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Why Take A Game Mode (WvW) Seriously... When It Is So Casual?


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I'm a pretty serious player... at least I tend to lean more on that side; then that of a casual player. I don't really have anything against casual players... This is just my way of having fun. Also, I think it's good not to take things too seriously alllll the time. I just generally I like to try achieve more meaning in whatever I'm doing... because that typically is how I experience my fun.

PvP can be fun. Though, I have more fun in WvW as I don't feel glued to points. Or attracted to them more or less like a magnet. I can just focus on killing more so. So my favorite map tends to be https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Courtyard. This is a large part of the reason I Roam and part of the reason I enjoy WvW much much more than PvP. Beside's the typical more build diversity WvW tends to offer. I just wanna kill people with little or no strings attached generally. That's about as simple as it get's for me.

In WvW I have come back after had been playing 6 years before (after PoF Cancer). And I'm generally enjoying it to be honest. Just because quite a few things seem OP in their own respects. It is as if they cancel each other out more or less. Just a general observation is all. Point is... I'm having more fun now than I did with PoF. So what's the real issue?...

Well, I just can't seem to find significant meaning in WvW. It's just wayyy toooo casual.

  • When I see K-Trains... I see people farming a map. Not playing WvW IMO.
  • When I see a Server Win a Match. I see another fight as the reward (if one wishes to call it that); as opposed to an Actual Reward. Win or Lose. I get why mainly due to Transfers. Though, this doesn't create an excuse for this feeling to go away. Therefore, I feel No Risk. Thus, I feel an Incredibly Low Incentive to take any given match, seriously.
  • I could write more, but I will leave this video to save space. As I agree with the vast majority of this guys points anyways. The part at which he starts talking about WvW happens soon after the 5:50 mark. Watch all of it if you wish. Anyways, here it is...

So it's like this... WvW can be fun more or less. Though, that "fun" get's extremely risky with balance. Also, even with nice balance I can't find any incentives coming from the WvW for me to take it seriously. So, as a result... I just gave up hopes on balance. I just don't get excited about it in the slightest. I'm not saying don't complain... it's just I realized that's all there really is at the end of the day. Is balance. Even if balance was bad I would play more if I had incentive's to do so. Right now... my friends are my only incentives. And even I have/we each have our personal limit's more or less unique to each other. Though, they are not a product of WvW. I'm looking for incentives to play more seriously coming straight from the mouth of WvW. Or at least having the option to do so. If one could exist.

Anyways, The point is WvW seems to overly cater to this casual playstyle. Which again, I don't mind existing. Though, at the same time I'm over here like... "Ok... Can I/More Serious players get some food in our mouths too? Is that really so wrong or something?

That said, Serious player's take WvW to a different, yet more caring and therefore higher meaning of Importance. That the more casual crowd doesn't offer. Not to say they aren't important as well. As I touched on at the top of the post. To put it simply. Also, All I'm saying besides that is... It would be nice If I/We actually felt like what we did, mattered.

To End here... Answer the Title if you wish. Not looking to cause problems or argue nonsense. Just something I needed to get off my chest in some way. Peace.

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If you're playing WvW for the material rewards, you're doing it wrong. Any other game mode is more profitable.

Functioning well as part of a team and getting quality fights are the main rewards of WvW, IMO. So how seriously you should take it is going to depend on what you want to get out of it.

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@"Optimator.3589" said:If you're playing WvW for the material rewards, you're doing it wrong. Any other game mode is more profitable.

Functioning well as part of a team and getting quality fights are the main rewards of WvW, IMO. So how seriously you should take it is going to depend on what you want to get out of it.

I would agree with this. Which is why I put that bit about K-Training before. Though, that is not what I'm after. If I wanted that I would just go do that.I'm looking for some form of recognition for my effort's that should matter for example... Winning a match. Also like I touched on. I don't want to just be rewarded for participating. I want to be rewarded for succeeding. And right now, I just feel rewarding for participating.

It's like this... If I were to study hard for a test and I got an "A+". I would feel rewarded. Now suppose the teacher pretty much handed out all A+'s to everyone (even those that didn't study). It wouldn't feel as rewarding for my effort's. This is what (on a basic level) I'm talking about. This is how it feels playing WvW. I cannot feel truly rewarded unless there is some great risk involved. Like the risk of failing. Much like this Example.

It's just I can't rely on quality because it's not always present because primarily debatable balance issues. Though, I agree with what you're basically saying. It's just not what I'm referring to.

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Meaning is entirely subjective. Video games are a form of interactive art. Whether you happen to find meaning in one type of art or another is entirely up to your personal taste. You and I could look at a painting or listen to a symphony and both of us could walk away with entirely different takes on the meaning and significance of each piece and we would both be right. So it is with video games. If you do not find any meaning in playing gw2 then that's fine maybe it's just not the right game for you.

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The reason, why I dont take this video too serious:

6:30 „but then u start to realize, that, besides just meaningless fun and fighting for the sake of it, theres really no stakes in GW2s WvWvW“

„meaningless fun“ . . . oh-kaay

Sure, he has some points, e.g. „too much focus on damage“, but thats already discussed in lots of threads, though.

GW2 = casual game, thats true, with sPvP as a competitive option, and WvW somewhere in between these two. With that in mind, theres a huge arsenal of builds, one can play in WvW. I'd call that „content“, exploring, over and over again, how to kill enemies and teamplaying with mates in new styles. But from a competitive prespective, build diversity is limited. Its like buying Bob Ross's „Joy of painting“-paint set home edition, and just use red, because its your favorite colour.

Maybe, one could take it as it is, a RPG, make new chars and builds, over and over again, explore new playstyles. These might be not as efficient as the current cookie-cutter Meta builds around, but there lies the challenge, I guess. Especially, because WvW is only some kind of semi-competitive, if at all, one would meet a lot of opportunities, to make this work. Make unique characters, with unique builds, an see, how many Meta newbs you can slaughter . . . and make a YT video, of course ;)

Might not be competitive, but still challenging.

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You have a good point OP.What are we fighting for?

Server pride?Server pride is long gone due to the relinks and transfers giving a totally different look to servers every couple of months.You could be allies with server A this link and helped them win Tier 1 but become enemies the next relink and wonder what you've been fighting for.Alliances would lead to the same issue with a mix and mash of alliances/guilds every refresh.

Rewards for winning?There are almost no significant rewards for placing first in your tier and none whatsoever when you climb tiers.In fact, your reward for winning your tier is to get beaten back down the next week by two other servers with more coverage.

Guild pride?Honestly, this is the only thing I see still alive. Barely.And the game really needs to cater for a guild ladder system / leader board that crowns a winner with rewards and refreshes itself every few months.They could be scored through a variety of ways like KDR, PPT etc. and give meaning for fighting.

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Sounds like you need to find a WvW guild. Just running about alone, no matter the build or skill, not much difference can be made on your own. GvG's are indeed the endgame when it comes to WvW, it's what drives the meta and where you get your fill of action. Then the rest of the time is simply practice.

Even though most WvW guilds do GvG's exclusively, you can definitely make an impact on the server you are with if you choose to do so and make a name for yourselves.

For instance, we had 1 such fight guild on my original server, and they could always be relied on to come help defend a structure when they were raiding, no matter the enemy number. Having that stability boosted our confidence and allowed us to go for fights we normally would not handle and group up before calling for aid just so we knew we'd done all we could, and it strengthened us as a community.

What you do and how you do it matters. Less now with links and bandwagons, but still guilds prevail. And judging by your wording, this is exactly what you're looking for. Raids 3 times a week or more, optimized comps, profession training and most importantly - winning fights whilst having fun.

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@rng.1024 said:Sounds like you need to find a WvW guild. Just running about alone, no matter the build or skill, not much difference can be made on your own. GvG's are indeed the endgame when it comes to WvW, it's what drives the meta and where you get your fill of action. Then the rest of the time is simply practice.

Even though most WvW guilds do GvG's exclusively, you can definitely make an impact on the server you are with if you choose to do so and make a name for yourselves.

For instance, we had 1 such fight guild on my original server, and they could always be relied on to come help defend a structure when they were raiding, no matter the enemy number. Having that stability boosted our confidence and allowed us to go for fights we normally would not handle and group up before calling for aid just so we knew we'd done all we could, and it strengthened us as a community.

What you do and how you do it matters. Less now with links and bandwagons, but still guilds prevail. And judging by your wording, this is exactly what you're looking for. Raids 3 times a week or more, optimized comps, profession training and most importantly - winning fights whilst having fun.

Ill have to agree here. Find a guild, whole of wvw changes when you do.

With gvgs you get competition and with friends you can fool around in wvw. Really changes the gamemode. Wvw is actually most tightly knit community in the game.

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If anet ever implements some kind of proper gvg mode, I hope they can do it in it's own instance (not affected by blob lag) or somewhere where a dialogue can be opened and participants can enter their groups. For now in terms of wvw being casual or serious, we make our own fun, that's the gist of it. When a new player enters wvw, it's like we throw them into the fire or a Lions den where they have no clue, and it takes time for them to adjust, and this learning curve is hard for many who just want to enjoy (and that's basically where zerging comes in). Wvw guild's need a better way to expose themselves without having to spam in chat and possibly list whether they are casual or hardcore raid types. Also I think there should be a way for people to see a list of enemy guild's on other servers so they can see who they are up against in their matchups. This kind of info would be more interesting for every matchup I think. Maybe on the window that shows enemy guild's, other guild's can issue gvg duel and the other guild can decide to accept/deny and enter number of participants. Just ideas anyway.

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@SkyShroud.2865 said:Nowadays, meaningful pvp in modern mmorpg are mostly only found on eastern releases but everyone should know eastern titles often come with heavy p2w elements.

@LetoII.3782 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Nowadays, meaningful pvp in modern mmorpg are mostly only found on eastern releases but everyone should know eastern titles often come with heavy p2w elements.

Most of us do know.Hence the cavalcade of belly-flops.

Oh, and don't forget the life consuming grinds

This is why I stopped playing BDO after about a month or so. Beautiful game ruined by No Life Grind and P2W elements.GW2 is about as good as it get's IMO still.

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@Warkind.6745 said:The fun is finding fights, and objectives like camps/keeps are the vehicle that delivers them. If the fights are too casual for you, leave the blob. You can control the size of your group in WvW.

@"Whiteout.1975" said:

PvP can be fun. Though, I have more fun in WvW as I don't feel glued to points. Or attracted to them more or less like a magnet. I can just focus on killing more so. So my favorite map tends to be https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Courtyard. This is a large part of the reason I Roam and part of the reason I enjoy WvW much much more than PvP. Beside's the typical more build diversity WvW tends to offer. I just wanna kill people with little or no strings attached generally. That's about as simple as it get's for me.

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@"Israel.7056" said:Meaning is entirely subjective. Video games are a form of interactive art. Whether you happen to find meaning in one type of art or another is entirely up to your personal taste. You and I could look at a painting or listen to a symphony and both of us could walk away with entirely different takes on the meaning and significance of each piece and we would both be right. So it is with video games. If you do not find any meaning in playing gw2 then that's fine maybe it's just not the right game for you.

Yea, I realize this already... This is not what I'm talking about though. What I'm talking about is the importance of the these 2 generalized ways of playing and how WvW caters to one way (Casual) significantly more than the other (Serious). And "if we are both right" in regards to the meanings behind our individual rights to being considered generally "Casual" or "Serious". Then this is exactly why being able to play Serious should matter at least nearly as much as being able to play Casual. Therefore, I attempted to demonstrate why it's incredibly hard to take this mode seriously because of the lack of incentives. Coming from WvW, specifically, to do so. If there is no real Risk. Rewards surrounding it feel less valuable.

Now, in regards to your last sentence. I've played for 6 Years... 6. That should count for something. So it's not a matter of simply if GW2 isn't the game for me and other's with a more serious attitude. It's a matter of realizing a certain audience (the generalized Serious player base). And understanding the lack of appeal WvW has on them and why... as much as it is important to understand ways WvW appeals to them as well (or could appeal). Now, I tried to demonstrate this a little bit, personally in this post. Also, through the eye's of another Serious player via video. Though, I cannot speak for each individual who is more or less Serious personally... I don't think anyone person could for the Casual side ether. However, I can at least lay some valid reasoning's as to why it's incredibly hard to take WvW Seriously. Despite one's general enjoyment in leaning towards a more serious attitude.

Anyways that's it really. This is about understanding the importance of a generalized meaning (to be serious) while still acknowledging another (to be causal). Not who is right or wrong about it. And from there understanding that because currently WvW appeal's much lesser to one audience (the serious). WvW cannot hold as much meaning for itself. Without the serious players who would otherwise give their more or less unique meanings to it. In regards to taking it more seriously.

If your (Anet/WvW's) goal is truely not attract a specific general audience (the serious). Expect less of that audience. Just how it is. And if that is the goal... then I for one rather not waste anymore of my time. All things considered... This is why this is important as much as it should be for Anet IMO.

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@"Whiteout.1975" said:Yea, I realize this already... This is not what I'm talking about though. What I'm talking about is the importance of the these 2 generalized ways of playing and how WvW caters to one way (Casual) significantly more than the other (Serious). And "if we are both right" in regards to the meanings behind our individual rights to being considered generally "Casual" or "Serious". Then this is exactly why being able to play Serious should matter at least nearly as much as being able to play Casual. Therefore, I attempted to demonstrate why it's incredibly hard to take this mode seriously because of the lack of incentives. Coming from WvW, specifically, to do so. If there is no real Risk. Rewards surrounding it feel less valuable.

What sort of rewards/incentives are you looking for specifically?

Now, in regards to your last sentence. I've played for 6 Years... 6. That should count for something. So it's not a matter of simply if GW2 isn't the game for me and other's with a more serious attitude. It's a matter of realizing a certain audience (the generalized Serious player base). And understanding the lack of appeal WvW has on them and why... as much as it is important to understand ways WvW appeals to them as well (or could appeal). Now, I tried to demonstrate this a little bit, personally in this post. Also, through the eye's of another Serious player via video. Though, I cannot speak for each individual who is more or less Serious personally... I don't think anyone person could for the Casual side ether. However, I can at least lay some valid reasoning's as to why it's incredibly hard to take WvW Seriously. Despite one's general enjoyment in leaning towards a more serious attitude.

I've been playing 6 years too. To me the reward has been the experience I've had playing the game.

Reading between the lines here a bit are you talking about the lack of gvg as an official game mode?

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@Israel.7056 said:

@"Whiteout.1975" said:Yea, I realize this already... This is not what I'm talking about though. What I'm talking about is
the importance
of the these 2 generalized ways of playing and how WvW caters to one way (Casual)
significantly
more than the other (Serious). And "if we are both right" in regards to the meanings behind our individual rights to being considered generally "Casual" or "Serious". Then this is exactly why being able to play Serious should matter at least nearly as much as being able to play Casual. Therefore, I attempted to demonstrate
why it's incredibly hard to take this mode seriously
because of the lack of incentives. Coming from WvW, specifically, to do so. If there is no real Risk. Rewards surrounding it feel less valuable.

What sort of rewards/incentives are you looking for specifically?

Well, first let me restate I'm looking for rewards in relation to Risk in general. So as long as that condition is met... chances are I will take a liking to it. So, it should be an actual Risk Vs Reward Incentive.

  • It's like this. A game of checker's can be fun for any given amount of time unique to the individuals playing it. That varies based on how they feel in regards to it on any given day. Though, if you Add $50 or even maybe as little as $10 to that game of checkers. Chances are both individuals will play for longer and take it more seriously in order to try to win that prize. If you lose you don't get that winning prize obviously. Though, maybe you get a consolation prize (Which I would prefer) and instead of $50 you got the $10 instead. This is the idea of the Risk vs Reward incentive I'm talking about basically.

Now, for actual rewards/incentives... I'm looking for rewards that are unique enough to give me and other's alike (Most likely the Vets that actually realize winning or losing a match doesn't really mean much) "incentive" to strive to win said matches. So the rewards are the incentive basically. Giving me/others much greater reason to strive to be more serious about said match.

However, with that said. I will only offer 1 Idea (because this would otherwise be too lengthy) around what I would like to have as a reward/incentive personally. And maybe some others can relate to some degree. So here I go...

  • WvW/GvG Trophies: This would be something that could be a unique reward. Simply having the option to be able to win a unique trophy that money can't buy. That the participants involved each get. With a Bronze - Gold Recognition System (Not much different from teams IRL) in regards to these Trophies colors. That would Identify at face value what place they came in to those that own it. Then if @Anet would (preferably) like to make it Nicer and more Unique... Have an option to interact with the trophies that list the participant's WvW guild and maybe alliance too if possible (Since Alliance's will be a thing). And... if you're not in one or ether. You would just get a trophy with your name on it and the color still to represent the place you came in. Also... include the date on these trophies on which these trophies were distributed (and maybe season if that's a thing?). This way these trophies would each be unique assuming they all generally look the same at least. Time after time... year after year. Now... to take this general idea and mold in around said match (the difference of WvW vs GvG match's, etc.) in respect to it. Is the actual goal here regarding them.

  • Now, how should the trophies come into play? In what form? Well, IMO trophies should come in the form of a gizmo and guild hall decoration. For the personal gizmo/trophy I would imagine it as a chair (Throne) example: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bench_of_the_Final_Judge that still symbolizes (like discussed above) the WvW guild from which you earned it (if possible). Considering all else previously mentioned. Now, in regards to the guild hall decoration... It would still strive for the same general characteristics. Though, it would look more like an actual trophy/statue. That of which would be inherently taken in by the guild from which you earned it at the time. All things considered.

  • Lastly, The "step-up" (even more unique) version of this idea. Would be if the guild hall trophy at least. Could physically mimic the symbol of said Guild in 3D. If it was all one color like all Silver or Gold. I wouldn't mind. Though, if it was say... only the base (stand) of the trophy the carried the "rank/place color" (Bronze, Silver Gold) while the actual symbol carried the guild colors associated with it. That would be cool too IMO.

So there you have it man @Israel.7056. This is my idea of what 1 reward/incentive would be IMO. As well as ways of making it more unique. From its most infant state to a much higher state of being. Now, as far as other ideas go. I'm sure there are some to be surrounded by things like Gold, Material's and maybe even special titles in game... hint hint ;) I just chose this idea because I figured I could speak more on it. Despite its genuine interest upon me.

Now, in regards to your last sentence. I've played for
6
Years... 6. That should count for something. So it's not a matter of simply
if
GW2 isn't the game for me and other's with a more serious attitude. It's a matter of realizing a certain audience (the generalized Serious player base). And understanding the lack of appeal WvW has on them and why... as much as it is important to understand ways WvW appeals to them as well (or could appeal). Now, I tried to demonstrate this a little bit, personally in this post. Also, through the eye's of another Serious player via video. Though, I cannot speak for each individual who is more or less Serious personally... I don't think anyone person could for the Casual side ether. However, I can at least lay some valid reasoning's as to why it's incredibly hard to take WvW Seriously. Despite one's general enjoyment in leaning towards a more serious attitude.

I've been playing 6 years too. To me the reward has been the experience I've had playing the game.

Reading between the lines here a bit are you talking about the lack of gvg as an official game mode?

Cool man. I'm glad you feel rewarded with your experience.I wish I could say the same. The best I could say in regards to myself, is I found my experience involving WvW, to be a risk. Due to balance. Some days it good, other's not so much. Some Month's it' good. Other's bad. It just would seem to me over these past few years (primarily since HoT) its overstayed it's welcome far to many times on the bad side of the experience in my book unfortunately.

Anyways, Yes, though not specifically limited to GvG's (like discussed). More like in consideration of as well.

That said. I'll leave you with this from one veteran to another... "It is one thing perhaps to be recognized by a community, player or small set of players... random people on internet, etc. However, it's a whole other to be recognized by the actual game you play... That what you do matters." That is what I'm after in regards to WvW.

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@EremiteAngel.9765 said:You have a good point OP.What are we fighting for?

Server pride?Server pride is long gone due to the relinks and transfers giving a totally different look to servers every couple of months.You could be allies with server A this link and helped them win Tier 1 but become enemies the next relink and wonder what you've been fighting for.Alliances would lead to the same issue with a mix and mash of alliances/guilds every refresh.

Rewards for winning?There are almost no significant rewards for placing first in your tier and none whatsoever when you climb tiers.In fact, your reward for winning your tier is to get beaten back down the next week by two other servers with more coverage.

Guild pride?Honestly, this is the only thing I see still alive. Barely.And the game really needs to cater for a guild ladder system / leader board that crowns a winner with rewards and refreshes itself every few months.They could be scored through a variety of ways like KDR, PPT etc. and give meaning for fighting.

Thank You @EremiteAngel.9765. I agree, these are all great things to consider :)

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  • 3 weeks later...

@"Whiteout.1975" said:I'm a pretty serious player... at least I tend to lean more on that side; then that of a casual player. I don't really have anything against casual players... This is just my way of having fun. Also, I think it's good not to take things too seriously alllll the time. I just generally I like to try achieve more meaning in whatever I'm doing... because that typically is how I experience my fun.

PvP can be fun. Though, I have more fun in WvW as I don't feel glued to points. Or attracted to them more or less like a magnet. I can just focus on killing more so. So my favorite map tends to be https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Courtyard. This is a large part of the reason I Roam and part of the reason I enjoy WvW much much more than PvP. Beside's the typical more build diversity WvW tends to offer. I just wanna kill people with little or no strings attached generally. That's about as simple as it get's for me.

In WvW I have come back after had been playing 6 years before (after PoF Cancer). And I'm generally enjoying it to be honest. Just because quite a few things seem OP in their own respects. It is as if they cancel each other out more or less. Just a general observation is all. Point is... I'm having more fun now than I did with PoF. So what's the real issue?...

Well, I just can't seem to find significant meaning in WvW. It's just wayyy toooo casual.

  • When I see K-Trains... I see people farming a map. Not playing WvW IMO.
  • When I see a Server Win a Match. I see another fight as the reward (if one wishes to call it that); as opposed to an Actual Reward. Win or Lose. I get why mainly due to Transfers. Though, this doesn't create an excuse for this feeling to go away. Therefore, I feel No Risk. Thus, I feel an Incredibly Low Incentive to take any given match, seriously.
  • I could write more, but I will leave this video to save space. As I agree with the vast majority of this guys points anyways. The part at which he starts talking about WvW happens soon after the 5:50 mark. Watch all of it if you wish. Anyways, here it is...

So it's like this... WvW can be fun more or less. Though, that "fun" get's extremely risky with balance. Also, even with nice balance I can't find any incentives coming from the WvW for me to take it seriously. So, as a result... I just gave up hopes on balance. I just don't get excited about it in the slightest. I'm not saying don't complain... it's just I realized that's all there really is at the end of the day. Is balance. Even if balance was bad I would play more if I had incentive's to do so. Right now... my friends are my only incentives. And even I have/we each have our personal limit's more or less unique to each other. Though, they are not a product of WvW. I'm looking for incentives to play more seriously coming straight from the mouth of WvW. Or at least having the option to do so. If one could exist.

Anyways, The point is WvW seems to overly cater to this casual playstyle. Which again, I don't mind existing. Though, at the same time I'm over here like... "Ok... Can I/More Serious players get some food in our mouths too? Is that really so wrong or something?

That said, Serious player's take WvW to a different, yet more caring and therefore higher meaning of Importance. That the more casual crowd doesn't offer. Not to say they aren't important as well. As I touched on at the top of the post. To put it simply. Also, All I'm saying besides that is... It would be nice If I/We actually felt like what we did, mattered.

To End here... Answer the Title if you wish. Not looking to cause problems or argue nonsense. Just something I needed to get off my chest in some way. Peace.

If you want to play as a small organized group and get good fights preferably outnumbered then WvW is the only option in gw2 and gw2 is the better of two bad options.

Hence if that's the kinda gameplay you're hooked on you naturally care about WvW a lot as you have so few other options.

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Maybe it's because little skill and coordination is required to succeed in team play in WvW right now. In other words, who ever shows up with the most players on the right classes wins. There are no clutch plays, no player skill dependence for rewarding skill chains, etc.

Show up, mash keys, win -- and your reward is not running back from spawn.

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Winning is serious business, regardless of how little "they" say it matters and how much "they" try to convince us it doesn't matter, it's a ruse an illusion, winning very much matters.

If it didn't matter, "good fights" would be even fights every time, not modified and clipped together YT videos showing the "skill" of one server while conveniently ignoring the fact there are 30 additional pugs not in the "fight" squad paired against the defenders you can count on maybe both hands and sometimes a foot, plus the 10+ 3rd server guys looking for "fights" at the north end of an objective where some spy has already pulled all the tacts where the "fight" took place.

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@juno.1840 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:Why get srsbsns about any video game?It's a tremendous waste of time and effort.Your mom isn't going to be any more impressed if it's got an Esports presence.

If you read the wall of text again, the OP is essentially stating WvW is not as fun because you don't actually have to try that hard. It's turned into a causal play mode which requires almost no skill. When the OP does win, it doesn't feel rewarding.

At least that's how I read it lol... which means I'm probably butchered it horribly.

I see that as self-aggrandizementIf it were really that easy there'd be far less skill gap than there isHe also said this

@Whiteout.1975 said:GW2 is about as good as it get's IMO still.

I've played full-loot PvP games before, also paid dearly for getting far, faaaarrr too into ladder rankings in other games.Rewards are for things that are actually rewarding.. Like a jobGames are for fun

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