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1 shot thief?


Zakuchi.8120

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WvW is different from PvP. In WvW, players can use food and utility items that can help them deal more damage than what you would expect in PvP. These thieves you claim to do 10k cloak and dagger and 22k backstabs are clearly running full berserker gear with scholar runes and DPS food and utily items. It's one of the reasons why Deadeye is hated in WvW far more than in PvP.

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@Zakuchi.8120 said:i thought Anet was moving away from these 1 shot builds, but enlighten me on how a thief can do 10k cloak and dagger into 22k backstab? (in wvw)

I am guilty of a build close that too but I do have toughness ruins and marauder armor set just in case I miss or mess up. LOL. Anyways, only way to bring back Dual Daggers, especially with all these nerfs. My advice is keep your distance and avoid when he proc Assassin's Signet and dodge his corresponding 5 attacks. Because after that he doesn't have much utilities and super low hp(Sitting duck). Condi and slow/stun movements is the weakness.

Thus my counter to that, spellbreaker, scourge and etc is to fake burst and pressure until either half to low hp and unleash the steal+assassin signet+cloak and dagger+backstab burst.

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@Hoodie.1045 said:WvW is different from PvP. In WvW, players can use food and utility items that can help them deal more damage than what you would expect in PvP. These thieves you claim to do 10k cloak and dagger and 22k backstabs are clearly running full berserker gear with scholar runes and DPS food and utily items. It's one of the reasons why Deadeye is hated in WvW far more than in PvP.

DE isn't going to be using D/D though.

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@Zakuchi.8120 said:i thought Anet was moving away from these 1 shot builds, but enlighten me on how a thief can do 10k cloak and dagger into 22k backstab? (in wvw)

As you described, that’s not a 1 shot build since it took at the very minimum 2 separate attacks Skills.. it’s a high burst Build with every single trait and stat point going solely into power which means the Thief will most likely be at 11k Hp and no armor, and it now requires even more setup since Lead Attacks no longer works out OOC. There is also counterplay since they would have had to engage while visible and the cast times between both CnD and BS which if you got hit by CnD you should have done something to mitigate the BS (multiple options available ie move over to the left or through them or dodge) which means they are at a huge disadvantage since CnD stealth is hilariously short and if they miss the BS it goes on CD and they will be out of stealth before they can attempt to BS again.

Also every class has a high burst burst in WvW, and some are actually one shot builds.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Zakuchi.8120" said:i thought Anet was moving away from these 1 shot builds, but enlighten me on how a thief can do 10k cloak and dagger into 22k backstab? (in wvw)

If you run a glass cannon build, expect to shatter like glass.

Besides, that's not the definition of a "1 shot build".

Ah so its fine for thief to run full damage, but the rest should not. Got it.

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@aspirine.6852 said:

@"Zakuchi.8120" said:i thought Anet was moving away from these 1 shot builds, but enlighten me on how a thief can do 10k cloak and dagger into 22k backstab? (in wvw)

If you run a glass cannon build, expect to shatter like glass.

Besides, that's not the definition of a "1 shot build".

Ah so its fine for thief to run full damage, but the rest should not. Got it.

If you can live with the downsides of full glass everyone can go full damage, that‘s up to you.

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@aspirine.6852 said:

@"Zakuchi.8120" said:i thought Anet was moving away from these 1 shot builds, but enlighten me on how a thief can do 10k cloak and dagger into 22k backstab? (in wvw)

If you run a glass cannon build, expect to shatter like glass.

Besides, that's not the definition of a "1 shot build".

Ah so its fine for thief to run full damage, but the rest should not. Got it.

a thief that is running full dmg will die as quick as most other professions doing the same.

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@Derenaya.3479 said:

@Derenaya.3479 said:If you can live with the downsides of full glass everyone can go full damage, that‘s up to you.And if you don't want to live with downsides of full glass . . . go thief :p

Well deadeye yes, that‘s true (for WvW at least).

not really. if you play full glass deadeye you will die quickly. but full glass deadeye is overkill so you can be not full glass and still hit hard.

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@Zakuchi.8120 said:i thought Anet was moving away from these 1 shot builds, but enlighten me on how a thief can do 10k cloak and dagger into 22k backstab? (in wvw)

I guess since I'm basically the D/D Assassin's Signet spokesperson I'll provide some insight.

It comes from playing glass using core-game gear with no defensive trait lines, no passives, and either no dedicated condi cleanse, no stunbreak, or no other miscellaneous utility. DA/CS/Tr with Assassin's Signet and full damage traits all the way from the DA adept to Tr GM. That or CS/Tr(orDA)/DE but it's kinda meh without the mobility from steal.

Zerk+Valk combo for gear - marauder loses way too much power and ferocity. With valk you lose damage from food and are required to take HK over NQ also cutting damage pretty drastically, but you may survive. For consistent 20k+ full berserker gear is the only available option. Force + Impact sigils (only on core thief as Meld > BV) to scale harder. Fire/Air is stronger but on-crit passives are lame and will cost the per-skill damage.

I suggest you try the build. Played poorly it basically dies to everything; played moderately it dies to anything but noobs or people who don't see you and have bad reflexes; played well it's mean and can catch the average player not expecting the damage off guard and may be playable into some good players, but as soon as they know it's coming it usually just loses any given fight it tries to partake in because it has no means of negating incoming threats which good players will be able to land.

To be honest, the damage is actually kind of average if not below average compared to what many other professions are capable of in a similar amount of time and with a similar amount of investment in their build.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Zakuchi.8120 said:i thought Anet was moving away from these 1 shot builds, but enlighten me on how a thief can do 10k cloak and dagger into 22k backstab? (in wvw)

I guess since I'm basically the D/D Assassin's Signet spokesperson I'll provide some insight.

It comes from playing glass using core-game gear with no defensive trait lines, no passives, and either no dedicated condi cleanse, no stunbreak, or no other miscellaneous utility. DA/CS/Tr with Assassin's Signet and full damage traits all the way from the DA adept to Tr GM. That or CS/Tr(orDA)/DE but it's kinda meh without the mobility from steal.

Zerk+Valk combo for gear - marauder loses way too much power and ferocity. With valk you lose damage from food and are required to take HK over NQ also cutting damage pretty drastically, but you may survive. For consistent 20k+ full berserker gear is the only available option. Force + Impact sigils (only on core thief as Meld > BV) to scale harder. Fire/Air is stronger but on-crit passives are lame and will cost the per-skill damage.

I suggest you try the build. Played poorly it basically dies to everything; played moderately it dies to anything but noobs or people who don't see you and have bad reflexes; played well it's mean and can catch the average player not expecting the damage off guard and may be playable into some good players, but as soon as they know it's coming it usually just loses any given fight it tries to partake in because it has no means of negating incoming threats which good players will be able to land.

To be honest, the damage is actually kind of average if not below average compared to what many other professions are capable of in a similar amount of time and with a similar amount of investment in their build.

I thought they changed the signet build, no more might from signet use? No reason to not have a stunbreak now.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Zakuchi.8120 said:i thought Anet was moving away from these 1 shot builds, but enlighten me on how a thief can do 10k cloak and dagger into 22k backstab? (in wvw)

I guess since I'm basically the D/D Assassin's Signet spokesperson I'll provide some insight.

It comes from playing glass using core-game gear with no defensive trait lines, no passives, and either no dedicated condi cleanse, no stunbreak, or no other miscellaneous utility. DA/CS/Tr with Assassin's Signet and full damage traits all the way from the DA adept to Tr GM. That or CS/Tr(orDA)/DE but it's kinda meh without the mobility from steal.

Zerk+Valk combo for gear - marauder loses way too much power and ferocity. With valk you lose damage from food and are required to take HK over NQ also cutting damage pretty drastically, but you may survive. For consistent 20k+ full berserker gear is the only available option. Force + Impact sigils (only on core thief as Meld > BV) to scale harder. Fire/Air is stronger but on-crit passives are lame and will cost the per-skill damage.

I suggest you try the build. Played poorly it basically dies to everything; played moderately it dies to anything but noobs or people who don't see you and have bad reflexes; played well it's mean and can catch the average player not expecting the damage off guard and may be playable into some good players, but as soon as they know it's coming it usually just loses any given fight it tries to partake in because it has no means of negating incoming threats which good players will be able to land.

To be honest, the damage is actually kind of average if not below average compared to what many other professions are capable of in a similar amount of time and with a similar amount of investment in their build.

I thought they changed the signet build, no more might from signet use? No reason to not have a stunbreak now.

Somewhat. They removed the might and took away Assassin's Signet's 15% increased damage modifier in place of giving it a high flat power.What they did was move a huge chunk of damage to SoS active since it applies 10 stacks of vuln now. So combined, the signets are similar to the old effect of activating two.

You can opt out of Infil Signet for Shadowstep, but last I was aware, Improv doesn't reset Shadowstep while Shadow Return is available, making a condi cleanse + stunbreak combination possibly available (mind you, it does become a shared thing so you need to cast wisely), but it also has a higher cooldown and most notably re-increases the gap between you and your foe, while also 100% locking you out of a reset (if I'm wrong on this, let me know). This can be a pro and heavily depends on matchup, but you can't simply just disengage from most of the more dominant roaming builds (like a longbow ranger, mirage, GS warrior, or guardian with JI) with just Shadow Return alone, so sometimes the increased teleport cooldown is just a huge loss. Not to mention, when most people take the nuke from Mug + CnD, they usually pop all defenses and mobility and just try to reset knowing you lack mobility on D/D. Sure you can then disengage, but Shadowstep's cooldown is usually as long or longer than most others' engage/disengage tools, and in the case of longbow soulbeast, it gets the priority for re-engagement on all fronts, and just returns with a one-shot kill on RF regardless of if you teleport out or not.

There are very few matchups where hard disengaging out of response to being hit by something is beneficial when playing D/D considering you need to then burn something else to get back into the fight, and your range options are usually outmatched when taking into account range and damage dealt vs damage taken as % hp. It basically amounts solely to holosmith and power hammer warrior since they'll one-combo-kill you. But realistically speaking, D/D isn't the kit that's killing a holo; it has way too much burst damage negation to make optimizing around utilities worthwhile, and hammer warrior isn't exactly something encountered often. Better off just trying to bait these moves and knowing to dodge them.

Big numbers are still available without SoS as well, but then you start getting into territory where you have no bonus movespeed options outside of 50% uptime (at best) on ToTC. This is a pretty big deal when you live and die by being able to stick to your target to land CnD for both your damage and defense, and also when you have no OOC stealth to roam safer or simply just to avoid being pressured; if you do not land CnD when you need to, you die or waste 5 initiative - Anyone with permaswiftness can just engage on you and you have no answers either. In a lot of cases when playing aggressively, SoS isn't worth burning at the start of a fight for the opening burst, but rather used instead after they use their immunities/defenses/etc. since Mug/CnD damage will usually trigger some kind of passive or response from the enemy as it is, negating the boosted backstab and also timing out your swiftness from ToTC leaving you with downtime where you can't mantain aggression. Again, also depending on matchups, something like a mesmer, spellbreaker, or another thief can also just steal your swiftness at the onset of the fight and render you useless and unable to even hit a CnD until that full 20s when Steal becomes available again, so I find myself using SoS most-effectively for its blind in order to negate such CC or the subsequent lethal damage in the first place, since it has absolutely zero cast time and can foil multiple targets' coordination efforts.

Maybe it's just because I have so much experience with the setup, but while D/D is playable (barely) without going for a huge OHKO build with signets, I don't think it's worth playing outside of the signets when playing D/D as a OHKO burst build featured around huge critical hits (assuming Assassin's Signet is part of that), just because I think the loss of the one utility slot to fill a lot of the gaps in the burst build due to Assassin's Signet is absolutely massive, and most of the utilities do not solve these weaknesses except in matchup-specific ways.

If DB was a movement skill, this whole conversation ends - Shadowstep and RFI 100% become the way to play the kit since it would then have a reliable engage tool.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Zakuchi.8120 said:i thought Anet was moving away from these 1 shot builds, but enlighten me on how a thief can do 10k cloak and dagger into 22k backstab? (in wvw)

I guess since I'm basically the D/D Assassin's Signet spokesperson I'll provide some insight.

It comes from playing glass using core-game gear with no defensive trait lines, no passives, and either no dedicated condi cleanse, no stunbreak, or no other miscellaneous utility. DA/CS/Tr with Assassin's Signet and full damage traits all the way from the DA adept to Tr GM. That or CS/Tr(orDA)/DE but it's kinda meh without the mobility from steal.

Zerk+Valk combo for gear - marauder loses way too much power and ferocity. With valk you lose damage from food and are required to take HK over NQ also cutting damage pretty drastically, but you may survive. For consistent 20k+ full berserker gear is the only available option. Force + Impact sigils (only on core thief as Meld > BV) to scale harder. Fire/Air is stronger but on-crit passives are lame and will cost the per-skill damage.

I suggest you try the build. Played poorly it basically dies to everything; played moderately it dies to anything but noobs or people who don't see you and have bad reflexes; played well it's mean and can catch the average player not expecting the damage off guard and may be playable into some good players, but as soon as they know it's coming it usually just loses any given fight it tries to partake in because it has no means of negating incoming threats which good players will be able to land.

To be honest, the damage is actually kind of average if not below average compared to what many other professions are capable of in a similar amount of time and with a similar amount of investment in their build.

I thought they changed the signet build, no more might from signet use? No reason to not have a stunbreak now.

Somewhat. They removed the might and took away Assassin's Signet's 15% increased damage modifier in place of giving it a high flat power.What they did was move a huge chunk of damage to SoS active since it applies 10 stacks of vuln now. So combined, the signets are similar to the old effect of activating two.

You can opt out of Infil Signet for Shadowstep, but last I was aware, Improv doesn't reset Shadowstep while Shadow Return is available, making a condi cleanse + stunbreak combination possibly available (mind you, it does become a shared thing so you need to cast wisely), but it also has a higher cooldown and most notably re-increases the gap between you and your foe, while also 100% locking you out of a reset (if I'm wrong on this, let me know). This can be a pro and heavily depends on matchup, but you can't simply just disengage from most of the more dominant roaming builds (like a longbow ranger, mirage, GS warrior, or guardian with JI) with just Shadow Return alone, so sometimes the increased teleport cooldown is just a huge loss. Not to mention, when most people take the nuke from Mug + CnD, they usually pop all defenses and mobility and just try to reset knowing you lack mobility on D/D. Sure you can then disengage, but Shadowstep's cooldown is usually as long or longer than most others' engage/disengage tools, and in the case of longbow soulbeast, it gets the priority for re-engagement on all fronts, and just returns with a one-shot kill on RF regardless of if you teleport out or not.

There are very few matchups where hard disengaging out of response to being hit by something is beneficial when playing D/D considering you need to then burn something else to get back into the fight, and your range options are usually outmatched when taking into account range and damage dealt vs damage taken as % hp. It basically amounts solely to holosmith and power hammer warrior since they'll one-combo-kill you. But realistically speaking, D/D isn't the kit that's killing a holo; it has way too much burst damage negation to make optimizing around utilities worthwhile, and hammer warrior isn't exactly something encountered often. Better off just trying to bait these moves and knowing to dodge them.

Big numbers are still available without SoS as well, but then you start getting into territory where you have no bonus movespeed options outside of 50% uptime (at best) on ToTC. This is a pretty big deal when you live and die by being able to stick to your target to land CnD for both your damage and defense, and also when you have no OOC stealth to roam safer or simply just to avoid being pressured; if you do not land CnD when you need to, you die or waste 5 initiative - Anyone with permaswiftness can just engage on you and you have no answers either. In a lot of cases when playing aggressively, SoS isn't worth burning at the start of a fight for the opening burst, but rather used instead after they use their immunities/defenses/etc. since Mug/CnD damage will usually trigger some kind of passive or response from the enemy as it is, negating the boosted backstab and also timing out your swiftness from ToTC leaving you with downtime where you can't mantain aggression. Again, also depending on matchups, something like a mesmer, spellbreaker, or another thief can also just steal your swiftness at the onset of the fight and render you useless and unable to even hit a CnD until that full 20s when Steal becomes available again, so I find myself using SoS most-effectively for its blind in order to negate such CC or the subsequent lethal damage in the first place, since it has absolutely zero cast time and can foil multiple targets' coordination efforts.

Maybe it's just because I have so much experience with the setup, but while D/D is playable (barely) without going for a huge OHKO build with signets, I don't think it's worth playing outside of the signets when playing D/D as a OHKO burst build featured around huge critical hits (assuming Assassin's Signet is part of that), just because I think the loss of the one utility slot to fill a lot of the gaps in the burst build due to Assassin's Signet is absolutely massive, and most of the utilities do not solve these weaknesses except in matchup-specific ways.

If DB was a movement skill, this whole conversation ends - Shadowstep and RFI 100% become the way to play the kit since it would then have a reliable engage tool.

Interesting thoughts. Have you played the DE stealth build with D/D? I used that with assassin signet SS and RFI for a while, I found it had some major advantages over D/P considering I was using it as an execution set anyways so I was hardly ever using shadow shot. Death blossom becomes a nice way to build malice when close quarters or revealed (baiting warriors with it is pretty effective) or avoid a hit on a spec that lacks dodges in general. The stolen skills with 5 malice means you're not always forced to go melee for a stealth from cloak and dagger, which made playing around groups much easier. Rifle offers a lot of utility that shortbow lacks, and the range combined with shadowstep makes killing an enemy that survived a backstab much easier. Damage wise, you often don't need cloak and dagger, 20-30k stabs are common with malice buildup. It requires a bit more setup sure, but it has a lot of perks over core D/D for sure.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Zakuchi.8120 said:i thought Anet was moving away from these 1 shot builds, but enlighten me on how a thief can do 10k cloak and dagger into 22k backstab? (in wvw)

I guess since I'm basically the D/D Assassin's Signet spokesperson I'll provide some insight.

It comes from playing glass using core-game gear with no defensive trait lines, no passives, and either no dedicated condi cleanse, no stunbreak, or no other miscellaneous utility. DA/CS/Tr with Assassin's Signet and full damage traits all the way from the DA adept to Tr GM. That or CS/Tr(orDA)/DE but it's kinda meh without the mobility from steal.

Zerk+Valk combo for gear - marauder loses way too much power and ferocity. With valk you lose damage from food and are required to take HK over NQ also cutting damage pretty drastically, but you may survive. For consistent 20k+ full berserker gear is the only available option. Force + Impact sigils (only on core thief as Meld > BV) to scale harder. Fire/Air is stronger but on-crit passives are lame and will cost the per-skill damage.

I suggest you try the build. Played poorly it basically dies to everything; played moderately it dies to anything but noobs or people who don't see you and have bad reflexes; played well it's mean and can catch the average player not expecting the damage off guard and may be playable into some good players, but as soon as they know it's coming it usually just loses any given fight it tries to partake in because it has no means of negating incoming threats which good players will be able to land.

To be honest, the damage is actually kind of average if not below average compared to what many other professions are capable of in a similar amount of time and with a similar amount of investment in their build.

I thought they changed the signet build, no more might from signet use? No reason to not have a stunbreak now.

Somewhat. They removed the might and took away Assassin's Signet's 15% increased damage modifier in place of giving it a high flat power.What they did was move a huge chunk of damage to SoS active since it applies 10 stacks of vuln now. So combined, the signets are similar to the old effect of activating two.

You can opt out of Infil Signet for Shadowstep, but last I was aware, Improv doesn't reset Shadowstep while Shadow Return is available, making a condi cleanse + stunbreak combination possibly available (mind you, it does become a shared thing so you need to cast wisely), but it also has a higher cooldown and most notably re-increases the gap between you and your foe, while also 100% locking you out of a reset (if I'm wrong on this, let me know). This can be a pro and heavily depends on matchup, but you can't simply just disengage from most of the more dominant roaming builds (like a longbow ranger, mirage, GS warrior, or guardian with JI) with just Shadow Return alone, so sometimes the increased teleport cooldown is just a huge loss. Not to mention, when most people take the nuke from Mug + CnD, they usually pop all defenses and mobility and just try to reset knowing you lack mobility on D/D. Sure you can then disengage, but Shadowstep's cooldown is usually as long or longer than most others' engage/disengage tools, and in the case of longbow soulbeast, it gets the priority for re-engagement on all fronts, and just returns with a one-shot kill on RF regardless of if you teleport out or not.

There are very few matchups where hard disengaging out of response to being hit by something is beneficial when playing D/D considering you need to then burn something else to get back into the fight, and your range options are usually outmatched when taking into account range and damage dealt vs damage taken as % hp. It basically amounts solely to holosmith and power hammer warrior since they'll one-combo-kill you. But realistically speaking, D/D isn't the kit that's killing a holo; it has way too much burst damage negation to make optimizing around utilities worthwhile, and hammer warrior isn't exactly something encountered often. Better off just trying to bait these moves and knowing to dodge them.

Big numbers are still available without SoS as well, but then you start getting into territory where you have no bonus movespeed options outside of 50% uptime (at best) on ToTC. This is a pretty big deal when you live and die by being able to stick to your target to land CnD for both your damage and defense, and also when you have no OOC stealth to roam safer or simply just to avoid being pressured; if you do not land CnD when you need to, you die or waste 5 initiative - Anyone with permaswiftness can just engage on you and you have no answers either. In a lot of cases when playing aggressively, SoS isn't worth burning at the start of a fight for the opening burst, but rather used instead after they use their immunities/defenses/etc. since Mug/CnD damage will usually trigger some kind of passive or response from the enemy as it is, negating the boosted backstab and also timing out your swiftness from ToTC leaving you with downtime where you can't mantain aggression. Again, also depending on matchups, something like a mesmer, spellbreaker, or another thief can also just steal your swiftness at the onset of the fight and render you useless and unable to even hit a CnD until that full 20s when Steal becomes available again, so I find myself using SoS most-effectively for its blind in order to negate such CC or the subsequent lethal damage in the first place, since it has absolutely zero cast time and can foil multiple targets' coordination efforts.

Maybe it's just because I have so much experience with the setup, but while D/D is playable (barely) without going for a huge OHKO build with signets, I don't think it's worth playing outside of the signets when playing D/D as a OHKO burst build featured around huge critical hits (assuming Assassin's Signet is part of that), just because I think the loss of the one utility slot to fill a lot of the gaps in the burst build due to Assassin's Signet is absolutely massive, and most of the utilities do not solve these weaknesses except in matchup-specific ways.

If DB was a movement skill, this whole conversation ends - Shadowstep and RFI 100% become the way to play the kit since it would then have a reliable engage tool.

Interesting thoughts. Have you played the DE stealth build with D/D? I used that with assassin signet SS and RFI for a while, I found it had some major advantages over D/P considering I was using it as an execution set anyways so I was hardly ever using shadow shot. Death blossom becomes a nice way to build malice when close quarters or revealed (baiting warriors with it is pretty effective) or avoid a hit on a spec that lacks dodges in general. The stolen skills with 5 malice means you're not always forced to go melee for a stealth from cloak and dagger, which made playing around groups much easier. Rifle offers a lot of utility that shortbow lacks, and the range combined with shadowstep makes killing an enemy that survived a backstab much easier. Damage wise, you often don't need cloak and dagger, 20-30k stabs are common with malice buildup. It requires a bit more setup sure, but it has a lot of perks over core D/D for sure.

It my opinion that too many focus on raw damage and in particular when going the DE route to take advantage of Malicious backstab. I feel that the theif going that route has some room to give up damage for some other aspect of a build that can better help with the sets weakness. Just as example while I have not tried it , I am thinking Runes of Speed on a DE build using d/d might work very well as this addresses one of the single largest issues with the set and that engage/disengage.

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@Zakuchi.8120 said:i thought Anet was moving away from these 1 shot builds, but enlighten me on how a thief can do 10k cloak and dagger into 22k backstab? (in wvw)

I guess since I'm basically the D/D Assassin's Signet spokesperson I'll provide some insight.

It comes from playing glass using core-game gear with no defensive trait lines, no passives, and either no dedicated condi cleanse, no stunbreak, or no other miscellaneous utility. DA/CS/Tr with Assassin's Signet and full damage traits all the way from the DA adept to Tr GM. That or CS/Tr(orDA)/DE but it's kinda meh without the mobility from steal.

Zerk+Valk combo for gear - marauder loses way too much power and ferocity. With valk you lose damage from food and are required to take HK over NQ also cutting damage pretty drastically, but you may survive. For consistent 20k+ full berserker gear is the only available option. Force + Impact sigils (only on core thief as Meld > BV) to scale harder. Fire/Air is stronger but on-crit passives are lame and will cost the per-skill damage.

I suggest you try the build. Played poorly it basically dies to everything; played moderately it dies to anything but noobs or people who don't see you and have bad reflexes; played well it's mean and can catch the average player not expecting the damage off guard and may be playable into some good players, but as soon as they know it's coming it usually just loses any given fight it tries to partake in because it has no means of negating incoming threats which good players will be able to land.

To be honest, the damage is actually kind of average if not below average compared to what many other professions are capable of in a similar amount of time and with a similar amount of investment in their build.

I thought they changed the signet build, no more might from signet use? No reason to not have a stunbreak now.

Somewhat. They removed the might and took away Assassin's Signet's 15% increased damage modifier in place of giving it a high flat power.What they did was move a huge chunk of damage to SoS active since it applies 10 stacks of vuln now. So combined, the signets are similar to the old effect of activating two.

You can opt out of Infil Signet for Shadowstep, but last I was aware, Improv doesn't reset Shadowstep while Shadow Return is available, making a condi cleanse + stunbreak combination possibly available (mind you, it does become a shared thing so you need to cast wisely), but it also has a higher cooldown and most notably re-increases the gap between you and your foe, while also 100% locking you out of a reset (if I'm wrong on this, let me know). This can be a pro and heavily depends on matchup, but you can't simply just disengage from most of the more dominant roaming builds (like a longbow ranger, mirage, GS warrior, or guardian with JI) with just Shadow Return alone, so sometimes the increased teleport cooldown is just a huge loss. Not to mention, when most people take the nuke from Mug + CnD, they usually pop all defenses and mobility and just try to reset knowing you lack mobility on D/D. Sure you can then disengage, but Shadowstep's cooldown is usually as long or longer than most others' engage/disengage tools, and in the case of longbow soulbeast, it gets the priority for re-engagement on all fronts, and just returns with a one-shot kill on RF regardless of if you teleport out or not.

There are very few matchups where hard disengaging out of response to being hit by something is beneficial when playing D/D considering you need to then burn something else to get back into the fight, and your range options are usually outmatched when taking into account range and damage dealt vs damage taken as % hp. It basically amounts solely to holosmith and power hammer warrior since they'll one-combo-kill you. But realistically speaking, D/D isn't the kit that's killing a holo; it has way too much burst damage negation to make optimizing around utilities worthwhile, and hammer warrior isn't exactly something encountered often. Better off just trying to bait these moves and knowing to dodge them.

Big numbers are still available without SoS as well, but then you start getting into territory where you have no bonus movespeed options outside of 50% uptime (at best) on ToTC. This is a pretty big deal when you live and die by being able to stick to your target to land CnD for both your damage and defense, and also when you have no OOC stealth to roam safer or simply just to avoid being pressured; if you do not land CnD when you need to, you die or waste 5 initiative - Anyone with permaswiftness can just engage on you and you have no answers either. In a lot of cases when playing aggressively, SoS isn't worth burning at the start of a fight for the opening burst, but rather used instead after they use their immunities/defenses/etc. since Mug/CnD damage will usually trigger some kind of passive or response from the enemy as it is, negating the boosted backstab and also timing out your swiftness from ToTC leaving you with downtime where you can't mantain aggression. Again, also depending on matchups, something like a mesmer, spellbreaker, or another thief can also just steal your swiftness at the onset of the fight and render you useless and unable to even hit a CnD until that full 20s when Steal becomes available again, so I find myself using SoS most-effectively for its blind in order to negate such CC or the subsequent lethal damage in the first place, since it has absolutely zero cast time and can foil multiple targets' coordination efforts.

Maybe it's just because I have so much experience with the setup, but while D/D is playable (barely) without going for a huge OHKO build with signets, I don't think it's worth playing outside of the signets when playing D/D as a OHKO burst build featured around huge critical hits (assuming Assassin's Signet is part of that), just because I think the loss of the one utility slot to fill a lot of the gaps in the burst build due to Assassin's Signet is absolutely massive, and most of the utilities do not solve these weaknesses except in matchup-specific ways.

If DB was a movement skill, this whole conversation ends - Shadowstep and RFI 100% become the way to play the kit since it would then have a reliable engage tool.

Interesting thoughts. Have you played the DE stealth build with D/D? I used that with assassin signet SS and RFI for a while, I found it had some major advantages over D/P considering I was using it as an execution set anyways so I was hardly ever using shadow shot. Death blossom becomes a nice way to build malice when close quarters or revealed (baiting warriors with it is pretty effective) or avoid a hit on a spec that lacks dodges in general. The stolen skills with 5 malice means you're not always forced to go melee for a stealth from cloak and dagger, which made playing around groups much easier. Rifle offers a lot of utility that shortbow lacks, and the range combined with shadowstep makes killing an enemy that survived a backstab much easier. Damage wise, you often don't need cloak and dagger, 20-30k stabs are common with malice buildup. It requires a bit more setup sure, but it has a lot of perks over core D/D for sure.

It my opinion that too many focus on raw damage and in particular when going the DE route to take advantage of Malicious backstab. I feel that the theif going that route has some room to give up damage for some other aspect of a build that can better help with the sets weakness. Just as example while I have not tried it , I am thinking Runes of Speed on a DE build using d/d might work very well as this addresses one of the single largest issues with the set and that engage/disengage.

Oh definitely, I got bored of malicious backstab a while ago actually, it's way too rock paper scissors for my taste. My preferred build at the moment is S/P rifle DE with dura runes and a mix of marauder, soldier and cavalier gear, 20k health, 2.6k armor etc. DE really lends itself to tanky boon builds rather well, I like that it can't really be one shot with the dura rune proc which allows me to run pain response over instant reflexes. It focuses on stealing boons and quickness uptime, pistol whips and DJ hit for 10k and that's enough for me to kill most things in combination with binding shadows etc. I'm mostly wondering whether Deceiver has tried DE much, I know he dislikes rifle on a thematic level and plays classes other than thief at the moment though.

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Typical anet dumbing down the game in response to the QQers. I think we need more passive defenses still.Assassin's signet doesn't even compare to signet of might. I'll take 5s of unblockable over the crap we have. rangers and even warriors with their unblockable does "1shot" alot better

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