger because a single ascended weapon/armor piece costs 40-70g to craft which you dont have to do thansk to your drops.

First of all 3.5h isn't fast and no, I'm not your buddy.Secondly, I'm not netting 400 HoT tokens every week and there are lots of weeks where you even don't get a single asc drop to convert into tokens. Same with wing 5/6 tokens. You exaggerate so much in numbers here.And even if you are making 60g+ it's still bad compared to
many
other things in the game. Numbers are even worse if you count every reward that tight you are trying to sell here. Fractals (pristines & normal relics) then are a gold mine in relation to raids and they are much easier. It's obvious I don't need to mention the words Istan and Silverwastes here.You can say that in your subjective thinking raid rewards are good for you but they can't stand a chance against most of the other content that is so much easier to conquer.Sorry, I'm not buying your skritt.

Sure some weeks you wont get a single drop and then next week you return with 8 minis and 2 weapons from xera but whatever have fun sticking your head in the sand. It's obvious you arent mentioning open world content like HoT meta's or vanilla world bosses, because those are actually bad rewards compared to time investment. But no let's compare raids to the top gold making strategy, and if raids doesnt make more than the rewards are bad. Ye not buying your nonsense either.

Vanilla RIBA farm remains one of the most lucrative farms in the game. Still at around 25-30 gold per hour if you convert everything.HoT TD -> AB is one of the most lucrative farms in game still.PoF Istan is still going very strong.Boss runs are still popular even if they are only medium reward wise.

Raids yield 22 bosses or boss events yielding 2 gold each with 2 bonus wings yielding 4 gold. That is at best 28 gold + 32 gold = 60 gold in direct liquid reward. Now let's add in the bags which amount to around 5-10 gold depending on how lucky you get. Let's add another 10-20 gold from potentially exotic items. That's a total of 75 - 90 gold before Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals. Let's assume 300 Magnetite Shards per week and 200 Gaeting Crystals (from selling and salvaging everything you get), at current conversion rates that comes out to about another 28 - 36 gold with buying the Ghostly Infusion and selling it as well as another 25 - 30 gold for the Bench of the Final Judge.

So you end up with a total of around 75+28+25 = 128 gold to 90+36+30 = 156 gold per clear with
VERY generous estimates
on my part and converting ALL gains into money.

Now let's assume 3 hours clear time (we are talking very pro static here with weeks or months of practice) that amounts to 41 gold to 52 gold per hour once per week. This is not factoring in ANY time for practice, getting this good, adapting builds and play style. Compared to the most efficient farms in game which yield 25 - 30 gold with 0 effort and investment.

No way are you getting 60 gold per hour, not even close. I doubt you are converting all your Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals and even then your 60 gold are far far off and not consistent. If you are not converting all you get or not running a perfect static, you are below what people make with open world farms by a lot.

What was it you said:

@Setz.9675 said:have fun sticking your head in the sand.

right before you went on to mention some of the most popular farms in the game. Legit.

EDIT: just for the record, I could have done the top calculation with a lot less generosity and your statement would have been even more ludicrous incorrect. A decent player not converting all their gains into gold will be at about 15-20 gold per hour with raids. That's okay but not stellar compared to the effort involved.

I'm not necessarilly agreeing, or disagreeing with anything anyone has said, but I just wanted to point out that your estimation, while probably accurate doesn't mean that the devs intended for it to be farmed in such a way, using the same repeated method, which may in turn have resulted in the balance patch. I think the devs may create meta, but meta is meta for a Reason. Meta means you use things the devs may not have planned for to be much more efficient than you're meant to be. It's -technically- not a bug, with an emphasis on -technically-. That means the devs were more than likely bound to address it sooner or later, if they consider it falls outside of their original plan. That's how they defended their point of view on mesmer changes for high end content (their word), which means they have their own view on the raid content, which is most likely not concordant with that of players. In my opinion, more changes are on the way in raiding future.

To be more accurate, I think the devs are watching at how easy clears are with a given method, and if one method makes it too easy, and repeatable, they'll try to lower player efficiency in order for it to be actually taxing. It's more subtle outside of raids, but in Fractals, the random instabilities contribute to upsetting player methods, while on newer maps, you have to contend with unusually aggressive mobs, with farther range. They even upset mounts abilities to skip over mob encounters in their latest 2 maps (Jahai and Kourna) with a lot of mobs making sure we get dismounted via high damage ranged attacks that repeats, making it harder to dodge on a mount. I think the devs definitely want to fight back against fullproof methods. So I expect raids to become more difficult to complete using the same set of Tools (same profession roster). They want to add more random factors to the formula by splitting roles I think, to avoid the 1 method 100% success (provided all goes well).

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@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:I'll repeat this: the message was loud and clear.Give your HoT classes a rest, PoF is out for a year now.Try and see what you can do.

I tried. Repeatedly. It only works on some raidbosses, and then only with a very very fixed comp that supplies missing utility/boons. Because anet didnt solve the problems of that comp, they just threw more aegis/stab/dps at it and tried to nerf the hot competition enough to make the pof variant look better.

Id love for fb/ren to be a thing. I love playing alacrity renegade (both harrier and condi) and firebrand is just so op. If the game was only about quickness, alacrity, stability and aegis... fb/ren comp would win hands down. But it isnt. Its also about being able to stack boons to leave to do mechanics, its about being able to bring additional utility, while doing your "core" job.

So, what happened to 'Raids are easy AF?' If a single class could cheeze it to the grade of being easy AF, clearly there was something wrong, no?

This reminds me days
was introduced in Tera and
got RevampYou could slap a mystic with 4 brawlers and there was nothing that this composition couldn't clear.

New dungeon came with brawler and 'slaying run' was done in under 6 hours. There were
that increase your crit damage if your HP was below 50% they called 'slaying'

Raids are easy AF. Do changes like in the last patch make it fun? No. I feel like people who go "Yeee this patch is awesome, go play something else and git gut." don't play raids that much. Yes, it's fun to do something challenging like some CMs once. ONCE. But if you think how you need to deal with having way slower gameplay overall when it already is slow, this game is like playing chess with new player that does 1 move a minute.All i hear from people who like this patch is "Think of a new build scrubs" and then they proceed to wait for meta build to get released. Surprise, surprise meta builds are not illuminati made concept, but it is provided by players who spend hundreds of hours and thousands of gold on finding what is the best possible solution and guess what, working people don't have that much time to invest into researching it themselves.The thing is right now that the ONLY best solution (which ofc isnt good to have only 1 good solution) has been nerfed to the ground and there is nothing even comparably good enough AND fun enough to replace it. I know few chrono mains who were die hard fans of their class. They loved the variablity in the build and now they are just so demotivated to even play the game. Balance patch shouldn't make you want to quit the game.

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I thought it was really interesting when Deadeye was introduced with the "Fire for Effect" trait that grants might to allies near you as well as near your target since this, in theory, opened the door to having a more spread out group, or at least a ranged and melee sub-group that could receive might stacks.

Of course, in practice, this doesn't work at all since almost every other boon in the game doesn't get spread over a distance as well as this, particularly with Chrono skills, but I think the devs would do well to making more changes to skills like "Fire for Effect" so that raids and other encounters with interesting mechanics aren't always in direct opposition of the need to stay huddled in a little boon-sharing ball all the time.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Setz.9675 said:And thats where you are wrong buddy. Because a full raid clear can easily be done in <3.5 hours if you arent bad and not have people take breaks after every boss.Gold rewards alone from the bosses is always >50gold due to 2 wings being double rewards. Then you convert your mini's into tokens and weapons/armor drops as well netting you every week around 400 HoT tokens, and for every 1k tokens you buy a ghostly infusion and sell it for a modest 80g profit. PoF wings nets you 200 ish tokens every week which you use to buy the jinn/qadim statue stuff for another 30g profit /week or save it up for that dhuum chair for a nice 300 ish gold profit. Which in totals nets you arent 30g/hour. Also if you arent converting your armors and weapons into tokens your profit is even larger because a single ascended weapon/armor piece costs 40-70g to craft which you dont have to do thansk to your drops.

First of all 3.5h isn't fast and no, I'm not your buddy.Secondly, I'm not netting 400 HoT tokens every week and there are lots of weeks where you even don't get a single asc drop to convert into tokens. Same with wing 5/6 tokens. You exaggerate so much in numbers here.And even if you are making 60g+ it's still bad compared to
many
other things in the game. Numbers are even worse if you count every reward that tight you are trying to sell here. Fractals (pristines & normal relics) then are a gold mine in relation to raids and they are much easier. It's obvious I don't need to mention the words Istan and Silverwastes here.You can say that in your subjective thinking raid rewards are good for you but they can't stand a chance against most of the other content that is so much easier to conquer.Sorry, I'm not buying your skritt.

Sure some weeks you wont get a single drop and then next week you return with 8 minis and 2 weapons from xera but whatever have fun sticking your head in the sand. It's obvious you arent mentioning open world content like HoT meta's or vanilla world bosses, because those are actually bad rewards compared to time investment. But no let's compare raids to the top gold making strategy, and if raids doesnt make more than the rewards are bad. Ye not buying your nonsense either.

Vanilla RIBA farm remains one of the most lucrative farms in the game. Still at around 25-30 gold per hour if you convert everything.HoT TD -> AB is one of the most lucrative farms in game still.PoF Istan is still going very strong.Boss runs are still popular even if they are only medium reward wise.

Raids yield 22 bosses or boss events yielding 2 gold each with 2 bonus wings yielding 4 gold. That is at best 28 gold + 32 gold = 60 gold in direct liquid reward. Now let's add in the bags which amount to around 5-10 gold depending on how lucky you get. Let's add another 10-20 gold from potentially exotic items. That's a total of 75 - 90 gold before Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals. Let's assume 300 Magnetite Shards per week and 200 Gaeting Crystals (from selling and salvaging everything you get), at current conversion rates that comes out to about another 28 - 36 gold with buying the Ghostly Infusion and selling it as well as another 25 - 30 gold for the Bench of the Final Judge.

So you end up with a total of around 75+28+25 = 128 gold to 90+36+30 = 156 gold per clear with
VERY generous estimates
on my part and converting ALL gains into money.

Now let's assume 3 hours clear time (we are talking very pro static here with weeks or months of practice) that amounts to 41 gold to 52 gold per hour once per week. This is not factoring in ANY time for practice, getting this good, adapting builds and play style. Compared to the most efficient farms in game which yield 25 - 30 gold with 0 effort and investment.

No way are you getting 60 gold per hour, not even close. I doubt you are converting all your Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals and even then your 60 gold are far far off and not consistent. If you are not converting all you get or not running a perfect static, you are below what people make with open world farms by a lot.

What was it you said:

@Setz.9675 said:have fun sticking your head in the sand.

right before you went on to mention some of the most popular farms in the game. Legit.

EDIT: just for the record, I could have done the top calculation with a lot less generosity and your statement would have been even more ludicrous incorrect. A decent player not converting all their gains into gold will be at about 15-20 gold per hour with raids. That's okay but not stellar compared to the effort involved.

Couldn't have written it better and agree more. Thanks again for this post.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

No way are you getting 60 gold per hour, not even close. I doubt you are converting all your Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals and even then your 60 gold are far far off and not consistent. If you are not converting all you get or not running a perfect static, you are below what people make with open world farms by a lot.

At what point did I say 60g/hour? Please do point it out because I cant let that typo go, 30g/hour while raiding is very doable is what I said. When looking at raid rewards, the unique skins can have good personal value as well and you wont get those in open world farming.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

for a lot of people it isn´t about completing the content anymore, if you are just in for the loot, maybe it isn´t the right content for you anyway. you can pretty much kill almost every boss with 10 necros autoatacking, but would that be fun? and thats the problem right now, you can either choose to play without optimal boons which is super akward and feels cluncky or play a super strict settup that make anoying (yes there are no hard mechanics, just anoying ones) mechanics even more anoying. missing out alc/quickness especially when you simply went for deleting a bomb at sabetha is the wort feeling ever. doing mechanics should be rewarding not punishing for your own gameplay expierience,

If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete? Seems to me we should stick to the thread for now.

The idea that the raid design team needs to talk to the class balance team so that raids are not 'impossible' to complete makes no sense. Anet knows what mechanics are possible to do in a raid, they know by what margins teams are successful at completing them. Stats they have will tell them what is reasonable for class changes and what isn't. The idea that these two groups talk to 'hard-engineer' raids is unnecessary and not based on what is happening in the game.

Did you read op? I don't see the word difficult. Raids are still easy, but a bit more annoying or unfun you could say.

yes I read it ... he was complaining about stacking mechanics punishing people for not stacking. That's a performance-based complaint ... even if the OP wants us to think it's not.

It is not, it actually is both a performance and boss mechanic based complaint... even if you want us to think it's not.

Convince yourself whatever you will. If it's NOT a performance based discussion, why the hell would the OP suggest that the raid content devs talk to the balance team? That makes no sense either; balance team doesn't influence 'not fun' raids at all. So which is it?

The basic complaint is that the last balance reduced options for comps and made it more restrictive in play if you want to maintain performance.

Compositions are based around boss mechanics and game design. I'm not even sure how you can suggest otherwise.

... good thing I have not ONCE so far suggested that compositions aren't based around game mechanics /shrug

Player performance very often plays less a role in meta comps designed by high skill raid guilds because all their players are top tier and as such the composition (which often get mirrored by the general community for lack of better understanding) are based around boss mechanics.

The complaint of TC as such makes sense, the balance team balances without the content in mind but simply with results say based on boon out put.

The idea that class skills are balanced around content doesn’t make sense, ever; there is much more constancy with classes and their abilities than there is with content and the mechanics that govern them. Also, it's hard enough for devs to just balance classes let alone ensure that whatever that balance is, it further restricted by the imaginations of content devs to ensure players subjective sense of what is 'fun' is placated to.

Sure, maybe there is too much favour towards stacking … and the solution to that shouldn’t be for the balance team to provide players with comps that allow them to ignore those mechanics like was happening with the absolutely and ridiculously broken Chrono boon giving, sharing AND duration increase builds.

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@Obtena.7952 said:The idea that class skills are balanced around content doesn’t make sense, ever;And yet they are balanced that way. They always were (although in the beginning it was mostly SPvP content they were balanced around). And there were at least a few case of builds getting nerfed in all modes because they happened to be overperforming in one single situation (like that thief build that got hit with a nerfbat because someone used it to solo Sloth - even if it took him few hours). And guardian staff got first nerfed and completely redone later on only because some people were using it to attack through gates in WvW.

But yeah, classes aren't balanced around content. Not at all [/sarcasm]

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The idea that class skills are balanced around content doesn’t make sense, ever;And yet they
are
balanced that way. They always were (although in the beginning it was mostly SPvP content they were balanced around). And there were at least a few case of builds getting nerfed in all modes because they happened to be overperforming in one single situation (like that thief build that got hit with a nerfbat because someone used it to solo Sloth - even if it took him few hours). And guardian staff got first nerfed and completely redone later on only because some people were using it to attack through gates in WvW.

But yeah, classes aren't balanced around content. Not at all [/sarcasm]

The scope of what we are talking about here is instanced group content, and that is what my statement was referring to; if you want to change the goal posts in the discussion to include WvW to be semantic, then I get a chance to clarify. Anet isn't going to continue to allow a situation where people access OP'ed specs to trivialize game mechanics and content in PVE, even if it means it changes the 'fun' for a portion of the players. Your examples are what appears to be fixing unintended features , not balancing because of performance; bad correlation on your part. The post above yours says it eloquently:

@Aldath.1275 said:Fault of the game design as a whole if in order to be successful you need a class whose only purpose is to spit out endless boons then.If the game is clunky without boons, it isn't the fault of the class.

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@Jeknar.6184 said:If bosses are dying without enraging, why are we complaining?

Because bosses need to die in optimal time with at least half of timer left as halved kill time means half as much mechanics and lot faster runs in general. Therefore squads should be optimized for maximal dps and minimal support (to very riskful degree). And no, potential wipes don't count. Wiping twice on most bosses is still faster than taking extra support 'cause extra support means getting close to enrage and soooo much more mechanics that wipe would happen inevitably anyway 'cause someone would mess up a mechanic for sure if kills take that long and even extra support wouldn't help it. Extra dps would've saved from that happening. And ofc we're not talking about anything that does 31k or less on golem, those builds aren't meta and risk a wipe with their lower dps. We need something with 34k+ dps since we can cover golem-like conditions on our runs with 100% certainty, especially when pugging.

^short version of the stuff Kitty hears when people explain the mandatoryness of metabuilds and strats in every situation.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

for a lot of people it isn´t about completing the content anymore, if you are just in for the loot, maybe it isn´t the right content for you anyway. you can pretty much kill almost every boss with 10 necros autoatacking, but would that be fun? and thats the problem right now, you can either choose to play without optimal boons which is super akward and feels cluncky or play a super strict settup that make anoying (yes there are no hard mechanics, just anoying ones) mechanics even more anoying. missing out alc/quickness especially when you simply went for deleting a bomb at sabetha is the wort feeling ever. doing mechanics should be rewarding not punishing for your own gameplay expierience,

If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete? Seems to me we should stick to the thread for now.

The idea that the raid design team needs to talk to the class balance team so that raids are not 'impossible' to complete makes no sense. Anet knows what mechanics are possible to do in a raid, they know by what margins teams are successful at completing them. Stats they have will tell them what is reasonable for class changes and what isn't. The idea that these two groups talk to 'hard-engineer' raids is unnecessary and not based on what is happening in the game.

Did you read op? I don't see the word difficult. Raids are still easy, but a bit more annoying or unfun you could say.

yes I read it ... he was complaining about stacking mechanics punishing people for not stacking. That's a performance-based complaint ... even if the OP wants us to think it's not.

It is not, it actually is both a performance and boss mechanic based complaint... even if you want us to think it's not.

Convince yourself whatever you will. If it's NOT a performance based discussion, why the hell would the OP suggest that the raid content devs talk to the balance team? That makes no sense either; balance team doesn't influence 'not fun' raids at all. So which is it?

The basic complaint is that the last balance reduced options for comps and made it more restrictive in play if you want to maintain performance.

Compositions are based around boss mechanics and game design. I'm not even sure how you can suggest otherwise.

... good thing I have not ONCE so far suggested that compositions aren't based around game mechanics /shrug

Player performance very often plays less a role in meta comps designed by high skill raid guilds because all their players are top tier and as such the composition (which often get mirrored by the general community for lack of better understanding) are based around boss mechanics.

The complaint of TC as such makes sense, the balance team balances without the content in mind but simply with results say based on boon out put.

The idea that class skills are balanced around content doesn’t make sense, ever; there is much more constancy with classes and their abilities than there is with content and the mechanics that govern them. Also, it's hard enough for devs to just balance classes let alone ensure that whatever that balance is, it further restricted by the imaginations of content devs to ensure players subjective sense of what is 'fun' is placated to.

Sure, maybe there is too much favour towards stacking … and the solution to that shouldn’t be for the balance team to provide players with comps that allow them to ignore those mechanics like was happening with the absolutely and ridiculously broken Chrono boon giving, sharing AND duration increase builds.

For one thing... stacking IS a mechanic, is THE mechanic in mmos since, well, 2 decades now. LoS pull and stacking. Other mmos managed buffing, stacking and mechanics in raids/dungeons/whatever... why does Anet have such a hard time at it? My guess, because they dont actually have a set of groundrules and just adjust here and there to get a desired endresult, with rather not much success tbh.

Another thing, this thread is in NO way a "oh no chrono got nerfed"-whine thread, no matter how you and others are (forcibly) trying to make it into one. This thread is about how Anet went and changed chrono - the only "buffer" build in gw2 - without fixing the alternative comps first. This could have been prevented easily by just talking to the raids/fractals devs. Theres quite a lot of things wrong with the balance atm in regards to raids and fractals. Most caused by the balance team trying to promote a playstyle that just doesnt work properly.

a) Aegis vs protection: some raid encounters mechanics do so much dmg, that even if you execute them correctly, you can still end up loosing 70%+ of your life if you dont have protection, in case of dhuum bombs for example, max range detonated bomb does way too much dmg without protection... or without protection most dps classes cant run out and use the button without dieing on the way back. So this is a very important boon on some encounters, way more important than for example aegis. But guess what firebrand shits out in higher quantity? Yep. Aegis. For protection you need a dedicated weapon and/or shout. And then you need boon duration for it. Aegis on the other hand you really do NOT need every 10 seconds. Thats just way overkill, except for dh. And even there you could argue it is overkill, because it blows the virtues traitline dmg out of proportions.

b) Aegis+Stability vs vigor: Firebrand with its aegis and stability spam teaches players not to dodge. Thats even more exacerbated by the fact that if you lack vigor, you tend to dodge less anyway. Yes, this is a dmg increase, but no its not "skillful" in any way, and it generates a lazy playstyle.

c) Stacking vs mechanics: Quite obvious. Balance team wants us to stack and never leave the stack, punishes us severly for mechanics that make us leave the stack. Raid team wants us to do mechanics. Now what is it?

d) Balance team pushes for 4-5 supporter specs in raids, 2-3 supporter in fractals. While I dont have anything against this, just adding 1 healscrapper to gorseval for example already lets you totally ignore the cc retal phase. It lets you ignore and facetank mechanics that you SHOULD work around instead. Is that how we are now supposed to raid/do fractals? By just facetanking everything because skill isnt rewarded anymore, even punished? I really dont think thats what the devs had in mind when designing raids/fractals. Yes, more supporter, more hybrids make instanced content easier. Every mmo veteran could have told Anet that,

e) Prestacking in fractals at singularity. That this is even a thing, and has been a thing now for months is a disgrace, and just shows how the balance team just plainly ignores 5 man content. You cant atm really remove it though, because immediately people would notice how badly unbalanced the balance is in regards to boons.

I could go on, but its already a wall of text.. so.. let me just finish with one more notice to all those thinking that this thread is me whining about not being able to complete raids/fractals/whatever because I lost my OP chrono. I consider fb/ren comp in many ways superior to chrono, especially on every boss that you can go full offense on, like gorseval, sabetha, xera, cairn. It however falls far behind druid/chrono comp as soon as you need defense. Because fb/ren comp isnt well rounded. Druid/chrono comp was - and still is, they just added punishments in for everyone that is stupid enough... Im sorry... is good enough... to do mechanics. And to add insult to injury, you can adapt the comp to facetank everything, turning pretty much every boss into a weekly yawnfest. So no, Im not mad about not being able to do raids anymore. Im mad because the balance was incomplete, badly done and totally ignored raids/fractals design.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

for a lot of people it isn´t about completing the content anymore, if you are just in for the loot, maybe it isn´t the right content for you anyway. you can pretty much kill almost every boss with 10 necros autoatacking, but would that be fun? and thats the problem right now, you can either choose to play without optimal boons which is super akward and feels cluncky or play a super strict settup that make anoying (yes there are no hard mechanics, just anoying ones) mechanics even more anoying. missing out alc/quickness especially when you simply went for deleting a bomb at sabetha is the wort feeling ever. doing mechanics should be rewarding not punishing for your own gameplay expierience,

If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete? Seems to me we should stick to the thread for now.

The idea that the raid design team needs to talk to the class balance team so that raids are not 'impossible' to complete makes no sense. Anet knows what mechanics are possible to do in a raid, they know by what margins teams are successful at completing them. Stats they have will tell them what is reasonable for class changes and what isn't. The idea that these two groups talk to 'hard-engineer' raids is unnecessary and not based on what is happening in the game.

Did you read op? I don't see the word difficult. Raids are still easy, but a bit more annoying or unfun you could say.

yes I read it ... he was complaining about stacking mechanics punishing people for not stacking. That's a performance-based complaint ... even if the OP wants us to think it's not.

It is not, it actually is both a performance and boss mechanic based complaint... even if you want us to think it's not.

Convince yourself whatever you will. If it's NOT a performance based discussion, why the hell would the OP suggest that the raid content devs talk to the balance team? That makes no sense either; balance team doesn't influence 'not fun' raids at all. So which is it?

The basic complaint is that the last balance reduced options for comps and made it more restrictive in play if you want to maintain performance.

Compositions are based around boss mechanics and game design. I'm not even sure how you can suggest otherwise.

... good thing I have not ONCE so far suggested that compositions aren't based around game mechanics /shrug

Player performance very often plays less a role in meta comps designed by high skill raid guilds because all their players are top tier and as such the composition (which often get mirrored by the general community for lack of better understanding) are based around boss mechanics.

The complaint of TC as such makes sense, the balance team balances without the content in mind but simply with results say based on boon out put.

The idea that class skills are balanced around content doesn’t make sense, ever;

There have been times I thought, maybe you're not a troll. But this statement made it clear for me. So I'm gonna ignore future posts coming from you.

By your logic, everything should be and is balanced around flavour and look and thematic. But then gravedigger should hit downed players for 100% of their Downstate health, because it literally says, that it's digging their grave.Or meteor shower doing 50k dmg per meteor. I mean, it's a freaking meteor shower, that would do huge dmg in real world.Oh did i mention backstab, onehitting everyone, except heavy armor classes?

Especially in MMOs you need to balance skills around content.

there is much more constancy with classes and their abilities than there is with content and the mechanics that govern them. Also, it's hard enough for devs to just balance classes let alone ensure that whatever that balance is, it further restricted by the imaginations of content devs to ensure players subjective sense of what is 'fun' is placated to.

Sure, maybe there is too much favour towards stacking … and the solution to that shouldn’t be for the balance team to provide players with comps that allow them to ignore those mechanics like was happening with the absolutely and ridiculously broken Chrono boon giving, sharing AND duration increase builds.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The idea that class skills are balanced around content doesn’t make sense, ever;And yet they
are
balanced that way. They always were (although in the beginning it was mostly SPvP content they were balanced around). And there were at least a few case of builds getting nerfed in all modes because they happened to be overperforming in one single situation (like that thief build that got hit with a nerfbat because someone used it to solo Sloth - even if it took him few hours). And guardian staff got first nerfed and completely redone later on only because some people were using it to attack through gates in WvW.

But yeah, classes aren't balanced around content. Not at all [/sarcasm]

The scope of what we are talking about here is instanced group content, and that is what my statement was referring to; if you want to change the goal posts in the discussion to include WvW to be semantic, then I get a chance to clarify. Anet isn't going to continue to allow a situation where people access OP'ed specs to trivialize game mechanics and content in PVE, even if it means it changes the 'fun' for a portion of the players.But that's not what they are changing. All they do is impacting the group composition - the end result is exactly the same (although less fun to play, it is exactly as trivial as before).

Your examples are what appears to be fixing unintended features , not balancing because of performanceThere were a ton of skills that were balanced for all modes due to their performance in one single mode. Anet's started splitting skills only recently, and even then they still don't split enough.If you want a better example though, it would be the
previous
SoI change where its effect got cut by half, but extended to 10 players. That was balance done exactly around raids. It had no sense at all for Fractals for example, as it assumed a second group with another chrono, which in 5-man content is not going to happen obviously.There you have it - a gamewide balance change done because of a performance in a very specific and niche content. Although you will probably think of a reason why that one doesn't count either.

@"Aldath.1275" said:Fault of the game design as a whole if in order to be successful you need a class whose only purpose is to spit out endless boons then.If the game is clunky without boons, it isn't the fault of the class.Exactly. If it's the core mechanics, not class ones at fault, change core mechanics instead of trying to "fix" the issue by nerfing classes.
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Epidemic nerf because of raids.Sand Shade nerf due to WvW.Perma Stealth thief nerfed after Sloth was soloed despite being complained about for years in the WvW community.Gutting "lootstick" because of WvW.Keeping Necromancer in a terrible state in PvE for years due to how oppressive the class was and is in PvP and WvW.Nerfing ride the Lightning because of PvP.

Sure, Anet doesn't balance around content.

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@Aldath.1275 said:Fault of the game design as a whole if in order to be successful you need a class whose only purpose is to spit out endless boons then.If the game is clunky without boons, it isn't the fault of the class.

I'm not 100% sure I understand you ^^

In general the problem is the game is an constant shift since it is released. The game has this weird feature were it is between an action MMO and an MMO in wow style with tab targeting and group boon/buff mechanic. This is the result of Arena Net trying to be different some features are nice and innovative as an result like the looting system or the progression system others are just ugly and counter intuitive.

It is just so with each expansion the shift in the direction of an action MMO got bigger first you needed more and more doge during a boss fight then you had also less and less possibilities to stack. First this change came in raids and then later with the new fractals and the once which got an overwork.

Resulting in the need for the chrono to wing it sometimes with SoI and the re sharing of the boons. Now we try re cast the boons as often as possible with FB + rev or stack forcefully and let another chrono extend the duration.

So far I can say people who don't accept this are stuck in 2012 before raids because the content evolved in this direction there is no way back.

And about raids being easy through time this is also not really this way through when you run content over and over its becomes easy because you optimize you movement and skills. I think Anet has really a bad idea what happens there.

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@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@Aldath.1275 said:Fault of the game design as a whole if in order to be successful you need a class whose only purpose is to spit out endless boons then.If the game is clunky without boons, it isn't the fault of the class.

I'm not 100% sure I understand you ^^

In general the problem is the game is an constant shift since it is released. The game has this weird feature were it is between an action MMO and an MMO in wow style with tab targeting and group boon/buff mechanic. This is the result of Arena Net trying to be different some features are nice and innovative as an result like the looting system or the progression system others are just ugly and counter intuitive.

It is just so with each expansion the shift in the direction of an action MMO got bigger first you needed more and more doge during a boss fight then you had also less and less possibilities to stack. First this change came in raids and then later with the new fractals and the once which got an overwork.

Resulting in the need for the chrono to wing it sometimes with SoI and the re sharing of the boons. Now we try re cast the boons as often as possible with FB + rev or stack forcefully and let another chrono extend the duration.

So far I can say people who don't accept this are stuck in 2012 before raids because the content evolved in this direction there is no way back.

And about raids being easy through time this is also not really this way through when you run content over and over its becomes easy because you optimize you movement and skills. I think Anet has really a bad idea what happens there.

All we need is anet to finally fix soi its still broken

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Raids aren't hard, that's why most of the people that raid consistently do so to improve their personal performance (i.e parsing DPS/uptimes) - along with social reasons too of course - it's not about the clear, it's about being efficient WHILE getting your clear. I've raided for like 3 months and I'm bored of Wing 1-4 already.

Contrary to what someone on page 1 posted, GW2 is NOT TERA. In action MMOs, with skill you can literally dodge like 99% of boss attacks (essentially only the ones the devs want you to eat intentionally as fight mechanics). There is a lot of random damage/CC in this game, like Dhuum bombs doing damage regardless of where you are in the arena or random bandits kicking you around on Sabetha. This makes it akin to WoW where you bring buffs to mitigate these.

I don't play a Mesmer yet, but it's clear to me the thread is split into two groups of people: the ones who are putting in the effort into explaining their point of view, in particular Yasi, and the other group who are just in here going "ha, not my problem, this is great" and acting like smug little hipsters. It's actually disgusting. Get off your high horse, GW2 isn't known as the most casual MMO for nothing.

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@Yasi.9065 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

for a lot of people it isn´t about completing the content anymore, if you are just in for the loot, maybe it isn´t the right content for you anyway. you can pretty much kill almost every boss with 10 necros autoatacking, but would that be fun? and thats the problem right now, you can either choose to play without optimal boons which is super akward and feels cluncky or play a super strict settup that make anoying (yes there are no hard mechanics, just anoying ones) mechanics even more anoying. missing out alc/quickness especially when you simply went for deleting a bomb at sabetha is the wort feeling ever. doing mechanics should be rewarding not punishing for your own gameplay expierience,

If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete? Seems to me we should stick to the thread for now.

The idea that the raid design team needs to talk to the class balance team so that raids are not 'impossible' to complete makes no sense. Anet knows what mechanics are possible to do in a raid, they know by what margins teams are successful at completing them. Stats they have will tell them what is reasonable for class changes and what isn't. The idea that these two groups talk to 'hard-engineer' raids is unnecessary and not based on what is happening in the game.

Did you read op? I don't see the word difficult. Raids are still easy, but a bit more annoying or unfun you could say.

yes I read it ... he was complaining about stacking mechanics punishing people for not stacking. That's a performance-based complaint ... even if the OP wants us to think it's not.

It is not, it actually is both a performance and boss mechanic based complaint... even if you want us to think it's not.

Convince yourself whatever you will. If it's NOT a performance based discussion, why the hell would the OP suggest that the raid content devs talk to the balance team? That makes no sense either; balance team doesn't influence 'not fun' raids at all. So which is it?

The basic complaint is that the last balance reduced options for comps and made it more restrictive in play if you want to maintain performance.

Compositions are based around boss mechanics and game design. I'm not even sure how you can suggest otherwise.

... good thing I have not ONCE so far suggested that compositions aren't based around game mechanics /shrug

Player performance very often plays less a role in meta comps designed by high skill raid guilds because all their players are top tier and as such the composition (which often get mirrored by the general community for lack of better understanding) are based around boss mechanics.

The complaint of TC as such makes sense, the balance team balances without the content in mind but simply with results say based on boon out put.

The idea that class skills are balanced around content doesn’t make sense, ever; there is much more constancy with classes and their abilities than there is with content and the mechanics that govern them. Also, it's hard enough for devs to just balance classes let alone ensure that whatever that balance is, it further restricted by the imaginations of content devs to ensure players subjective sense of what is 'fun' is placated to.

Sure, maybe there is too much favour towards stacking … and the solution to that shouldn’t be for the balance team to provide players with comps that allow them to ignore those mechanics like was happening with the absolutely and ridiculously broken Chrono boon giving, sharing AND duration increase builds.

For one thing... stacking IS a mechanic, is THE mechanic in mmos since, well, 2 decades now. LoS pull and stacking. Other mmos managed buffing, stacking and mechanics in raids/dungeons/whatever... why does Anet have such a hard time at it? My guess, because they dont actually have a set of groundrules and just adjust here and there to get a desired endresult, with rather not much success tbh.

I agree (except for the not much success part); it stems from Anet’s decision to avoid having a hardcoded structure for comps, like holy trinity. Holy trinity MMOs require certain spots filled with certain abilities to ensure success; GW2 has a much more relaxed approach. I believe as a consequence, when Anet goes to change something on a class, they are MUCH less restricted by content to make class changes because there isn’t a requirement for that class to fill a spot for group content. As a result, class balance and group content can be developed much more independently and if done with care, not lead to a situation where content isn’t ‘solvable’. Someone suggested that content and balance groups need to talk to each other to fix this ‘problem’ but that just forces a dependence between the two that isn’t necessary. In otherwords, the suggestion is that Anet revert to a hardcoded structure for comps. I works for other games but if Anet doesn't stays true to this selling point of the game, it would be disasterous IMO.

As it stands, Raid content team makes no requirement for certain classes in content and balance team sees no reason to constrain their ideas because of content … and we know this works. I see no reason to force the interaction, especially if the reason to do so is something as subjective as ‘fun’. It makes no sense to ever just make changes because of that because ‘fun’ isn’t a quantifiable metric that Anet can see if they are making progress towards. If rewards were dependent on the margin of success, you would have a point about fixing other comps before breaking others; If that interaction existed, balance would be WAY more complicated. … but it doesn’t. This leads me to this hypothesis:

A general sense of performance balance (between classes, comps, efforts, etc … ) is not needed in a game where we don’t have rewards linked to success margins; this results in why the balance team doesn’t need to refer to content team and finally, why we can continue to enjoy a ‘relaxed’ requirements approach to playing comps and builds we want and still be successful in group instances. It’s all linked to that no holy trinity decision. Most people wave it aside as a frivolous feature but it does have real and serious implications to how the game works, especially for people that are so engrained with the holy trinity model, that anything outside it seems like ‘failure’.

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@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@"Jeknar.6184" said:If bosses are dying without enraging, why are we complaining?

Because bosses need to die in optimal time with at least half of timer left as halved kill time means half as much mechanics and lot faster runs in general. Therefore squads should be optimized for maximal dps and minimal support (to very riskful degree). And no, potential wipes don't count. Wiping twice on most bosses is still faster than taking extra support 'cause extra support means getting close to enrage and soooo much more mechanics that wipe would happen inevitably anyway 'cause someone would mess up a mechanic for sure if kills take that long and even extra support wouldn't help it. Extra dps would've saved from that happening. And ofc we're not talking about anything that does 31k or less on golem, those builds aren't meta and risk a wipe with their lower dps. We need something with 34k+ dps since we can cover golem-like conditions on our runs with 100% certainty, especially when pugging.

^short version of the stuff Kitty hears when people explain the mandatoryness of metabuilds and strats in every situation.

Yeah, I'll never understand that line of thinking... I remember one of my old guilds had the habit of stacking Scourges on Vale Guardian and ignore greens because "going for green was a dps loss". Nevermind the people getting downed when the scourges were failing at properly stacking barrier, these clearly aren't dps loss. Nevermind the wipes that could have been avoided if we actually did the greens, those surely weren't a waste of time. And since they only raided for like 3hr/week, I usually would have to pug to complete my runs because we wasted much time on bosses that we could have done faster without ignoring mechanics...

I prefer a approach "The boss died? Good job" instead of complaining that we took more than 1:30 to make Vale Guardian split. Hell, even back in World of Warcraft my raid was such a mess that sometimes we would sometimes finish a boss fight with 2/10 people alive (But it died, so who cares?). Too bad these people didn't stick around after we came to GW2... I could use more people like that to clear this content without going through the headache of having to adapt to metaslaves that are unhappy because the boss died 1min after the world record time.

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