The new balance - a conclusion

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:If bosses are dying without enraging, why are we complaining?

Because bosses need to die in optimal time with at least half of timer left as halved kill time means half as much mechanics and lot faster runs in general. Therefore squads should be optimized for maximal dps and minimal support (to very riskful degree). And no, potential wipes don't count. Wiping twice on most bosses is still faster than taking extra support 'cause extra support means getting close to enrage and soooo much more mechanics that wipe would happen inevitably anyway 'cause someone would mess up a mechanic for sure if kills take that long and even extra support wouldn't help it. Extra dps would've saved from that happening. And ofc we're not talking about anything that does 31k or less on golem, those builds aren't meta and risk a wipe with their lower dps. We need something with 34k+ dps since we can cover golem-like conditions on our runs with 100% certainty, especially when pugging.

^short version of the stuff Kitty hears when people explain the mandatoryness of metabuilds and strats in every situation.

Yeah, I'll never understand that line of thinking... I remember one of my old guilds had the habit of stacking Scourges on Vale Guardian and ignore greens because "going for green was a dps loss". Nevermind the people getting downed when the scourges were failing at properly stacking barrier, these clearly aren't dps loss. Nevermind the wipes that could have been avoided if we actually did the greens, those surely weren't a waste of time. And since they only raided for like 3hr/week, I usually would have to pug to complete my runs because we wasted much time on bosses that we could have done faster without ignoring mechanics...

I prefer a approach "The boss died? Good job" instead of complaining that we took more than 1:30 to make Vale Guardian split. Hell, even back in World of Warcraft my raid was such a mess that sometimes we would sometimes finish a boss fight with 2/10 people alive (But it died, so who cares?). Too bad these people didn't stick around after we came to GW2... I could use more people like that to clear this content without going through the headache of having to adapt to metaslaves that are unhappy because the boss died 1min after the world record time.

I think he/she was sarcastic you can always stray away from the meta to some degree. All raids have just one hardcoded mechanic in common if you fail the enrage timer you die and you fail the enrage timer when you don't do enough dps and you don't do enough dps when you don't get the boons or fail your rota.

The funny thing is if everyone does everything correct e.g you got more then 2 minutes over at the val guard if more then 2 dps classes fail completely you fail the boss.Beginners need a lot of skills to learn to get there like team work, movement, their rota ,boss mechanic and so on and sometimes need to change their gear. Getting all classes together to be able to run is also a challenge on its own.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:If bosses are dying without enraging, why are we complaining?

Because bosses need to die in optimal time with at least half of timer left as halved kill time means half as much mechanics and lot faster runs in general. Therefore squads should be optimized for maximal dps and minimal support (to very riskful degree). And no, potential wipes don't count. Wiping twice on most bosses is still faster than taking extra support 'cause extra support means getting close to enrage and soooo much more mechanics that wipe would happen inevitably anyway 'cause someone would mess up a mechanic for sure if kills take that long and even extra support wouldn't help it. Extra dps would've saved from that happening. And ofc we're not talking about anything that does 31k or less on golem, those builds aren't meta and risk a wipe with their lower dps. We need something with 34k+ dps since we can cover golem-like conditions on our runs with 100% certainty, especially when pugging.

^short version of the stuff Kitty hears when people explain the mandatoryness of metabuilds and strats in every situation.

Yeah, I'll never understand that line of thinking... I remember one of my old guilds had the habit of stacking Scourges on Vale Guardian and ignore greens because "going for green was a dps loss". Nevermind the people getting downed when the scourges were failing at properly stacking barrier, these clearly aren't dps loss. Nevermind the wipes that could have been avoided if we actually did the greens, those surely weren't a waste of time. And since they only raided for like 3hr/week, I usually would have to pug to complete my runs because we wasted much time on bosses that we could have done faster without ignoring mechanics...

I prefer a approach "The boss died? Good job" instead of complaining that we took more than 1:30 to make Vale Guardian split. Hell, even back in World of Warcraft my raid was such a mess that sometimes we would sometimes finish a boss fight with 2/10 people alive (But it died, so who cares?). Too bad these people didn't stick around after we came to GW2... I could use more people like that to clear this content without going through the headache of having to adapt to metaslaves that are unhappy because the boss died 1min after the world record time.

The thing is it only works for a certain extinct. Do you need top 20 meta builds on 80% of the benchmark from Snow Crows. Definitely not, you can do almost all bosses with less. People know that and players are way more lenient nowadays with a dps meter because you can have a look at everyone's performance and most often don't need to care about some classes/builds/players if they are - let's say - below 3-5k dps of others (Just as an example, I've been in a lot of squads where the differences were higher and we managed to succeed in time).But remember: The less dps you bring the more mechanics you have to play. In a perfect environment this is no problem at all. I myself am a player who loves to execute boss mechanics properly (not something like gorse with updrafts etc.) and dodging when needed. I still laugh about dps players and others in fractals/raids crying for stability - "Omg, dps loss, I have to dodge!" Standing in front of a golem - made by chrono & druid - and executing a dps rota learned by heart is not what I call skillful at all even if you reach 100% dps of Snow Crows level.The difference is you don't meet this perfect environment. Neither in your static nor with pugs and since people partially are very bad with a lot of the mechanics you want to minimize the amount of dangerous situation for the squad. So, when having a look at the game there are some options to head for:a) Teach your squad the proper mechanics. This is a longterm goal, a long-lasting one and not really applicable to pugs.b) Furthermore, use the given arsenal of class mechanics to lessen the incoming threat for example due to protection, resistance and aegis. <-- big impact of the balance teamc) A higher, preferably optimized amount of DPS.For c) you could say "Hey, my build is enough to kill the boss within the timer." and you could be absolutely right but if the other 9 players are able to perform on a much higher level than you the question is why on earth should they accept you in their group? They have different standards and that's fine in a team situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about "minimal" differences of 3-5k dps. Almost no pug squad (leader) is moaning when it comes to this specific difference of dps. Not even on bosses like Gorseval where you are expected to bring a high amount of dps because there's literally no threat to the players and you can treat him like a golem.Let's go ahead. The squad let you join and after one boss 2-3 players are leaving. New players are joining and they have a way more mediocre build resulting in an overall dps loss and in the end it'll lead to endless wipes because you don't meet the dps standard to kill the boss.The question is: Where to draw the line. What build is acceptable and where do you stop to let people participate?

And here we are back at the beginning: A lot if not all the pug squads are fine if you can carry your weight which is not extremely hard to achieve. The dps meters made pugging raids more open than strict because people are now able to see what players can accomplish with their classes. Before that you wanted certain classes (not long ago most often just tempests) and lots were excluded leading to players not having the chance to play and proof their abilities.One final thought: If you think your dps is not that excellent and you want to pug just pay attention to the lfg requirements. Sometimes it's better to join the low LI group and get the boss done in 1 try and that 1:30 min more or some additional wipes than heading straight into the 500LI+ group that is aiming at a fast full clear.

[Klipso.8653]

Everybody knew chrono was broken for a long time, it's rediculous that when it got fixed every body suddenly forgot how to play

[Vinceman.4572]

@Klipso.8653 said:Everybody knew chrono was broken for a long time, it's rediculous that when it got fixed every body suddenly forgot how to play

Firebrand is broken af at the moment as well. Needs to be fixed/tuned down soon.

[Ahrijlaken.9541]

Firebrand is broken af at the moment as well. Needs to be fixed/tuned down soon.

As a new player guardian, can you explain why Firebrand is broken ? Is about aegis ? ANd the class did get nerf the last patch no ?

[Vinceman.4572]

@Ahrijlaken.9541 said:

Firebrand is broken af at the moment as well. Needs to be fixed/tuned down soon.

As a new player guardian, can you explain why Firebrand is broken ? Is about aegis ? ANd the class did get nerf the last patch no ?

If a class is played above average like scourge and firebrand in WvW it's not because the classes are so much fun to play.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Ahrijlaken.9541 said:

Firebrand is broken af at the moment as well. Needs to be fixed/tuned down soon.

As a new player guardian, can you explain why Firebrand is broken ? Is about aegis ? ANd the class did get nerf the last patch no ?

If a class is played above average like scourge and firebrand in WvW it's not because the classes are so much fun to play.

Yet neither were/are over represented in fractals,dungeons,and raids, which is what people are discussing.

[Yasi.9065]

@Ahrijlaken.9541 said:

Firebrand is broken af at the moment as well. Needs to be fixed/tuned down soon.

As a new player guardian, can you explain why Firebrand is broken ? Is about aegis ? ANd the class did get nerf the last patch no ?

Compared to nerfed chaos chrono firebrand puts out more aegis and the same mount of stability, which is quite a lot. Additionally firebrand can bring either a lot more healing than chrono or a lot more dps.

What chaos chrono had that made it superior was role compression. Chaos chrono was a buffer build that could generate and sustain nearly all boons 100%, making other buffers obsolote. On top of that it brought >2k defiance bar dmg, and is one of the best professions to tank on due to sword skill 2, shield 4 block and the insane amount of stability it can generate on itself. In raids that kind of role compression means that you need less good players or top builds.

Firebrand doesnt have that kind of role compression, so it wont get radically nerfed - at least not on purpose. But there's gonna be some adjustments either to healing / dps output of the respective builds, or the generation of aegis. Removing aegis from healing mantra for example would be such a possible change, and this would impact quickness generation quite a lot. It would mean more boon duration is needed, basically nerfing the quickbrand build by hmm... roughly 5k dps. Or anet could reduce the duration of all aegis skills (maybe only keep retreat as long-lasting aegis) and increase the elite mantra re-charge rate. Thats the kind of changes you have to worry about in gw2, since it seems anet thinks its a form of content to never reach a balanced state.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Ahrijlaken.9541 said:

Firebrand is broken af at the moment as well. Needs to be fixed/tuned down soon.

As a new player guardian, can you explain why Firebrand is broken ? Is about aegis ? ANd the class did get nerf the last patch no ?

If a class is played above average like scourge and firebrand in WvW it's not because the classes are so much fun to play.

Yet neither were/are over represented in fractals,dungeons,and raids, which is what people are discussing.

Give it time. Pugs are slow to adapt.The new stats will put power firebrand+power renegade > chrono in fractals very quickly. The comp is already stronger, and will get even more so with diviner stats.In raids fbs/ren/druid comp needs a bit of adjusting to, but imo its especially for pugs very strong due to above mentioned aegis output of firebrands, the kalla summons on renegade and spirits+might generation of druid.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Yasi.9065 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Ahrijlaken.9541 said:

Firebrand is broken af at the moment as well. Needs to be fixed/tuned down soon.

As a new player guardian, can you explain why Firebrand is broken ? Is about aegis ? ANd the class did get nerf the last patch no ?

If a class is played above average like scourge and firebrand in WvW it's not because the classes are so much fun to play.

Yet neither were/are over represented in fractals,dungeons,and raids, which is what people are discussing.

Give it time. Pugs are slow to adapt.The new stats will put power firebrand+power renegade > chrono in fractals very quickly. The comp is already stronger, and will get even more so with diviner stats.In raids fbs/ren/druid comp needs a bit of adjusting to, but imo its especially for pugs very strong due to above mentioned aegis output of firebrands, the kalla summons on renegade and spirits+might generation of druid.

As long as there is representation of all 3 then that is fine. There is more room for a mix of 2/3 , gear build dependant, rather than just take Chrono and be done. Also gives Anet more room to play with when it comes to boon support roles now and in the future which I am happy with. The more comps and variety enabled the better.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Ahrijlaken.9541 said:

Firebrand is broken af at the moment as well. Needs to be fixed/tuned down soon.

As a new player guardian, can you explain why Firebrand is broken ? Is about aegis ? ANd the class did get nerf the last patch no ?

If a class is played above average like scourge and firebrand in WvW it's not because the classes are so much fun to play.

Yet neither were/are over represented in fractals,dungeons,and raids, which is what people are discussing.

Give it time. Pugs are slow to adapt.The new stats will put power firebrand+power renegade > chrono in fractals very quickly. The comp is already stronger, and will get even more so with diviner stats.In raids fbs/ren/druid comp needs a bit of adjusting to, but imo its especially for pugs very strong due to above mentioned aegis output of firebrands, the kalla summons on renegade and spirits+might generation of druid.

As long as there is representation of all 3 then that is fine. There is more room for a mix of 2/3 , gear build dependant, rather than just take Chrono and be done. Also gives Anet more room to play with when it comes to boon support roles now and in the future which I am happy with. The more comps and variety enabled the better.

While I agree that more variety is nice, the bar for balance is not if Firebrand is getting taken along chrono or if there is more viable builds.

It's how powerful the build is overall and it has been way over-represented in WvW for a while now (actually guardian as a whole ever since launch). The reason why guardian works so well in WvW is similar as to why chrono lends its self to role compression in pve, the core design of the class is very strong in said game mode.

The other thing is, people are very reluctant to switch metas right now (more so than usual) when a new balance patch is announced and the holidays are taking up a lot of time.

Is Firebrand as overpowered in PvE group content as chrono at its peak? No.Is Firebrand overpowered in WvW? Ever since it was introduced with PoF.Is Firebrand overpowered in general PvE? Yes, but no one cares and it doesn't matter since there is no balance around things beside group content.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Ahrijlaken.9541 said:

Firebrand is broken af at the moment as well. Needs to be fixed/tuned down soon.

As a new player guardian, can you explain why Firebrand is broken ? Is about aegis ? ANd the class did get nerf the last patch no ?

If a class is played above average like scourge and firebrand in WvW it's not because the classes are so much fun to play.

Yet neither were/are over represented in fractals,dungeons,and raids, which is what people are discussing.The opposite is also true - chronos were definitely not overrepresented anywhere outside raids/fractals. if one niche content is enough to get a class nerfed, firebrand and wvw definitely do qualify. If anything, fb domination in WvW is much greater than that of pre-nerf chrono in raids.