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Conditions Need to be maneged..


hmd.5719

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Guys.. I see that conditions are the main mistake in gw2 ... it makes the game so silly .. am not againest te idea of condi but it has to be organized , for example it must be for specific class or 2 .. now we can see that allllll classes has a build of condi which is insane and totally wrong .. I see we should have that in necro only and decrease the amount of skills that removes condi too ..

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Conditions should be available to all diff classes, tho i feel like with their direction on boons conditions should also be more limited per class.

Furthermore i dont think we get anything useful out of most conditions being dots. Gw1 was better off with most condis being debuff with few light dots and having actual skills doing dot dmg unrelated to conditions that stack up to silly numbers.

Also, i believe their choice of skills that apply condies was and still is bad. In a world where condis arent mostly strong dots and instead each was a debuff to some stat or smth tying them to aoe skills would be fine.

The thing is tho that thats not the case and over the years we havent only seen a bloat of aoe but we've also seen an overuse of aoe skills to apply damaging conditions. I think this is bad design.

So either one or the other has to change. Either scale back on the aoe overuse and promote some more st or small aoe options, or change conditions to work in majority as simple debuffs, then i think their aoe nature would be ok.

Something has to change tho i dont believe condies and aoe are in a healthy state and that might be turning off newer players.

Btw, i think a pass on all animations and effects would go a long way in updating the game visually and making it more accesible and readable.

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@"hmd.5719" said:Guys.. I see that conditions are the main mistake in gw2 ... it makes the game so silly .. am not againest te idea of condi but it has to be organized , for example it must be for specific class or 2 .. now we can see that allllll classes has a build of condi which is insane and totally wrong .. I see we should have that in necro only and decrease the amount of skills that removes condi too ..

Conditions are bad, mmmkay? Seriously, that's all you got? You don't want to tell us why every class having a condi build is "insane and totally wrong"? It must be some sort of universal truth, huh?

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@zealex.9410 said:Conditions should be available to all diff classes, tho i feel like with their direction on boons conditions should also be more limited per class.

Furthermore i dont think we get anything useful out of most conditions being dots. Gw1 was better off with most condis being debuff with few light dots and having actual skills doing dot dmg unrelated to conditions that stack up to silly numbers.

Also, i believe their choice of skills that apply condies was and still is bad. In a world where condis arent mostly strong dots and instead each was a debuff to some stat or smth tying them to aoe skills would be fine.

The thing is tho that thats not the case and over the years we havent only seen a bloat of aoe but we've also seen an overuse of aoe skills to apply damaging conditions. I think this is bad design.

So either one or the other has to change. Either scale back on the aoe overuse and promote some more st or small aoe options, or change conditions to work in majority as simple debuffs, then i think their aoe nature would be ok.

Something has to change tho i dont believe condies and aoe are in a healthy state and that might be turning off newer players.

Btw, i think a pass on all animations and effects would go a long way in updating the game visually and making it more accesible and readable.

What is so bad about it? I really don't get it. We have condition cleanses, we have numerous ways to avoid/prevent attacks. In a team scenario we even have classes with area condi cleanses. I made platinum in PvP playing a Tempest auramancer whose primary purpose was to heal, cleanse, and apply boons to allies. In WvW my condi mirage is useless in a zerg because of how heavy the area cleansing is. Is it just bad in 1v1 and small scale fights because some players can't be bothered to build correctly to address condi and put too much faith in passives that counter power damage? Is that it?

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@hmd.5719 said:Guys.. I see that conditions are the main mistake in gw2 ... it makes the game so silly .. am not againest te idea of condi but it has to be organized , for example it must be for specific class or 2 .. now we can see that allllll classes has a build of condi which is insane and totally wrong .. I see we should have that in necro only and decrease the amount of skills that removes condi too ..

cool, were did you see that?

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@Algreg.3629 said:

@hmd.5719 said:Guys.. I see that conditions are the main mistake in gw2 ... it makes the game so silly .. am not againest te idea of condi but it has to be organized , for example it must be for specific class or 2 .. now we can see that allllll classes has a build of condi which is insane and totally wrong .. I see we should have that in necro only and decrease the amount of skills that removes condi too ..

cool, were did you see that?

Reddit, probably. They have similar spelling.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Conditions should be available to all diff classes, tho i feel like with their direction on boons conditions should also be more limited per class.

Furthermore i dont think we get anything useful out of most conditions being dots. Gw1 was better off with most condis being debuff with few light dots and having actual skills doing dot dmg unrelated to conditions that stack up to silly numbers.

Also, i believe their choice of skills that apply condies was and still is bad. In a world where condis arent mostly strong dots and instead each was a debuff to some stat or smth tying them to aoe skills would be fine.

The thing is tho that thats not the case and over the years we havent only seen a bloat of aoe but we've also seen an overuse of aoe skills to apply damaging conditions. I think this is bad design.

So either one or the other has to change. Either scale back on the aoe overuse and promote some more st or small aoe options, or change conditions to work in majority as simple debuffs, then i think their aoe nature would be ok.

Something has to change tho i dont believe condies and aoe are in a healthy state and that might be turning off newer players.

Btw, i think a pass on all animations and effects would go a long way in updating the game visually and making it more accesible and readable.

What is so bad about it? I really don't get it. We have condition cleanses, we have numerous ways to avoid/prevent attacks. In a team scenario we even have classes with area condi cleanses. I made platinum in PvP playing a Tempest auramancer whose primary purpose was to heal, cleanse, and apply boons to allies. In WvW my condi mirage is useless in a zerg because of how heavy the area cleansing is. Is it just bad in 1v1 and small scale fights because some players can't be bothered to build correctly to address condi and put too much faith in passives that counter power damage? Is that it?

The main problem with every condition and boon model they've used thus far suffers from the same underlying problem with how the game handles Damage....... basically the overall design leads to massive scaling problem across game modes. WvW sees both extreme ends of this problem, due to the fact that parallel application can't be mitigated outside of a few flat immunity effects (because any stack based defense can be overwhelmed in short order by stacking attacks). And those immunities are usually the most complained about thing in both WvW and PvP, precisely because its the ONLY thing that properly scales with any given combat scenario.

Thats also why you decided to use 2 different game modes to complain about the same problem from both sides, since you can't effectively make that argument in just one. You try to blame it on the builds people run, but fail to acknowledge that Anet has consciously forced mutual exclusion between offense and defense over multiple reworks. You also ignore that fact that offensive builds will generally win by default, because a defensive build can only (at best) stymie their opponent. But since individual defense has a finite limit, but group offensive power can stack infinitely, the threat level of any enemy comp revolves entirely around the power bands of their damage output. Group defense is also inconsistent with how some things are mitigation, while other can be outright nullification. Hence why sPvP and WvW (and raids and fractals for that matter) will wildly differ in how they value a specific effect.

I know for fact a lot of PvPs try to avoid this argument, precisely because acknowledging it also means acknowledging their ability to navigate this broken system is where their advantage comes from. Its Anet's inability to pin down this scaling problem is what causes them to attack the meta directly, instead of reigning in specific outliers. It may also be why they choose to cripple a Core Trait because of an Espec, rather then address the Espec's behavior. Consider what happened with Deadeye's Malice system and Stealth. Individually they were broken. But when coupled they were just as broken in a different way, and required to double down on stealth access (what started the whole thing) to maintain its functionality. DE exemplifies the entire philosophy of this game's underlying scaling problem, as its a class built around scaling only one direction, with a espec designed specifically to push those even further in that one direction. Daredevil wasn't anywhere near as big a problem, since its only major change was more reliable damage output.

Mesmer represents an almost polar opposite problem, where its duelist core design gives it unparalleled defenses, that only the most dedicated builds can hope to shut down. This aspect of its design is what lead to role compression in Chornotank, and Mirage doubled down by making it almost immune to shut downs, while bolstering its offensive power. Its this game's Genji dilemma; where the skill cap goes high enough over every other class, that nothing can properly compete against it at that level. Mesmer has no real middle ground for player skill, since mastery is vital to its viability. Yet another good example of scaling issues at work.

Scaling has ALWAYS been a problem due to the proliferation of AOE, Cleave damage, and otherwise indiscriminate targeting. However, HOT especs pushed up the power band to level the playing field with classes by making sure they all have a strong damage build. But POF Especs went completely ape shit with scaling, as nearly every single one of them is designed as a "sustainable" function. Firebrands have sustainable support via tomes, Deadeyes had sustained debuffs, Mirages can sustain action, Spell Breakers can continuously nullify boons , Revs had a sustained damage buffs (which it originally could share), Soulbeast focused on sustained damage output, Holo has a more streamlined damage rotation, Scourge had long lived area denial/control, and Weaver trying to push more diverse rotations and greater APM.

The problem with this was the fact that this doesn't address the scaling problem, but actively leaned into it. And despite being focused mostly on sustained actions, we figured out how to convert most into burst builds. This put even greater pressure on supports to counter both high front loaded damage AND frequent application. And despite their ability to do high Yield healing/cleaning in bursts, both Tempest and Druid neither couldn't maintain that beyond a few seconds. Which left firebrand as the go-to condition management build, since it can safely maintain that over the course of 10+ seconds.

You can trace the vast majority of build diversity and meta trends based on how they scale in practice. Especially between game modes, where the force multipliers (and consequently the group comps) are handled differently in each.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Conditions should be available to all diff classes, tho i feel like with their direction on boons conditions should also be more limited per class.

Furthermore i dont think we get anything useful out of most conditions being dots. Gw1 was better off with most condis being debuff with few light dots and having actual skills doing dot dmg unrelated to conditions that stack up to silly numbers.

Also, i believe their choice of skills that apply condies was and still is bad. In a world where condis arent mostly strong dots and instead each was a debuff to some stat or smth tying them to aoe skills would be fine.

The thing is tho that thats not the case and over the years we havent only seen a bloat of aoe but we've also seen an overuse of aoe skills to apply damaging conditions. I think this is bad design.

So either one or the other has to change. Either scale back on the aoe overuse and promote some more st or small aoe options, or change conditions to work in majority as simple debuffs, then i think their aoe nature would be ok.

Something has to change tho i dont believe condies and aoe are in a healthy state and that might be turning off newer players.

Btw, i think a pass on all animations and effects would go a long way in updating the game visually and making it more accesible and readable.

What is so bad about it? I really don't get it. We have condition cleanses, we have numerous ways to avoid/prevent attacks. In a team scenario we even have classes with area condi cleanses. I made platinum in PvP playing a Tempest auramancer whose primary purpose was to heal, cleanse, and apply boons to allies. In WvW my condi mirage is useless in a zerg because of how heavy the area cleansing is. Is it just bad in 1v1 and small scale fights because some players can't be bothered to build correctly to address condi and put too much faith in passives that counter power damage? Is that it?

No i just think it could be done better and in a more controled way. Im not comming from the pov of "reee cba to learn so ill complain till it gets nerfed"

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Conditions should be available to all diff classes, tho i feel like with their direction on boons conditions should also be more limited per class.

Furthermore i dont think we get anything useful out of most conditions being dots. Gw1 was better off with most condis being debuff with few light dots and having actual skills doing dot dmg unrelated to conditions that stack up to silly numbers.

Also, i believe their choice of skills that apply condies was and still is bad. In a world where condis arent mostly strong dots and instead each was a debuff to some stat or smth tying them to aoe skills would be fine.

The thing is tho that thats not the case and over the years we havent only seen a bloat of aoe but we've also seen an overuse of aoe skills to apply damaging conditions. I think this is bad design.

So either one or the other has to change. Either scale back on the aoe overuse and promote some more st or small aoe options, or change conditions to work in majority as simple debuffs, then i think their aoe nature would be ok.

Something has to change tho i dont believe condies and aoe are in a healthy state and that might be turning off newer players.

Btw, i think a pass on all animations and effects would go a long way in updating the game visually and making it more accesible and readable.

What is so bad about it? I really don't get it. We have condition cleanses, we have numerous ways to avoid/prevent attacks. In a team scenario we even have classes with area condi cleanses. I made platinum in PvP playing a Tempest auramancer whose primary purpose was to heal, cleanse, and apply boons to allies. In WvW my condi mirage is useless in a zerg because of how heavy the area cleansing is. Is it just bad in 1v1 and small scale fights because some players can't be bothered to build correctly to address condi and put too much faith in passives that counter power damage? Is that it?

we understand that you like the current state of condition damage.

For my point of view i wish condition damage and condition duration (Maybe make expertise scale in pvp making condition harder to remove) was more balanced. I dont have much more to say about this. I like playing my soulbeast with a short bow.

Also in pvp damage is way too high. Dying in a few second vs a necro conditioning when you remove is condition a few time and still die in 5 sec is bad someone that make a scholar build switch weapon 1 shot is also bad. PvP fight should last longer.

PvP in gw2 feel like Vanilla World of warcraft pvp where you ad people one shooting you with RNG

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@normans.8963 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Conditions should be available to all diff classes, tho i feel like with their direction on boons conditions should also be more limited per class.

Furthermore i dont think we get anything useful out of most conditions being dots. Gw1 was better off with most condis being debuff with few light dots and having actual skills doing dot dmg unrelated to conditions that stack up to silly numbers.

Also, i believe their choice of skills that apply condies was and still is bad. In a world where condis arent mostly strong dots and instead each was a debuff to some stat or smth tying them to aoe skills would be fine.

The thing is tho that thats not the case and over the years we havent only seen a bloat of aoe but we've also seen an overuse of aoe skills to apply damaging conditions. I think this is bad design.

So either one or the other has to change. Either scale back on the aoe overuse and promote some more st or small aoe options, or change conditions to work in majority as simple debuffs, then i think their aoe nature would be ok.

Something has to change tho i dont believe condies and aoe are in a healthy state and that might be turning off newer players.

Btw, i think a pass on all animations and effects would go a long way in updating the game visually and making it more accesible and readable.

What is so bad about it? I really don't get it. We have condition cleanses, we have numerous ways to avoid/prevent attacks. In a team scenario we even have classes with area condi cleanses. I made platinum in PvP playing a Tempest auramancer whose primary purpose was to heal, cleanse, and apply boons to allies. In WvW my condi mirage is useless in a zerg because of how heavy the area cleansing is. Is it just bad in 1v1 and small scale fights because some players can't be bothered to build correctly to address condi and put too much faith in passives that counter power damage? Is that it?

we understand that you like the current state of condition damage.

For my point of view i wish condition damage and condition duration was more balanced. I dont have much more to say about this. I like playing my soulbeast with a short bow.

The point of the examples was to demonstrate how both offensively and defensively condi works. The OP said every class having a condi build is "insane and totally wrong". Like I said, I don't understand that perspective. It seems to work just fine.

Now you say that condi damage and duration need to be more balanced. Care to elaborate on that? What's not balanced about it? What would bring it into balance?

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Pretty sure power is the dominant damage type right now, anyway. Aren't we currently in the era of the Boonbeast? I mean, I guess we still have Condi Mirage and Condi Scourge, but those are the only real high end condi builds available. I'd even rank Condi Mirage slightly higher atm, the main reason I ever bring my Scourge in is to help my party deal with boons (not for the conditions, they are just a nice side-benefit and are mainly caused by converting boons anyway).

This complaint feels like it belongs in Q4 2017 - Q2 2018. Maybe OP has been reading old posts?

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Currently, the main issue for conditions seems to be the non-existent distinction between damaging conditions and inhibiting conditions.Therefor I would propose to distinguish damaging conditions from inhibiting conditions, so that cleanses take away, for example one stack burn and one stack chill.Additionally, I would reduce the duration of all damaging conditions across the board and increase the damage.

I would also increase the passive defense of all classes but that´s worth its own thread.

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@"Arzurag.7506" said:Currently, the main issue for conditions seems to be the non-existent distinction between damaging conditions and inhibiting conditions.

Conditions are already split between control,damage,movement-impairing and other. There are already abilities that remove one of these specific type, most noticeably damage and movement-impairing. The reason skills don't specify more is because more often than not generic cleanse is better.

Additionally, I would reduce the duration of all damaging conditions across the board and increase the damage.The opposite of this was done last year because "conditions shouldn't be burst". People ate a bunch of attacks attacks had huge stacks on condi and wondered why they died so quickly. Some specific skills and builds were a problem but in general it wasn't so bad. There is always a huge double standard. Get wrecked by a power build? "[inser skill/class/ build here] is a problem". Get killed by a condi build? "ALL condi is op. Anyone who disagrees is / [insert insult here]. Why? Because [insert complaint about specific build or skill but still blame all conditions in general]"

No matter how weak conditions are people will always complain about them because people just do not like fighting conditions as pretty much at no point does the game actually teach you about them properly. As is stands conditions are a fairly weak damage type and a lot of the utility is lost either by defiance ruining their effects or abundant cleanse rendering them very ineffective.

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@"AliamRationem.5172" said:I'll be honest, I don't understand what you're saying here. That's a lot to say about what appears to be a range of subjects that you obviously feel are related, but I've no idea after reading it why condi is a problem.

The Cliffs notes version: Conditions as a damage vector in parity with power damage causes it to inherit all the problems associated with power damage, but applies a completely separate set of rules for mitigation. Anet wants them to be in parity for the purposes of build diversity, but the number and types of mitigation are nowhere near as effective as power damage. Power damage gets away with this due to its simplicity, and 1:1 application.

Condi was "originally" a form of pressure to tax defense resources, while Power damage was more decisive, and what the active defenses were built and balanced around. When that changed to burst damage, we were not given additional methods to mitigate this damage in parallel. As a result, we spend the same defense resources and skill slots to counter condition attacks, while conditions were given higher application rates to compensate for the window of counter play on the defensive side. Conditions could dominate because of applications outlasting defenses that can purge them, up until Resistance could upfront nullify them, followed by POF support specs being able to purge them continuously.

Damage as a model has a lot of problems, both power and condi. But what makes condi so difficult is how the devs treat their management through mutually exclusive mechanics, but act like its supposed to be in parity with Power as a damage vector. You have to understand the underlying problem of power damage as a base line to understand the context of Conditions as damage, and from that the issues that cause such violent swings in the game's meta.

Individually most of these issues are minor.... but its the level of compounding (a side effect of its design intent) that can make seemingly simple changes resulting in dramatically different outcomes. Thus on paper they make sense... but papers rarely account for the players ability to break your system using its own rules.

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Personally, my problem with condi's are that they are used to melt a target rather than punish or control them - especially in PvE, where condi's are just numbers and breakbar fodder.

@yann.1946 said:I'm really curious where the hate comes from.

It's because you can see power damage as it happens between average players running average builds. If a guy runs up to you with a Warrior greatsword, it's generally very easy to figure out when and how the guy is going to burst you and what you can do about it.

Condi damage is a bit harder to track down, as it's not always inherrently obvious when something will hit you or what you should dodge without actually playing the class yourself and reading several guides on the subject. Add to that some classes have some pretty poor condi cleanses on a longer timer than condi classes have on their skills, and you end up with some salty pvp casuals.

At least, that's my opinion as a PvP casual (who does not speak for all casuals) B)

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